Free_Thinker:

Thank you for noting that your experience is subjective.

But when someone dies that isn't subjective it's objectively true. And the lawsuit settlement wasn't subjective either, it was a loss for MKP, as they paid and complied with the terms of the settlement, which you admit.

You say, "I have been very close to suicides to know how this impacts families and their sense of desperation and their need to rid themselves of a feeling of guilt. The people that are left behind after a suicide of a close relative/friend often struggle with a great deal of guilt".

Again, this is a rather pathetic and transparent attempt to somehow shift the focus to the family and away from MKP regarding the suicide.

Fact -- MKP settled the lawsuit and paid the family $75,000 and was required to make changes in its organization through the settlement.

You admit, "MKP was forced to make these changes as a result of the lawsuit filed by the parents of the man that committed suicide. Part of the settlement was that the MKP had to change a few things".

The bereaved family of the MKP pariticipant that commited suicide wanted and won more than simply a financial settlement.

You said, "There's simply nothing to believe. Just [MKP] concepts that one may ponder over and processes that one can choose to use". Yes. And those "concepts" and chosen "processess" are the MKP belief system. MKP's LGAT weekend is used as means of influencing people to adopt those concepts and use those suggested preferred processes. And as readers of this thread can readily recognize by going back to the beginning of the thread and reading through it, MKP apparently uses coercive persuasion techniques to influence its participants. They do this in my opinion within the carefully crafted context of the MKP weekend.

You admit, "I would agree that the instructions posted in the beginning of this thread (and thus the NWTA) requires or portray a certain worldview indeed".

That "worldview" is again evidence that MKP is promoting a belief system and using its LGAT to weekend to accomplish that end.

You say, "My own personal worldview doesn't collide with [MKP's worldview] and doesn't prevent me from being part of that one". Fine. But once again, that reflects a philsophy promoted by MKP, which you believe in and apparently find no substantial fault with, from your perspective.

You admit this further by explaining that MKP is about "raising awareness", which "can be called a worldview or philosophy".

MKP begins to sound like therapy in some of your descriptions. You include such things as MKP helping you to "know what triggers [you] into rage" and "what moves [you]". This woul imply a kind of group therapy focused upon guiding your "awareness" and influencing your perception concerning your emotions. You go on to include such things as awareness about your personal "impact on others", "hurt feelings" and coming to conclusions about why someone adopt certain patterns of personal behavior such as "because I want people to like me". And that MKP gives you "a better understanding of myself and my behavior". Summing up you say, "I don't see any harm in that. On the contrary, I know plenty people that would benefit from understanding themselves a lot better".

Again, you seem to be describing a kind of therapy process, but without a licensed mental health professional, that would be accountable to a licensing board. And with a group that insists upon a release form to avoid legal responsibility.

You then spin MKP as "the Matrix" as a choice between taking "the red or the blue pill?"

This analogy goes even further in an apparent demonstration that MKP is seemingly promoting its own version of reality based upon its worldview or belief system.

You state, "MKP has no organized way to recruit people. I benefit from it, I enjoy it, and thus I talk to other people about it."

But that's the essence of recrutment.

You explain, "Men can come to the I-Group without doing the NWTA. The I-Group is free of charge. We don't talk about MKP, we don't talk about world views. We talk about ourselves, our own experiences and how that impacted us and others."

However, since the I-Group is composed largely of ment that have done the weekend and support MKP they talk about that experience, which you admit.

You claim, "Many studies were funded by LGATs".

Please name any such scientific study done by any LGAT that offers scientifically and objectively measurable results, which was then peer-reviewed and subsequently published within a peer-reviewed journal. Your failure to do so on this thread will be taken as a tacit admission that there is no such study.

MKP doesn't "make money"?

MKP is not free and the weekend is provided for a fee. There are also some salaried positions associated with MKP. MKP founders apparently have made money and/or have been compensated in some way by the organiztion.

FYI -- I have not suggested any conspiracy concerning MKP and Wikipedia.

There is a history of various groups called "cults" and/or "cult-like" editing at Wikipedia to influence its content and perspective. Wikipedia has acknowled this and the link regaridng the controversy over Scientology editors at Wikipedia reflects this fact. As an "open source" encyclopedia anyone can edit iWikipedia content. Read the linked Wikipedia disclaimer again, which reflects these specific problems at Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a credible source to cite concerning research due to its inherent and sytemic problems.

