To whom it may concern:

"rorybowman" has been banned from the board.

Last submitted posts, which were not approved, fit well within the "flame" category.

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rrmoderator
garya:

Not quite.

Note the liabilities and danger signs posted and add those to concerns expressed.

Also, the scripted instructions that detail how to manipulate participants are disturbing.

You said,

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"some of the aspects of a LGAT"

However, MKP actually has all of the aspects of an LGAT, because it is an LGAT.

You say,

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"very similar to techniques known to have been successfully used for brainwashing and mind control"

See [www.culteducation.com]

[b:d003af9da9]The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:[/b:d003af9da9]

The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

The use of an organized peer group

Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

The manual notes and comments of participants easily match this.

See [board.culteducation.com]

These are very broad generalizations and conclusions. I do not think it is valid to state that the manual notes and comments easily match this without being specific. Can we narrow this down and talk about the way that MKP matches or does not match up on any one of your criteria? Is that a valid way to approach the question? It seems to me that if you take a list of 20 criteria (or whatever number) and state that if an organization matches some of the criteria it matches all of the criteria, such an argument is faulty.

I am willing to engage in this discussion with as open a mind as possible. I believe that you are, too. But, I see only conclusory judgments from you here. I a trying to understand your reasoning and evidence.

Can you be more specific on any particular point?

Gary

MKP recruiting techniques manual

INVITING TO THE NEW WARRIOR TRAINING

New Warriors rely on word of mouth and personal invitation to bring men to the Initiation Training. While we utilize other outreach methods, none is as effective as the sharing of the gift in a one on one relationship.

Whether the intent is to get a man to the training or an outreach type event (Open Circle, Head, Heart and Soul presentation, Wisdom Council), there is a way to communicate which is authentic and congruent with our personal commitment as Warriors. Using the discovery and listening skills we use in our I Groups and with our Brothers will keep us "real" with ourselves and with the man we invite.



1. Focus on the man; not yourself or the training

2. Listen and speak from your heart and don't be attached to the
outcome. This is an act of service.

Relate: ( 3% of the conversation )

Ask him how he feels. Identify with his heart connections. Gain trust
and bonding.

Discover: (90% of the conversation )

Through asking good questions, uncover commitment. Create possibilities. Allow the man to discover for himself. Find out what his commitment is to his own life.



" I'd like to know more about you. Do you have time to talk
for a few minutes?"

" May I ask you a few questions about your life? (ask
permission, come from the heart)

" Is there anything missing in your life right now?"

" What is going on in your life that you would like to
change now?"

"What is missing for you in your life? What stands in the
way of you achieving that?"

" What do you want from your life? What are your dreams? "

" What do you believe is possible? And if you achieved
that, what else would be possible?"

" If you were to go to the New Warrior training, what would
you want to get out of it?"

All the while, restating what you hear him say…so that he
gets it that you care who he is as a man.

Advocate: ( 2% of the conversation )

Relate to his needs; tell him how the training gave you what he said
he's looking for…

Ask, " Is this something you would be interested in?"

Support: ( 2% of the conversation )

" What can I do to support you in your decision?"

Give a brochure, an Outreach event flier, offer to go with to
Outreach event, copy of an article….

Action: ( 3% of conversation )

Make a request…an invitation..

" Is it OK if I call and follow up next week?"

" I ask you to seriously consider attending this training."

Bottom Line; Listen, don't sell. Let the man talk – 90% of your time
should be devoted to your discoveryof him , his needs, his fears and
concerns. When you do speak, speak directly to his issues.

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rorybowman

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Europe-girl
But rorybowman, you didn't answer my questions...
Are you inviting people? Do you talk with people inside MKP about inviting people?

No to both counts. I'm sure there are people who do, but I see less emphasis on recruitment in MKP than I do in other organizations I am part of: my fitness gym, a local food co-op, a computer user group, a professional organization. I have mentioned to some people that I have found it useful in my own life, but in the same way I might mention I found it was useful to cut down on caffeine in the afternoon or to see a chiropractor after a car accident.

I don't doubt that there are evangelical true believers who get a lot more excited about MKP than I do (just as there are people who are very excited about chiropracty or believe high fructose corn syrup is the root of all evil) but I have not seen them.

Once I reach ten posts I understand that Mr. Ross will grant me insider privileges to receive private messages (assuming I last so long) but I don't see that the quiet, personal work of MKP lends itself to such hype anymore than similar support groups such as AA or a group for bicycle enthusiasts does.

I found value there but doubt it is the best thing for most people, and certainly would not suggest it to everyone. That just strikes me as invasive and inappropriate and a bit creepy. If I ever mention MKP to anyone, it is in the same sort of context where I might mention that they should really write a will or a formal business plan for their small business. It just doesn't come up much.

garya:

The issues you cite are redundant and have already been addressed and discussed within this thread previously.

See [board.culteducation.com]

You say,

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I do not think it is valid to state that the manual notes and comments easily match this without being specific. Can we narrow this down and talk about the way that MKP matches or does not match up on any one of your criteria?

Already done, read the thread again.

You claimed,

Quote

I have read the majority of the posts, primariily the early ones up through the posting of the excerpted training materials and the most recent ones.

