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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 14, 2009 01:41AM

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GodsWarrior
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Forgiveness_101
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GodsWarrior
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buddy
TPWOC Last Sunday's sermon by Pastor Mike on: Recession Proof Your Profession: Is now back up on there web site! How many times does Pastor Mike use the word prosper!


I am not sure I understand why believing that God wants me to prosper is a bad thing. If God loves me and I belong to him why would he not bless me and want me to prosper?
I like to think that when I am seeking him I am rewarded. Does it not say in the Bible to ask and things will be given to you?


To help cover what Buddy said....Although what he said was very helpful.. thank you buddy.

I would like to add to it.


Believing that God wants me to prosper is not a bad thing.
In fact I believe he wants the best for me, but sometimes to prosper i must first suffer, and when i have faith in my suffering such as JOB had, even after all he had was lost, HE STILL DID NOT CURSE GOD! He was blessed for his faith, God's love is independent from the stuff I have or the heath i have, and so is my faith, my faith is not in that i get what i want when i want, it is in God will always be faithful,

Imagine this philosophy in Africa, thousands dieing from aids, then some one tells you no more starving, if you give God a faith offering so you see masses hear this word that the "no more pain and suffering and anything you want with a drop of a coin" So masses of poor people making a few pennies a day,
give all they have and THE PREACHER GETS MONEY FROM THEM!!! This is not the gospel... its sick deception at its core.

Oh please read many translations of Mathew 7 it provides a better meaning for what Jesus meant... I don't think that when Jesus said (Mathew 7:7) that you get whatever you want, when ever you meant... You have to understand translations are already doing some translating for you so please check other scholarly sources and commentaries of Mathew 7:7.

Forgiveness_101
It is when our belief that consumes us to think that our faith has control over the very "WILL" of God.

I believe that we are rewarded based on our level of faith. The more faith you have the more rewards you may recieve. I do not believe that we are rewarded based on "acts" which is what I get from your african penny analogy. All the acting in the world will get you nothing but cursed. In my experience greater levels of faith in the Lord has resulted in greater prosperity in the rest of my life.
I guess that means Jesus's disciples had no faith since they didn't seem to prosper in the worlds wealth. and in fact were killed for thier efforts. What is wrong with this the more faith you have the more prosparity you get doesnt go along with what Jesus taught. what happened to dont store your treasures on earth why have the things of God been narrowed down to cash? abundant life = money honor=money faith=money If you think about it drug dealers swindlers thieves make lots of money, is it becasue of thier faith? true faith is shown when you have nothing and yet have joy in the Lord and trust in Him. When you measure your faith gods warrior by how much prosperity you have, your setting yourself up for a big fall.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 14, 2009 02:09AM

Broken Hearted,

There will be those who will seek to attack you for pointing out Truth. Those who challenge you and state you are "in dangerous territory"-are they posters from this forum or are they apologists for TPC (rhetorical question)? The labeling of one as a slanderer or gossip is typical of controlling and manipulative churches.

This forum is a place for you to process your own personal experience at TPC. Sometimes you will express anger. Sometimes you will post with passion and "emotion" (does Mike V deliver his message without passion or emotion). Yes, I agree we should always consider our personal motives for posting here. We must also consider the motives of those who would seek to label us as "bitter", "jealous", "angry", "in a dangerous place", etc.

I have noticed that TPC and RLC is given to the practice of using dictionary definitions in order to bring "weight" to their message. So here is the definition for gossip:

gossip
[gos-uhp] noun, verb, -siped or -sipped, -sip;ing or -sip;ping.
–noun
1. idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others: the endless gossip about Hollywood stars.
2. light, familiar talk or writing.
3. Also, gossiper, a person given to tattling or idle talk.

So then it begs to be asked: Is your talk here "idle talk" (5. of no real worth, importance, or significance: idle talk. )? Is your talk based on rumor or on experience? Is it concerning private affairs or public teachings?

Each of us must ask ourselves everytime we post, "Why am I posting"? I post for three reasons: to WARN, to ENCOURAGE, and to REFUTE.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2009 02:11AM by TurningPointReject.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 14, 2009 02:16AM

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Brokenhearted
It has been brought to my attention that I may have gone a bit overboard in posting here. That I'm entering dangerous territory that could easily turn to gossip. I haven't determined yet if I agree, but I will be taking a step back, to consider this. These are a few questions that I'm asking myself.