Thank you for your participation at the message board.

It's often meaningful to learn from the posts of people currently involved in a group to better understand that group and its perspective.

Your posts have been helpful in that regard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2012 11:09PM by rrmoderator.

Dear rrmoderator,

I can't help but notice a prejudice against the MKP. Would you be willing/able to look at it unbiased? I don't mind stepping into someone else's to get an idea of what it's like to be in their position. The parents of the man that committed suicide for example. If you try to imaging how you would feel in those circumstances you can also see why things unfolded the way they did. That is not an attempt to shift anything, it's simply a matter of viewing the world through someone else's eyes.

I'm not sure if you understand the term 'belief system'. A process is a process, not a belief system. A concept is like an idea, that can change at any time. Like a hypotheses/theory. In a belief system, everything is fixed. Within MKP, changes are made all the time and nothing is fixed. There is no book to follow and there are no dogma's. I hope you do realize that you reason from a belief system yourself? Your idea about MKP is fixed and can't be changed. You're not open to look at the processes objectively and will not accept that parts of it may have value. To me, that sounds very rigid. Rigid like a true believer's convictions.

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rrmoderator
However, since the I-Group is composed largely of ment that have done the weekend and support MKP they talk about that experience, which you admit.

That's a misconception. There is very little talk about the weekend if any talk at all. The weekend is a personal experience and there simply isn't much to talk about. The weekend is only a small part of the the entire project that focuses on raising awareness. The biggest part by far are the I-Groups. That is not talked about at all in this thread, even though it is far more significant.

Quote
rrmoderator
You state, "MKP has no organized way to recruit people. I benefit from it, I enjoy it, and thus I talk to other people about it."
But that's the essence of recrutment.

I guess if the military relied on this 'essence of recruitment' we'd have a very small army.... :)

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rrmoderator
MKP is not free and the weekend is provided for a fee. There are also some salaried positions associated with MKP. MKP founders apparently have made money and/or have been compensated in some way by the organiztion.

Of course their are positions with a small salary. I guess I can't expect people to spend all their time on an organization without any compensation? Or should they perhaps apply for the dole while they work for the MKP? All finances from MKP are open for inspection. And the finances are inspected by dozens of people every year. And trust me, if anything odd happens/appears, people will object! MKP is not filled with sheep, but critical independent thinking people. Only the weekend attracts a fee, everything else is free. That fee is used for accommodation, to compensate travel, and to support men that can't afford it.

Quote
rrmoderator
You claim, "Many studies were funded by LGATs".

Please name any such scientific study done by any LGAT that offers scientifically and objectively measurable results, which was then peer-reviewed and subsequently published within a peer-reviewed journal. Your failure to do so on this thread will be taken as a tacit admission that there is no such study.

I merely responded to your own point. I agree that research needs to be done, but that finance should come from an independent source. If an LGAT organisation is funding research into LGAT, it is likely that people are suspicious towards the outcome. All I say is that studies have been done, and that studies are often (partly) funded by an LGAT. See for instance this one; [webfiles.uci.edu]

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rrmoderator
You then spin MKP as "the Matrix" as a choice between taking "the red or the blue pill?"
This analogy goes even further in an apparent demonstration that MKP is seemingly promoting its own version of reality based upon its worldview or belief system.

Please note the difference between my analogies and my attempts to explain things to you and an official standpoint from MKP. I'm merely trying to get a point across, but I obviously failed in my attempt. What I'm trying to say is that we, as human beings, have an awareness. We are able to recognize ourselves in the mirror. We are aware of our own body. We can be aware of things happening around us. We can be aware of some feelings we may have. You might be aware of anger at some point. So it seems there is a 'scale' of awareness ranging from very basic (recognizing your own reflection) to rather complex (being able to pick up on small shifts in your emotional state). Your level of awareness depends on how well equipped you are to detect your emotions/shifts in emotions/emotional triggers. And like playing the piano, the more you practice, the better you become. And like most things, when you just start doing it, you move up the ladder fast before it asymptotes. And when it does a little bit of progress takes a lot of effort. Raising awareness to a higher level is actually very difficult and it takes time and continuous attention. Like playing the piano, if you stop doing it, your skills degrade rather quickly. This is where the I-Group helps a lot. I compared initiating the process of becoming aware with taking the red or the blue pill.

