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BraveHeart
bjw,
I'm sorry but I am having a hard time following you in your arguments, as they are creating a lot of confusion, to fully understand your accusations you are making. I'm in the Sacramento area and I'm still looking for a good church. I'm not really interested in getting into a personal attack especially someone I have only heard of, but don't know.
Maybe we should take a step back and establish some foundational understanding starting with;

How are you defining a cult?

What is a cult vs. what is a church?

To you what is the gospel?

What is Salvation? and why? Salvation from what?

What are the essentials of the Christian faith?

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bjw
If you are still interested in practicing Christianity, there are many alternatives out there that do not take control of your life and are closer to what the Bible actually teaches.

ok, what suggestions would you recommend that are "closer to what the Bible actually teaches"?

My defining this organization as a cult is in the tactics they use, not necessarily in their (or MacArthur's) beliefs. Let me give some examples...

The recruiter that came to my high school told me The Master's College was a "non-denominational Christian college." Very little was told to me about John MacArthur or about Lordship Salvation. At the time the Christian high school I was in was very one-sided and was not non-denominational, and I explained to MacArthur's recruiter that I was looking for a school that was Christian, but was non-denominational and welcomed all denominations of Christianity. I was assured it was and that there were people at Masters from all churches. If I would have been told up-front what Lordship Salvation and Nouthetic Counseling were, how extreme MacArthurs views were compared to the rest of Christianity, how I would be expected to go along with these views or be severely repromanded, how I would be expected to agree to forego medical treatments, etc. I would not have agreed to attend their college. You sign several contracts when you go to the college where you are promising to pay them thousands of dollars in return for financial aid to go there. If they were truly honest about everything I would not have signed up for all these loans and locked myself into paying the cult thousands of dollars if I knew it was not a non-denominational Christian college as advertised.

A true "non-denominational" Christian college (BIOLA, etc.) would permit all different doctrinal opinions (eternal security vs armenianism, charismatic vs non-charismatic, premil vs amill, etc.) as long as they fell under the category of Biblical Christianity. TMC is not non-denominational because while all are accepted, you are expected to convert to MacArthur's beliefs once you are at the college. If you do not it is assumed you have unconfessed sin in your life and you are shunned. This is a typical punnishment cults use, such as Jehovah's Witness and Scientology.

You are expected to attend John MacArthur's church when you are there. If you cannot get transportation there then you are expected to attend a number of local churches that are ran by college/seminary staff and hold to the same beliefs as MacArthur.

You are expected to report to a counselor all intimate details of your life to check for unconfessed sin, and you are subject to discipline under what they call the "Restoration Process" which I have mentioned elsehwere in this thread. (Many other cults do things similar to this, Scientology has a similar practice they call "Sec Checking," which you can find on the net.)

You are not allowed to get treatment from psychiatry, all treatment is handled by your counselor, and you must sign a contract that holds GCC/TMC and MacArthur harmless from being sued. Only a cult would do this, no legitimate church I know of would require this.

Eventually when you tell your counselor about people in your life who disagree with MacArthur's viewpoints, you will be told to disassociate with these people as they are hindering your spiritual maturity. Other cults do this as well, Scientology calls it "disconnection" and I forget what Jehovah's Witness calls it. My opinion is they do this because they know when others find out your new beliefs they will see if for what it truly is. I was even asked to break ties with my father and to neglect taking care of my aunt and grandmother because they wanted me to go on a mission for GCC.

The church retaliates against those that leave or are thinking about leaving. When I started questioning the beliefs one "counselor" kicked me in the shins real hard and told me I was on my way to hell. When I reported this the church wouldn't discipline him because he was telling me "what I needed to hear." I had a private detective follow me and the church threatened legal action against me about a crime I didn't committ, and said they wouldn't persue it if I would leave quietly, not talk about my experiences there, and not try to take anyone with me when I left. If tactics like this don't scream "cult" I don't know what does. I have written my story and sent it to various Christian ministries, this is still a very sensitive issue with me and because it involves others I don't know how much I can mention right now, but it will be published eventually. I have two witnesses that have left that were there when I was and I am going to get them to back up my story.

In short, what makes it a cult is the tactics they use, not necessarily their beliefs. Deceptive advertising, slow indoctrination, controlling your life, making you report to a counselor the intimate details of your life, having to report on your friends, having to leave friends and family that disagree with them, having to refuse medical treatments that could be lifesaving, being shunned as a punishment for sins, making it hard to leave, retaliating against people who do leave or disagree, these things are the hallmarks of a cult.

