OK DiverGuy--

If that is "not" what you are saying then what specific items do you recall that should be changed within Klemmer training because of problems?

Please be very specific.

According to
[perso.orange.fr]

Looks like this Brian Klemmer fellow had been involved with PSI World Seminars and then had founded something called "Personal Mastery".

PSI World Seminars was founded by Thomas Wilhite, who had belonged to Mind Dynamics. Various controversial lawsuits involving deaths and mental breakdowns shut down Mind Dynamics:
[perso.orange.fr]

And Mind Dynamics instructor Werner Erhard later founded the controversial Est Training, Werner Erhard and Associates, and later the "technology" for Landmark Education or "The Forum." Other Mind Dynamics individuals founded Lifespring, Context Trainings, Lifestream, Leadership Dynamics, PSI World Seminars, etc. All very very good at making money off of gullible individuals.

[b:1ba972be0a]Fruit of the poisoned tree ???[/b:1ba972be0a]

Diverguy, thanks for the advice on how to communicate with my friends. But just to clarify, most of them have bean thru the entire course.

And, duly noted, it does not affect everyone the same way. For instance, one of my friends who was very introverted and self conscious has becomr more confident. And I find he is very sensitive to how the "speak" comes across to us regular guys, so he lays off it when he's around me.

I would only encourage you to take a close look at how it has affected every aspect of your life......has your critical thinking been affected in any way?

Quote
felixcatski
And, duly noted, it does not affect everyone the same way. For instance, one of my friends who was very introverted and self conscious has becomr more confident. And I find he is very sensitive to how the "speak" comes across to us regular guys, so he lays off it when he's around me.

That sounds like a success story to me. I'm glad to hear that your friend benefited from his experience, as did my wife and I!

My wife was also very shy and introverted. It has been amazing and wonderful to watch her bloom into the self confident person she is today.

Before her K&A experience, people would comment that they never ever heard her speak. Now people ask 'who is this lady?!' and where did she come from? We are all blessed, because my wife is an incredible lady full of vision and ideas, which she used to keep to herself, thinking she was unworthy to share them.

Given that your other friends are annoying with their 'speak', I am left to wonder if they were not already prone to these (or similar) tendencies prior to their experiences with K&A. Perhaps the tendencies showed up in other ways, which you related to, and now they use a language which leaves you 'outside' and it grates on you?

Quote

I would only encourage you to take a close look at how it has affected every aspect of your life......has your critical thinking been affected in any way?

I certainly hope so.

Afer all, if my thinking was not affected, wouldn't I still be making the same decisions and choices that I made before the seminar?

And, weren't those old decisions, the ones that got me where I was in life? Weren't they responsible, at least in part, for my level of happinesss (or unhappiness) and my station in life?

I am more patient and tollerant now.

I now accept responsibility for my choices and accept the consequences and rewards for them.

[u:e66b336cd5]For example:[/u:e66b336cd5]
Suppose you and I share a ride to work, and you drive. You are talking on the cell phone and get distrated and we have an accident. This results in my being late for work. I miss a meeting with a big customer, we lose the contract and I lose my job in a company downsizing.....

Prior to K&A, I would, likely as not, have blamed you for the entire outcome. You were responsible for driving. You were talking on the cell phone. You were involved in the accident. You made me late. Because of you, I lost my job.

Using the 'lingo', I would have gone 'victim' to the situation and not accepted any responsibility for the decisions I had made (or not made).

[u:e66b336cd5]Such as:[/u:e66b336cd5]
I did not have to get into the car with you when I knew you had a careless habit of chatting on the cell phone when driving.
I could have objected when you got on the cell phone.
I could have offered to drive while you talked.
I could have paid more attention and seen the car coming at us.
I could have had the project ready sooner.
I could have made a backup plan for someone else to cover for me if I were unable to get to the meeting on time.
etc etc etc

I'm not saying that I 'should' or 'should not' have done any of those things. Simply that I 'could' have done them and I 'chose' not to do them.

This means, simply, that I am responsible, at least in part, for the results that I helped to create, or at least did not do much to avoid.

As much as you are 'directly' responsible for the accident. I am equally 'responsible' for the final outcome.

***

Please do not confuse 'blame' with 'responsible' in this context. Surely you are to 'blame' for the accident (if we must assign blame) because you were carelessly talking on the cell phone. Yet I am equally 'responsible' for losing my job, due to my own actions and inactions and choices.

Pre- K&A, I did not look at situations from this angle.

From this perspective, I can now see where I often went 'victim' to things in my life and did not see where I helped to create the results I received. (sorry for the lingo but it expresses it in the clearest way I know)

Now I am less prone to 'blame' others. I am more patient and understanding when others want to 'blame' me for something. I am able to look at their 'blame', see how it applies to my life and my choices, accept responsibilty for my role in whatever the situation is, integrate it into my life (however that looks) and then thank them for their feedback.

Rather than pre-K&A, when I would quickly show them how wrong they were to blame me and how it was their fault.

Am I perfect? HaHaHa hell no.
Have I arrived at some pinnacle from which I perch and enjoy my 'arrived-ness'? Hahaha.. of course not.

Yet, I am calmer. I approach people and situations with a much more level headedness. I strive to come from a place of 'compassion' and 'understanding' rather than 'judgement' and 'righteousness'.

Sometimes I fail.. other times I succeed. And all the time I keep moving forward.

Has my critical thinking been affected? I hope so.

Now, perhaps too late, I should ask for your definition of 'critical thinking' ;)

*******************************************
As an aside, to address the moderator, regarding 'problems'.

When I went to the first seminar, K&A said they would not ask us to do anything 'illegal', 'immoral', 'unethical' or 'unsafe' and that they (the staff) would agree to the same rules of conduct. I believe they kept their promise.