Just to be clear; I'm no spokesman for the MKP. I have my own ideas/concepts and these change all the time. Whatever I post are my personal experiences and views. You cannot say things like '...that MKP is seemingly promoting its own version of reality...'. If I use an analogy, then that is my analogy. No excerpt from any book or manual and not subscribed by anyone else but me.

I hope this helps in understanding the MKP (or me) better! :)

Free_Thinker:

You say, "I can't help but notice a prejudice against the MKP. Would you be willing/able to look at it unbiased?"

My opinion regarding MKP is based upon the historical facts, both regarding MKP and other LGATs.

The evidence concerning the systemic problems with LGATs like MKP is overwhelming. For example, James Arthur Ray, an LGAT leader, is currently doing time in prison after his criminal conviction for negligent homicide, which was linked to an LGAT weekend. Ray incorporated supposed "Native American" themes that included a "sweat lodge" where four participants died. Like MKP Ray was also sued. He settled out of court too, or rather his insurance carriers decided to settle rather than go to trial.

For more details about the Ray disaster read [www.culteducation.com]

Another LGAT called NXIVM was also reportedly linked to a sucide.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Landmark Education has been linked to bizarre behavior as well.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Historically, mental health professionals have raised questions concerning EST (Erhard Seminars Training) the predecessor of Landmark Education.

See their report here [www.culteducation.com]

Other LGATs like MKP have rather dodgy histories such as Sterling Institute of Relationship, Impact Trainings and Lifespring. Note that they have similar pattern of bad press and complaints. Both Impact and Lifespring have also been sued.

Sterling see [www.culteducation.com]

Lifespring see [www.culteducation.com]

Impact Trainings See [www.culteducation.com]

So rather than reflecting "prejudice" or "bias" the complaints and litigation regarding MKP fit well within the existing historical pattern of problematic LGATs.

FYI -- According to a previous entry on this thread, "Kauth, Tosi, and Hering attended a workshop called Men, Sex, and Power in California offered by Justin Sterling...The techniques learned there are a major part of the NWTA. Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard who founded what was then known as Erhard Seminars Training (EST). Today, EST has transformed itself into the Landmark Forum. Men, Sex, and Power (Sterling Seminars) was the outgrowth of Sterling’s training with EST".

See [forum.culteducation.com]

"I'm not sure if you understand the term 'belief system'"

When people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they don't "understand". It just means that they think you are wrong.

MKP is based upon accepting a belief system, which includes both "concepts" and its "process". And as you freely admit, "It takes time and continuous attention. Like playing the piano". You said, "This is where the I-Group helps a lot". Of course, because it is reinforces both the concepts and process. As you say this is "the process of becoming aware".

Bill Kauth the co-founder of MKP stated in an interview, "My mission is ‘I create a safe planet through empowering a balance of spirit and soul.’ I’ve been living it largely in the creation of the Warrior Monk Training Intensive, in which people learn experientially to embrace both spirit and soul and take that energy out in to the world through a very clear life mission and goal which will manifest itself without doubt." Kauth further explains, " I make a clear distinction between spirit and soul. Spirit is about assent, going up, looking for the light, the right answer, perfection and cosmic truth. Soul is about descent, going down into the mystery—the not knowing; confusion; darkness; material. I got this distinction from Thomas Moore and Richard Rohr who suggest we as a culture are drowning in spirit and desperately hungry for soul. I believe this explains why the NWTA keeps spreading as it’s 95% soul work. It’s what men need to feel whole and balanced beings."

Kauth is outlining his belief system based upon his concepts about "spirit and sou", which is "experientially" learned or accepted by faith. Kauth cites Moore and Rohr, who are both religious figures. Kauth's talk about "looking for the light" and seeking "cosmic truth" is religious jargon. The MKP weekend seminars are the process Bill Kauth uses to indoctrinate others in his belief system to become what he calls "balanced beings" or true believers.

See [www.selfgrowth.com]

You say, "Just to be clear; I'm no spokesman for the MKP. I have my own ideas/concepts".

