Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Mville04
()
Date: March 27, 2009 02:02PM
Whatajoke, thank you for understanding. I must say that something D of D said was understandible in that I had placed images of Jesus with firarms in the video. I want people to understand that this was a statement as to how Cyndi is treating a covenant, not because of my personal views but her view as how she treats the church. She created that vision for me and I expressed it in her behalf.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Painfuljourney
()
Date: March 27, 2009 11:44PM
In keeping things on subject -
IS YOUR CHURCH A SAFE PLACE?
Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?
*
Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?
*
Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?
*
Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?
*
Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?
*
Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?
*
Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?
*
Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?
*
Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?
*
Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?
*
Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?
*
Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?
If you can answer yes to many of these questions, your church may well be a full blown authoritarian cult.
These are the tell tale signs of the Spiritual Abuse typical of cults.
IS YOUR CHURCH A SAFE PLACE?
Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?
*
Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?
*
Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?
*
Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?
*
Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?
*
Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?
*
Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?
*
Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?
*
Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?
*
Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?
*
Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?
*
Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?
If you can answer yes to many of these questions, your church may well be a full blown authoritarian cult.
These are the tell tale signs of the Spiritual Abuse typical of cults.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
outreach
()
Date: March 28, 2009 01:43AM
Just a suggestion: Maybe we should be keeping some of these posts on private messages instead. It comes across to me like some bashing and insulting each other.
Thanks
Outreach
Thanks
Outreach
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
buddy
()
Date: March 28, 2009 02:39AM
I have to make a negative confession , I feel terrible, I confess I have a nasty cold, I am sorry that my faith was not strong enough, I spoke my memory bible verse over and over again and I guess my faith is not good enough! I am sorry of that sin that caused my cold, it was probably satan that caused it ,or maybe God was paying me back for my last post! I have been real confused lately! I think I need to listen more to Pastor Mike and Cyndi to protect me from this cold virus! I believe Pastor Mike believes it is Gods will for everybody to be Healed! I must be out of Gods Will! I think I will take my nightQuil and go to bed!
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Painfuljourney
()
Date: March 28, 2009 03:34AM
Quote
outreach
Just a suggestion: Maybe we should be keeping some of these posts on private messages instead. It comes across to me like some bashing and insulting each other.
Thanks
Outreach
Agreed. I apologize.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Painfuljourney
()
Date: March 28, 2009 03:54AM
Here is some more great information I have been finding.... wanted to share.
It can be difficult for an outsider to know whether a particular group is a cult.
Although there are some pointers and external indicators, it really takes an insider's perspective to know what goes on inside a particular group.
Abuses occur when powerful techniques are used without proper checks and balances. In theory, it is possible for a cult to be entirely beneficent, but because of human nature and the non-accountability of cult leaders, such cults are comparatively rare.
Most cults sooner or later are revealed to have fallen prey to some degree to their leadership's desires for adulation, money, power, or sex.
A cult will tend to deny and cover up any abuses by its leadership, and details may only emerge years later.
In general, cults have a hierarchical or pyramid type of structure. At the lowest level, members are part-timers who are only partially committed to the group and who are only lightly brainwashed. All the cult leadership really requires of this level is that members should speak well of the group and be generally positive. Members at this level have little power or influence, and are unlikely to be aware of the full range of the cult's teachings, knowledge of which is restricted to a trusted inner circle of committed, full-time members.
Members at a part-time level of commitment are less likely to be manipulated or abused to any significant extent, because achieving strong influence over a person really requires that they be exposed to a mind control environment on a more full-time basis.
A person involved at a more superficial level may find it genuinely difficult to believe what goes on in some of the more committed levels of membership.
Members who have not been specially targeted, and who have enjoyed the warmth and friendship of the group without having been exposed to its darker side, will tend to think well of the group, and may be puzzled by criticisms of it.
These positive and supportive members can be used as a public relations shield, to counter any allegations against the group, and to reassure new members.
Cult Technics
1. Mind Control
Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.
2. Mystical Manipulation
Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People misattribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.
3. Loading the Language
Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white - "thought-terminating cliches." Non-members cannot simply understand what believers are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.
4. Doctrine Over Person
No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.
5. Sacred Science
The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.
6. The Cult of Confession
The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.
7. The Demand for Purity
The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. People are reprimanded or learn to reprimand themselves for not living up to the group's ideals.
8. The Dispensing of Existence
The group decides who has a right to exist and who does not. There is no other legitimate alternative to the group.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2009 03:58AM by Painfuljourney.
