TP Attender,

You and others staying at TP are in my prayers! I have to share though, my one concern about those choosing to stay and evoke change. TP is not a safe place. The deceit, the gossip.....people are *turning* on eachother. I can't inagine how difficult it is to be free in worshiping the King, when you fear that your every move is being scrutinized by others. The distortion of the truth is so subtle, that unless you (gneral you) are paying very close attention, it's easy to get swept away. I will be praying for you and others, for your protection. Put on your armor, and be like the bereans, study and question every things that's taught.

I would also throw out there, that a plan may be in order. Of course, one doesn't want to limit God, but *I* would not stay indefinitely, hoping that today might be the day that change takes place. I would set up a time line, and an expectation of change. A month, six months even...then determine what type of change I expect to see in that time...repentance (what does that look like at this point?)?.....renouncing false teachings?....resignation of certain leaders? The list goes on, and likely is a little different for each person or family.

Of course, I don't want to see TP fail. But honestly? I would rather she fail now than to continue down the collision course she is on. It's so heart breaking to watch. Though at the same time, I can't help but praise God that my family and I are on the outside of that "burning building".....praying, praying, praying.

Brokenhearted - Amen to that. To say it is hard to enter into worship and receive would be accurate. It is a struggle beyond measure right now. My wife is having a tough time too. The kids program is safe in my opinion so we feel OK about our kids. Lot's of praying in my house. I am not looking for a neon that says 'leave now' either. I think I will know – God is faithful.

I think most of the 'unsafe' manifestations are within a set group. I enjoy the fringe people and their company. I have not sensed a real discernable feeling one way or another from them. My leadership responsibilities expose me to some of the effects. People are getting hurt. I would hate to be the web editor right now, what does it feel like when you keep removing names from the site? I spoke to a couple yesterday that is struggling to figure out what to do. What a crappy place for them to find there self in. I know from first hand sources that there are several people that have made appointments with pastors to address issues. Pray for them.

I understand what you mean when you state that you would rather have it fall than keep causing damage. That is something I did not consider, thank you. I see the body as a whole and there is still an enormous love for Christ and a genuine desire to show his love by the congregation. Change is needed and soon.

Attender....I neglected to tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share here, and open your heart. It doesn't appear as though you are judging those of us that have chosen to leave, and that is refreshing. I really believe that we all desire the same thing....truth, pure and simple. Thank you for sharing.

Revelation!

I just wanted to share my praise with you all....maybe offer hope to those who are hurting so deserately in this moment.

I realized this week, that life really does go on beyond TP...and *moving on* is much easier after having made the initial decision to leave. My family went though much turmoil in coming to that decision. There was fear, there was the process of letting go of our dreams for the future (that we had always invisioned including TP), there was heartbreak for oneanother and for our children. Going through that process was likely the most difficult thing that my husband and I have ever had to do (and for that I praise God!).

We found though, that leaving was much, much easier than staying. I've cried much since leaving, I cried more though, trying to decide whether to stay or go. There are bad days, I expect that there will continue to be bad days for a while. I still care about what goes on, I love the people that make up TP. I still get angry when I hear a new (but the same) story....but it's moved to a righteous anger, not an emotional one. God has been so gracious to me!

I am no way healed completely, but I am on my way, and it feels good. I am confident of my saviors love, despite my own inadequacies. God wants us to PROSPER (yeah, I said it, lol). He wants us to grow in our love for Him, and in our faith. I feel like I've already gained so much in the short time I've been away from TP. I trust (and continue to pray) that He will do the same for you.

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tpcwocattender
Hello Forum - I am not a staff member or elder but I am in leadership at TPC. Let me say this, there is more than you might expect that are aware of the issues currently at TPC. There is a struggle to know what to do, most are trying to help and feel God is calling them to stay. The day may be coming when that changes but for now you can know that some eyes are wide open.

