Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: August 26, 2012 01:28AM
I understand where you are coming fromQuote
bjwJust to prove that I did say what my soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is in an earlier post in this thread, here is what I said in September 2010 on page 6 of this thread, underline added for emphasis:Quote
BraveHeart
I have read your objection to what you called Lordship salvation maybe you could enlighten us me to what is your Soteriology the doctrines of salvation.Quote
bjw
Now, I do not consider this the Gospel because it is an authoritarian cult that gets people by deception and ruins lives. My view is that our salvation, that is, us not burning in hell eternally, is only accomplished through the blood of Christ, not through any works or merit-based system, and not by learning any theology or going to any church. My view of the function of churches is to give us a place to grow spiritually and do works not because we're trying to prove we are saved but because we are receiving blessings from a loving Heavenly Father that are both in this world and in the rewards we will receive in the world to come. Remeber, the Bible says salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
You believe that simply hearing the concept of that Jesus died for your sins automatically is gets you out of Hell kind of like a Rob Bell or Joel Osteen? You do not need to study the bible, your good to go!
I don't listen or read much of John MacArthur yet your blog has encouraged me to dig in and research his teachings looking at the theology he embraces.
I have not found anything that would suggest that a believer has to work out ones salvation by doing this or that, praying so many times each day, giving $$, Serving in a ministry.
What I hear from you is your a good person and some how John MacArthur simply get up your nose.
Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
gracetowho?
()
Date: August 26, 2012 01:32AM
Quote
BraveHeartI understand where you are coming fromQuote
bjwJust to prove that I did say what my soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is in an earlier post in this thread, here is what I said in September 2010 on page 6 of this thread, underline added for emphasis:Quote
BraveHeart
I have read your objection to what you called Lordship salvation maybe you could enlighten us me to what is your Soteriology the doctrines of salvation.Quote
bjw
Now, I do not consider this the Gospel because it is an authoritarian cult that gets people by deception and ruins lives. My view is that our salvation, that is, us not burning in hell eternally, is only accomplished through the blood of Christ, not through any works or merit-based system, and not by learning any theology or going to any church. My view of the function of churches is to give us a place to grow spiritually and do works not because we're trying to prove we are saved but because we are receiving blessings from a loving Heavenly Father that are both in this world and in the rewards we will receive in the world to come. Remeber, the Bible says salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
You believe that simply hearing the concept of that Jesus died for your sins automatically is gets you out of Hell kind of like a Rob Bell or Joel Osteen? You do not need to study the bible, your good to go!
I don't listen or read much of John MacArthur yet your blog has encouraged me to dig in and research his teachings looking at the theology he embraces.
I have not found anything that would suggest that a believer has to work out ones salvation by doing this or that, praying so many times each day, giving $$, Serving in a ministry.
What I hear from you is your a good person and some how John MacArthur simply get up your nose.
Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
gracetowho?
()
Date: August 26, 2012 01:49AM
Quote
BraveHeartI understand where you are coming fromQuote
bjwJust to prove that I did say what my soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is in an earlier post in this thread, here is what I said in September 2010 on page 6 of this thread, underline added for emphasis:Quote
BraveHeart
I have read your objection to what you called Lordship salvation maybe you could enlighten us me to what is your Soteriology the doctrines of salvation.Quote
bjw
Now, I do not consider this the Gospel because it is an authoritarian cult that gets people by deception and ruins lives. My view is that our salvation, that is, us not burning in hell eternally, is only accomplished through the blood of Christ, not through any works or merit-based system, and not by learning any theology or going to any church. My view of the function of churches is to give us a place to grow spiritually and do works not because we're trying to prove we are saved but because we are receiving blessings from a loving Heavenly Father that are both in this world and in the rewards we will receive in the world to come. Remeber, the Bible says salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
You believe that simply hearing the concept of that Jesus died for your sins automatically is gets you out of Hell kind of like a Rob Bell or Joel Osteen? You do not need to study the bible, your good to go!
