Gracetowho? -
Have you ever gone to [www.studentsreview.com] and checked out the negative comments by former Bob Jones University students? Your comments above sound similar to theirs. (MacA attended Bob Jones in the '60's and I think a lot of his persona was effected by his time there. My opinion.)
"bjw" would be a good person for you to private message.
Could you share more details?
Did the churches you went to try to intimidate people into silence?
Mark

Quote
Mark Scheiderer
Gracetowho? -
Have you ever gone to [www.studentsreview.com] and checked out the negative comments by former Bob Jones University students? Your comments above sound similar to theirs. (MacA attended Bob Jones in the '60's and I think a lot of his persona was effected by his time there. My opinion.)
"bjw" would be a good person for you to private message.
Could you share more details?
Did the churches you went to try to intimidate people into silence?
Mark

Hello, I have tried to contact any one on this site to expose
the tactics, but not sure I am doing it correctly.
But what the Master MC-A College student said about them infiltrating
churches was EXACTLY what we experienced.

1. They say they are non-denom. All doctrine statements are
completely neutral.
2. once you are there, they try to indoctrinate you with Calvinism on steriods
BUT if you say anything even slightly deviating from John Mac
you are now spied on for "charges" of anything from changing light bulbs
"without permission" to "trying to take over the church" " having pride"
with vulgar or shaming language, they are called " breaking sessions" in cults.
The purpose is not to correct you, it's to destroy your worth as
a person. The fear and eggshell walking was ridiculous.
But what was interesting and cult like- is that when you would
talk to a long time staffer, ask a question, about ANYTHING, they would
pause for like 5 seconds, think. then respond. I even asked one woman
" are you self editing
to make sure your response is perfect?"
She said Yes, I guess I do.

That is how it is in these churches.

You must be perfect, act perfect, but it is fine to lie, slander
scream and yell and spy on people who are suddenly "wolves"
(wolf - anyone not into JM worship)
and God help the person who believes in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Definitely you are demon possessed,* because everyone knows, all gifts
ceased* except of course teaching, administration, giving and helps in children's ministry!
Bjw experience was so similar to ours in 2 churches 2000 miles apart, poor guy
being in the Master- Slave college.
the only way to show you are saved is to become their slave.

Quote
Mark Scheiderer
Gracetowho? -
Have you ever gone to [www.studentsreview.com] and checked out the negative comments by former Bob Jones University students? Your comments above sound similar to theirs. (MacA attended Bob Jones in the '60's and I think a lot of his persona was effected by his time there. My opinion.)
"bjw" would be a good person for you to private message.
Could you share more details?
Did the churches you went to try to intimidate people into silence?
Mark

Sorry Mark, didn't answer one of your questions.
YES. They completely intimidated people into silence,
one
associate pastor was the church "whipping boy" -
when he witnessed
what was done to my husband in a "shaming session"
he said
it made him sick and he was going to "do something" about it
but the pastor and staffed shamed him by saying he was being
"divisive" and was ORDERED to not speak to us again!
Imagine that! a 50+ yr old man ordered to be silent and accepting it!
I feel so sad for him, he has no idea what real grace is, trying
to jump through their fire hoops.
Two ways to get along in these churches, bullying ( seared conscience)
or being bullied ( shamed - blamed and scapegoated, trying to prove you are "good enough")
the congregants know very little about what go on in staff
meetings/ leadership from what I could tell. It's all hush hush.

also how do I private message Bjw?

gracetowho? -

Nice username by the way. (For those who don't know, MacArthur's radio program is called "Grace To You".)

To PM bjw: Just find one of his posts, click on his name, and go to the "Send a Private Message" link, and you're set.

If you read the REAL, UNEDITED history of John Calvin and how he operated as the "Pope of Geneva" (Switzerland) , you'll see why many Calvanists are the way they are. A woman named Brenda Nickel wrote a book called "Covenant Theology and Calvanism's Hidden Gospel". She spent 14 years believing Reformed theology and got sick of the misery, among other things. In her EXCELLENT dvd series, "Wide Is The Gate", Caryl Matrisciana has a segment on Reformed theology in part 2. (Google to find her site to order the dvd, OR, it may already be on YouTube.)

John Calvan literally approved the torture and execution of those who didn't live up to his standards while he ruled Geneva like a dictator/CULT leader. Most Reformed/Calvanists don't know this OR they believe the historical revisionist LIES!!!!!! that have been told to try to clear Calvan's name.

I really believe that MacA's Calvanism and his past affiliation with Bob Jones University - which is NOT Calvanist - is what has made him into what he is today. He is TOTALLY unbalanced in his teachings that have to deal with any form of authority in the church, even going so far as to say that is was wrong for people to disobey the Nazi government in Germany, because the Bible teaches obediance to civil authorities!!

