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Mville04
As was mention before in this forum, Mike And Cindy had met with Bill Johnson while on sebatical and has invited him to speak at TPC. Bill Johnson is an Apostle anointed under Peter Wagner who began the new Internation Coalition of Apostles movement. Peter Wagner preaches that there exsists a recognized authority for God here on earth. He discribes the authority structure begining with Christ then on to the Apostle, Senior members, etc. The qualifications of being an Apostle includes the size and wealth of the church. That is one of the main qualifiers. Mike has obviously conected with these people and I think he sees himself in this, so called, misistry.

With size and wealth being bench marks for being appointed an apostle one can expect a heavy push to recruit more members to the church (remember: in the Everett Herald article-Mike said he is against recruiting...yeah...ok) and a continued emphasis on giving money to the church. This may explain why TPC changed their tithe practice and started asking people to "come forward to the alter and pray and then place you money in the basket at the front-this tactic creates competition among the members and goes against some of Jesus' basic teachings on giving.

Ultimately what C.Peter Wagner has created is the Christian Church version of the AMWAY multi level marketing plan. And Mike is cashing in. Who can blame him? Really? Whats wrong with wanting to be rich? really now?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 01:25AM by TurningPointReject.

Hello, Braveheart

I would think that they would say that the church plants would all be testimonies to P. Mikes apostlic call.

Hello Turning Point
The Mormon Church has done and excellent job of planting churches, as has the Muslim religion, Jehovah Witnesses, and the list goes on. Are any of the previously mentioned acceptable apostles? by that I mean Joseph Smith, Mohammad, and that Russell fellow.
They were exceptional FALSE apostles.

So planting churches can be a good thing, but it falls far short of qualifying one to be called an apostle which has been pointed out in this blog as a very high calling to be a very humble and low person who does profoundly great things at huge personal cost and sacrifice.

Perhaps Mike and Tony should be more properly called ENTREPRENEURS whose primary craft is personal wealth building, group persuasion, celebrity worship (themselves), and manipulative leadership.

Could someone be so kind as to provide the scripture reference that list the above as qualifications for an apostle?

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Forgiveness_101
Hello, Braveheart

I would think that they would say that the church plants would all be testimonies to P. Mikes apostlic call.

Hi Forgiveness. Good to see you.

Can you tell us a bit about these churches planted by the apostle Mike? How many churches? Where are they located? Average number of people attending each church?What, actually, did Mike do to "plant" these churches? etc.

How is it that Mike is considered the planter if he isnt the one out doing the foot work? He may have helped encourage the teams that are doing the work, but he himself isnt doing any of the heavy lifting. He may have trained and encouraged but he, himself, has only planted ONE church. But this issue is really just a distraction. When Paul started new churches he did the heavy lifting in the actual communities to get the church started then he handed over the reigns to local leaders and left to start a new church in a new location. I don't believe that is what Mike has done.

The concerns really are not so much with Mike being or not being an apostle. Its with the false teachings that Mike engages in and propagates under the guise of Apostle and Prophet. Teachings like "spiritual parenting", "Honoring", "Covenant Relationships", "Word of Faith", and "prosperity" doctrine all are false teachings. These teachings depend on the teacher twisting and re-interpreting biblical texts to contrive a new meaning that couldn't possibly be there in the original context, all for the sake of manipulating, controlling and coercing the hearers to do and give for the sake of building the kingdom of the apostle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 06:38AM by TurningPointReject.

Mike never sat down with Bill Johnson. He only attended church there. Many of Mike's so called connections are far from connection. Mostly a glance from acros the room. If that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 09:07AM by wherefromhere.

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wherefromhere
Mike never sat down with Bill Johnson. He only attended church there. Many of Mike's so called connections are far from connection. Mostly a glance from acros the room. If that.

If I was amiss here I apologize. When Mike sent one of his updates from his sabbatical he indicated that his intent was to invite some people to speak at TPC. One of those was Johnson.
So Mike may not have sat down with Bill Johnson at all and Mike may have just wanted to visit his church and attempt an invite. This may not be considered a "conection" to the Apostalic movement but just a desire to be.

Sorry for the slip.

I don't want to belabor this topic, but I think it is significant, not only to dispel confusion, but also it is related to the ideas of no accountability (these self-proclaimed apostles have no meaningful accountability) and also to the main concern I have of false teaching (since their presumed authority gives them the "right" to always be right about what they teach).

