Dear Buddy,

Thank you for this kind and insightful message.

It is indeed very hard.

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buddy
The youth Pastor at TPC Skagit was a teacher to my Son and I had the privilege to go out and witness with him, you could not ask for a better Youth Pastor and a smart, bright, Christlike brother, thats what makes this so hard! So many people we love being decieved by Pastor Mike and Tony Cunningham!

I have found Pastor David to be a genuine man. I don't think he believes that he is being decieved. I wonder if he just is in agreement with the vision?. Does he belive in prosperity? Does he believe in healings? Does he believe that Pastor Mike is an apostle?
David's facebook frequently speaks quite positive about The Villamor family and Tony Cunningham.
To me TP SKagit seems like a franchise scenario. It is like McDonalds adding another location. New Managers and new employees. Selling food from the same menu but being sold from a new salesman. But they were all trained up under the same Ronald McDonald.

I don't see how TP Skagit can disconnect from TP Marysville. It is just the north campus of the same chruch.

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GodsWarrior
I have found Pastor David to be a genuine man. I don't think he believes that he is being decieved. I wonder if he just is in agreement with the vision?. Does he belive in prosperity? Does he believe in healings? Does he believe that Pastor Mike is an apostle?
David's facebook frequently speaks quite positive about The Villamor family and Tony Cunningham.
To me TP SKagit seems like a franchise scenario. It is like McDonalds adding another location. New Managers and new employees. Selling food from the same menu but being sold from a new salesman. But they were all trained up under the same Ronald McDonald.

I don't see how TP Skagit can disconnect from TP Marysville. It is just the north campus of the same chruch.

I would agree with you, GW, that it will be difficult for David to disconnect from Tony and Mike. He is weak minded and has not one but two men who are manipulating him and his thinking. He may be genuine but he is genuinely deceived. He is less than a critical thinker and is unwilling or unable to step back and look at the destructiveness of the teaching he has invested himself into. He has given how many years of himself to this wackiness that Mike and Tony have heaped upon his head? I was lucky, in that I saw it coming in the very first year and only invested one year of my life. David has given up many years to Mike and the Deception. That will be hard to admit and the walk away from. He has witnessed firsthand what happens to those who walk away from TPC. Do you think he wants to experience the same grief and pain they have experienced?

Regarding the teachings on vision, healing, apostleship, etc. A close examination in light of the Truth will expose these teachings for what they really are. Take the prosperity teaching for example: A common rebuttal is that "other" churches preach a gospel of "poverty". Yet Jesus himself told the rich man to go and sell every thing he owned, give the proceeds to the poor and follow Jesus. The rich man walked away with a heavy heart because he couldn't let go of his riches. Jesus said, 23 "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I guess Jesus is guilty of teaching a "poverty gospel".

If TPC really believed the prosperity crap they teach, they why don't they live it? Why do they put such an emphasis on giving money to the church? If all you need to do is "speak it in to reality" they they should remove all the giving baskets from the church and just use positive confession to create their wealth. Of course they wont remove the baskets. Because they don't really believe what they teach. That is called hypocrisy. Instead they use what they teach to manipulate their weakminded followers to give money to the church in hopes of "increasing the seeds they have sown".

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TurningPointReject

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GodsWarrior
I have found Pastor David to be a genuine man. I don't think he believes that he is being decieved. I wonder if he just is in agreement with the vision?. Does he belive in prosperity? Does he believe in healings? Does he believe that Pastor Mike is an apostle?
David's facebook frequently speaks quite positive about The Villamor family and Tony Cunningham.
To me TP SKagit seems like a franchise scenario. It is like McDonalds adding another location. New Managers and new employees. Selling food from the same menu but being sold from a new salesman. But they were all trained up under the same Ronald McDonald.

I don't see how TP Skagit can disconnect from TP Marysville. It is just the north campus of the same chruch.

I would agree with you, GW, that it will be difficult for David to disconnect from Tony and Mike. He is weak minded and has not one but two men who are manipulating him and his thinking. He may be genuine but he is genuinely deceived. He is less than a critical thinker and is unwilling or unable to step back and look at the destructiveness of the teaching he has invested himself into. He has given how many years of himself to this wackiness that Mike and Tony have heaped upon his head? I was lucky, in that I saw it coming in the very first year and only invested one year of my life. David has given up many years to Mike and the Deception. That will be hard to admit and the walk away from. He has witnessed firsthand what happens to those who walk away from TPC. Do you think he wants to experience the same grief and pain they have experienced?

Regarding the teachings on vision, healing, apostleship, etc. A close examination in light of the Truth will expose these teachings for what they really are. Take the prosperity teaching for example: A common rebuttal is that "other" churches preach a gospel of "poverty". Yet Jesus himself told the rich man to go and sell every thing he owned, give the proceeds to the poor and follow Jesus. The rich man walked away with a heavy heart because he couldn't let go of his riches. Jesus said, 23 "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I guess Jesus is guilty of teaching a "poverty gospel".