But your analogy specifically using the Matix is interesting. In the interview MKP co-founder Bill Kauth says, " I’ve appreciated The Matrix films and have some growing urgency to develop trainings on how to live outside 'the machine'. This ties in with what I said above about the pervasive, highly intentional media bombardment such that most of us don’t know just what is real anymore, as in the Matrix."

Again see [www.selfgrowth.com]

Your analogy comes from Kauth and MKP. This is proof that the indoctrination process has worked and your I-group "helps a lot".

Your link is very telling. It is not to a scientific study specifically focused on objective measurable results produced by any LGAT. Instead you linked to a paper titled "Characteristics of Participants in a Large Group Awareness".

The study is described as follows:

"...conducted to assess the psychosocial characteristics of individuals who become involved in large group awareness training (LGAT) programs. Prospective participants in The Forum [Landmark Education previously known as est], which has been classified as an LGAT, were compared with nonparticipating peers and with available normative samples on measures of well-being, negative life events, social support, and philosophical orientation. Results revealed that prospective participants were significantly more distressed than peer and normative samples of community residents and had a higher level of impact of recent negative life events compared with peer (but not normative) samples. Prospective participants also held preparticipation values more similar to those espoused by the LGAT than peer or normative samples, and the three groups failed to be distinguished by their levels of social support. The implications of the findings are considered for understanding participation in LGATs and other self-change promoting activities."

Not at all a study about scientigically measurable objective results producted by an LGAT. But rather about the apparent vulnerabilities of LGAT recruits and how they might be seen as predisposed to LGAT involvement due to their background.

There is no scientific study, that I am aware of, which proves any meaningful objective positive results are produced by LGAT training, e.g. higher grades in school, increased income, lower divorce rate, etc.

What LGATs do effectively is produce subjective feelings as Kauth says "experientially". Groups like MKP are adept at influencing people's feelings within a controlled environment. But LGATs do not produce objectively measurable results. My guess is if they thought that there were such results they would be anxious to fund a scientific study to prove their effectiveness. LGATs like Landmark/est and Sterling certainly have been around for a long time and could easily find the money to do this. But they have chosen not to do such a study.

BTW -- Note the words "philosophical orientation" in the study you linked to, which rflects a philosophy or belief system. There is a subsection within the study with this subheading.

MKP is apparently how Bill Kauth makes a living. In the same interview previously linked Kauth says, "I receive enough money to live adequately. I feel very blessed". He calls himself "a social entrepreneur".

Seems like Kauth is doing well selling his "cosmic truth".

Thanks again for demonstrating many of these points through your posts. It's helpful for people to see how MKP affects people. Rather than being a "free thinker" your comments appear to reflect Kauth's thinking.

Dear rrmoderator,

I appreciate all the info and links you've send. A little bit too much to read all at once, but I will read up over the next couple of days. I have been studying up on LGATs a fair bit. The term LGAT was new to me and I picked that up on this forum. As I read through different postings on different threads, I came to realize that there is indeed a general LGAT format and that all 'trainings' have a lot of similarities. I've been reading up on PSI, Landmark and EST. I can also see how MKP is not that different from these at all. So first I'd like to thank you for creating that insight. I now understand much better where you come from with regards to several of your critique points. The LGAT format still confuses me a bit though. I'm by nature very skeptical and cautious. The NWTA weekend was very interesting and I enjoyed it, but it wasn't that impressive as you sum it up to be. Admittedly, some parts were intense, but the majority wasn't that impacting. I don't see how the 'brainwashing', that you seem most afraid off, took place. My views aren't that different from before the weekend. My views might change slightly as a result of our conversation, but that doesn't mean that you brainwashed me. As information comes in I may decide to change my opinion about certain things. I guess my views were aligned with the LGAT before the NWTA which would explain why they didn't change much.