Do we really want TPC to crash and burn in an ugly mess? I am not implying that you do, this is a rhetorical question. Can you imagine the collateral damage of such a mess? Regrettably there is collateral damage now and some of you are the victims. What a mess! I would have bet money years ago that TPC would never be in this position. Well, here we are. This stinks! (No pun intended in regards to the poo-poo incident). We need to kick Satan's you-know-what out of this church! He has a foothold and as you all know we do not battle flesh and blood. Our real enemy is a crafty and incredibly devious individual and he has had too many victories. We war with prayer and if you are not praying pray! We can't do anything to help remove veils and deliver truth. We may be lucky enough to have Christ decide to use us and if that opportunity comes I pray we are ready and obedient. The power of the Holy Spirit changes hearts and opens eyes.

For a current up to date status of the state of TPC I can sum it up with this one word - unrest. There is mounting concern and I would anticipate something to happen soon. What that is I don't want to hazard a guess. I pray it is as peaceful as possible. Is it really beyond our God to open the eyes of those who need to see truth and have true repentance and a healthy end to this? Of coarse not. That, and I am sure you agree, would be the ending to this we all would like to see. I don't know if the consultant was able to help in seeing the real issues at TPC. I think the forums used to collect information did not facilitate a open and honest response. There was too much pressure to find good things to say and too awkward an environment to say what one was really thinking. Most people don't like to face confrontation head on, they prefer a more passive approach. The letter from Pastor Mike was encouraging because four real issues where highlighted and they do need to be addressed. As a church body if we can improve in the areas highlighted (communication, new member/believer connection, church structure, individual ministry support) we will function much more effectively for God's Kingdom. I would cut and past the letter for all to read but I do need to respect the process of communication. This is a personal issue of integrity that I feel it would not be right.

I love to talk so if any of you want to have a healthy conversation about how we can help TPC one morning over a cup of Starbucks I am game. Just know this, I am only interested in a conversation that I would not mind if someone taped and played back for Pastor Mike himself. What do I mean by that? Simple, what is our motive? Is it to help or hurt? I want to help.

"Father God - you and only you can heal broken hearts and restore lives. I trust in your timing and your means in which you are working in everyone who is affected by the circumstances at Turning Point. Let us be part of the solution to removing Satan's hold over lives. Send Your angels to help protect families and those new to the faith. The same spirit that dwells in me dwells in all who confess you as their savior. Rise up Your Spirit in all of us! I specifically lift up the leadership at Turning Point. Father these people are Your children and you love them. You know the truth and only you can judge the heart and motives of a person. It is clear that something is wrong to those within the body at Turning Point. We ask for healing and revelation. We ask that Your spirit shout so load as to drown out the lies. We ask that those who have influence in the lives of the leadership be given an opportunity to speak truth. We pray that you would open their hearts to hear truth. Protect the innocent. Guard their eyes and ears to the destructive nature of what is transpiring. Amen"

I would like to address something said by 'tell the truth.' I know it was hard to have Cyndi say that she had not heard from God. God uses His word to speak to you. He doesn't use the same method to speak to everyone. Why? Where would the faith be if we all know exactly how God was going to speak to us today? We are all unique and God desires to grow in faith. He will stretch all of us in our walk with him. Today he may speak to me through dreams but I can't be blind to other ways he may speak to me. You questioned whether he really 'speaks' to us. I assume you meant in an audible voice in our head. I think he does, I would encourage you to do a personal study on this. John 10:27 says that 'my sheep listen to my voice' - I interpret this as not metaphorical but all encompassing. I personally don't think we should limit the methods that God can use to speak to His people.

God Bless you all! - Keep Praying!

Dear TP Attender,

Thank you for your honesty and your input. However, I must disagree with you. What's going on at TPC is not a matter of disagreement or that people want to see it crash and burn. Things against the word has been going on for years now. Morally, Ethically and most important Biblically, Mike and Cyndi should not even have the title of being "Pastors". This whole mess is not only about small little hurts. It has been detrimental to the health and wellbeing of God's Children...... His people.

Do I pray for TPC to change. Yes, for a couple of years I prayed for the Lord to lay it on their hearts of what the church was doing to people. However, Mike and Cyndy have not obeyed God and have gone their own ways. I have sent e-mails and letters to them on behalf of our family and NOT ONCE have they ever approached us with an apology or explanation. I'm sorry to be harsh. "Truth IS Truth". I don't know what's being told to all of you. Mike and Cyndi are great speakers and that's all it is. It's a great way to manipulate people.