It can be difficult for an outsider to know whether a particular group is a cult.
Although there are some pointers and external indicators, it really takes an insider's perspective to know what goes on inside a particular group.
Abuses occur when powerful techniques are used without proper checks and balances. In theory, it is possible for a cult to be entirely beneficent, but because of human nature and the non-accountability of cult leaders, such cults are comparatively rare.
Most cults sooner or later are revealed to have fallen prey to some degree to their leadership's desires for adulation, money, power, or sex.
A cult will tend to deny and cover up any abuses by its leadership, and details may only emerge years later.
In general, cults have a hierarchical or pyramid type of structure. At the lowest level, members are part-timers who are only partially committed to the group and who are only lightly brainwashed. All the cult leadership really requires of this level is that members should speak well of the group and be generally positive. Members at this level have little power or influence, and are unlikely to be aware of the full range of the cult's teachings, knowledge of which is restricted to a trusted inner circle of committed, full-time members.
Members at a part-time level of commitment are less likely to be manipulated or abused to any significant extent, because achieving strong influence over a person really requires that they be exposed to a mind control environment on a more full-time basis.
A person involved at a more superficial level may find it genuinely difficult to believe what goes on in some of the more committed levels of membership.
Members who have not been specially targeted, and who have enjoyed the warmth and friendship of the group without having been exposed to its darker side, will tend to think well of the group, and may be puzzled by criticisms of it.
These positive and supportive members can be used as a public relations shield, to counter any allegations against the group, and to reassure new members.
Cult Technics
1. Mind Control
Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.
2. Mystical Manipulation
Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People misattribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.
3. Loading the Language
Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white - "thought-terminating cliches." Non-members cannot simply understand what believers are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.
4. Doctrine Over Person
No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.
5. Sacred Science
The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.
6. The Cult of Confession
The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.
7. The Demand for Purity
The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. People are reprimanded or learn to reprimand themselves for not living up to the group's ideals.
8. The Dispensing of Existence
The group decides who has a right to exist and who does not. There is no other legitimate alternative to the group.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2009 03:58AM by Painfuljourney.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: March 28, 2009 06:22AM
Painful Journey,
Thank you for the information. Both of your informative posts are helpful. I would like to know if you would be willing to go through your first informative post (Is Your Church a Safe Place) and give personal examples of your TPc experience for each point.
I hope you would consider doing this.
Thanks
Thank you for the information. Both of your informative posts are helpful. I would like to know if you would be willing to go through your first informative post (Is Your Church a Safe Place) and give personal examples of your TPc experience for each point.
I hope you would consider doing this.
Thanks
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
tell the truth
()
Date: March 28, 2009 11:15AM
Quote
AvenPhoenix
There is no line to cross, Daughter of Dorcas, for several reasons. Not only is there the first amendment with directly protects me, but Mike is a public figure, opening him up to even more scrutiny, and I put satire at the top of everyone of my videos. And even then, if all that magically goes away my video would just be taken down by YouTube and that would end any potential issues. I wouldn't even need a lawyer or have to spend a dime on the defense in even the worst case senerio because the issue would be laughed out of court. And if not I'd easily win and the cost would not go to me anyways. But you have the right to fantasize about us getting in legal trouble all you like.
As for Father in Heaven, well, I believe that if there is a God, and if he is worth worshipping, he he'd be a good God. And I cannot imagine a God who who severly punishing me for fighting against the progressions of a cult.
If you believe in a God who would punish me for practicing my natural rights, then your God sounds like a terrible God and I would want nothing to do with him anyways, let alone worship him. Fortunatly you cannot speak on behalf, so I have nothing to be afraid of when you try to aver that he's angry at me for doing something you don't personally like. I adise you think more carefully before you try to speak on behalf of God again. I also cannot speak for God but I can say that any just God certainly wouldn't apreciate someone throwing around his name in a method to indirectly threaten someone. I will not stop making videos or exercising my right to free speach just because Daughter of Dorcas says her God will severly punish me for it. That's shamelessly absurd, and I would hate for people to mistake that as what your Christianity is all about.
Furthermore, you stated I am taking away any chance that you might have in getting TPC leadership to take you seriously to get a forum. Do you have any reasoning behind that, or is that just another attempt at demean me? Why would Mike associate my videos with you, or any of you?