Lordship Salvation as a philosophy is a very depressing worldview in and of itself, but when you add all these cultic tactics to it that makes it even worse. You have to constantly improve, constantly show evidence, or else you are not saved. To them there is no recognition of what Jesus did for us as there is with other churches. For them Jesus died so we can enter the Lordship Salvation life of constantly doubting whether we are saved or not. This is not mainstreat Christianity, which MacArthur believes is in a state of apostacy, teaching a watered down Gospel. It is not non-denominational Christianity as they claim.

Hmm? you did not answer....

To you what is the gospel?

What is Salvation? and why? Salvation from what?

What are the essentials of the Christian faith?

You gave an example of what you think a cult looks like or behaves like
But then according to that example, or understanding your logic;

Are the "Girl-Scouts" and "Boy-Scouts" are displaying cult like behaviors?

After all they require members to wear a uniform and abide by a code of ethics and rules, even saluting the flag and reciting the pledge of allegiance. and lets not bring up some of the scout masters who have been caught behaving inappropriately.

If that is not enough, according to your logic and examples, you should then class all branches of our military as a cult!
Again using your logic, all soldiers entering boot camp are accountable to a superior officer. The superior officer (typically a drill Sergeant). After 2 weeks of you being in boot camp, that officer knows everything about you and more! Moreover they control every aspect of the enlisted soldier’s life from the time he wakes up; to the time he can go to sleep. does that not echo your complaint?
Obviously you have never enlisted or served, that’s too bad; I believe you could benefit yourself by enlisting as they will help you mature and receive an honorable discharged or receive a dis-honorable discharge.

There is a proper protocol when addressing some one in authority; Jesus teaches us “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED” Matthew 18:15-16

Be open and humble to understanding that you could be wrong!
Jesus said, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

How are you demonstrating love?

Today with the internet it is so easy to hide behind a handle name, hiding as you are blasting out bomb shells of innuendos and accusations devoid of love or any of the characteristics of a true believer "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control". How about forgiveness? Can you agree to disagree and move on with your life?

That is where we need to take the high road and be very careful with the words we use. Spreading a rumor is like standing on a street corner on a windy day and opening up a feather pillow and scattering the feathers. If you ever realized you have been wrong, even saying your sorry is like trying to go back and pick up each of those feathers, it is impossible!

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Also note the forum rules
*Don't post false statements, contrived fiction, deliberately misleading statements, obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful and/or threatening comments, which may violate any laws. that would include slander
*Please understand that you are personally responsible for all your comments and actions through this message board.
*The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize.
*Vitriolic posts that personally attack people, will not be tolerated and are grounds for banning the author from this message board.
*Any person that is here to cause trouble, start arguments and/or intimidate people, will be banned.

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BraveHeart
Hmm? you did not answer....

To you what is the gospel?

What is Salvation? and why? Salvation from what?

What are the essentials of the Christian faith?

You gave an example of what you think a cult looks like or behaves like
But then according to that example, or understanding your logic;

Are the "Girl-Scouts" and "Boy-Scouts" are displaying cult like behaviors?

After all they require members to wear a uniform and abide by a code of ethics and rules, even saluting the flag and reciting the pledge of allegiance. and lets not bring up some of the scout masters who have been caught behaving inappropriately.

If that is not enough, according to your logic and examples, you should then class all branches of our military as a cult!
Again using your logic, all soldiers entering boot camp are accountable to a superior officer. The superior officer (typically a drill Sergeant). After 2 weeks of you being in boot camp, that officer knows everything about you and more! Moreover they control every aspect of the enlisted soldier’s life from the time he wakes up; to the time he can go to sleep. does that not echo your complaint?
Obviously you have never enlisted or served, that’s too bad; I believe you could benefit yourself by enlisting as they will help you mature and receive an honorable discharged or receive a dis-honorable discharge.

There is a proper protocol when addressing some one in authority; Jesus teaches us “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED” Matthew 18:15-16

Be open and humble to understanding that you could be wrong!
Jesus said, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

How are you demonstrating love?

Today with the internet it is so easy to hide behind a handle name, hiding as you are blasting out bomb shells of innuendos and accusations devoid of love or any of the characteristics of a true believer "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control". How about forgiveness? Can you agree to disagree and move on with your life?