If TPC really believed the prosperity crap they teach, they why don't they live it? Why do they put such an emphasis on giving money to the church? If all you need to do is "speak it in to reality" they they should remove all the giving baskets from the church and just use positive confession to create their wealth. Of course they wont remove the baskets. Because they don't really believe what they teach. That is called hypocrisy. Instead they use what they teach to manipulate their weakminded followers to give money to the church in hopes of "increasing the seeds they have sown".

I definitely don't think that Pastor David Luster is weak minded. I can't imagine what happened to you in that first year to have so much disdain for the TPC and the Villamors. You seem very hurt after 12+ years. Have you found a good church since then? I also would not assume that all TPC people are weak minded followers. Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible. For example, I would not want to be part of a church that had the poverty mindset. That would be horrible. Submitting your family to a lifetime of foodstamps and apartment living. It seems you are taking the Prosperity thing to an extreme....is it the same for the Poverty thing? Are we to keep our family in a van down by the river in order to get into heaven?

"GodsWarrior":

Attempting to personally attack members of this board is not a meaningful response, and it is not allowed per the rules of this board.

What responsibility do leaders have for the harm they do to church members?

You seem to have overlooked this.

Apparently, you would not have wanted to walk with Jesus as a disciple.

After all, Jesus might easily fit into what you call "the poverty mindset."

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GodsWarrior
I have found Pastor David to be a genuine man. I don't think he believes that he is being decieved. I wonder if he just is in agreement with the vision?. Does he belive in prosperity? Does he believe in healings? Does he believe that Pastor Mike is an apostle?
David's facebook frequently speaks quite positive about The Villamor family and Tony Cunningham.
To me TP SKagit seems like a franchise scenario. It is like McDonalds adding another location. New Managers and new employees. Selling food from the same menu but being sold from a new salesman. But they were all trained up under the same Ronald McDonald.

I don't see how TP Skagit can disconnect from TP Marysville. It is just the north campus of the same chruch.

Gods Warrior,
You seem to be in the know so here are some questions for you to consider and respond to:

Does David Luster believe and practice "spiritual parenting"?
Does David Luster believe and practice "covenant relationship"?
Does David Luster believe and practice "double/triple tithing"?
Does David Luster believe and practice "honoring"?

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rrmoderator
"GodsWarrior":

Attempting to personally attack members of this board is not a meaningful response, and it is not allowed per the rules of this board.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I don't see where GW has attempted an attack on members. Could you define what constitutes an attack?

I actually find his line of reasoning to be interesting, and a good jumping of point for conversation.......

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GodsWarrior
I definitely don't think that Pastor David Luster is weak minded. I can't imagine what happened to you in that first year to have so much disdain for the TPC and the Villamors. You seem very hurt after 12+ years. Have you found a good church since then? I also would not assume that all TPC people are weak minded followers. Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible. For example, I would not want to be part of a church that had the poverty mindset. That would be horrible. Submitting your family to a lifetime of foodstamps and apartment living. It seems you are taking the Prosperity thing to an extreme....is it the same for the Poverty thing? Are we to keep our family in a van down by the river in order to get into heaven?

disdain
/ [dis-deyn, di-steyn]
–verb (used with object)
1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.
2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself: to disdain replying to an insult.

GW,

Actually my disdain is not for TPC. It is for the false teaching, deception and lies that thrive in the TPC settings; it is for the manipulation that goes on in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have been part of a bible teaching church for several years now. My pastor is well respected in our community, has his degree from a reputable seminary, and teaches at a local seminary. He leads a humble, God fearing staff that love and serve the people in the church. Every weekend more than five thousand people gather to hear Truth from God's Word taught by our pastor. I have engaged him in conversation regarding the New Apostolic Reformation, the teachings of "honoring", "spiritual parenting", "covenant relationship", "double tithing"and "covering". He states that all of these are aberrant, destructive and cause great harm to people and bring reproach upon the church at large.

When you say, "Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible" you reveal your folly and weakminded belief. Do you realize that David Koresh, Jim Jones and many other cult leaders over the years have taken the bible and created their "different beliefs from the same bible" in order to control, manipulate and abuse their followers? You say you would never belong to a church that has a poverty mindset, and yet your church is poor in the Truth of God; poor in the teachings of Christ; and poor in the Freedom found in Christ. You are depraved and do not even recognize your own depravity.

If your church's belief in prosperity theology is true then why do you pass an offering plate and beg your members to give? Why not just have "faith" in your "confession" and confess that your church is rich in abundance and then give away that abundance to the poor and needy in your community? Why does your church take from your members under the guise of building a building and then use those funds for other purposes? Your members gave close to a million dollars because your leaders said they needed it to build a church building now there is less than half of those funds remaining. Like the pharisees you place burdens on the shoulders of your members that you yourself are unwilling to carry. How do you explain the poverty of Jesus or Paul or Peter? How do you explain Jesus' teachings when he spoke to the "rich" man and told him to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor? How do you explain Jesus' teaching that "blessed are the poor, for their is the Kingdom of God"? How do you explain Jesus' holding up the poor widow as a righteous example to follow? Yes, I believe your own spiritual poverty runs deep, my friend.