Mark



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2012 04:39AM by Mark Scheiderer.

Mark and Gracetowho bring up some interesting points here.

Just to contribute a few things based on my experience: MacArthur isn't the only church executive in the cult that has experience with Bob Jones University. In fact, BJU was repeatedly criticized by MacArthur's execs as what "not to do" in an organization. So, their opinion of that college is not favorable, even if MacArthur did attend there.

One example I remember was a Student Life staff member told me that he heard BJU has security guys that carry a yardstick and if you are caught being within 3 feet of someone of the opposite sex on campus you are given a fine. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but this is the type of stuff MacArthur's employees would say back when I was there.

Since I was recruited to the cult straight out of a Dutch Reformed high school, I am somewhat familiar with Calvinism. When you compare it to Lordship Salvation it is much more loose than the regimented lifestyle that goes with belonging to MacArthur's organization. For instance, I never noticed Reformed people looking at each other and constantly picking things apart to call people out to repentance on. Also, the reformed high school offered psychology courses and did not have the Nouthetic Counseling stuff in place that requires you to confess to a mentor. I would say the Lordship group is at least 10 times legalistic as the Reformed, not that I agree with either.

Also, Reformed are frequently preterists and amillenialists, which is a completely different set of eschatological (doctrine of death and how the world ends) beliefs. This may not seem like it would matter much, but to MacArthur's people it completely affects their worldview. For instance, the Reformed version of eschatology says that the Tribulation already took place circa 70 AD and we are now living in the Millenium (not a literal 1,000 years, but symbolic) where Satan is bound and the Gospel can be spread to all countries, with the world getting better and more peaceful over time. My high school taught this view in the Bible classes.

MacArthur's eschatology view, on the other hand, is premillenial and he rejects the Reformed belief of preterism. Those who believe this way see the Tribulation as still to come, with the world getting worse and worse over time. This mindset plays into the other Lordship beliefs of Christianity getting more and more corrupt as time goes on, salvation beliefs being more and more watered down, psychiatry and evolution infiltrating Christianity, a strict missions program, people being called into repentance constantly being fearful of a coming judgment and tribulation. Granted many that aren't legalists hold these eschatology views, however MacArthur's beliefs would not be compatable with the Reformed version.

As for John Calvin, I too have heard that he commited murders during his life and wasn't the saint the Reformed theologians make him out to be. He's quoted favorable in some Lordship literature, but I believe this is to give them some air of legitimacy. Lordship's predestination belief is not as extreme as what I experienced with the Reformed, I think different churches apply the TULIP in different ways, having differing views of each of the 5 points. For instance, perseverance of the saints can be interpreted by free gracers as saying saints will always persevere without loss of salvation, whereas Lordship says it means that if you do not persevere by showing evidence of works you were self-decieved and not saved.

Some students majoring in Bible got there at TMC thinking it was Reformed and wound up with their salvation being called into question over eschatological issues. There were a small handful of students that had to eat together in the cafeteria because they were getting shunned by so many people. They had a huge embarassment once when two employees were found to believe this way since they were taught it by their former church. It escalated further when a Bible professor said that amillenialism is a cancer that eats through churches in one of his classes. So, MacArthur had to hold a special chapel over the matter. This was about the time the study Bible was released and these employees were told to go through the book of Revelation and read his notes on it.

In short, I wouldn't group MacArthur's group in with the Reformed, since they are much more extreme. Not that I agree with either camps however. Also, a few people have PM'd me, I'm sorry I haven't answered the messages yet, I've been pretty busy lately, but I should be getting back to you in the next couple days.

Quote
gracetowho?
Hello, I have tried to contact any one on this site to expose
the tactics, but not sure I am doing it correctly.
But what the Master MC-A College student said about them infiltrating
churches was EXACTLY what we experienced.

1. They say they are non-denom. All doctrine statements are
completely neutral.
2. once you are there, they try to indoctrinate you with Calvinism on steriods
BUT if you say anything even slightly deviating from John Mac
you are now spied on for "charges" of anything from changing light bulbs
"without permission" to "trying to take over the church" " having pride"
with vulgar or shaming language, they are called " breaking sessions" in cults.
The purpose is not to correct you, it's to destroy your worth as
a person. The fear and eggshell walking was ridiculous.
But what was interesting and cult like- is that when you would
talk to a long time staffer, ask a question, about ANYTHING, they would
pause for like 5 seconds, think. then respond. I even asked one woman
" are you self editing
to make sure your response is perfect?"
She said Yes, I guess I do.

That is how it is in these churches.

