GW,

I need to apologize. My use of the terms "depraved" and "weak minded" were out of line and not helpful to the discussion. I apologize.

I am thankful that you have taken time to post on this forum and your questions are valid. I would like to encourage you to take time, if you have not done so already, to read through each posting on the RLc and the TPc threads. This will take some time but will give you some insight into the dialogue that has taken place regarding both churches.

I am heading out for the evening but I do plan on responding to your other questions.

Again, I apologize for my poor choice of words.

TPR

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GodsWarrior
Do they accept tithes and offerings at your church? Is it taught?

Yes, they do collect donations. In all the years I have attended I have heard only one message on giving. It was spoken about in the larger context of a passage. My pastor preaches through whole books of the bible, chapter by chapter, so when giving is mentioned in a chapter he will comment. But again, I have only heard him do this one time in nine years.

The leaders are very frugal with the money given to the church. They believe that it is NOT their money to do anything they wish to do but see it as the churches money to be managed wisely. The leaders had a plan to build a 2000 seat auditorium. The costs of lumber, steel etc continued to rise so that the initial projected cost rose from 6 million to over 14 million. Instead of pressing forward the leaders decided it would be foolhardy to spend that kind of money during an economic down turn, so they came up with a plan that allowed them to continue to make room for new people without spending huge sums of money.

Anyone who so desires may ask for a copy of the church budget and they will see what pastors are paid. The senior pastor is very accessible. As I said before, I am able to talk to him quite often. He is a very humble person.

Prosperity Gospel or Greed Gospel

Just a few links regarding prosperity theology.



[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.trinityfi.org]

[www.desiringgod.org]

Does Pastor David Luster have T D Jakes as his favorite celebritie/public figure on his facebook!

There is a rumor that someone in a leadership position has left TP Skagit! Can anybody shed some light on this?

Does Pastor Dave Luster believe in the direction and vision Pastor Mike Villamor has for the future of the church? Does Pastor Dave believe and teach Word-Faith,name it claim it,positive confession,prosperity false doctrine? Pastor Dave taught apologetices at TPWOC,what kind did he teach? Did he teach the TP people how to play tiddle winks apologetices? TPWOC seems to be into alot of false doctrine! Did he teach TP people on how to tell if a person is a false apostle or prophet? Did he teach the Tp people how to defend itself from the false doctrine that sneaks or creeps its way in to the body of Christ? TPWOC has a cancer right now and is spreading throughout the body! Pastor Dave please stand up for truth!

I was watching Pastor Dave Luster giving the sermon for May 17th online at their home web site and the first thing I notice was all the empty seats! How many people still attend Turning Point Skagit Valley?

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rrmoderator
"GodsWarrior":

Attempting to personally attack members of this board is not a meaningful response, and it is not allowed per the rules of this board.

What responsibility do leaders have for the harm they do to church members?

You seem to have overlooked this.

Apparently, you would not have wanted to walk with Jesus as a disciple.

After all, Jesus might easily fit into what you call "the poverty mindset."

God's Warrior:

I have read and re-read your post. I found no direct or indirect attack on anyone. I have observed and documented, as well as have had numerous classes on behavioral disorders "Bullying" & "Intimidation." There was one part where you were defensive of another person. I did notice that a label of name-calling was posted before and after your post. I also noticed you were later apologized to by the person for his label of name-calling. I hope you are not disheartened by a question of your intent, as this forum allows for questions. I have been reading everybody's posting and almost all are very important for collective data. The label name-callings go into a sub category.

Talk about questions, I knew David Luster once upon a time. I didn't know him very well, so I won't say much of anything about my experience. I didn't know him as a bad person, just as I knew Mike Villamore in a different way back then. However, I would very much question my kids being in his Youth Group or any group where the leaders are under him. I actually knew many people in a much more positive light. But, it was just over 3 years ago that I had a rather disturbing (to me) meeting with one of their Pastors. I noticed authoritarianism immediately. I used to admire the guy. He probably carried the most weight with Mike and other leaders & could have helped keep the church from becoming cult like. I have got to say that all the sites, books, etc. I've attained regarding the subject and cults (including this one) all share the same signs of a [destructive church].

As for any "poverty mindsets," it is proven that the scriptures speak more about finances than any other subject. Jesus encouraged people to invest, have a trade/ job for taking care of your needs, and to give. There is nothing wrong with giving or making money. However, often when "prosperity" is preached, it is not for us to prosper, but for your church (ie the pastors) to prosper. I have seen many of these churches jump start their congregation into getting out of debt (it is a great thing & scripture tells us not to be in debt) and open up personal businesses (which is what our great country is founded on and benefits communities and business) and then somehow or other the church gets them to invest (which is scripture), but the investment fails. I ask, "Where did the money go?" So, I believe God wants us all to prosper in finances. In fact, He talks more about taking care of our finances than He does His love for us. But He also adamantly warns us about the dangers of False Apostles and the like. I share the belief that we are to guard our money and give as we delight. The "prosperity message" is not all bad. Just mind the warning signs. A good place to find solid warning signs is right here.

My Regards,

WalterMartin

I posted this at the Marysville TP site, I copied this for your consideration.


I haven't written in a while in part because my pastor asked me not to while we were doing the class on recovering from church abuse. By the way, I totally agree with Learning Point's view about people being in different places of healing and the freedom of this forum. I also must say I was deeply touched by the work God has done in D of D's heart.

I want to share something that cut me in the heart today. I picked up a book called CROSSING HITLER, it is about the man (Hans Litten) who had a chance to cross examine Hitler in a trial shortly before Hitler came to power.

Before going further. I am NOT comparing Mike to Hitler. That is not my intent. To believe so would be to miss the point entirely.

But this quote from the opening passage of the book shook me. It shakes me because I still am searching and asking God what responsibility do I have in regards to this situation? And even more importantly, what responsibility do those have who are in the inner circle?

"The more we know, the more we think we have learned, the more hopeless it becomes to live and not to be responsible for everything. For everything , and especially for what goes on in the small circle around oneself. That is why it is so difficult to write about Hans Litten....I must tell the Hans Litten story very briefly...But I will tell it, because 'he is part of myself.'" Max Furst, 1973.

I ask you who are leaders at TP. Please be true to your conscience. Do not allow temporary position, power, or honor keep you from facing what you know is true. You can still be a person of honor. You may even save the church and many young believers from great heartbreak and maybe spiritual shipwreck.

At this point I am committed to praying and speaking the truth. I think that is all God has called me to.

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Dave Luster attends Prosperity with a purpose conference at false prosperity mandatory tithe business city church. Was not Dr. Favor and Casey Treat enough for you. Have you not learned the Oral Roberts revelations on the new seed faith.Did you pick up some new prosperity false teaching so you can scam some money out of your people like your spiritual father,false apostle Mike Villamor.Do they have any exclusive neighborhoods in Mount Vernon and have you been looking for a big fancy house on the street of dreams! You say that the future of Turning Point Church Skagit Valley is going to be about Prosperity! Way to protect the flock Dave Luster!