But then state,

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I am willing to engage in this discussion with as open a mind as possible.

I don't think so.

If you have already "read the majority of the posts" and the "excerpted training materials" you know the specifics point-by-point.

But as you previously admitted,

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I am a participant in MKP activities.

This means you have a continued ongoing involvement and commitment with MKP.

You are here to defend the organization, not engage in "discussion" with an "open mind."

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rrmoderator
Feldspar:

What you are describing is group therapy not education.

Here is the problem.

Therapy is typically through a trained professional that is licensed and meets certain criteria, such as a clinical psychologist. The professional has the ability and training to understand boundaries, possible problems arising out of therapy etc.

MP has no such training or educational requirements for its staffers.

Also, when a person enters therapy, if the professional harms them or violates their privacy, there is typically recourse through a licensing board, association and/or legally.

Not so with MP.

So it is ultimately safer and less problematic to go to a professional and licensed marriage and family therapist to resolve issues about mommy, wife etc. than MP.

See [www.culteducation.com]

So, mr RR I'll try to go back through the posts and find the supposed detailed analysis that exists. Let's take this post for example. It states that MKP has "no such training or educational requirements" for its staffers. What is your basis for this statement? What do you know about the training requirements? I know that your statement is false. Men who lead training weekends typically have at least 2000 contact hours of work in this field. Many of them are licensed therapists or psychologists.

I don't know for sure what the criteria are that would describe something as "group therapy" versus training or education. I will look into that because I agree that it is important. If the training consists of therapy under any state's law, it ought to be regulated as such.

Finally, you offer up that it is safer and less problematic to go to a professionally licensed individual therapist. Do you have any data for that? There are good therapists and there are bad therapists. The fact of professional licensing and an accountability system recognized by the state does not ensure quality of care. Yes, it attempts to get high quality of care and many many people are benefited by it. But, you would have to acknowledge, I think that many are also injured by it.

So, what is it important that we evaluate - the results or the system that is in place? The public licensing system has advantages over MKP in that the public licensing and review of individual therapists, combined with the legal system, can publicly enforce accountability for therapists. The market system, if information is adequately available, will tend to limit the practices of those therapists who do not perform well.

As far as MKP goes, though, it has safeguards developed over the 20+ years of the organization. These are some of them. The organizational environment is set up to foster an open discussion of the training model, its risks and benefits. The general focus of the work we do is on what the individual man judges is best for himself, not what I judge is best for him. Philosphically and practically men who come to the NWTA in therapy are encouraged to continue with their therapists. All men are encouraged after completing the NWTA to make no major changes in their lives for at least the coming 6 months. Organizationally, we recognize that an immediate effect of the training can be the idealization of the men who staffed the training weekend and its leaders. Therefore, we have an ethics policy in place to prohibit any leader or staffer to enter into a personal or business relationship with any man who has completed the training that might be seen as exploitive and what I have seen is that the bias is against entering into any kind of relationship with the man, even if it might not seem to be exploitative. All staff men are taught to be responsible for the safety of all processes on the NWTA weekend and in I-groups thereafter. Staff men and leaders are constantly watching each other for ego issues and the like that might get in the way of providing the best training for the men that are there.

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rrmoderator
garya:

The issues you cite are redundant and have already been addressed and discussed within this thread previously.

See [board.culteducation.com]

You say,

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I do not think it is valid to state that the manual notes and comments easily match this without being specific. Can we narrow this down and talk about the way that MKP matches or does not match up on any one of your criteria?

Already done, read the thread again.

You claimed,

Quote

I have read the majority of the posts, primariily the early ones up through the posting of the excerpted training materials and the most recent ones.

But then state,

Quote

I am willing to engage in this discussion with as open a mind as possible.

I don't think so.

If you have already "read the majority of the posts" and the "excerpted training materials" you know the specifics point-by-point.

But as you previously admitted,

Quote

I am a participant in MKP activities.

This means you have a continued ongoing involvement and commitment with MKP.

You are here to defend the organization, not engage in "discussion" with an "open mind."

I've been over the bulk of the thread and am having trouble sorting the wheat from the chaff. Probably the best thing is for me to read again, starting with the first post, and respond as I can along the way.

One of the things I have observed is that many messages describing problems with MKP or adverse experiences of individual participants are accepted uncritically, even applauded or supported. Many Supporters of MKP are described as "apologists". You don't even know me but have concluded that because I am involved with MKP I cannot engage in this conversation with an open mind. I find this pattern troubling in a forum devoted to providing accurate information about this or any other group.

Gary

garya:

As I said before, you are not here for anything except to defend MKP.

You really are not interested in complaints, people hurt, etc., just defending the group, which you support.

You say,

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Men who lead training weekends typically have at least 2000 contact hours of work in this field. Many of them are licensed therapists or psychologists.

But MKP does not require that every leader must be a licensed mental health professional.

"2,000 contact hours"?

What hours with whom?

Certainly not to meet board certified mental health professional requirements.

You say,

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you offer up that it is safer and less problematic to go to a professionally licensed individual therapist. Do you have any data for that? There are good therapists and there are bad therapists. The fact of professional licensing and an accountability system recognized by the state does not ensure quality of care.