You must be perfect, act perfect, but it is fine to lie, slander
scream and yell and spy on people who are suddenly "wolves"
(wolf - anyone not into JM worship)
and God help the person who believes in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Definitely you are demon possessed,* because everyone knows, all gifts
ceased* except of course teaching, administration, giving and helps in children's ministry!
Bjw experience was so similar to ours in 2 churches 2000 miles apart, poor guy
being in the Master- Slave college.
the only way to show you are saved is to become their slave.

I like your username, my Dad and I call it "Disgrace to You."

It's sad to see that this way of life is spreading to so many churches, even out of the Southern California area. The "breaking sessions" you mention sound like some of the counseling sessions I experienced where I was badgered for an hour to try to get me to confess to things. Eventually it strips you of all your self-worth, making you believe any problems in your life are your fault. The spying and reporting on other people was also commonplace when I was in.

It's interesting they had a group on campus called the "Wow Staff" that would show up a week early to do the "week of welcome" for new recruits. (The beginning of the brainwashing where you are subjected to sermon after sermon introducing you to Lordship doctrine, love bombed by the staff and Wow staff, taken to ball games and picnics, introduced to Nouthetic Counseling when a wow staffer offers to become your mentor (who later abandons you for one of the more vetran counselors with a degree), attend a church fair where you choose either GCC or a church that has adopted the Lordship system, and play various games.) This all seems well and good but naming them "Wow Staff" is a deception. The Wow in wow staff does not mean "Week of Welcome" as you first are led to believe. It means something else (I never found out the real meaning).
Here's the deception:
Each apartment of 4 in an apartment dorm has one wow staffer per room placed there. Each dormroom of 2 has one per room where possible or at least per every other room when they are low on staff. The requirement to become a Wow Staffer is basically to be the elite of the true believers in Lordship teachings plus have good grades and meet other requirements. Wow staff had weekly meetings all year (so much for week of welcome) where they talk to student life about what they learn about each student, who will be problems, etc. An example of these tactics was when they learned I listened to rock groups, they had a wow staffer befriend me to find out how I believed, what bands I listened to, my relationship with my family, basically all personal details. I know they shared the info because other wow staffers I talked to knew the info when I only talked about it in private to this person. It is the Wow Staff that carry out the will of the church to the rank-and-file student body at the college, whether legal or illegal. You can go back and read some of my posts on here to see some of what I mean.

Now, to people not in the cult this is an obvious form of lying, intrusiveness, spying, etc., but for people that are in they see no problem with it. It sounds like the spying you experienced at these churches was a carryover of how the main organization is ran. The mind control aspect is the most sinister because it puts the average member in a "slave/master" relationship with the church leadership.

I hope more and more people come forward and tell about their experiences. If they all say the same things there is no way the organization can get out of it.

Is there any evidence that MacA uses ghost writers ?

Quote
Mark Scheiderer
Is there any evidence that MacA uses ghost writers ?

Actually, one person that worked for the cult told me once that a few of the books had ghost writers, that they were basically compiled from MacArthur's notes and arranged into a book. I heard that Phil Johnson and Sharon Staats were sometimes used as ghost writers on a few of the books. I don't know how much of that is true though. I think he has over 90 some odd books out and some probably just rehash old ideas with new material added. I would say the smaller books were probably more likely to have ghost writers than the main ones like Faith Works or the Gospel According to Jesus.

The MacArthur Study Bible was written by a whole staff of people using his notes, I know this because they bragged about being in a room for many days with people bringing them food to eat while working without stopping. There was actually a whole team involved in that who poured through pages of notes about each book of the Bible while sitting around a table. This was actually compilled and released while I was still in.

One interesting note about his sermons. I talked to one former member that told me a story about how he listened to a MacArthur sermon tape on the way to GCC one night while he was on his way to the evening service. The tape was a sermon based on the Book of Romans. He told me that MacArthur delivered the exact same sermon that night word-for-word like it was on the tape. So, I believe the sermons are also written in advance and possibly even proofread by a staff before being delivered, and can be recycled at a moments notice.

Thanks bjw!
I thought Johnson might be a ghost writer since I saw a web posting to links to some of his messages which were the same topics MacA ( or was it?) covered in "The Truth War". That's the only MacA book I've ever read and what I did NOT understand was why he had a chapter on "Lordship Salvation". It didn't fit in with the topic of the book. Would I be correct in saying that he self-promotes/advertises in his own books?
Mark

Here's a picture of MacArthur's top execs Sharon Staats and Mark Tatlock showing off the new two-story museum they built to honor MacArthur that is now finally open. (the computer rendering was sent to me on a postcard that I mentioned earlier in this thread):

http://www.the-signal.com/archives/64011/

It's shameful someone responsible for ruining this many lives gets a museum to honor them. Also notice the spin Staats and Tatlock put on it, a lot different from how they described it on the postcard mentioned earlier in the thread, but still bad.