May the Lord be with You ~ May you be protected and unharmed!

I have to agree with Miki, TPAttender!

There is no mention in Mike's strategy for change of abandoning false doctrines. You can do all the PR you want to; you can morph an image, work on outreach, structure, and ministry support, but if you're dwelling in falsehood you're on a sinking ship! The GOSPEL is the power of God to salvation, not a new church strategy/business plan. (And the Gospel I speak of is not the false word-faith gospel, either!)

Your message said, "The letter from Pastor Mike was encouraging because four real issues where highlighted and they do need to be addressed. As a church body if we can improve in the areas highlighted (communication, new member/believer connection, church structure, individual ministry support) we will function much more effectively for God's Kingdom."

What is better functioning going to do to help heal the hurt, to stop the deception, to get the focus back on Jesus and God's Word?

And speaking of the Word, how do people ever know they're hearing accurately from God through "impressions" and "dreams" when a vast number of them are biblically illiterate? Mike and Cyndi could tell them myths and many, many would swallow them whole without ever consulting the scriptures. Everyone would do well to stop trusting their perceptions until they know what the Word actually says. Mike is not teaching people the scriptures; he's teaching them his own ideas and supporting them by quoting scripture out of context. There a BIG difference!

We have more than enough direction from the Word. The other modes of direction God may use, but they will always be IN CONJUNCTION WITH and SECONDARY TO the Scriptures. Do not minimize this reality, please. It's what has helped to get Turning Point to the dangerous place at which it has arrived.

Can you answer the question: How was Mike able to smuggle false doctrines into the church? Please ponder it. Also, can you articulate the false doctrines that are coming to the congregation from the pulpit--both from Mike and guest speakers? Oh, dear friend, please believe me when I tell you that these are the "real issues" that are also fatal flaws at Turning Point, not communication, new believer connection, church structure, and ministry support.

Mike is a master "spinner." I have first-hand experience hearing how he spins things. He'll beat the unity drum to divert your attention from the people who are telling the truth. He'll tell you they're creating disunity, when really they're exposing the danger he doesn't want to face or to have you see. He'll call in a consultant rather than repent. He'll preach an emotional, stirring message to get you to doubt yourself and your misgivings about the facade you've discovered is in place at the church. Etc., etc., etc.

Stay if you wish, but don't bring Mike's spins here thinking we'll be sympathetic to them or to him. We'd like nothing more than to see him repent and get back on track, but the longer this goes on--the more false teachers he consults and invites in, and the more he tries to change superficial problems without acknowledging the crux--the less hope there is for the church. And it's Mike's doing, not our lack of prayer, concern, desire, or love.

We're not living in Candy Land. It's the real fallen world we're in, and our enemy, the devil, will not merely send us back a few spaces when we misstep. He's in earnest to destroy us, and we need to be in earnest too. One or two of the churches in Revelation were praised because they WOULD NOT TOLERATE false doctrine. We need to be the same way. We are not defending our own position here on this forum; we are defending the Word of God, the Gospel of Christ, and He DIED FOR THAT GOSPEL. I will not dishonor His sacrifice by tolerating garbage being fed to His people. Here I stand!

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Miki
Dear TP Attender,

Thank you for your honesty and your input. However, I must disagree with you. What's going on at TPC is not a matter of disagreement or that people want to see it crash and burn. Things against the word has been going on for years now. Morally, Ethically and most important Biblically, Mike and Cyndi should not even have the title of being "Pastors". This whole mess is not only about small little hurts. It has been detrimental to the health and wellbeing of God's Children...... His people.

Do I pray for TPC to change. Yes, for a couple of years I prayed for the Lord to lay it on their hearts of what the church was doing to people. However, Mike and Cyndy have not obeyed God and have gone their own ways. I have sent e-mails and letters to them on behalf of our family and NOT ONCE have they ever approached us with an apology or explanation. I'm sorry to be harsh. "Truth IS Truth". I don't know what's being told to all of you. Mike and Cyndi are great speakers and that's all it is. It's a great way to manipulate people.