I haven't read up on Bill Kauth or any of the other founders. I'm actually not that interested in what their personal convictions are. I care much more about what the MKP promotes or stands for today. I can see his personal believes which I can understand, but wouldn't repeat them as it isn't my belief system. Debating what he expresses is an entirely different story where you actually debate duality/non-duality (aka Advaita) and you may even end up debating quantum physics and the existence of a holographic universe where reality is a mere construct of our consciousness. I read a few things on that topic in the link you send about psychiatric disturbances. I didn't realize that people could take it so literal without good understanding of what it means. I too have said in the past and will say in the future that reality may not be what we think it is. That nothing is real. But that's meant as a hypothesis and I wouldn't encourage anyone to jump of a building!

I didn't know that Bill Kauth refers to the Matrix as well. I'm still new to MKP but have used the Matrix as an explantion/analogy to other people ever since the movie came out. Rest assured, me and Bill are not the only ones that see the underlying story in the Matrix which is actually a very old tale in a hyper modern coating. It doesn't serve as proof of anything. The Matrix has not been mentioned on the weekend, in any manual or during any I-Group session.

Four years ago, three years prior to the first time I heard of MKP, I sat down with my dad to analyze the movie and discuss all the different underlying aspects that are used in the movie. Very basically it boils down to the following (but people have written pages and pages about it);
1. neo, anagram for the one, is in a sleep/dream state
2. awakening (in the movie dramatically done by Morpheus, named after the Greek god of sleep/dreams)
3. confusion in the new state which is not pretty at all
4. realizing that the life he had was fake and his reality was just a construct
5. learning to deal with the new reality that is not nice but at least real
6. learning to fit in a society of 'dreamers'
7. neo starts to slowly lead the people that are ready out of the dream state into the real reality. Or, in different words, he is 'freeing minds'. The movie explains and assumes that not everybody is ready for that move and some people would rather go back to the dream state even after they are freed. Explicitly displayed by the 'betrayal' of Cypher.

This theme is a common theme accepted by many people. I suppose LGATs accept the same order of things or view the world in a similar way, and thus it can be expected that they use the same analogy. I can clearly see how there is a difference between who people are, who they want to be and how they think other people want them to be. I sometimes call that a dream state, I can call that 'wearing a mask', I can call that a TV show or I use the Matrix analogy whatever fits the situation (that in any case boils down to awareness of their behavior). In other contexts I would refer to it as 'know thyself' (a statement commonly placed above the entrance of Free mason lodge).

Several of these points are addressed in the psych report you linked, especially points 4 and 7 are apparently dangerous. It makes me wonder how many people jumped of a building without doing an LGAT but after watching the Matrix?

FYI; The link I supplied wasn't to show a proper study into LGATs, you asked for a study that was funded by a LGAT. If you carefully read the article you'll see that you can use large parts of it in your postings against LGATs.

I'm actually curious to know how you feel about the underlying story in the matrix? Did you see it?

In summary, I have learned a lot about LGATs thanks to you. I understand the process much better now and I understand what you mean with a belief system (the Matrix concept). Your belief system is apparently quiet different. Would you mind sharing a bit?

I also realize that my views before the weekend weren't that different from the LGAT concept of reality which may explain why the impact of the weekend was limited. FYI; I study quantum physics as a hobby, was thrilled to learn about the double slit experiment and I follow the great thinkers in physics. The holographic principle in physics isn't too hard to understand (look it up) and the double slit in physics proves how reality doesn't exist until it is observed. Both parts of physics shine a light on our reality. There is a good chance we will have to redefine reality in the next decade. Just bear in mind that regardless of the outcome, a knife will cut and hurt you and you will die when you jump in front of a train going at top speed! So I guess I subscribe to the principles used by LGATs and thus the principles used by MKP.

I can see how it is useful to 'know thyself'... Would you disagree?

Free_Thinker:

The subject of this thread is not "The Matrix", "duality" or "quantum physics". The subject of this thread is MKP.

It would be impossible for me to "brainwash" you through this message board, as I don't control your environment, exposure to information and associations, such as an LGAT does during a "weekend".

If you want to believe in Kauth's "cosmic truth" and support his process of indoctrination through MKP and I-groups that's your choice.

But Kauth is promotingit is a belief system through MKP as demonstrated by both your statements concerning "concepts" and Kauth's explanation of his work through the linked interview.

If rererences to "The Matrix" movie by both you and and Kauth are merely a coincidence -- OK. An interesting coincidence.