Here's the bottom line, Mike is not a man of love and he does not care about opening a forum with you and embracing you with loving arms. And he never will. He is a man of secret memos, silencing, fundraising and recruitment, authoritarian ranks, and power. You can hear it in his voice. You can see it in his eyes. He's working for toward a full blown cult. And this is knowable by looking at his past with Tony Cunningham, who I was told took 50,000 american dollars to start an orphanage and bought his son a porche. His daughter, nothing. Tony doesn't like women munch and allegedly doesn't let his wife speak in public. BUT Mike refers to Tony as his spirtual authority. Sound like he's ready for an open forum of love to you?
Finally, you said "very Christian founding fathers."
You know your historically wrong, right?
There are LETTERS between Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin making fun of Christianity. Franklin even called it unintelletual in his autobiography. WHo told you they were Christians? Because they lied.
The founding fathers were primarily deists, which is closer to atheism than it is anything else. Others, like Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense," was directly an atheist.
Those are historical facts.
I have to say that the satires and parodies have been a source of humor for me. While they tend to be a bit over the top, there are enough granules of truth that it provides a type of releif like, "I'm not crazy" after leaving turning point. I think that these videos get to the core of what is happening in this church.
Aven, I think you are a very talented young man and I hope you do find Jesus Christ and have a personal experience with him. I feel that you have captured some of the hurt people feel from this forum and provided an outlet for those who have a satrical sense of humor. I believe that God has brought you to this place for a reason and I would that you be accepted here and allowed to speak your heart and mind. I believe you have captured the wickedness of what a cult can do to people and the self seeking purposes these leaders typically possess while bringing a church body straight into hell. The people at TP worship Mike and Cyndi and other leaders. It is wrong and anti-Christ.
I hope that we on this forum can provide you acceptance and communicate to you that some of us do appreciate you and your humor and the creativeness you have is pretty amazing. When this is all over, hopefully soon, or maybe never, I hope you can put your talents to a better use because I think God could have very good things in store for you. I think that cultish church's dam all Christians in the eyes of non-believers. I used to hate all Christians. What a bunch of hypicritical idiots. Mike and Cyndi case and point. However, I learned much later in life that people spoil Christianity and disabuse it. So, I learned not to put my faith in people because they always disappoint, myself included. Instead, my eyes must soley be upon what he did for me and continues to do in my life.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Painfuljourney
()
Date: March 29, 2009 12:37AM
IS YOUR CHURCH A SAFE PLACE?
Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks? Yes, asking people to not read this post is an example. Telling people of the church not to talk to the press is another. Telling deacons and elders not to talk about Tony Cunningham. Not telling people Pastor Jackie and one of the deacons have left is another example. The list could go on and on.
Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers? Yes, Almost every sermon I have heard has something known as by cults as "double speech". This is where a message has two meanings. Usually a pastor will give a sermon seemingly general to the casual observer. Yet, those on the inner circle know that it is a message spoken about someone or a group of people at Turning Point. You have to have insider information to catch this, but it is frequent and is usually used as a correction to one or more people in the church.
Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry? It sounds like it from reading this board that Pastor Mike will not meet with people.
Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation? Yes
Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions? I would say so.
Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"? Yes. Pastor Cyndi's sermon last week instructing people to turn their back on opposition is an example.
Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God? Yes
Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult? Clearly. The newspaper is a pretty good indicator. So is this blog, along with the numerous cult Youtube videos.
Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned? Yes. They think the church is in a war against good and evil. They do not consider any of this a consequence of anything they have done. It seems strange that churches of thousands are not under the same opposition. Why is tpc the only church with cult videos, on a a cult blog and with newspapers alerting the society to their behavior. I know, I know....tpc is just on the verge of greatness......
Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests? Yes, elders and deacons could walk, countless families could leave and leadership still will not question the ideology behind what they are doing. They only want mindless followers behind them and people who will reaffirm their "vision". (Usually younger people because they are the most easily swayed) We are in a dangerous place when we will not listen to the counsel of others, no matter who they are.
Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion? Yes, "stop blocking words/phrases" are typical of cults. They are used to stop expressing opinion, to stop you from thinking, and as a way to correct and align you with the group. Stop blocking words include: critical spirit, legalistic, rebellious, fearful, religious, etc. Again the pulpit will use "double speak" that will bring you into correction if you are "off". Lastly, ignoring and shunning is constantly used as a way for bring correction. There is a verse in I believe Titus they use. It says to shun a brother in love. I have had this done more times than I can count and most of the time I never know what for. Only later will it hit me - Oh, I didn't help out when they asked or I didn't call someone they told me to.
Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances? Yes. I think most people on this board or reading it can relate to what one another are saying. We don't have 50 different stories. Instead, we have much of the same circumstance. As I read online about cults, I am finding that not only do we have the same story with each other, but other ex-cult members or those under strict authoritarian abuse all experience much of the same thing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 12:39AM by Painfuljourney.
Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks? Yes, asking people to not read this post is an example. Telling people of the church not to talk to the press is another. Telling deacons and elders not to talk about Tony Cunningham. Not telling people Pastor Jackie and one of the deacons have left is another example. The list could go on and on.
Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers? Yes, Almost every sermon I have heard has something known as by cults as "double speech". This is where a message has two meanings. Usually a pastor will give a sermon seemingly general to the casual observer. Yet, those on the inner circle know that it is a message spoken about someone or a group of people at Turning Point. You have to have insider information to catch this, but it is frequent and is usually used as a correction to one or more people in the church.
Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry? It sounds like it from reading this board that Pastor Mike will not meet with people.
Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation? Yes
Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions? I would say so.
Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"? Yes. Pastor Cyndi's sermon last week instructing people to turn their back on opposition is an example.
Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God? Yes
Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult? Clearly. The newspaper is a pretty good indicator. So is this blog, along with the numerous cult Youtube videos.
Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned? Yes. They think the church is in a war against good and evil. They do not consider any of this a consequence of anything they have done. It seems strange that churches of thousands are not under the same opposition. Why is tpc the only church with cult videos, on a a cult blog and with newspapers alerting the society to their behavior. I know, I know....tpc is just on the verge of greatness......
Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests? Yes, elders and deacons could walk, countless families could leave and leadership still will not question the ideology behind what they are doing. They only want mindless followers behind them and people who will reaffirm their "vision". (Usually younger people because they are the most easily swayed) We are in a dangerous place when we will not listen to the counsel of others, no matter who they are.
Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion? Yes, "stop blocking words/phrases" are typical of cults. They are used to stop expressing opinion, to stop you from thinking, and as a way to correct and align you with the group. Stop blocking words include: critical spirit, legalistic, rebellious, fearful, religious, etc. Again the pulpit will use "double speak" that will bring you into correction if you are "off". Lastly, ignoring and shunning is constantly used as a way for bring correction. There is a verse in I believe Titus they use. It says to shun a brother in love. I have had this done more times than I can count and most of the time I never know what for. Only later will it hit me - Oh, I didn't help out when they asked or I didn't call someone they told me to.
Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances? Yes. I think most people on this board or reading it can relate to what one another are saying. We don't have 50 different stories. Instead, we have much of the same circumstance. As I read online about cults, I am finding that not only do we have the same story with each other, but other ex-cult members or those under strict authoritarian abuse all experience much of the same thing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 12:39AM by Painfuljourney.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
buddy
()
Date: March 29, 2009 07:31AM
Chapter 1 : My story : I heard of TP when it was at Marshall grade school, we drove past there sign they put out because we live close by and heard from a friend that the music was really loud,so we never went!I would run into people now and then that attended there and found them different! Then one day some TP members wanted to buy our neighbors house and I talked to them about their church and in my gut feeling came away thinking it was one of those churches, where everything goes and where there is no control of the goofyness! I had already confronted one youth pastor in the area and was afraid Tp was the same kind of church where people would be slayed in the spirit and roll around and oink like pigs and many other so called manifestations from God! I seen it all and was afraid TP was the same kind of church! So I stayed away, untill we experienced abuse from a large church in Everett, and it was a real hurtfull experience where there was a power struggle and it effected us because we where committed to teaching at this church and it was a real blessing serving the Lord and all of a sudden come to a halt because of a power stuggle between a Pastor and the Elders and other leaders! Many good people where hurt! The Church used cultic tactics to try and control the truth getting out and sent spys out to gather information and destroy the pastor and there family! We left the church and started to visit churches in Marysville that where closer to home and we visited about half a dozen churches looking for a good youth group for my son. I was at a certain store returning something in Spiritual nature when the clerk told me how wonderfull TP was and we should come and visit, so we did! To be cont! Chapter 2 : Are first visit!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 07:34AM by buddy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 07:34AM by buddy.
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