May the Lord be with You ~ May you be protected and unharmed!

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2009 10:57AM by LearningPoint.

LP - I am going to state something with the understanding that I will in turn get shot down. Why would I do this? Well, if you haven't figured out I like to invoke thought and challenge perspective. For this next statement I might be in for a verbal beating but it will be interesting nonetheless.

Is there any merit to the idea that tpc's current doctrine is not as false as you claim if ones perspective is pentacostal? I personally have heard from the pulpit an attempt to balance the prosperity and word of faith overtones. This is a hard sell, I know and I am not trying to sell. I also understand that when Doctor Increase comes to town the pendulum swings way out of wack.

I know that statement is full of holes and it was not my intention to make a completely sound argument. Simply put,does someone who believes in prosperity and word of faith disqualify themselves for salvation?

Hi tpcwocattender,

One of the things that I did when I started to question the direction and doctrine being taught at TPC was do online research by topic and then I checked the information against scripture and then I formed my own opinion. I have given you the information of the faulty foundation of the five fold ministry in a seperate post. There is also information about the word of faith doctrine try [www.intotruth.org]. I would also encourage you to do your own research and then go to your Bible. The Bible has every answer we will ever need. There is even move about the prosperity teachings. Try [www.christianissues.com], I also found the following on Wikipedia (an online encyclopedia):

Critics argue that the teaching actually is a teaching of materialism masquerading as theology in spite of no valid biblical support.

Critics claim evidence shows that it is the accumulation of wealth and material goods and not "Gospel work" that is the major hallmark of this movement[12].

Biblical criticism includes[13]:

* 1 Timothy 6:7-10 - "For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."
* Matthew 6:19-21, 24; Luke 16:13 - "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. . . . For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
* Luke 18:22-25 - ". . . it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
* 1 John 2:15 - "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
* 1 Timothy 6:3-5 - "If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."
* Matthew 19:21 - Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
* 1 Timothy 2:9 - "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
* Proverbs 22:16 - He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty.
* Matthew 6:19-20 - "But lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where theives break through and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal"
* Revelation 2:9 - "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."
* Proverbs 28:22 - "He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him."
* Acts 8:20 - "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
* Proverbs 13:7 - "There is he that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches."
* Habakkuk 3:17-18 - "Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be joyful in God my Savior."

[edit] Other criticisms

Prosperity teaching seems to promote more self-gratification than true spirituality. Furthermore, aspects of its theology seem overly simplistic and formulaic with critics commonly referring to the doctrine as "Name-It-Claim-It."[14]

* The most notable criticism of the prosperity gospel was demonstrated by a Charismatic theologian from Oral Roberts University, by the name of D. R. McConnell. His book A Different Gospel shows how Kenneth Hagin not only plagiarized prosperity teachings from E. W. Kenyon, but that those teachings are derived from metaphysical denominations such as New Thought and Unity School of Christianity.

* "Money has always been mankind's greatest temptation. People wrestle against the truth everyday. The kingdom of God is not the American Dream - one is spiritual and the other is physical." Anthony K.Thigpen, David W. Austin

* Donnie Swaggart, a notable Pentecostal minister, has preached strongly against the prosperity gospel. He has gone on record for saying, "The modern-day greed gospel is one of the worst cancers and blights on the present-day Church. I don't apologize for saying that, I'm not gonna back up for saying that, and I'm not gonna apologize saying that. It is evil, it is a cancer, and it leads to covetousness, and it leads to destruction. There is no difference between the evil of that message and the evil of Las Vegas, Atlantic City, or any other place of gambling. Actually, Las Vegas and Atlantic City and any other casino is more holy than that demonic greed gospel, because casinos do not bring God into their lives."[15]

* "Any gospel that cannot be preached in a third-world country is not the True Gospel of Jesus Christ." -- Baptist pastor and televangelist, David Jeremiah