I don't listen or read much of John MacArthur yet your blog has encouraged me to dig in and research his teachings looking at the theology he embraces.
I have not found anything that would suggest that a believer has to work out ones salvation by doing this or that, praying so many times each day, giving $$, Serving in a ministry.
What I hear from you is your a good person and some how John MacArthur simply get up your nose.
Hi BHeart,
Protestant theology is:
Faith. in. Christ. equals. salvation. lest any man should boast.
That God has good works for us to do that we. SHOULD. walk. in. them.
Not MUST, not enforced, not manipulated, not shamed, not
spied on, slandered, accused, shunned,
and not according to MCA's EXTRABIBLICAL definition of
what a Christian should be.
He's not up our nose, but we have all been jammed into
a dark place, of his making, and are exposing it.
Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather
expose them.
Very Truly Yours,
GTW?
Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
Marmy
()
Date: August 26, 2012 02:18AM
Quote
BraveHeartI understand where you are coming fromQuote
bjwJust to prove that I did say what my soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is in an earlier post in this thread, here is what I said in September 2010 on page 6 of this thread, underline added for emphasis:Quote
BraveHeart
I have read your objection to what you called Lordship salvation maybe you could enlighten us me to what is your Soteriology the doctrines of salvation.Quote
bjw
Now, I do not consider this the Gospel because it is an authoritarian cult that gets people by deception and ruins lives. My view is that our salvation, that is, us not burning in hell eternally, is only accomplished through the blood of Christ, not through any works or merit-based system, and not by learning any theology or going to any church. My view of the function of churches is to give us a place to grow spiritually and do works not because we're trying to prove we are saved but because we are receiving blessings from a loving Heavenly Father that are both in this world and in the rewards we will receive in the world to come. Remeber, the Bible says salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
You believe that simply hearing the concept of that Jesus died for your sins automatically is gets you out of Hell kind of like a Rob Bell or Joel Osteen? You do not need to study the bible, your good to go!
I don't listen or read much of John MacArthur yet your blog has encouraged me to dig in and research his teachings looking at the theology he embraces.
I have not found anything that would suggest that a believer has to work out ones salvation by doing this or that, praying so many times each day, giving $$, Serving in a ministry.
What I hear from you is your a good person and some how John MacArthur simply get up your nose.
Tactic #32: When your effort to browbeat the lessers isn't going well, try condescending remarks in an effort to diminish the value of the other person's feelings and opinions. Remember, their feelings and opinions are irrelevant because they don't see things your way. Besides, if they're really believers, what are they doing with feelings and opinions anyway?
Vexed
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: August 26, 2012 04:00AM
I think Braveheart simply can't conceive of the fact that well-known preachers can be in error and that Christians can be hurt by that error.
Let's face it: Lordship Salvation should really be called Lord-it-over-the-flock Salvation, since it leads to a handful of CONTROL FREAKS!!!!! being in charge, being the final authority, being at the top of the food chain, BEING ABOVE QUESTIONING, etc.!!
Who does MacA answer to?
Would coming across as callous and arrogant more that 3 times be counted as sin?
Let's bring the issue of "balance" into the conversation: The majority of the people I've met who are into MacA are NOT balanced. Todd Freil (sp?) on "Wretched Radio" jokingly refers to MacA as the Evangelical Pope and that is EXACTLY how his "fans" view MacA. It's like every thing MacA says is ex-cathedra (sp? Sorry, I'm exhausted as I write this.)
Let's face it: Lordship Salvation should really be called Lord-it-over-the-flock Salvation, since it leads to a handful of CONTROL FREAKS!!!!! being in charge, being the final authority, being at the top of the food chain, BEING ABOVE QUESTIONING, etc.!!
Who does MacA answer to?
Would coming across as callous and arrogant more that 3 times be counted as sin?
