Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
CarlKolchak
()
Date: March 15, 2012 12:53AM
A former pastor of mine who received his M.Div from Master's Seminary, whom I have mentioned elsewhere, had this to say on his blog about salvation:
"Believe and Repent are the Two Sides to the Coin called "Conversion"
These two commands are two sides of the coin called conversion. A person perceives and feels that what they have thought before is no longer the truth, but that what they have heard in the gospel is, in fact, true. This, in turn, is followed by a decision to stop thinking and doing what they did before, and start thinking and doing what Jesus tells them. When this happens, they 'convert' to Christianity. So the gospel is a command to convert: "stop doing what you are doing now...stop thinking the way you are thinking now and start doing what Jesus tells you to do...start thinking the way God tells you to." The gospel brings a person to a specific point in time where a decision must be made on their part as to what their future course of action will be from that point onward. So then, conversion is decisive. It is also divisive. It requires them to divide themselves from their former way of life. This is why conversion is so difficult because it brings divisive consequences to such a decision."
I had a lively exchange with him on this, in which I gave him ample opportunity to explain this in a manner that approached orthodoxy, but he only entrenched himself more thoroughly in the above position. I find this heretical, works salvation writ large. It probably came in part from teachings said pastor was exposed to in youth, but it appears by the info on this thread it was bolstered by his years at McArthur's sem, which I have to now regard as cultic, probably heretical.
"Believe and Repent are the Two Sides to the Coin called "Conversion"
These two commands are two sides of the coin called conversion. A person perceives and feels that what they have thought before is no longer the truth, but that what they have heard in the gospel is, in fact, true. This, in turn, is followed by a decision to stop thinking and doing what they did before, and start thinking and doing what Jesus tells them. When this happens, they 'convert' to Christianity. So the gospel is a command to convert: "stop doing what you are doing now...stop thinking the way you are thinking now and start doing what Jesus tells you to do...start thinking the way God tells you to." The gospel brings a person to a specific point in time where a decision must be made on their part as to what their future course of action will be from that point onward. So then, conversion is decisive. It is also divisive. It requires them to divide themselves from their former way of life. This is why conversion is so difficult because it brings divisive consequences to such a decision."
I had a lively exchange with him on this, in which I gave him ample opportunity to explain this in a manner that approached orthodoxy, but he only entrenched himself more thoroughly in the above position. I find this heretical, works salvation writ large. It probably came in part from teachings said pastor was exposed to in youth, but it appears by the info on this thread it was bolstered by his years at McArthur's sem, which I have to now regard as cultic, probably heretical.
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
CarlKolchak
()
Date: March 15, 2012 02:58AM
Quote
CarlKolchak
A former pastor of mine who received his M.Div from Master's Seminary, whom I have mentioned elsewhere, had this to say on his blog about salvation:
"Believe and Repent are the Two Sides to the Coin called "Conversion"
These two commands are two sides of the coin called conversion. A person perceives and feels that what they have thought before is no longer the truth, but that what they have heard in the gospel is, in fact, true. This, in turn, is followed by a decision to stop thinking and doing what they did before, and start thinking and doing what Jesus tells them. When this happens, they 'convert' to Christianity. So the gospel is a command to convert: "stop doing what you are doing now...stop thinking the way you are thinking now and start doing what Jesus tells you to do...start thinking the way God tells you to." The gospel brings a person to a specific point in time where a decision must be made on their part as to what their future course of action will be from that point onward. So then, conversion is decisive. It is also divisive. It requires them to divide themselves from their former way of life. This is why conversion is so difficult because it brings divisive consequences to such a decision."
I had a lively exchange with him on this, in which I gave him ample opportunity to explain this in a manner that approached orthodoxy, but he only entrenched himself more thoroughly in the above position. I find this heretical, works salvation writ large. It probably came in part from teachings said pastor was exposed to in youth, but it appears by the info on this thread it was bolstered by his years at McArthur's sem, which I have to now regard as cultic, probably heretical.
I apologize for my previous message, I posted it before I went back and scanned many of the posts here that say this is not a forum to debate theology. Just suffice it to say that I have personal and extensive experience that at least one of those pastors educated in McArthur's seminary (he was also a former staff member at GCC, who personally knew and worked under McArthur) mirrors closely some of the doctrinal positions that others, such as Braveheart, previously had questioned whether McArthur espoused. Also, the pastor I mentioned above ran his church precisely per the GCC model discussed, with the cultic control techniques, false advertising until you're in too deep, inability to stand questioning of his positions, etc. McArthur's influence spreads far beyond Southern California, it is a style practiced by his former acolytes all over the country.