*Why am I posting here? What is my heart condition, and what do I hope to accomplish?

*Do the things that I share here have value? Will my words (and actions) glorify the Lord?

*Am I sharing truth? Is the *truth* skewed by my perception?

*Is my delievery offensive to others? Is the message that I wish to relay lost b/c I use offensive terms, or use too many words, or am I too emotional, or, or....?

I am not seeking feedback on *my* actions (though you are welcome to p/m me if you feel it's necessary). I do not want to turn this into something about me, nor am I singling out one poster. I am bringing these issues public, b/c I think that it could benefit us all, to consider our hearts, and how others perceive our actions. We are called to be above reproach. That's what I'm asking of TPC, and it's what I expect of myself.

I think that there has been some great dialog here, and I hope it doesn't stop. I don't plan on exiting this forum, just being cautious. I think that it's important to bring the issues into the light, and to address them.

Members of TP, I love you, dearly. I've never intended to hurt you.

~BH

I'm wondering, who is it, that is trying to guilt you for having the freedom to express yourself? to guilt you, because your asking questions....expressing your conscerns.....testifying about your observations....and weighing in with your openions.
I am wondering what is the motivation behind a person that would try to guilt you into silence.

This is a tactic that is used often by people who are part of that lock-step-movement.

These people will PM you. posing to be on your side or agreeing with you, then give you a holy as swiss cheese guilt trip.

BraveHeart

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 14, 2009 02:26AM

TPR~

I didn't mean to imply that the person *warning* me used the term "dangerous territory", that was mine, and mine alone. I don't think that it matters where the warning came from though, if it was a righteous message...I'm still weighing that. I honestly don't believe that the message was a manipulitive one, nor was it malicious. In fact, it opened the door for some excellent dialog.

I am seeking the truth. I believe that others here are too. We have asked TPC leaders and memebers to open up about the teachings and what they believe. We've asked that they be upfront about it, not hide it, and just be honest. I think that we owe them the respect of at least listening to what they have to say.....even if we disagree. I don't think that we should instantly shut them down (accussing them of attacks) when they share their pov. Isn't that what we've complained about TPC doing to us?

There are a number of posters here that are passionately against everything that is TPC and/or RLC. We accept that, b/c they've been hurt. They have the right to feel what they feel, and to express those feelings. I think that TPC members should have the same right.......

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 14, 2009 02:34AM

GodsWarrior
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I definitely don't think that Pastor David Luster is weak minded. I can't imagine what happened to you in that first year to have so much disdain for the TPC and the Villamors. You seem very hurt after 12+ years. Have you found a good church since then? I also would not assume that all TPC people are weak minded followers. Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible. For example, I would not want to be part of a church that had the poverty mindset. That would be horrible. Submitting your family to a lifetime of foodstamps and apartment living. It seems you are taking the Prosperity thing to an extreme....is it the same for the Poverty thing? Are we to keep our family in a van down by the river in order to get into heaven?


disdain
/ [dis-deyn, di-steyn]
–verb (used with object)
1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.
2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself: to disdain replying to an insult.

GW,

Actually my disdain is not for TPC. It is for the false teaching, deception and lies that thrive in the TPC settings; it is for the manipulation that goes on in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have been part of a bible teaching church for several years now. My pastor is well respected in our community, has his degree from a reputable seminary, and teaches at a local seminary. He leads a humble, God fearing staff that love and serve the people in the church. Every weekend more than five thousand people gather to hear Truth from God's Word taught by our pastor. I have engaged him in conversation regarding the New Apostolic Reformation, the teachings of "honoring", "spiritual parenting", "covenant relationship", "double tithing"and "covering". He states that all of these are aberrant, destructive and cause great harm to people and bring reproach upon the church at large.

When you say, "Churches have different beliefs and all from the same bible" you reveal your folly and weakminded belief. Do you realize that David Koresh, Jim Jones and many other cult leaders over the years have taken the bible and created their "different beliefs from the same bible" in order to control, manipulate and abuse their followers? You say you would never belong to a church that has a poverty mindset, and yet your church is poor in the Truth of God; poor in the teachings of Christ; and poor in the Freedom found in Christ. Your beliefs are depraved and you fail recognize your own depravity.