FYI -- The Wachowski brothers created "The Matrix" and they did the Forum at Landmark Education. That jargon and mindset apparently seems to suffuse their move and in part provides its underlying philosophy or belief system.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

An LGAT basically downloads the belief system of its creator or creators to the participants as a "one size fits all" cure for whatever problem or problems they have, e.g. lonliness, fustration, relationships, work, etc. In this sense it is similar to a Christian saying "Jesus saved me". But unlike Christians who freely admit that their salvation is based upon faith and that Chritianity is a religion, LGATs and their devotees try to convince people otherwise.

The problem is that there is no basis whatsover to demonstrate that LGATs actually work objectively, only subjectively, based upon what people feel and believe. I don't know of any scientific study to prove otherwise, per previous posts. You have certainly not provided any proof here whatsoever, though asked repeatedly to do so.

At this point you are becoming rather redundant and my reply is therefore largely redundant.

You don't have anything new to say that is on topic. And changing the subject is not relevant to this thread.

You say, "The NWTA weekend was very interesting and I enjoyed it..."

OK. Whatever floats your boat.

"I don't see how the 'brainwashing', that you seem most afraid off, took place."

Again, read this thread from the beginning and the links provided. Based upon the script used by MKP in my opinion they are engaged in coercive persuasion through their weekend. If you have read this thread from the beginning and examined all the supporting material linked and still "don't see" in my opinion that's denial, not being a "free thinker".

"I guess my views were aligned with the LGAT before the NWTA which would explain why they didn't change much."

OK. MKP makes you feel good and you want to feel good. It's a good fit for you and makes you feel happy. But that doesn't change the facts, e.g. wrongful death lawsuit, bad press, complaints and inherent problems with LGATs.

Dear rrmoderator,

I guess we've sorted our differences out. On a few final notes, I don't believe in Kauth's 'cosmic truth'. I have my own ideas and I wish/want everyone else to have their's. It's simply wrong to assume that a LGAT 'downloads the belief system of a single person' into a cure for everyone. I said it before but apparently need to say to again; participants aren't sick/weak/in need of help and therefore don't need a cure. The LGAT doesn't cure them of anything as there wasn't anything to be cured of in the first place. The comparison with 'Jesus saved me' is not based on anything. No one gets saved or cured during or after an LGAT. I don't to say that MKP saved me, it helped me creating awareness on a new level.

Quote

The problem is that there is no basis whatsover to demonstrate that LGATs actually work objectively, only subjectively, based upon what people feel and believe. I don't know of any scientific study to prove otherwise, per previous posts. You have certainly not provided any proof here whatsoever, though asked repeatedly to do so.

I never said there was evidence and I agreed that objective studies would be helpful. All I know is that creating self awareness or improving self awareness is beneficial to everyone. If an LGAT works for half the people, I'm pretty satisfied. If you know of better methods, I'm open to suggestions.

I actually have done the NWTA myself and don't need to rely on information provided by others or material that is out of context to make up my mind. That said, it helps to read stories from others and I'm simply intrigued by all the stories 'where things went sideways'. And I have a serious interest to find out how things could have gone so wrong for some people. But to call it brainwashing (or your preferred term coercive persuasion) really goes to far. What religious parents do to kids is brainwashing. What some regimes do to their people is brainwashing. What men can do in certain closed communities (e.g. tribes where women have to be circumcised in order to bear children) is brainwashing. Brainwashing usually doesn't happen in two days but takes years and it's important to note that isolation of the 'victim' is a MUST. None of this is the case for an LGAT. That is not denial but a simple observation. LGATs aren't brainwashing.

MKP doesn't make me feel good, but the things I learned and still discover help me find peace as many of the disturbances go away.

A tip: if you really want to be able to make a good argument against an LGAT, do a weekend with all 'your shields up' and report on all the abuse that you have seen FIRST hand. Even better, try to document it with hidden cameras and put it all on YouTube. That's an invite! If you didn't see any abuse or brainwashing, feel free to report on that too...

Thanks for giving me the space to air my thoughts and spending all the time that you did. Rick Ross is a respectable man who has done lots of good work with deprogramming people that were caught by cults. But as you have freely admitted, MKP or LGATs aren't cults. They don't use brainwashing and deprogramming is not required even though a few people may get episodes of grandiosity. I agree that no studies have been done that show positive effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

I wish you all the best, it was a pleasure conversing!

