I have a random question. Its a bit off topic so I apologize in advance.
My question is this:

If you say your sermon, message, teaching, prophesy, word, etc comes "from God" or was "inspired by the Holy Spirit" then to whom does that message belong? Who owns that message? The messenger or the one who gave the message to the speaker (i.e. God or the Holy Spirit)?

If the message comes from God or is inspired by the Holy Spirit, what right does mere man have to "package" that teaching, message, sermon, prophesy, etc and SELL it? If it is his/her own personal message then, yes, by all means, package it and sell it for a profit. But if the message comes from God or the Holy Spirit through you to His people do you really have a right to profit off of God? Are you, in fact, robbing God, when you sell His message?

If it is your own thinking and teaching then have the integrity to say that up front. Do not dress it up and call it, "a message from God" or "a teaching inspired by Holy Spirit" and turn around and charge me to hear "God's" message.

Okay, again, random. And off topic.

Quote
TurningPointReject
I have a random question. Its a bit off topic so I apologize in advance.
My question is this:

If you say your sermon, message, teaching, prophesy, word, etc comes "from God" or was "inspired by the Holy Spirit" then to whom does that message belong? Who owns that message? The messenger or the one who gave the message to the speaker (i.e. God or the Holy Spirit)?

If the message comes from God or is inspired by the Holy Spirit, what right does mere man have to "package" that teaching, message, sermon, prophesy, etc and SELL it? If it is his/her own personal message then, yes, by all means, package it and sell it for a profit. But if the message comes from God or the Holy Spirit through you to His people do you really have a right to profit off of God? Are you, in fact, robbing God, when you sell His message?

If it is your own thinking and teaching then have the integrity to say that up front. Do not dress it up and call it, "a message from God" or "a teaching inspired by Holy Spirit" and turn around and charge me to hear "God's" message.

Okay, again, random. And off topic.

exactly tprj selling Gods word its like pimping Him for personal profit. What God did for us for free because He loved us now costs us ,either our money or our labor. I guess its capitolism at its best. Man are people gonna be surprised when they get to the throne room. there are no more prophets, only lots of profits.

For churches being "non profit".. there sure seems to be a lot of profit going around.

So what is the difference between peddling the gospel and being a minister of the gospel who draws a wage or salary?

"A workman is worthy of his hire," scripture says. So let's find the balanced perspective on this one. I have known many pastors and teachers who did not peddle the gospel but were paid a (barely) living wage to commit their time and energy to tending and training the flock. They did not take advantage, in fact they gave way more than they ever took. But the breed of "minister" today seems to think he needs to get rich off of what he/she does.

I personally write Bible materials on a contract basis for different publishers. I'm a professional writer, and I need to eat and pay my bills like everyone else. I cannot think of anything I'd rather propogate than God's Word. I don't get rich, but I do get paid. I believe in my conscience that I am not pimping the Word, but Paul also said that it is the Lord who will judge Him; even if his conscience was clear, it didn't mean he was faultless. So not to defend myself, but to put something very personal and real out there, not theoretical.

Again, I don't want a defense of myself or of anyone else. I want a defense of the truth as we consider these things carefully. So, people of God, how do we make the distinction between ministering as a workman, worthy of his/her hire, and peddling the word for profit?

What do you say?

Good point LP. I think it is a matter of what is in a man's heart. It is a matter of intent.
Look as his reasoning and you will see what the intent is. Is it rightious? Does he collect princely sums to turn and give to those in need or does he throw currency into only what he desires?

1 Timothy 5:18 (Amplified Bible) For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire.

There is a difference between pimping God's word and doing God's work to get his message in written form into the hands of the people he wants to reach. So LearningPoint, I do believe this passage was intended for you. I do not believe it is intended for the person who makes triple the average wage in the area he pastors in. I do not believe it is for the person who would call away people from helping the widow of a deceased Deacon to build the pastor a deck. I do not believe it is for a pastor who will not go to minister to the sick and dieing in the hospital. There is a difference between making a living and making an obscenely huge salary when the rule of thumb for a pastor's salary is the average wage of the jurisdiction in which the church is located. There is a difference in living a do as I say not as I do life. That is ask others to forgoe vacations and give the money to the church and then take your family to Disneyland.

But Jesus will judge each of us and hour hearts and we just need to let this alone. It serves no purpose at this point but to inflame. Unless that is what you want to do. So lets agree that we disagree with the pastoral staff and elders at TPC about just about every issue there is to disagree on and move on with healing hurts and redeeming the reputation of the Bride which TPC has slandered so badly.