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: March 15, 2012 06:28AM
CarlKolchak-
MacArthur's dad, Jack, received an honorary award from (RACIST) Bob Jones University, and John M. attended there for 2 years in the 60's BEFORE Blacks were admitted.
Do you know if John M. has ever renounced his affiliation with BJU?
Is Mac's college/seminary cranking out "clones" like BJU ( which cranks out "Bob Jones Clones".)
Do you know of any discussion boards or support-type groups for those who have left MacA's kingdom?
Mark
MacArthur's dad, Jack, received an honorary award from (RACIST) Bob Jones University, and John M. attended there for 2 years in the 60's BEFORE Blacks were admitted.
Do you know if John M. has ever renounced his affiliation with BJU?
Is Mac's college/seminary cranking out "clones" like BJU ( which cranks out "Bob Jones Clones".)
Do you know of any discussion boards or support-type groups for those who have left MacA's kingdom?
Mark
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
CarlKolchak
()
Date: March 15, 2012 11:26PM
Quote
Mark Scheiderer
CarlKolchak-
MacArthur's dad, Jack, received an honorary award from (RACIST) Bob Jones University, and John M. attended there for 2 years in the 60's BEFORE Blacks were admitted.
Do you know if John M. has ever renounced his affiliation with BJU?
Is Mac's college/seminary cranking out "clones" like BJU ( which cranks out "Bob Jones Clones".)
Do you know of any discussion boards or support-type groups for those who have left MacA's kingdom?
Mark
I don't know if Mr. MacArthur has ever renounced his affiliation with BJU, of course if he hasn't, it's a glaring omission. Billy Graham attended BJU briefly in the 30s and in his autobiography had some pretty pointed things to say about Jones, who according to Graham once called him into his office when he was a young undergrad and told him that he was worthless and would never amount to anything. Tells you something about the prophetic powers of Mr. Jones! So far as I know, BJU has at least nominally renounced their past racism, though this is a fairly recent development and they were apparently about the last prominent institution in the U.S. to be dragged into a modern racially egalitarian position (which is far from modern because it's commanded either directly or by strong inference in both the Torah and the NT).
I know of no discussion boards for victims of MacArthurism such as exist for those damaged by Sovereign Grace or Mark Driscoll's ministry.
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: March 18, 2012 03:36AM
Carl-
Can you provide links to the boards for ex- Driscoll and Sovereign Grace? Thanks. Does Sovereign Grace put out music? I've seen the words "Sovereign Grace" at the bottom of praise and worship choruses at one church I visited. Are they "Baptist Sovereign Grace" ( hyper-Calvanists)?
Mark
Can you provide links to the boards for ex- Driscoll and Sovereign Grace? Thanks. Does Sovereign Grace put out music? I've seen the words "Sovereign Grace" at the bottom of praise and worship choruses at one church I visited. Are they "Baptist Sovereign Grace" ( hyper-Calvanists)?
Mark
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
CarlKolchak
()
Date: March 19, 2012 04:47AM
Quote
Mark Scheiderer
Carl-
Can you provide links to the boards for ex- Driscoll and Sovereign Grace? Thanks. Does Sovereign Grace put out music? I've seen the words "Sovereign Grace" at the bottom of praise and worship choruses at one church I visited. Are they "Baptist Sovereign Grace" ( hyper-Calvanists)?
Mark
There are a fair number of forums on Sovereign Grace (SGI). I don't know if they'd be considered hyper-Calvinist, but I do know they do espouse 5-point Calvinism with a semi-charismatic twist and, like New Frontiers (another authoritarian neo-Calvinist group connected informally to SGI) they do make and publish a lot of music. So they're probably the ones to which you refer.
SGI evidently tends to be exceptionally authoritarian, by many accounts downright brutal. My ex-pastor, the one with the abusive tendencies who'd matriculated at MacArthur's sem, also had a stint as a youth pastor of some sort at a SGI church in Georgia (USA).
These things all seem to be connected through the leaders.