Free_Thinker:

"It's simply wrong to assume that a LGAT 'downloads the belief system of a single person' into a cure for everyone."

The MKP belief system ("consmic truth") was cobbled together by Kauth and his associates, apparently as previously pointed out largely based upon other LGATs, such as Sterling Institute of Relationship and Landmark Education, which Sterling is largely based upon along with the writings of Robert Bly.

"...participants aren't sick/weak/in need of help and therefore don't need a cure."

The study you linked to previosly posits that premise, i.e. people that are troubled seek LGAT relief. But I would agree that many people participating in LGATs due to the LGAT's secrecy and the secrecy of people that recruit them, don't really know exactly what they are getting into. This is one of the glaring problems with many LGATs like MKP.

You conclude that an " LGAT doesn't cure them of anything ".

Agreed. And there is not scientific peer-reviwed and published study that objectively demonstrates otherwise.

You argue that " LGATs aren't brainwashing."

IMO -- Many LGATs, such as Sterling, Landmark and MKP, do use coercive persuasion techniques. The script used by MKP offers many parallels as any objective reader can see by going back to the beginning of this thread and reading through it. You have decided to reject and/or deny that evidence.

"MKP doesn't make me feel good, but the things I learned and still discover help me find peace as many of the disturbances go away."

This is the same thing. That is, finding "peace" thrugh MKP is a good feeling. And the "disturbances" you cite seems to imply that you had problems, which you feel MKP somehow resolved by making them "go away". This wold be in line with the supposed "cure" offered by LGATs to whatever life problems or disturbances people feel need to be resolved.

Some LGATs have been called "cults", while others have been called "cult-like". Many have been described as engaged in "brainwashing" participants.

You claim that "deprogramming is not required" concerning LGATs.

However, I have been reatained repeatedly to do interventions ("deprogramming) regarding LGATs. And I know of other intervention professionals that have handled numerous LGAT interventions. Frankly, there is a long history of intervention work associated with LGATs.

IMO -- MKP is not a "cult", though Kauth and his pretensions seem somewhat messianic. MKP in my opinion does use cult-like techniques of coercive persuasion. Also, it seems to me that there is deception involved in the recruitment process leading up to the MKP weekend, i.e. participants don't know in detail what they have signed up for, for example that everything is so carefully scripted.

Finally you say, "if you really want to be able to make a good argument against an LGAT, do a weekend with all 'your shields up' and report on all the abuse that you have seen FIRST hand."

This is usually the last attempt of an LGAT apologist to shift the focus away from the LGAT to the critic and some imagined duty to do the training. The assumption is that if you have not experienced the LGAT you have no basis to criticize the LGAT.

First of all you don't need to smoke, drive drunk or travel to a troubled country that you have been warned about by the State Department, to know that it's a bad idea.

Research, news reports, consumer reports, etc. make that unnecessary.

There is plenty of information available about LGATs and MKP specifically to make an informed decision, without paying to attend an MKP event. Also, as you have demonstrated by your repeated rejection and/or denial concerning the complaints against MKP, even if someone does the weekend and they come away critical you are liely to essentially dismiss their criticism anyway. You have even tried to spin away the siginficance of aa wrongful death lawsuit filed against MKP and the settlement paid to the plaintiff by MKP.

Your posts have repeatedly demonstrated that people influenced by MKP and its I-groups seem less likely to be critical and free thinkers. This would seem to also add weight to the "brainwashineg" allegations linked to LGATs and to MKP.

Again, I have received very serious complaints about MKP.

Given MKP's deeply troubled history of complaints, bad press and the wrongful death lawsuit repeatedly cited, I would not recommend MKP to anyone, for anything under any circumstances.

Inspirational feelings can be manipulated.

I do not wish to debate these issues at length or try to talk people out of MKP if that is truly what they believe is best for them. I just have some strong feelings I need to get off my chest after going to a MeetUp group that left me feeling... "yucky" (Sorry. I do not have the exact word available).