You correctly point out,

Quote

The public licensing system has advantages over MKP in that the public licensing and review of individual therapists, combined with the legal system, can publicly enforce accountability for therapists. The market system, if information is adequately available, will tend to limit the practices of those therapists who do not perform well.

MKP has no such safeguards and is therefore problematic and less safe.

You say,

Quote

MKP goes, though, it has safeguards...All staff men are taught to be responsible for the safety of all processes on the NWTA weekend and in I-groups thereafter. Staff men and leaders are constantly watching each other

The supposed "safeguards" you claim are either subjective, as measured by the men under MKP influence, or internal and controlled by the organization itself. No one at MKP is externally and professionally accountable to an outside regulatory agency, independent board, licensing bodies etc. regarding their MKP work as are mental health professionals providing counseling and therapy.

MKP has chosen to describe what it does as "training or education" much like other LGATs (e.g. Landmark Education, Sterling, Impact Training) to avoid the accompanying accountability that would likely come by admitting that what they actually do can be seen as group therapy.

Hi Rick and users

Since my own thread has been stopped I will post here instead.

I would however like to protest at the cessation of my own thread,

[board.culteducation.com]

there are several threads on Landmark and mine had a different angle on the Mankind Project subject,
I am also curious as to why you have banned Rorybowman. Can you at least show us what he wrote?

I am here for serious debate as my original thread was intending, if however proponents of views you disagree with are banned and threads you don’t like halted then where is the space for open constructive debate?

The benefits that I personally have found working with the Mankind project in the UK over the last few months:

Developed a closer relationship with my Dad,
See how common a lot of problems are for other men,
Develop a more healthy relationship with my anger and sadness and learn how to express it and how in the mainstream men often believe it is wrong to express such emotions,
I’ve learnt a bit more about the Mens movement,
I’ve learnt to receive better and receive close support from other men on personal and emotional issues,
I’ve learnt how to better support other men,

From what I can see a lot of the problems you talk about with the Mankind Project are as you say down to it not being licensed to practise what it practises.

Surely it is not the Mankind Project’s responsibility to create a code and legal set of regulations and then adhere them, this is the government’s responsibility. If there are no legal regulations that they are required to adhere to then they are not breaking any law and therefore what is the problem? If I am wrong then surely you would be calling the authorities to come to every training and take them to court?

If not then perhaps its the government you should be campaigning to if you want a set of regulations for groups such as these.

It is so important to note here that thousands and thousands of people take the courses which are discussed on this forum and have nothing but incredibly positive views about them (like myself). It is a very small minority which have an issue with them, and none of these have so far come up with any worthy ideas as to how to address what they see as problems.

Regardless of all that, respect for all of you on your journeys :wink:

Joe

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we have an ethics policy in place to prohibit any leader or staffer to enter into a personal or business relationship with any man who has completed the training that might be seen as exploitive and what I have seen is that the bias is against entering into any kind of relationship with the man,

MKP immediately during the weekend goes against this six month "rule" of not starting a relationship either business or personal with a man. This is done by encouraging the men to "donate" a set amount for a year on the last day of training. As my husband explained to me, they were "encouraged" to pledge an amount that their "guts" told them they "got out of the weekend".

They were given a "pledge" form and from what I understand they had a "meeting" in regards to the importance of this.

This, IMHO, is already "breaking" the six month rule before the weekend is over. Rework a mans mind over an LGAT weekend training, then get him to "pledge" a set amount of money to MKP while he is still "psychologically" "enthralled" by the MKP weekend. What better time to get a man to pledge? Certainely not six months after NWTA, but during NWTA.

This, is a "business" relationship, to encourage a man to "pledge" a monthly amount for a year.

Joe1:

What you have to say can be said here.

What "rorybowman" wrote was more of a rant, which contained the same redundant denials about MKP and attacks on MKP critics.

A violation of the rules and really not noteworthy.

Landmark has different threads here, because each thread discusses distinct and different topics or aspects of the company, such as labor violations, teen involvement, on-line video censorship, legal battles etc.

If you can think of a distinct topic concerning MKP that requires a seperate thread that might be meaningful, but it doesn't seem necessary.

However, "MKP Member willing to answer questions" isn't anything new and/or necessary to start a new thread over.

Your testimonial is redundant, but OK you like MKP and support it.

Please understand that regulations and meaningful accountability regarding MKP and its leaders is not the only issue.

Not only are people safer by attending group therapy led by licensed professionals, but also the content of MKP programs and how it affects participants and their families is an issue.

The manual notes and comments by MKP participants posted at this board are quite disturbing and reflect a very manipulative group that apparently seeks to produce a similar mindset, which has as a byproduct also produced a similar pattern of problems.

You say,

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It is a very small minority which have an issue with them, and none of these have so far come up with any worthy ideas as to how to address what they see as problems.

However, IMO the complaints are again quite similar, consistent and significant.

Public education through boards like this is the "worthy idea" people hurt by MKP seem to have.

Again, because MKP has chosen to describe itself as "training" and/or "education" it has effectively avoided regulation and licensing.