I appreciate BrokenHearted's point. We need to always be on guard that we don't become like that which we see happening at TPc i.e. not allowing for questions etc. from members of TPc.

Brokenhearted I am guessing that when you have seen those brutal posts to tpc members you have PMed the poster and have asked them to reconsider their tone etc?

As for me, I invite the regular posters here to call me to account when my tone is in the wrong spirit.

Thanks Brokenhearted.

I would like to add my own thoughts to the faith/prosper philosophy.

I don't think that someone's faith can be *judged* by how much they are prospered (financially or otherwise). I don't think that we can judge a sick man as having not enough faith, when he is not healed. We can not judge a man for not having enough faith b/c he lives in an apartment. We can not judge that these men are in sin b/c of their circumstances. There are plenty of poor, but faithful men in the world. Likewise, there are plenty of wealthy but unrighteous men.

I think, that when we start judging one's faith by how much and in what ways they are prospered, then we lose focus. We become engaged in the blessing, lose sight of the One who blesses.

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Brokenhearted
I just want to clarify that I have not been guilted. I am not defeated. I have not been accused of gossip, only warned not to cross into that territory, it's a valid warning, and one that we should all consider everytime we post.

"There are a number of posters here that are passionately against everything that is TPC and/or RLC. We accept
that, b/c they've been hurt. They have the right to feel what they feel, and to express those feelings. I think that
TPC members should have the same right......"
THAT STATEMENT IS SUCH A LIE!
AND IT COMES FROM SOMBODY WHO HAS NOT READ ALL OF THE POSTINGS REGARDING TPC & RLC!..

Okay Braveheart, perhaps it's not entirely true. Can you point out the parts that are false? Please....b/c whether it's true or not, that's the impression that others are getting.

There have been some great discussions here lately, directly connected to the doctrine taught at TP. I think that those are great, and I would encourage TP members and leaders to jump in, and rebut anything that they disagree with. I don't think that they feel comfortable doing so though when their every post is met with "WHY ARE YOU BELIEVING MIKE'S LIES?"

And before you think that I've changed my mind about TP, I want to make it clear that I have not. I don't agree with the way that TP has treated those who have been hurt, I don't agree with some of the doctrine being taught, I don't agree with the *apostle*....there is much that I don't agree with. But some of what I don't agree with is the way that members are *greeted* when they do try to post here.

And, once again, I believe that we must be above reproach. If our methods of communication aren't clear (if we are sending the wrong message) then we aren't any better than those we accuse of false teaching.

Very well said BH...Thank you for that. If this were an objective forum you might see leaders debating issues. But this thread is not. Tnere are alot of truths on here. But anyone from TP leadership will be met with exactly what you said. You are objective and it is a pleasure to have a dialog with you. You make me think and ask myself questions and you come from a loving position.

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nooneofanyimportence

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GodsWarrior

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Forgiveness_101

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GodsWarrior

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buddy
TPWOC Last Sunday's sermon by Pastor Mike on: Recession Proof Your Profession: Is now back up on there web site! How many times does Pastor Mike use the word prosper!

I am not sure I understand why believing that God wants me to prosper is a bad thing. If God loves me and I belong to him why would he not bless me and want me to prosper?
I like to think that when I am seeking him I am rewarded. Does it not say in the Bible to ask and things will be given to you?

To help cover what Buddy said....Although what he said was very helpful.. thank you buddy.

I would like to add to it.


Believing that God wants me to prosper is not a bad thing.
In fact I believe he wants the best for me, but sometimes to prosper i must first suffer, and when i have faith in my suffering such as JOB had, even after all he had was lost, HE STILL DID NOT CURSE GOD! He was blessed for his faith, God's love is independent from the stuff I have or the heath i have, and so is my faith, my faith is not in that i get what i want when i want, it is in God will always be faithful,

Imagine this philosophy in Africa, thousands dieing from aids, then some one tells you no more starving, if you give God a faith offering so you see masses hear this word that the "no more pain and suffering and anything you want with a drop of a coin" So masses of poor people making a few pennies a day,
give all they have and THE PREACHER GETS MONEY FROM THEM!!! This is not the gospel... its sick deception at its core.

Oh please read many translations of Mathew 7 it provides a better meaning for what Jesus meant... I don't think that when Jesus said (Mathew 7:7) that you get whatever you want, when ever you meant... You have to understand translations are already doing some translating for you so please check other scholarly sources and commentaries of Mathew 7:7.

Forgiveness_101
It is when our belief that consumes us to think that our faith has control over the very "WILL" of God.

I believe that we are rewarded based on our level of faith. The more faith you have the more rewards you may recieve. I do not believe that we are rewarded based on "acts" which is what I get from your african penny analogy. All the acting in the world will get you nothing but cursed. In my experience greater levels of faith in the Lord has resulted in greater prosperity in the rest of my life.

I guess that means Jesus's disciples had no faith since they didn't seem to prosper in the worlds wealth. and in fact were killed for thier efforts. What is wrong with this the more faith you have the more prosparity you get doesnt go along with what Jesus taught. what happened to dont store your treasures on earth why have the things of God been narrowed down to cash? abundant life = money honor=money faith=money If you think about it drug dealers swindlers thieves make lots of money, is it becasue of thier faith? true faith is shown when you have nothing and yet have joy in the Lord and trust in Him. When you measure your faith gods warrior by how much prosperity you have, your setting yourself up for a big fall.