* "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time." -- Mahatma Gandhi[16]

* The prosperity theology defines quality of life based on quantity of possessions. This deceptive movement teaches that financial lack is based on limited faith and minimal giving. The theme of Christianity is not money. How to get rich and have everything you ever wanted, is Satan's message modernized. Money is a mere illusion. God gave his only Son so that life would become more meaningful, namely spiritual. Money does not make life valuable, God does." Anthony K.Thigpen, David W. Austin


I am not trying to shoot you down. I am merely pointing out that you cannot just blindly accept whatever doctrine Pastor Mike or any pastor, for that matter, is teaching. You must test and question and then decide for yourself if the teaching is sound and the source you must use to judge is the Bible. Prayer and your Bible will lead you to find your answers. As for judging teachers, the Bible says you will know them by their fruit, we must all be fruit inspectors. Galatians 5:22 says "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness," There are expectations for the behavior of pastors. They are the shepherds of their flock and responsible for the well being, health, and welfare of their flock. Be a fruit inspector!!! The fruits of Pastor Mike and the Elders will show them for what they are.

Daughter of Dorcas

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tpcwocattender
LP - I am going to state something with the understanding that I will in turn get shot down. Why would I do this? Well, if you haven't figured out I like to invoke thought and challenge perspective. For this next statement I might be in for a verbal beating but it will be interesting nonetheless.

Is there any merit to the idea that tpc's current doctrine is not as false as you claim if ones perspective is pentacostal? I personally have heard from the pulpit an attempt to balance the prosperity and word of faith overtones. This is a hard sell, I know and I am not trying to sell. I also understand that when Doctor Increase comes to town the pendulum swings way out of wack.

I know that statement is full of holes and it was not my intention to make a completely sound argument. Simply put,does someone who believes in prosperity and word of faith disqualify themselves for salvation?

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tpcwocattender
LP - I am going to state something with the understanding that I will in turn get shot down. Why would I do this? Well, if you haven't figured out I like to invoke thought and challenge perspective. For this next statement I might be in for a verbal beating but it will be interesting nonetheless.

Is there any merit to the idea that tpc's current doctrine is not as false as you claim if ones perspective is pentacostal? I personally have heard from the pulpit an attempt to balance the prosperity and word of faith overtones. This is a hard sell, I know and I am not trying to sell. I also understand that when Doctor Increase comes to town the pendulum swings way out of wack.

I know that statement is full of holes and it was not my intention to make a completely sound argument. Simply put,does someone who believes in prosperity and word of faith disqualify themselves for salvation?

ok so I may be way off but I know a wolf in sheeps clothing tries to look like a sheep tries to blend in but has its own agenda to devour the sheep. Im wondering attender, and I admit it just may be me, but are you coming as an angel of light,while all the while trying to interject your own personal prejudice towards the rightness of tpwoc. It seems everytime someone comes on here and states their just trying to provoke thought, they are actually trying to munipulate with questions. If others out there think I'm just paranoid please respond. I wish to know the truth and not be blinded by my OWN prejudice. thanks

TP attender:

Welcome, and thanks for taking time to post here on the forum.

I would encourage you to take the time to read the posts related to Radiant Life Church, as well as all the posts related to Turning Point. You may want to take a bit of time to respond to the questions, concerns, and hurts of those who have posted in these forums.

Many times people come here and seek to provoke thought (which is good), or simply seek to defend TPc (which is fine) without having taken time to discover why people have posted here; why people have left TPc. One of the repetitive issues is the unwillingness to hear the concerns of people or to dismiss those concerns with statements like, "If you don't like it, you can leave (which many are doing)", or "You are in a very dangerous place" etc.

While I appreciate the fact that you are posting here on the forum, I have yet to see any post of yours that would lead me to believe that you have taken time to UNDERSTAND those who are posting here and their concerns. Seek first to understand-then be understood. I believe that approach will yield results and you won't have to worry about being "shot down". More often than not, people get shot down because they havent taken the time to really understand what and why people are posting here.

Again, thank you. You are truly welcome here. I look forward to hearing more from you.

TPR