The facilitators made it a point to know everyone in the course. And at no time did I ever feel that I, or anyone around me, was at-risk either physically or emotionally.

Before I can suggest any changes, you will need to identify the 'problems' to which you are referring.

******************************************

Best Regards,
DG

felixcatski,

After reading my post, the point in my car-crash example may have been obscured.

The analysys of the 'victim' mentality is this:

When I am blaming you for the wreck and for losing my job, I am in a place of stagnation. I am imobile and frozen in time. I am stuck in the 'past' with the 'accident' and I am not looking to the future.

The thing I 'get' from it, is sympathy from others, attention, compassion.

However, the price I pay, is that I am stuck. There can be no growth. There can be no forward progress. Since you are to 'blame', I have only the 'story' to tell. Because, if in fact you are to 'blame' for my situation, then I have no control and I am helpless.

In contrast, coming from 'responsible', I can look to the future and adjust my choices. With 'responsible' comes change, improvement and growth. While you might be responsible for your actions, and directly for the accident, by taking responsibility for my choices, I am able to improve the quality of my future choices and thus, hopefully, improve the quality of my life.

If my example was unclear, hopefully this helps. If it was clear, forgive my blathering.

Regards,
DG

Diverguy:

This all sounds like recycled Landmark Education and est thinking.

In Landmark/est they talk about "getting it" i.e. accepting the philosophy of founder "Werner Erhard" formerly "Jack" Rosenberg.

It's funny how so many LGATs seem to copy each other and say the same thing.

Who was Klemmer linked to?

Wasn't it PSI?

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a research paper done by a clinical psychologist on the subject of "mass marathon training."

He attended a multi-day seminar program.

He states that there are "13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously 'fabricate' a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the 'psychonoxious' or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions."

And "groups were determined to be dangerous when:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, 'blaming the victim.'"

rrmoderator:

I'm sure you are much more qualified than am I to decide what it sounds like or doesn't sound like.

I'm unfamiliar with your 'Landmark Education' and I'm unfamiliar with any other of your LGAT comparisons.

My experience is with K&A and their courses and I am only qualified to relate my experiences with this one company.

A fire in my fireplace can 'sound like' a building burning down.
They both have fire and they both are hot.

Beer and Root Beer sound and look similar, yet their composition is very different.

Diet Coke and regular Pepsi are both brown and fizzy, yet their makeup is vastly different and one could easily put a diabetic into a coma.

Terrorists, who conduct jihad in the name of their Allah, cite enough of the Koran to "sound like Islam". Yet their conclusions and their actions are vastly different from an Islamist who strictly adheres to the Koran.

Has anyone ever said that you "sound like your father.”?
Do you believe that you are a clone of him in every way?

Anything can 'sound like' something else and they may even 'be' similar.

Do you think we, as a people and as individuals, should 'not' accept responsibility for our choices and our actions?

Do you have children? Do you hold them accountable for telling the truth? Do you enforce the consequences of their bad decisions when they 'lie' or 'steal' or 'cheat' or 'disobey'? Or, do you accept their 'it wasn’t my fault' and never punish them?

If you believe that children must 'accept the consequences of, and the responsibility for, their actions', then perhaps you too sound like K&A, though I would hardly jump to the conclusion that you are an LGAT.

I recently watched a nature show, where they showed that the DNA of a baboon is 95% identical to a Human being. From this, someone could reasonably claim that 'baboons are human' because they are 'close enough'.

Sir, it is your forum and you are welcome to use misdirection and 'clumping' to group everything together if you wish. Its called freedom and it is a wonderful thing.

My experience of your remarks is, when you don't have anything specific, you drag in a comparison, point to shadows, make innuendos and imply a problem.

This discussion is about K&A. My request is that you stick to K&A when you post your replies to this thread. Neither you, nor I, nor K&A are responsible for decisions made by 'Landmark Education', no matter how much any of us might 'sound' like something LE said or did at some point.

My mother always said "If you cant say something good about someone, don’t say anything at all."

In this case I would modify it to "If you don’t have any facts, don’t make them up or imply that they exist".

If K&A is the evil that you seem to think it is, they will show their colors and you won't have to help that happen.

If there is some fundamental flaw in my previous posts (or this one), then address it directly and show it to the world for what it is.

Using misdirection and implying some subtle evil link only weakens your position.

Best Regards,
DG

Correction,

For those of you who are anal about exact details,

It's the Orangutan, not the Baboon with the similar DNA to humans.

I apologize for any Orangutans who might be offended by my inaccurate reference.

:)

DG :shock:

Quote

felixcatski,

After reading my post, the point in my car-crash example may have been obscured.

The analysys of the 'victim' mentality is this:

When I am blaming you for the wreck and for losing my job, I am in a place of stagnation. I am imobile and frozen in time. I am stuck in the 'past' with the 'accident' and I am not looking to the future.

The thing I 'get' from it, is sympathy from others, attention, compassion.

However, the price I pay, is that I am stuck. There can be no growth. There can be no forward progress. Since you are to 'blame', I have only the 'story' to tell. Because, if in fact you are to 'blame' for my situation, then I have no control and I am helpless.

In contrast, coming from 'responsible', I can look to the future and adjust my choices. With 'responsible' comes change, improvement and growth. While you might be responsible for your actions, and directly for the accident, by taking responsibility for my choices, I am able to improve the quality of my future choices and thus, hopefully, improve the quality of my life.

If my example was unclear, hopefully this helps. If it was clear, forgive my blathering.

Regards,
DG

Actually, this sounds exactly like Landmark Education EST "technology".

Virtually verbatim.