Let's bring the issue of "balance" into the conversation: The majority of the people I've met who are into MacA are NOT balanced. Todd Freil (sp?) on "Wretched Radio" jokingly refers to MacA as the Evangelical Pope and that is EXACTLY how his "fans" view MacA. It's like every thing MacA says is ex-cathedra (sp? Sorry, I'm exhausted as I write this.)
Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
bjw
()
Date: August 26, 2012 08:51AM
You've gotta be kidding me. Anyone that went back and read everything I said in this thread would know this is not the case. Even though nobody on this forum knows me, you could easily piece together my theology (and this isn't it) by what I've said on here. This is nothing but a cookie-cutter Lordship response, such as "simply hearing the concept of Jesus" etc. This is not what people believe outside of the Lordship camp, but it is what MacArthur teaches they believe, so I would expect this from a Lordship believer.Quote
BraveHeartI understand where you are coming fromQuote
bjwJust to prove that I did say what my soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is in an earlier post in this thread, here is what I said in September 2010 on page 6 of this thread, underline added for emphasis:Quote
BraveHeart
I have read your objection to what you called Lordship salvation maybe you could enlighten us me to what is your Soteriology the doctrines of salvation.Quote
bjw
Now, I do not consider this the Gospel because it is an authoritarian cult that gets people by deception and ruins lives. My view is that our salvation, that is, us not burning in hell eternally, is only accomplished through the blood of Christ, not through any works or merit-based system, and not by learning any theology or going to any church. My view of the function of churches is to give us a place to grow spiritually and do works not because we're trying to prove we are saved but because we are receiving blessings from a loving Heavenly Father that are both in this world and in the rewards we will receive in the world to come. Remeber, the Bible says salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
You believe that simply hearing the concept of that Jesus died for your sins automatically is gets you out of Hell kind of like a Rob Bell or Joel Osteen? You do not need to study the bible, your good to go!
I don't listen or read much of John MacArthur yet your blog has encouraged me to dig in and research his teachings looking at the theology he embraces.
I have not found anything that would suggest that a believer has to work out ones salvation by doing this or that, praying so many times each day, giving $$, Serving in a ministry.
What I hear from you is your a good person and some how John MacArthur simply get up your nose.
Remember what I said in an earlier post, this confirms it:
Quote
bjw
This is a common tactic they use because the idea is that if you disagree with MacArthur there must be something in your life or beliefs you are not talking about. They keep asking to get differing responses, then get what your beliefs are and explain what is wrong with them in light of Lordship Salvation, and try to find contradictions between your various responses. I know all of this because I lived it for two years. I have seen every debate tactic they have.
I have now been getting PMs (not from Braveheart though) asking me what denomination I currently belong to? What my current theology is? Who I consider to be a Christian or not?
Well, let me ask you, should it really matter what I think? What I think the Gospel is or isn't is not the issue here. I did not start an over-authoritarian organization. I have not made people refuse medical treatment. People did not commit suicide while I was counseling them. I did not build a museum to myself. I have never made people sign over thousands of dollars to me under false pretenses telling them they were going to get to go to a non-denominational Christian college. I have not told college students they are not saved unless they leave their comfort zone and serve a mission in a dangerous area. I have never used physical violence against someone who didn't agree with me.
Ask yourselves this, if MacArthur was really above reproach, would any kind of ad hominem (personal) attack be necessary? It would never be necessary to find out dirt about the other person just so you can discredit them. You could simply tell the truth about it and absolve MacArthur and accomplices of any blame. BUT YOU CAN'T! Why is that?
It would never be necessary to accuse all other churches of believing the same thing and lumping them into one group. Why was Charismatic Chaos, the RC Sproul debates, the ECT debates, and other personal attacks carried out on other ministries necessary? Shouldn't the truth hold up on its own without attacking others?