D of D

I do not trust people who make tons of money selling God's Word. I mean, yes, people who work in the ministry, whether it is propogating God's Word, or a pastor in a church, need a liveable wage. It is when they get rich that trouble arises. It is when they begin to amass things of the world and storehouses of stuff. The trouble is self. Once self enters into ministry, the ministry is affected. I like a pastor who makes a good liveable wage to take care of his family (or her) and a church who cares for their leaders. I do not think it healthy for ministry folks to make tons of money. I look at The Center. Christian organization with CEO's that make 6 diget salarires and counseling services that cost so much money only the rich can afford it. How is this a ministry? It's not, it is a business. These mega churches are out of control. I hope my church stays medium and does not attract great numbers, but doubles in ministry to the poor, homeless, disinfranchised and orphans. This is what we are to do. This is true religion.

False apostle Mike Villamor and company are to busy to look after and take care of widows and orphans.They are to busy going to the next prosperity conference and wondering which false prosperity teacher will come teach at TPCWOC!They have money to spend on there New TPCWOC web site that will be launching on Nov.15th.They claim they will be entering a higher level of attraction. The whole world will be able to listen and I imagine watch false apostle Mike Villamor preach.Mike is into self promoting himself.He wants to be famous and rich. And he will use anybody to achieve his goal.Mike is a not a pastor ,because a pastor looks after the flock and protects it.Mike is a prideful man who believes he is a gifted speaker and thinks TPCWOC is the closes thing to the new testament church.Mike believes he walks in the same shoes of the apostles of the new testament.Mike has turned TPCWOC into a business and he is using people to gain his wealth. The people still traped at TPCWOC are under a spell by Mike,he is playing the victim of persecution and the people have believed him.They have also believed the lie of the prosperity gospel and many who don't have much are giving Mike the little money they have hoping they we be blessed like Mike has been.This is a false hope.Put your hope in Christ alone! Mike is praying to a different Jesus and a different spirit. Did God tell Mike to invite false apostle Tony Cunningham, false prosperity teachers,Dr.Increase,Casey Treat and Dr. Favor to TPCWOC.Mike claims to be a expert on prayer.Is Mike praying to the rich Jesus who wears designer clothes and had money flowing in and out of his pockets.Is that why Jesus had a person in charge of the money.Mike claims that the wealth you give him will be used to bless others. Kind of like a pyramid scheme,the people at the top get all the money and the people at the bottom might get to have dinner with Mike or have coffee with him.They put there false hope into making it to the top of the pyramid by worshiping Mike and giving Mike more of there time,talent and treasure.Mike then will get you to spend your money at his fake bible college while giving you some more false hope of maybe making it to the top of the pyramid.In Mikes little world its all about prosperity.The more prosperity you have the more Godly wisdom you have in Mikes eyes.

I am not against Christian workers being paid a wage. I am not even against Christian Workers being paid high wages. I am saddened when the focus becomes on making money. When money becomes the central focus then Jesus is out of focus.

I think one man who really had a heart for God found a very good balance when it came to ministry and money. Keith Green. He gave his records and materials away to anyone who wanted them. If you could afford to give money to the ministry to help cover the cost, great. But if you couldn't afford it he didn't believe it was his to keep from giving away. Money wasn't his focus. Prosperity wasn't his focus. Ministry and Jesus were his focus. By taking the focus off of how much money needed to be made and placing the focus on how much ministry could be accomplished he was able to reach those who would not have other wise been reached. And...God took care of his needs. He refused to bow down at the Altar of Baal when others in the Christian Industry were making lots of money. And his courage of conviction made all the difference. I do not believe God calls us all to the same methodology, necessarily, but He does call us to the same Heart.

There are many today who are hawkin God and Prosperity like the corner used car salesman. And they are getting rich along the way. One unseen result, however, are those who are lost to an eternity in hell because they could not "afford" the cost of the "ministry". No where in the Gospels do we see Jesus charging followers to hear his teaching. In fact, we see on one occasion several thousand came to listen to him teach. His disciples became concerned because the crowd was getting hungry. They wanted Jesus to send them away. But what does Jesus do? He tells his disciples to feed the people. Miraculously 5000 thousand were fed that day...and not a penny was charged.

The love of money seems to be the distinction between ministering as a workman, worthy of his/her hire, and peddling the word for profit. So the what are the marks of one who is a "lover of money"? I wonder if scripture sheds light on this...

Does the irony of the following tweet strike anyone:

MikeVillamor
RT @robcizek: "Leadership is like a teabag - you only know how good it is when it’s in hot water" - David Fairhurst RT @ValentinaBailey