So I'll give one last entry on apostles from a source I had forgotten about--the good old Bible dictionaries (mine at home is a New Unger's Bible Dictionary, which I recommend but it is not online.) This dictionary I found online had the same main information, though Unger's was more complete. Here's what the Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary has under "apostle":

Apostle
A person sent by another; a messenger; envoy. This word is once used as a descriptive designation of Jesus Christ, the Sent of the Father (Heb. 3:1; John 20:21). It is, however, generally used as designating the body of disciples to whom he entrusted the organization of his church and the dissemination of his gospel, "the twelve," as they are called (Matt. 10:1-5; Mark 3:14; 6:7; Luke 6:13; 9:1). We have four lists of the apostles, one by each of the synoptic evangelists (Matt. 10:2-4; Mark 3:16; Luke 6:14), and one in the Acts (1:13). No two of these lists, however, perfectly coincide.

Our Lord gave them the "keys of the kingdom," and by the gift of his Spirit fitted them to be the founders and governors of his church (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-15). To them, as representing his church, he gave the commission to "preach the gospel to every creature" (Matt. 28:18-20). After his ascension he communicated to them, according to his promise, supernatural gifts to qualify them for the discharge of their duties (Acts 2:4; 1 Cor. 2:16; 2:7, 10, 13; 2 Cor. 5:20; 1 Cor. 11:2). Judas Iscariot, one of "the twelve," fell by transgression, and Matthias was substituted in his place (Acts 1:21). Saul of Tarsus was afterwards added to their number (Acts 9:3-20; 20:4; 26:15-18; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:11).

Luke has given some account of Peter, John, and the two Jameses (Acts 12:2, 17; 15:13; 21:18), but beyond this we know nothing from authentic history of the rest of the original twelve. After the martyrdom of James the Greater (Acts 12:2), James the Less usually resided at Jerusalem, while Paul, "the apostle of the uncircumcision," usually travelled as a missionary among the Gentiles (Gal. 2:8). It was characteristic of the apostles and necessary (1) that they should have seen the Lord, and been able to testify of him and of his resurrection from personal knowledge (John 15:27; Acts 1:21, 22; 1 Cor. 9:1; Acts 22:14, 15). (2.) They must have been immediately called to that office by Christ (Luke 6:13; Gal. 1:1). (3.) It was essential that they should be infallibly inspired, and thus secured against all error and mistake in their public teaching, whether by word or by writing (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Thess. 2:13).

(4.) Another qualification was the power of working miracles (Mark 16:20; Acts 2:43; 1 Cor. 12:8-11). The apostles therefore could have had no successors. They are the only authoritative teachers of the Christian doctrines. The office of an apostle ceased with its first holders.

In 2 Cor. 8:23 and Phil. 2:25 the word "messenger" is the rendering of the same Greek word, elsewhere rendered "apostle."

[I added the bold for the qualifications of an apostle. Read any mainline Bible dictionary and you will find agreement on this. What is happening in the NAR is apostasy--departing from the truth.]

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LearningPoint
What is happening in the NAR is apostasy--departing from the truth.]

I used the word "apostasy" when "heresy" might be more accurate, but I find that what I mean is something of both.

Thank you Learningpoint!! That is so right on!

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TurningPointReject

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Forgiveness_101
Hello, Braveheart

I would think that they would say that the church plants would all be testimonies to P. Mikes apostlic call.

Hi Forgiveness. Good to see you.

Can you tell us a bit about these churches planted by the apostle Mike? How many churches? Where are they located? Average number of people attending each church?What, actually, did Mike do to "plant" these churches? etc.

How is it that Mike is considered the planter if he isnt the one out doing the foot work? He may have helped encourage the teams that are doing the work, but he himself isnt doing any of the heavy lifting. He may have trained and encouraged but he, himself, has only planted ONE church. But this issue is really just a distraction. When Paul started new churches he did the heavy lifting in the actual communities to get the church started then he handed over the reigns to local leaders and left to start a new church in a new location. I don't believe that is what Mike has done.

The concerns really are not so much with Mike being or not being an apostle. Its with the false teachings that Mike engages in and propagates under the guise of Apostle and Prophet. Teachings like "spiritual parenting", "Honoring", "Covenant Relationships", "Word of Faith", and "prosperity" doctrine all are false teachings. These teachings depend on the teacher twisting and re-interpreting biblical texts to contrive a new meaning that couldn't possibly be there in the original context, all for the sake of manipulating, controlling and coercing the hearers to do and give for the sake of building the kingdom of the apostle.

I believe this is a good point, i don't think i can answer the question.