The issue at hand here is the topic of this thread. "Is it a cult?" had questions about this group and started a thread about it. I actually started a thread about it years earlier but got no responses, but I checked back here for many months until I saw that someone was talking about it, and then I came in and told some of what I know. The poster named "Is it a cult?" seemed to have his question answered, but it bothered you guys so much you couldn't let it go without discrediting me. This thread would have died two years ago had you have left it alone, but your attacks have kept it at the top of the threadlist. Following policy has only served to hurt your cause.
"Ex-members of bjw's church" was not the title of the thread, it is "Ex-members of John MacArthur's church." When I have done the things that have been mentioned in this post, you can then start a thread about me. However, the subject at hand is MacArthur's church, which is the group that goes by Grace Community Church, Masters Communication, IBEX, Masters College, and whatever other name they use, in the countercult community it is known as "Lordship Salvation." Yet, you won't find this phrase on any of their brochures.
I do not hate anybody that is in this cult. I am not an evil person despite what they have told you. I have not been hired by the psychologists, charismatics, mormons, free-gracers, catholics, masons, evolutionists, or anybody else he has villified.
I had many friends in this group and I cried for weeks when most of my friends severed ties with (shunned) me when I left. I had friends that were seminary students, executives, professors, missionaries, ministers, as well as students. I do not hold anything against any of these people. They are victims and deserve to be treated with human dignity. The people that are at fault are the theological professors and MacArthur for coming up with the salvation doctrines, and the former psychologists staffing the Nouthetic Counseling department (Wayne Mack, etc.) for coming up with the counseling doctrines. This needs to be exposed for what it is. I showed links proving everything I was talking about.
I am in the process of starting a website/message board for people that have been victimized or are still in and looking for a way out. People need help, and I may have been allowed by the Lord to go through this just so I can help other people get out of it. I believe God has a reason for everything. (that's more than "simple hearing," isn't it?)
Please think about everything I said here. I will pray for you, all of you, that you will find the truth about Lordship Salvation and MacArthur.
Re: Re:What is the rub?
Posted by:
bjw
()
Date: August 26, 2012 09:48AM
I couldn't have said it better myself.Quote
Marmy
Tactic #32: When your effort to browbeat the lessers isn't going well, try condescending remarks in an effort to diminish the value of the other person's feelings and opinions. Remember, their feelings and opinions are irrelevant because they don't see things your way. Besides, if they're really believers, what are they doing with feelings and opinions anyway?
What is hypocritical is if you go on other topics on this forum you will see MacArthur's supporters are attacking other churches (many of which probably deserve the criticism they get), however, since they are at odds with MacArthur it is okay to attack and expose them. What I don't understand is when others do the same exposing things about their group that are wrong, they go on the defensive.
I myself have questioned things about my current denomination. I even stopped going for a month because I disagreed with something the church did. If I would have been a member of MacArthur's group, I would have been severely disciplined for doing so, even to the extent of being shunned.
I totally agree with you Marmy, when someone can't tell the truth about their own group they always have to dig up dirt on the other person to try to diminish the value of their arguments. Any high school or college debate teacher will tell you anyone who does that is losing the argument. So, it's good to know we're winning!
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
bjw
()
Date: August 26, 2012 10:07AM
There's been another death in the TMC Community. I thought I would post about it on here. I think we should reserve passing judgment on this until the authorities decide what actually happened:
Urgent Press Release -- Student Accident
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Santa Clarita, Calif. – August 23, 2012 – Students from The Master's College were participating in a recreational trip to the beach on Wednesday afternoon. At approximately 4:50 p.m., one of our students was involved in an accident. The student had been digging in the sand when he became trapped. The Ventura County fire department was called. The student was rescued and transported to the hospital where he was later pronounced dead.
The college is focused at this time on caring for the student's immediate family, his local church family, and our student body. We have confidence through the student’s testimony that his trust was in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and we take comfort in knowing that he is with the Lord. It is our prayer that our God will provide comfort to all those who are grieving at this time.