That is where we need to take the high road and be very careful with the words we use. Spreading a rumor is like standing on a street corner on a windy day and opening up a feather pillow and scattering the feathers. If you ever realized you have been wrong, even saying your sorry is like trying to go back and pick up each of those feathers, it is impossible!

Quote
Also note the forum rules
*Don't post false statements, contrived fiction, deliberately misleading statements, obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful and/or threatening comments, which may violate any laws. that would include slander
*Please understand that you are personally responsible for all your comments and actions through this message board.
*The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize.
*Vitriolic posts that personally attack people, will not be tolerated and are grounds for banning the author from this message board.
*Any person that is here to cause trouble, start arguments and/or intimidate people, will be banned.

I am going to defer to the board rules, this is not a place to proseletize, so what I or you think the Gospel is, what Jesus Christ teaches or doesn't teach, is not in the scope of what we are to discuss here. Since this is "Cult Education Forum" we need to stick to the cult itself and it's conduct in the context of "Destructive Churches" subforum.

For the first board rule posted: I have backed up everything I said by either telling where in MacArthur's literature you can find what I said, I quoted a postcard I received in the mail from the cult, I posted no hateful or slanderous comments. I simply was telling what I experienced as an "Ex member" of the church as the title of the thread states. Where others were involved I left their names out if it was something that could not be proven directly, and where it was only my opinion, I was careful to state "In my opinion, etc..."

Next rule of the forum: I am not here to promote any religious or political viewpoint. I am not here to convert anyone to anything. I am simply stating the truth about what I experienced. I am not here to quote scripture, prove one viewpoint over another, or anything else. It's like I said before, it is their conduct that makes them a cult, not necessarily their beliefs. If all beliefs were explained up-front I would not be on this forum right now.

I am not personally attacking anybody, including you. I do not care what you want to believe or anybody else on this forum. The person who started the thread wanted info on the group and I am letting them know my experiences. So far I have been attacked in this forum, but rather than attack back I have just shown where pro-MacArthur people tend to lump following the Gospel in the same category as following MacArthur.

As for the last rule, I am not here to start arguments, intimidate people, or cause trouble. If you look at other threads here at "Cult Education Forum" people have done the same as I have. Someone asks a question about a group, and those that have experience with the group come in and talk about their experiences.

I refuse to get into a debate over what specific verses from the Bible mean, my beliefs, or anything else, I am not here to debate, only to contribute to a discussion about a specific group that is controversial to people wanting more info on those that have experience with them. I have also offered to help those that have been harmed (as I have been) by the group, and I am interested in teaming with others who also want to help people.

Comparing a religion/cult to boy-scouts/girl-scouts or military is not a fair comparison. These groups do not falsify their true intentions and let you know up-front what they stand for, what will be expected of you in the group, etc. and they don't completely take over your life. Being an organization is not what makes them a cult, it is the tactics they use. All organizations require you to be accountable to someone, but only cults are dishonest about how much accountability is required.

Now, if children went on a trip and found out they were in scouts after they got there, and then were told to no longer affiliate with those who are not scouts, and to consider the leader of the scouts the final authority in all matters of life, but if they leave they will lose thousands of dollars, then we would have a comparison.

Making fun of me for having never enlisted in the military is a personal attack and I'm sure it violates board rules. Also, I am not interested in hiding behind a name. As soon as my story is published I will gladly put my full name plus phone number on the net where people can call me, as I want to be able to help people. Also, I hope MacArthur's people do retaliate legally, because then the truth will just get more publicity. With the advent of the internet it is no longer possible to keep the truth from people and abusive groups will start to fall by the wayside more and more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2011 07:54AM by bjw.

bjw,
The over whelming theme of the bible is reconciliation, God Reconciling man to himself.
In looking at your guys Charles Ryrie, Bob George and MacArthur I see some of the basic similarities with all of these guys.
Since you are not willing to take your rant to a deeper foundational level to state what the Christian faith looks like here is a simple basic outline of what Orthodox Christianity is: if there is anything here that you disagree with let me know and why?