And you mention that I seem hurt after 12 and half years. For the sake of discussion lets address what your church does and doesnt do to those whom they have hurt. What is your church's responsibility to those whom they have hurt? How many people have been hurt by your church? How many people have had their financial resources diverted to the selfish whims of your church's leader? How many parents have lost their children because of your churchs' teaching on "spiritual parenting"? How many husbands and wives have divorced because your church leaders have taught that if a spouse does not agree with the teachings of the church they should be divorced? How many of your members live in fear of asking questions or stating disagreement because of your churchs' teaching on "covering" and "unity"? What has your church done to correct and make amends for the hurt they have caused in many lives?

How does one get to heaven? Is it through "gaining the whole world"? Jesus taught that to gain the whole world was the surest path to losing ones soul. So how does one get to the kingdom of heaven, my friend? Blessed are the poor, for theirs IS the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you, GW, plan on getting to heaven? On a path paved with Gold and Silver stolen from the flock of your 'church'?

TPR - sounds like you found a great church that fits what you like, that is great. I am certainly not depraved or weak minded. I don't have decades of salvation behind me. I have only been saved a relatively short time. As far as your 20 questions, I am not a walking bible. You are far more equipped to answer them with the biblical answer you will like.

I find it interesting that I post "that you must have really been hurt by the church" and I am accused of attacking you. Yet you can call me weak-minded and depraved.

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TurningPointReject

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GodsWarrior
I definitely don't think that Pastor David Luster is weak minded. I can't imagine what happened to you in that first year to have so much disdain for the TPC and the Villamors. You seem very hurt after 12+ years. Have you found a good church since then? I also would not assume that all TPC people are weak minded followers. Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible. For example, I would not want to be part of a church that had the poverty mindset. That would be horrible. Submitting your family to a lifetime of foodstamps and apartment living. It seems you are taking the Prosperity thing to an extreme....is it the same for the Poverty thing? Are we to keep our family in a van down by the river in order to get into heaven?

disdain
/ [dis-deyn, di-steyn]
–verb (used with object)
1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.
2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself: to disdain replying to an insult.

GW,

Actually my disdain is not for TPC. It is for the false teaching, deception and lies that thrive in the TPC settings; it is for the manipulation that goes on in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have been part of a bible teaching church for several years now. My pastor is well respected in our community, has his degree from a reputable seminary, and teaches at a local seminary. He leads a humble, God fearing staff that love and serve the people in the church. Every weekend more than five thousand people gather to hear Truth from God's Word taught by our pastor. I have engaged him in conversation regarding the New Apostolic Reformation, the teachings of "honoring", "spiritual parenting", "covenant relationship", "double tithing"and "covering". He states that all of these are aberrant, destructive and cause great harm to people and bring reproach upon the church at large.

When you say, "Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible" you reveal your folly and weakminded belief. Do you realize that David Koresh, Jim Jones and many other cult leaders over the years have taken the bible and created their "different beliefs from the same bible" in order to control, manipulate and abuse their followers? You say you would never belong to a church that has a poverty mindset, and yet your church is poor in the Truth of God; poor in the teachings of Christ; and poor in the Freedom found in Christ. You are depraved and do not even recognize your own depravity.

If your church's belief in prosperity theology is true then why do you pass an offering plate and beg your members to give? Why not just have "faith" in your "confession" and confess that your church is rich in abundance and then give away that abundance to the poor and needy in your community? Why does your church take from your members under the guise of building a building and then use those funds for other purposes? Your members gave close to a million dollars because your leaders said they needed it to build a church building now there is less than half of those funds remaining. Like the pharisees you place burdens on the shoulders of your members that you yourself are unwilling to carry. How do you explain the poverty of Jesus or Paul or Peter? How do you explain Jesus' teachings when he spoke to the "rich" man and told him to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor? How do you explain Jesus' teaching that "blessed are the poor, for their is the Kingdom of God"? How do you explain Jesus' holding up the poor widow as a righteous example to follow? Yes, I believe your own spiritual poverty runs deep, my friend.

And you mention that I seem hurt after 12 and half years. For the sake of discussion lets address what your church does and doesnt do to those whom they have hurt. What is your church's responsibility to those whom they have hurt? How many people have been hurt by your church? How many people have had their financial resources diverted to the selfish whims of your church's leader? How many parents have lost their children because of your churchs' teaching on "spiritual parenting"? How many husbands and wives have divorced because your church leaders have taught that if a spouse does not agree with the teachings of the church they should be divorced? How many of your members live in fear of asking questions or stating disagreement because of your churchs' teaching on "covering" and "unity"? What has your church done to correct and make amends for the hurt they have caused in many lives?

How does one get to heaven? Is it through "gaining the whole world"? Jesus taught that to gain the whole world was the surest path to losing ones soul. So how does one get to the kingdom of heaven, my friend? Blessed are the poor, for theirs IS the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you, GW, plan on getting to heaven? On a path paved with Gold and Silver stolen from the flock of your 'church'?

Do they accept tithes and offerings at your church? Is it taught?