I certainly did not mean just financial prosperity nor do I think that financial prosperity will get me into heaven. The more worldly riches I obtain the harder it will be to someday have heavenly riches. I more meant my personal life, my work life, my relationship with God. Not money.

GodsWarrior:

Excuse me, but let's get back on topic.

The subject of this threat is TP.

If you wish to discuss another subject such as about the "Word of Faith" message promoted by prosperity preachers, please start another thread under that heading.

If you wish to participate on this thread the subject to discuss is TP and its leadership.

What is your opinion of TP and its leadership?

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rrmoderator
GodsWarrior:

Excuse me, but let's get back on topic.

The subject of this threat is TP.

If you wish to discuss another subject such as about the "Word of Faith" message promoted by prosperity preachers, please start another thread under that heading.

If you wish to participate on this thread the subject to discuss is TP and its leadership.

What is your opinion of TP and its leadership?

I still attend Turning Point. I love the church, the people and the leadership. I have questions, I am interested in other peoples questions and I am working on getting mine answered.

GodsWarrior:

I am skeptical as to the purpose of you posting here.

I suspect you are here not so much to discuss critical questions about TP, but rather to question those that have criticized TP here.

Frankly, you come across as an apologist.

What do you think TP does wrong?

What critical questions do you have about TP and its leadership?

I certainly did not mean just financial prosperity nor do I think that financial prosperity will get me into heaven. The more worldly riches I obtain the harder it will be to someday have heavenly riches. I more meant my personal life, my work life, my relationship with God. Not money.[/quote]



My focus is what was TPC teaches the WOF movement to be. What you believe is not what TPC teaches. Thank you moderator. For bringing us back on course...The moderator happens to be the apostle of the group,
1. So what are you questions about TPC doctrine?
2. What are you questions about TPC leadership?
3. What can you present that validates TPC doctrine?
so on...

Thank you GW
Forgiveness_101

GW,

I need to apologize. My use of the terms "depraved" and "weak minded" were out of line and not helpful to the discussion. I apologize.

I am thankful that you have taken time to post on this forum and your questions are valid. I would like to encourage you to take time, if you have not done so already, to read through each posting on the RLc and the TPc threads. This will take some time but will give you some insight into the dialogue that has taken place regarding both churches.

I am heading out for the evening but I do plan on responding to your other questions.

Again, I apologize for my poor choice of words.

TPR

I think it is great that God's warrior is posting here and want to welcome you.

Here is something I would like you to consider.


Do you recognize that the word of faith teaching can or has been destructive at other churches? (Maybe not at TP)

If you do then have you heard any pastor at turningpoint church discuss the possible problems that can come out of this teaching?

Some of the prosperity teaching makes sense however it needs to be taught with balance and warnings against getting out of hand with it.

I have found that the basis of the teaching seems to be aimed at controlling God. For example: If I say this verse 10 times every day God will bless me. Or if I give this much then God must bless me. When you look back to all of the idols that Israelites were tempted to worship, all of them were focused around a God they could control. For example sacrificing your child to cause their god to bless the crops. We should recognize that we are not immune to trying to control God.


You should give because you love God. Period. There should be nothing expected in return and when God blesses us it is not the result of us giving but his grace. Also God doest have to heal anyone. He owes us nothing and can choose to heal whoever he wants whenever. In a book about someone with a massive healing ministry there was a story of a non Christian man who walked into the meeting and was missing an eye. As soon as he entered his fake eye fell and was smashed onto the ground and he had a new eye. He didn't become a Christian. God chose to heal this man and didn't put any condition on it to earn that healing or maintain it. it was only by Gods grace.


The biggest issue I have with turning point teaching word of faith is that mike is not accountable to anyone. There is no one who can help show him some of the destructive parts of this teaching. You can see that this is true because they probably are not even aware of how that the word of faith teaching can be taken to an extreme and cause massive hurt to families.


The same problem is also evident in the discipleship teaching. There has never been one sermon discussing the sheparding movement and how discipleship can be taken to an extreme. Even if the pastor doesn't intend these teachings to go to far if they don't intentionally preach to stop it then they are allowing it to happen.



Many pages back M&M summed up the problem in how mike first brought up the word of faith teaching on healing. He taught how that healing and salvation were all bought for us when Christ died and we have access to them immediately and we are in sin if we are not healed. Mike never told anyone before he taught this and no one had the authority to tell him that it is full of crap or require him to at least look into and discuss why people disagree with this teaching to warn people from taking it out of hand.




Also- do you think mike is accountable?

Have they announced that jackie has resigned and no longer attends turningpoint to the congregation?
Should her years of service be recognized? If they left over a minor issues about mikes accountablity (as I was told in a meeting) why wouldn't they have a a service to honor her?

Do you know how the pastors are paid? do they get money for being a pastor, teaching soma, owning a buisness and every time they speak somewhere as others have accused them on this website?

Would you be comfortable asking a pastor these questions and then telling a new attendee the answers?

Also do you think you could expian the accountability system to anyone outside of your church?