* The Bible to be the inspired, infallible, authoritative, and inerrant Word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21).
* There is one God, eternally existing in three persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1, Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 28:19, John 10:30).
* The deity of Christ (John 10:33);
~ His virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Luke 1:34-35);
~ His sinless life (Hebrews 4:15, 7:26);
~ His miracles (John 2:11);
~ His vicarious and atoning death (I Corinthians 15:3, Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 2:9);
~ His resurrection (John 11:25, I Corinthians 15:4);
~ His ascension to the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19);
~ His personal return to earth in power and glory (Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11-16).
* The absolute necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit for salvation because of the exceeding sinfulness of the human nature, and that all are justified on the single ground of faith in the shed blood of Christ, and that only by God's grace through faith alone are we saved (John 3:16-19; 5:24, Romans 3:23; 5:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5).
* Believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; those who are saved unto the resurrection of life, and those who are not unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).
* Believe in the spiritual unity of the believers in our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:26-28).
* Believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by Whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life (Romans 8:13-14, I Corinthians 3:16, 6:19-20, Ephesians 4:30; 5:18).
* Believe that we as Christians are examples of the love of God in this world. It is this (agape) love that we desire to possess and without which we have no right to call ourselves Christians (I John 4:16-17).
* Believe it is the mandate of the whole Church to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19-20

Historically Christian churches have agreed on these primary beliefs, for example the Conservative Lutherans, Church of Christ, Non denominational and Baptists (just to name a few) would all agree on these foundational Christian beliefs. Where they may disagree would be maybe in the style of worship or baptizing infants, However these are secondary issues that are not fundamental in basic understanding what the bible teaches especially regarding Salvation, (see the book of John) you don’t see these churches hating each other and fighting over these secondary issues, they may have heated debates from time to time but they ate not calling each other harsh names like a CULT.

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bjw
I am going to defer to the board rules, this is not a place to proseletize, so what I or you think the Gospel is, what Jesus Christ teaches or doesn't teach, is not in the scope of what we are to discuss here. Since this is "Cult Education Forum" we need to stick to the cult itself and it's conduct in the context of "Destructive Churches" subforum.

bjw, you are the person who opened up the discussion / debate by comparing an evangelical Christian to being closer to the Jehovah's Witness doctrine. You called "MacArthur's teachings as being twisted combination of Jehovah's Witness (the salvation doctrines), Scientology (the counseling/mental health doctrines), and end-times conspiracy groups". But now because someone is questioning your accuracy and truthfulness you are going to try and hide behind the rules to NOT back up your slanderous remarks? You do not want to define or even out line your opinion of what you think is Christianity or explain what the gospel is to you, but your willing to drag a mans name through the mud and NOT back up your definitions or accusations. You said "He's taken a "best-of" of the major heresies and made one cult out of it." ?HERESIES? Where are your examples of heresies??
I just see huge inconstancy's in your stories and complaints. If you are not willing to share with any one reading this forum your foundational basic beliefs then this discussion is simply a witch hunt!
Why did you post this?

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bjw
If you are interested in believing in protestant Christianity, there have been many refutations of MacArthur's doctrines by leading theologians that have no cult activities, like Charles Ryrie. Ryrie's "So Great Salvation" gives a good point-by-point refutation, as does "Faith that Pleases God" by Bob George. Many protestants do not believe in a non-working faith but they haven't gone overboard like MacArthur and formed a false religion. Even Mormonism believes in a system that is saved by grace, works for reward/blessings from God. MacArthur's leanings are closer to Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Basically, MacArthur's teachings are like a twisted combination of Jehovah's Witness (the salvation doctrines), Scientology (the counseling/mental health doctrines), and end-times conspiracy groups. He's taken a "best-of" of the major heresies and made one cult out of it. Since it is flavored with popular mainstream Christian doctrines (trinity, dispensationalism, premillenialism, creationism) he's able to slip it in easily to the unsuspecting public. That's exactly how I fell for it, I was going to a Dutch Reformed Christian high school at the time they sent their recruiter.

You have totally misrepresented what the Mormons believe and teach. You would have been more accurate saying in Mormonism, you have to do all the right works, attend all the meetings, give 10% of your income and prove it to your bishiop with tax returns, you have to do a two year mission, have the right kind of hair cut, white shirt and tie, to live out the right kind of Mormon life including a Mormon wife and Mormon kids and then when you die some how their Jesus does the rest, never mind that they believe their Jesus is the spirit brother to Satan. And if they are really good Mormons they will maybe become gods on other planets with multiple wives.... And that is just the tip of the iceberg of what Mormonism is all about.