There are evidently informal alliances between MacArthur and Mahaney, the defrocked (but by some accounts back from the dead) former leader of SGI. There are also some informal connections between Driscoll and the Acts 29 movement and Mahaney and SGI. This should be of no surprise to anyone who's kept an eye on the growing authoritarianism in reformed movements targeted towards young people and growing families. They tend to act alike and associate with one another (at least at the leadership level) because, in my opinioon, they share the same spirit (i.e., not from God). I believe, just my gut, that all of the above, while running their own fiefdoms and occasionally publicly renouncing one another over some non-substantive issue (such as MacArthur's criticism of Driscoll's potty talk from the pulpit) are closely aligned, at least in terms of writing recommendations for each others' books, promoting each other's writings, tapes, etc., providing venues for the others to speak at conferences and churches with lucrative honoraria, etc. While most of these neo-Calvinists tend to promote an exclusivist agenda in their churches, which keeps members safely away from other churches, they employ a "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" agenda at the top.
Here are some links to a few SGI fora: [sgmsurvivors.com] [sgmrefuge.com] [www.brentdetwiler.com] [spiritualtyranny.com]
Links for Driscoll: [www.facebook.com] (Facebook page "Mars Hill Seattle Survivors") [marshillrefuge.blogspot.com] [marshillchurchabuse.blogspot.com]
I've read some of these fora, not all, and certainly not every post. I can't vouch for everything, but take a look for yourself.
All the best.
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: March 20, 2012 07:11AM
Carl -
Thanks for the links and info. I'll check them out.
I know what you mean about the "mutual backscratching" that goes on. Reminds me of the verse,"Having men's person's in admiration because of advantage". That's KJV - I'm not KJV only - but it means they profit off each other.
It seems like MacAuthoritarian is ALWAYS unbalanced when he's talking/writing about issues of authority, ESPECIALLY in his (infuriatingly unbalanced) book "Slave"!!!!! His teaching on lordship salvation is unbalanced as well. Like the Grace Brethren churches in central Ohio - where I live - it seems like MacA and his clones are autocrats focused on setting up their own little kingdoms.
Mark
Thanks for the links and info. I'll check them out.
I know what you mean about the "mutual backscratching" that goes on. Reminds me of the verse,"Having men's person's in admiration because of advantage". That's KJV - I'm not KJV only - but it means they profit off each other.
It seems like MacAuthoritarian is ALWAYS unbalanced when he's talking/writing about issues of authority, ESPECIALLY in his (infuriatingly unbalanced) book "Slave"!!!!! His teaching on lordship salvation is unbalanced as well. Like the Grace Brethren churches in central Ohio - where I live - it seems like MacA and his clones are autocrats focused on setting up their own little kingdoms.
Mark
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
mhbm
()
Date: April 26, 2012 09:57AM
My daughter is a member of GCC, and she has turned into a person I don't recognize anymore. I can't even have a relationship with her without her condemning me in every way.
Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: April 28, 2012 05:08AM
mhbm-
Are there others you know where you live who have experienced similar things with relatives or friends who go the MacA's church and or school/seminary?
Have you contacted "bjw" ( see previous posters on this topic ) by private message? They would be a good one to dialogue with since they left the school/seminary and have shared some appalling things here.
Mark
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 05:10AM by Mark Scheiderer.
Are there others you know where you live who have experienced similar things with relatives or friends who go the MacA's church and or school/seminary?
Have you contacted "bjw" ( see previous posters on this topic ) by private message? They would be a good one to dialogue with since they left the school/seminary and have shared some appalling things here.
Mark
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 05:10AM by Mark Scheiderer.
Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by:
gracetowho?
()
Date: June 27, 2012 12:08PM
Quote
Mark Scheiderer
mhbm-
Are there others you know where you live who have experienced similar things with relatives or friends who go the MacA's church and or school/seminary?
Have you contacted "bjw" ( see previous posters on this topic ) by private message? They would be a good one to dialogue with since they left the school/seminary and have shared some appalling things here.
I have attended two churches 2000 miles apart with the same exact
problems, completely authored by McA, the spying, reporting, gossip slander
authoritarianism, two faced, white washed tombs, full of dead men's bones.
MacArthurism is a real, dangerous, infiltrating force in christendom
and needs to be exposed.
people need to know what they are getting into.
I will share my experiences with anyone who cares to
challenge the sinless, yet totally depraved JM
and his army of heartless Pharisees.
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