Contact:
Office of the President
Dr. Mark Tatlock, Executive Vice-President & Provost
Urgent Press Release -- Student Accident
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Santa Clarita, Calif. – August 23, 2012 – Students from The Master's College were participating in a recreational trip to the beach on Wednesday afternoon. At approximately 4:50 p.m., one of our students was involved in an accident. The student had been digging in the sand when he became trapped. The Ventura County fire department was called. The student was rescued and transported to the hospital where he was later pronounced dead.
The college is focused at this time on caring for the student's immediate family, his local church family, and our student body. We have confidence through the student’s testimony that his trust was in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and we take comfort in knowing that he is with the Lord. It is our prayer that our God will provide comfort to all those who are grieving at this time.
Contact:
Office of the President
Dr. Mark Tatlock, Executive Vice-President & Provost
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
bjw
()
Date: August 26, 2012 01:34PM
This message was e-mailed to the community today, it tells a little more about what happened. I feel so sad for Paul and his family and I am confident he is now in Heaven, and I also hope that an investigation is made so we can know exactly what took place. Please keep all involved in this incident in your prayers:
Dear TMC Alum,
I am writing to inform you of the passing of one of our new students on Wednesday afternoon, and to ask for your prayers as we begin the process of walking through this difficult time.
While at the beach on Wednesday, a new student named Paul Sang was digging a large pit in the sand. While Paul was in the pit, the wall of sand around the pit collapsed in on top of him. An immediate attempt was made to extricate Paul, while at the same time emergency personnel were contacted. The paramedics and fire department arrived within 5 minutes and were able to extricate Paul from the sand. He was unconscious and not breathing so CPR was administered on site. He was unresponsive and taken immediately to the hospital. Upon arrival at the hospital he was pronounced dead.
Please pray for the family of Paul. Paul was originally from Seoul, South Korea, but had lived in the Santa Clarita Valley for the last five years. He had a vibrant Christian testimony, and had been discipled by a former TMC student, who was now his youth pastor. Paul’s church family, who had the joy of having him as a part of their body for the last five years, is also grieving this loss. Details regarding a memorial service are being determined in consultation with his parents and church.
This is a heartbreaking occurrence for our students, our faculty, and our staff. It is at times such as this that we are most grateful for the grace of our Lord. It is in His strength alone that we will endure this trial.
Trusting God in this time of loss,
Mark Tatlock
Executive Vice President & Provost
Dear TMC Alum,
I am writing to inform you of the passing of one of our new students on Wednesday afternoon, and to ask for your prayers as we begin the process of walking through this difficult time.
While at the beach on Wednesday, a new student named Paul Sang was digging a large pit in the sand. While Paul was in the pit, the wall of sand around the pit collapsed in on top of him. An immediate attempt was made to extricate Paul, while at the same time emergency personnel were contacted. The paramedics and fire department arrived within 5 minutes and were able to extricate Paul from the sand. He was unconscious and not breathing so CPR was administered on site. He was unresponsive and taken immediately to the hospital. Upon arrival at the hospital he was pronounced dead.
Please pray for the family of Paul. Paul was originally from Seoul, South Korea, but had lived in the Santa Clarita Valley for the last five years. He had a vibrant Christian testimony, and had been discipled by a former TMC student, who was now his youth pastor. Paul’s church family, who had the joy of having him as a part of their body for the last five years, is also grieving this loss. Details regarding a memorial service are being determined in consultation with his parents and church.
This is a heartbreaking occurrence for our students, our faculty, and our staff. It is at times such as this that we are most grateful for the grace of our Lord. It is in His strength alone that we will endure this trial.
Trusting God in this time of loss,
Mark Tatlock
Executive Vice President & Provost
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
teacher
()
Date: November 08, 2012 02:29AM
I am concerned.the followers who lead the churches,at least the one i know, are liars and dictators.i am sadly in europe.
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