I understand your good intentions to help people, did you ever sit down with the people who you say were leading your small group or the person you interacted the most with while you attending that school? Did you ever sit down with the authorities of the school and present them with your questions and concerns that you have?

I invite you to drop the personal attack and bring the topic back to discussing theology. I am sure MacArthur has miss-spoken or been taken out of context before, but lets get our facts right then bring to the table what you believe is right and wrong.

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BraveHeart
bjw,
The over whelming theme of the bible is reconciliation, God Reconciling man to himself.
In looking at your guys Charles Ryrie, Bob George and MacArthur I see some of the basic similarities with all of these guys.

This is completely false. Ryrie and George (and I know Bob George personally, he is a good friend of my Dad's) both disagree with John MacArthur and both have written books refuting Lordship Salvation sharply. See Ryrie's So Great Salvation and Bob George's Faith that Pleases God.

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Since you are not willing to take your rant to a deeper foundational level to state what the Christian faith looks like here is a simple basic outline of what Orthodox Christianity is: if there is anything here that you disagree with let me know and why?

* The Bible to be the inspired, infallible, authoritative, and inerrant Word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21).
* There is one God, eternally existing in three persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1, Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 28:19, John 10:30).
* The deity of Christ (John 10:33);
~ His virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Luke 1:34-35);
~ His sinless life (Hebrews 4:15, 7:26);
~ His miracles (John 2:11);
~ His vicarious and atoning death (I Corinthians 15:3, Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 2:9);
~ His resurrection (John 11:25, I Corinthians 15:4);
~ His ascension to the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19);
~ His personal return to earth in power and glory (Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11-16).
* The absolute necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit for salvation because of the exceeding sinfulness of the human nature, and that all are justified on the single ground of faith in the shed blood of Christ, and that only by God's grace through faith alone are we saved (John 3:16-19; 5:24, Romans 3:23; 5:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5).
* Believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; those who are saved unto the resurrection of life, and those who are not unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).
* Believe in the spiritual unity of the believers in our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:26-28).
* Believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by Whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life (Romans 8:13-14, I Corinthians 3:16, 6:19-20, Ephesians 4:30; 5:18).
* Believe that we as Christians are examples of the love of God in this world. It is this (agape) love that we desire to possess and without which we have no right to call ourselves Christians (I John 4:16-17).
* Believe it is the mandate of the whole Church to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19-20

Lordship Salvation teaches works are necessary for salvation, that you must constantly show more and more evidence of good works, and that confession to a counselor or church appointed official is necessary to retain full fellowship with God. Further, you are not permitted to receive medical help for psychiatric or emotional conditions and must only be helped by your counselor. The point is moot, MacArthur himself does not agree with these points you list, and the ones he does agree with he has either completely redefined them or changed them to be more works-oriented. I have already explained the cult-like nature of the group.

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Historically Christian churches have agreed on these primary beliefs, for example the Conservative Lutherans, Church of Christ, Non denominational and Baptists (just to name a few) would all agree on these foundational Christian beliefs. Where they may disagree would be maybe in the style of worship or baptizing infants, However these are secondary issues that are not fundamental in basic understanding what the bible teaches especially regarding Salvation, (see the book of John) you don’t see these churches hating each other and fighting over these secondary issues, they may have heated debates from time to time but they ate not calling each other harsh names like a CULT.

Theological issues are irrelevant. The characteristic of a cult is slow indoctrination, mind control, not being allowed to have friends outside the group, shunning members that question the group, the leader becoming totalitarian and taking over a person's life, making it difficult to leave, and retaliation against those who disagree with or try to leave the group, There is not one psychologist or sociologist that will disagree with me that these are the characteristics of a cult, and this describes MacArthur's church to a tee. MacArthur defines cult as any group that disagrees with the fundamentals of Christianity (or his version of it), but that is not the true definition of cult. A cult tears apart lives and families. What I went through there took many hours of therapy to recover from and drove me to bankruptcy. I know many others that had this happen to them as well, my story is far from unique.