If your church's belief in prosperity theology is true then why do you pass an offering plate and beg your members to give? Why not just have "faith" in your "confession" and confess that your church is rich in abundance and then give away that abundance to the poor and needy in your community? Why does your church take from your members under the guise of building a building and then use those funds for other purposes? Your members gave close to a million dollars because your leaders said they needed it to build a church building now there is less than half of those funds remaining. Like the pharisees you place burdens on the shoulders of your members that you yourself are unwilling to carry. How do you explain the poverty of Jesus or Paul or Peter? How do you explain Jesus' teachings when he spoke to the "rich" man and told him to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor? How do you explain Jesus' teaching that "blessed are the poor, for their is the Kingdom of God"? How do you explain Jesus' holding up the poor widow as a righteous example to follow? Yes, I believe your own spiritual poverty runs deep, my friend.

And you mention that I seem hurt after 12 and half years. For the sake of discussion lets address what your church does and doesnt do to those whom they have hurt. What is your church's responsibility to those whom they have hurt? How many people have been hurt by your church? How many people have had their financial resources diverted to the selfish whims of your church's leader? How many parents have lost their children because of your churchs' teaching on "spiritual parenting"? How many husbands and wives have divorced because your church leaders have taught that if a spouse does not agree with the teachings of the church they should be divorced? How many of your members live in fear of asking questions or stating disagreement because of your churchs' teaching on "covering" and "unity"? What has your church done to correct and make amends for the hurt they have caused in many lives?

How does one get to heaven? Is it through "gaining the whole world"? Jesus taught that to gain the whole world was the surest path to losing ones soul. So how does one get to the kingdom of heaven, my friend? Blessed are the poor, for theirs IS the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you, GW, plan on getting to heaven? On a path paved with Gold and Silver stolen from the flock of your 'church'?

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 14, 2009 03:06AM

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Brokenhearted
TPR~

I didn't mean to imply that the person *warning* me used the term "dangerous territory", that was mine, and mine alone. I don't think that it matters where the warning came from though, if it was a righteous message...I'm still weighing that. I honestly don't believe that the message was a manipulitive one, nor was it malicious. In fact, it opened the door for some excellent dialog.

I am seeking the truth. I believe that others here are too. We have asked TPC leaders and memebers to open up about the teachings and what they believe. We've asked that they be upfront about it, not hide it, and just be honest. I think that we owe them the respect of at least listening to what they have to say.....even if we disagree. I don't think that we should instantly shut them down (accussing them of attacks) when they share their pov. Isn't that what we've complained about TPC doing to us?

There are a number of posters here that are passionately against everything that is TPC and/or RLC. We accept that, b/c they've been hurt. They have the right to feel what they feel, and to express those feelings. I think that TPC members should have the same right.......

I agree whole heartedly, BH. We need to be open to what TPCers have to say. I wish TPCers would open up about the teachings and beliefs of their church. I have yet to see that occur. What I do see is many "straw man" arguments by TPCers.

When others insinuate you are close to gossip/idle talk when instead you are speaking of matters of great significance they are attacking your POV. Others have posted on this site that they have been told they were "on dangerous ground" when asking questions or deciding to leave TPc. Again, this is common among churches that are abusive and controlling.

Those who post here are not against TPc or even RLc. They are concerned about the abuse that is taking place in the name of God and Christ Jesus at these places. I have not seen posts that denigrate the "good" things that either of these groups do. But I have seen testimony of the destructive nature of many of the teachings that have taken place in these two churches. Their own teachings end up denigrating their "good works".

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: outreach ()
Date: March 14, 2009 03:21AM

Quote
GodsWarrior
Quote
Forgiveness_101
Quote
GodsWarrior
Quote
buddy
TPWOC Last Sunday's sermon by Pastor Mike on: Recession Proof Your Profession: Is now back up on there web site! How many times does Pastor Mike use the word prosper!


I am not sure I understand why believing that God wants me to prosper is a bad thing. If God loves me and I belong to him why would he not bless me and want me to prosper?
I like to think that when I am seeking him I am rewarded. Does it not say in the Bible to ask and things will be given to you?


To help cover what Buddy said....Although what he said was very helpful.. thank you buddy.

I would like to add to it.