I just want to provide my information about a "Mens Group" I joined and went to for the first time. This mens group was listed on MeetUp.com and the description was so vague I was a little frightened I was going to walk in on some all mens orgy or something. I was actually looking for a Spiritual group made up of men since most that I attend are all women (apparently more spiritual). When I first arrived I was greeted and welcomed, and within the first few minutes was asked if I was familiar with the "Mankind Program". I said I was not and the gentlemen said "don't worry you will be". Obviously this was a group used to feed newbies into MKP. The meeting was very scripted with times for each part written precisely including a timer that would go off when your turn to talk was over. I noticed as we went around from person to person that the majority of them mentioned the MKP program and how it was the best thing in their life and that these "Men Meetings" were the best thing in their life. They used almost the same words which started to make me feel a little alienated.

When we entered the open forum round I noticed that all the MKP graduates seemed almost intentionally to not let the newbies have a moment to say anything. Whether on purpose or not it definitely made me feel alienated from the group and left me wanting to get in. I do not know much about indoctrination techniques but this would be a good one. Leave someone on the outside with only one way in, that in being participation in MKP.

I also noticed that during the open forum that words describing mens genitalia were used quite often in describing there feelings, troubles, anxieties and pleasures. We went through a round of what makes you feel like a man, and again many used this as an excuse to explain the fascinating things they could accomplish with their genitalia. I did notice that many of the men described the use of violence or violent tendencies in those events that made them feel manly. One man mentioned he most felt like a man when he was just seconds away from attacking an innocent man from behind with a tire iron because he almost mistakingly walked into the women's restroom at a gas station where his wife had just gone(most people would have just said,"hey buddy, wrong door"). No wonder why this world is constantly at war(this is not a bash on our military merely an observation). Others described their manliness in terms of paying for women, opening doors, being the wage earner, etc. and others described it in term of how they stand up to the women in their life and say NO. One actually said he feels most like a man by leaving the toilet seat up, which after reading some posts sounds like it comes out of the manual.

When after and hour of being left out of the discussion I decided to burst in and interrupt to have my say, they actually said something that made me feel like I had broken protocol, but I continued anyways. After saying some things about living with women as equals and blah blah less segregated, blah blah the universal message is love, more blah blah less violence etc etc. They looked at me like I had two heads. I found it ironic or actually hypocritical that the sheet they handed out and the posts I have read describe non-violent behavior. These were some of the angriest, violent men I had ever met in one group. Every one of them was angry about something. My observation after the fact and reading what goes on at the MKP weekend is they bring out latent anger in the participants and fail to show them how to release it, or just angry men are attracted to this group.

I made one observation that is just a curiosity. Let me preface this with the absolute fact that I am not prejudice or biased in anyway. Just acutely aware of the demographics of places I go, strictly as a marketing tool for the things I do. The county I live in has a population that is 10% black (Yes, I said black. My friends are offended when I call them African American) and less than 3% Jewish. There was not a black to be found in the group nor in any of their group photos, and the group was comprised of 70% Jewish men ( One of them asked who had been bar mitzvahed). Though I did not take a poll, 40% of them mentioned current or past military service. Is this just this one group or is this a trend? Again I am curious of what attracts men to such a group.

As the group came to a close they asked those of us that were new to give them our email address separate from the Meetup site because they had some information they wanted to send us. I removed myself from the group the next day after reading up on MKP so I never received the special email though I assume it was to be recruiting information for MKP.

I am one who does not believe that the ends justify the means. I do not believe that just because these men left MKP on Sunday thinking they were better for the experience means that it was OK to expose them to a verbally violent confrontation (I just find the nudity silly). I know of equally successful programs that help men and women confront their demons through the use of love and sharing and without a single case of suicide or PTSD and without the need to find someone or some gender to blame for their personal problems.

I apologize for any comments I may have made that anyone may find offensive or if I have said anything that compromises someone else's beliefs. I believe everyone has the right to choose what is right for him but does not have the right to force his beliefs on another, which is what I feel MKP does. Please think twice before subjecting yourself to a weekend that may cause permanent emotional and mental harm. I am just one guy with one opinion who may just be full of BS. Be Well.

Hi everyone. I am totally new here. My husband just come back from this course (in Germany) and I am totally confused. I can not recognize him. Can somebody help me by advice or information, anything???? Our marriage is falling a part. He lost his heart, and he is behaving totally strange.