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bjw
I am going to defer to the board rules, this is not a place to proseletize, so what I or you think the Gospel is, what Jesus Christ teaches or doesn't teach, is not in the scope of what we are to discuss here. Since this is "Cult Education Forum" we need to stick to the cult itself and it's conduct in the context of "Destructive Churches" subforum.

bjw, you are the person who opened up the discussion / debate by comparing an evangelical Christian to being closer to the Jehovah's Witness doctrine. You called "MacArthur's teachings as being twisted combination of Jehovah's Witness (the salvation doctrines), Scientology (the counseling/mental health doctrines), and end-times conspiracy groups". But now because someone is questioning your accuracy and truthfulness you are going to try and hide behind the rules to NOT back up your slanderous remarks? You do not want to define or even out line your opinion of what you think is Christianity or explain what the gospel is to you, but your willing to drag a mans name through the mud and NOT back up your definitions or accusations. You said "He's taken a "best-of" of the major heresies and made one cult out of it." ?HERESIES? Where are your examples of heresies??
I just see huge inconstancy's in your stories and complaints. If you are not willing to share with any one reading this forum your foundational basic beliefs then this discussion is simply a witch hunt!

John MacArthur is not an evangelical Christian, and is not considered as such by those who are outside the lordship camp. I already explained in this thread what Lordship Salvation is like once you are a part of it, and the strictness of the salvation doctrine does seem closer to Jehovah's Witnesses, since only those in the Lordship committment are saved, shunning is used as a punishment, and you must disassociate from those that disagree with the group. The doctrine is close to Scientology because they believe psychiatry is evil and is conspiring against religion, you must disconnect from those that disagree with the group, and you must go to counseling sessions designed to make you confess your innermost intimate thoughts to look for unconfessed sin in your life since all problems in your life are attributed to unconfessed sin. The similarities to those two groups are uncanny and since they predate MacArthur's group it does look like he borrowed from them.

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Why did you post this?

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bjw
If you are interested in believing in protestant Christianity, there have been many refutations of MacArthur's doctrines by leading theologians that have no cult activities, like Charles Ryrie. Ryrie's "So Great Salvation" gives a good point-by-point refutation, as does "Faith that Pleases God" by Bob George. Many protestants do not believe in a non-working faith but they haven't gone overboard like MacArthur and formed a false religion. Even Mormonism believes in a system that is saved by grace, works for reward/blessings from God. MacArthur's leanings are closer to Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Basically, MacArthur's teachings are like a twisted combination of Jehovah's Witness (the salvation doctrines), Scientology (the counseling/mental health doctrines), and end-times conspiracy groups. He's taken a "best-of" of the major heresies and made one cult out of it. Since it is flavored with popular mainstream Christian doctrines (trinity, dispensationalism, premillenialism, creationism) he's able to slip it in easily to the unsuspecting public. That's exactly how I fell for it, I was going to a Dutch Reformed Christian high school at the time they sent their recruiter.

You have totally misrepresented what the Mormons believe and teach. You would have been more accurate saying in Mormonism, you have to do all the right works, attend all the meetings, give 10% of your income and prove it to your bishiop with tax returns, you have to do a two year mission, have the right kind of hair cut, white shirt and tie, to live out the right kind of Mormon life including a Mormon wife and Mormon kids and then when you die some how their Jesus does the rest, never mind that they believe their Jesus is the spirit brother to Satan. And if they are really good Mormons they will maybe become gods on other planets with multiple wives.... And that is just the tip of the iceberg of what Mormonism is all about.

Mormons are universalists. They believe all will eventually make it to at least one of the three heavens, and unless you deliberately follow Satan or blaspheme the Holy Ghost, you will at least be resurrected to what they call the lowest heaven (telestial). Also, the bishops ask a fixed set of questions, they don't hold counseling sessions to mine your life for unconfessed sin. The remainder of the works you mention they believe lead to "exaltation" or becoming a god, not salvation. So, in that way they are far less strict than MacArthur's lordship views. Also, they accept psychiatry as a valid medical science.

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I understand your good intentions to help people, did you ever sit down with the people who you say were leading your small group or the person you interacted the most with while you attending that school? Did you ever sit down with the authorities of the school and present them with your questions and concerns that you have?

You do not know how many hours I sat down with them and was ganged up on by them almost to the point of tears. There is absolutely no reasoning with them. In fact, they are so confrontational I had to drive off and go home before finals week and had to take straight Fs on all my courses the last semester. I even sat down with John MacArthur himself for a whole hour about many of the issues I've mentioned on here, as well as different members of his staff. Keep in mind this is the same person that built a museum to himself, as I mentioned in an earlier post. He's not likely to bend on any of his practices.