Believing that God wants me to prosper is not a bad thing.
In fact I believe he wants the best for me, but sometimes to prosper i must first suffer, and when i have faith in my suffering such as JOB had, even after all he had was lost, HE STILL DID NOT CURSE GOD! He was blessed for his faith, God's love is independent from the stuff I have or the heath i have, and so is my faith, my faith is not in that i get what i want when i want, it is in God will always be faithful,

Imagine this philosophy in Africa, thousands dieing from aids, then some one tells you no more starving, if you give God a faith offering so you see masses hear this word that the "no more pain and suffering and anything you want with a drop of a coin" So masses of poor people making a few pennies a day,
give all they have and THE PREACHER GETS MONEY FROM THEM!!! This is not the gospel... its sick deception at its core.

Oh please read many translations of Mathew 7 it provides a better meaning for what Jesus meant... I don't think that when Jesus said (Mathew 7:7) that you get whatever you want, when ever you meant... You have to understand translations are already doing some translating for you so please check other scholarly sources and commentaries of Mathew 7:7.

Forgiveness_101
It is when our belief that consumes us to think that our faith has control over the very "WILL" of God.

I believe that we are rewarded based on our level of faith. The more faith you have the more rewards you may recieve. I do not believe that we are rewarded based on "acts" which is what I get from your african penny analogy. All the acting in the world will get you nothing but cursed. In my experience greater levels of faith in the Lord has resulted in greater prosperity in the rest of my life.

GodWarrior,

I have different friends that have a lot of faith yet are not rich. That whole not enough faith is dangerous thinking. You were not healed because you did not have enough faith. I had a very good friend that continue to claim until the end that she was going to be healed. She died. God is the one who decides. I think you need to get into the word and study it yourself and not believe everything you hear from TPCWOC. There is so much I would like to say but out of time.

Outreach

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 14, 2009 03:40AM

BrohenHearted

who was it on TPC staff that guilted you into this train wreck of thought?
When you make a blanket statement like this one
"There are a number of posters here that are passionately against everything that is TPC and/or RLC. We accept that, b/c they've been hurt. They have the right to feel what they feel, and to express those feelings. I think that TPC members should have the same right......"
THAT STATEMENT IS SUCH A LIE!
AND IT COMES FROM SOMBODY WHO HAS NOT READ ALL OF THE POSTINGS REGARDING TPC & RLC!..

Don't make assumsions here about the people posting about the false teachings that are coming out of Tony & Mike!

Again the issues here on this site are the many layers of false teachngs that have been covertly
put upon the inocent believers at these churches...

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 14, 2009 04:01AM

Oh it is so easy for Mike & Tony to stand up on stage and slander any one who would question what they are teaching. To demonize us as being against the church body! that my friends is what Mr. Mike did last Sunday.. He is trying to pitch church members against any one who would question his teachings like spiritual parenting etc.
For Mike to stand up there and mock any one who has questions,
shows us just how shallow he is thinking.

Come on Mike pull out you man card.
my challange still stands come on here and answer our questions.

Or I will gladly meet you for a public debate.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 14, 2009 04:28AM

I just want to clarify that I have not been guilted. I am not defeated. I have not been accused of gossip, only warned not to cross into that territory, it's a valid warning, and one that we should all consider everytime we post.

"There are a number of posters here that are passionately against everything that is TPC and/or RLC. We accept
that, b/c they've been hurt. They have the right to feel what they feel, and to express those feelings. I think that
TPC members should have the same right......"
THAT STATEMENT IS SUCH A LIE!
AND IT COMES FROM SOMBODY WHO HAS NOT READ ALL OF THE POSTINGS REGARDING TPC & RLC!..


Okay Braveheart, perhaps it's not entirely true. Can you point out the parts that are false? Please....b/c whether it's true or not, that's the impression that others are getting.

There have been some great discussions here lately, directly connected to the doctrine taught at TP. I think that those are great, and I would encourage TP members and leaders to jump in, and rebut anything that they disagree with. I don't think that they feel comfortable doing so though when their every post is met with "WHY ARE YOU BELIEVING MIKE'S LIES?"

And before you think that I've changed my mind about TP, I want to make it clear that I have not. I don't agree with the way that TP has treated those who have been hurt, I don't agree with some of the doctrine being taught, I don't agree with the *apostle*....there is much that I don't agree with. But some of what I don't agree with is the way that members are *greeted* when they do try to post here.

And, once again, I believe that we must be above reproach. If our methods of communication aren't clear (if we are sending the wrong message) then we aren't any better than those we accuse of false teaching.

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