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I invite you to drop the personal attack and bring the topic back to discussing theology. I am sure MacArthur has miss-spoken or been taken out of context before, but lets get our facts right then bring to the table what you believe is right and wrong.

If you mean the people in this thread, the only one who has been attacked is me. All I am doing when mentioning MacArthur is simply stating the truth about what I experienced in my dealings with him when I was in the cult, and when it is only my opinion I have stated it as such.

This is not a theology forum and it is not appropriate to discuss theology here. This is a cult forum, and we should stick to only the cultic practices of this group and not their theology. I explained my logic for what I did say about their theology, but I only mentioned it so people will know why the cultic practices are being used and how they are justified using the theology. I don't care what you believe, MacArthur believes, what I believe doesn't even matter. What matters is that cultic practices are being used, that is what the OP wanted to know about, I explained it using personal experience to back it up. I have no desire to discuss theology. If you are in this group you have agreed to give them complete authority over you and nothing I say to you will change your mind. You must experience what I did before you will get out and realize what it really is. So, I refuse to get into a theological argument. Proselyting is not allowed on this board, so what you or I think the true view of salvation of cannot be argued on this forum according to the rules.

You have mentioned other groups on here in other threads, why are you defending MacArthur so much? Why haven't you defended other cults that have been attacked even worse than this one?

Okay, back on topic...

For those of you researching this group I decided to find a few useful links just so you can see what MacArthur has on his website for public consumption. Please keep in mind that this is only a small portion of what MacArthur actually believes and that it is actually much stricter than this once you are on campus or become a member. Also, remember this is a cult-owned site, so if you are worried about privacy you may want to use a proxy server:

Here is an article that hints at how MacArthur feels about psychology, how he denies mental illness and equates accepting the word of a Psychologist to adding to Scripture:
http://www.gracechurch.org/grace_today/posts/946/the_sufficiency_of_scripture/

Here is the summary of Lordship Salvation that is given to the public. Note here that he says that present-day Evangelicalism ignores the warnings of Scripture (thus separating himself from Evangelicals) and says obedience is evidence of faith. If you look at my earlier posts you will see this is the setup for the "us vs them" mentality of the Lordship committment and the strict works-salvation views:
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/lordship_salvation/

Here is the summary of their views on "church discipline" that is given to the public. Note here the phrase "they are to pursue the person aggressively" and also note the lack of confidentiality (they make it clear info is shared with the congregation and church leaders). It also shows the authority they take over your life. They are careful here to not mention Nouthetic Counseling and confessing to a counselor on this site, you usually find out about this part later:
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/church_discipline/

I'm only posting these for those that want to research what this group believes and what is given for public consumption. I am not condoning any of these beliefs nor do I agree with the way the Bible verses used are interpreted, this is only for informative purposes. Also, this is not a complete summary of what they believe, it is only introductory material they have provided.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2011 01:02PM by bjw.

Braveheart -

I used to be in a cult ( [www.eth-s.com] has my report that Rick Ross knows about ) and have been GREATLY disturbed the past year or so over the unquestioning loyalty that mere listeners to MacArrogant's radio program and readers of his books display. You REALLY need to quit questioning BJW and start thinking about what he has said about his personal experiences with MacArrogant's psuedo-school. He's gotten kicked in the shins and followed by a detective and you ignore that? I think it's time an investigation was done into MacArrogant's mansion, lifestyle, and former students who've left his psuedo-school. I would venture to say that there is a HUGE drop out rate for freshman ( just like Bob Jones University, which MacArrogant attended BEFORE Blacks were allowed to attend. Hmmmm, has MacA. ever renounced his affiliation with racist Bob Jones U.? Well, Braveheart, has he? )
Someone needs to call 20/20 or Dateline or 60 Minutes about this guy.

Mark

I've been greatly damaged by the teachings of this man and his followers, even years after leaving the church. There's really nothing to be gained by trying to explain the hurt to his supporters because they know how to manipulate ant interaction by Godifying their narrow, unshakable truth. And yes, it's theirs, not His.

I don't think they're rooted in evil, unless a determination to be part of a tiny group of scholars and wannabe scholars who have a unique and elite knowledge of what the Bible REALLY means is evil.

(Not just ant interactions, but any interactions!) Skipping the "preview before posting" option may save time, but...

I'm just posting so this get's brought back to the top.