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Forgiveness_101

Like anyone who has a problem learning, CONFUSION is not of Satan... Although it can be.... It can not and should not be a blanketed statement that covers everything. The problem with doing this makes every person who has one second of confusion in their life feel guilty or shameful for natural responses to learning or something not presented clearly!

Thank you for your Time
FORGIVENESS _KCF

I just want to bring attention to one thing that you said. "feel guilty or shameful for natural responses to learning or something not presented clearly!"

The problem here is that things are not being presented clearly. There are secrets and lies and half truths (more lies). THAT is where the confusion is coming from. That responsibility lies with the leadership at TP, and them alone. It's not the fault of those asking questions, or who are confused. It's not the fault of those who are speaking the truth.

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Brokenhearted

I just want to bring attention to one thing that you said. "feel guilty or shameful for natural responses to learning or something not presented clearly!"

The problem here is that things are not being presented clearly. There are secrets and lies and half truths (more lies). THAT is where the confusion is coming from. That responsibility lies with the leadership at TP, and them alone. It's not the fault of those asking questions, or who are confused. It's not the fault of those who are speaking the truth.

Obviously there must be confusion reigning at TPc. How else do you explain the most recent message from the prophetess? So what does the Bible say about why confusion exists (in this case, at TPc)? If confusion exists at TPc there is a real reason for that confusion. Confusion is an effect. What is the cause?


Lets look at the very scripture the prophetess quotes toward the end of her message from Sunday March 21, 2009: James 3:13-18

James 3:13-18 (New King James Version)

Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

When you envy Casey Treat , John Bevere, Bill Johnson, Todd Bently, and what they have (their crowds and their wealth); when you are self-seeking and seek the place and gifts of honor, when you have SOMA students mowing your lawn, washing your laundry, cleaning your home, constructing your deck, washing your car-the scripture is very clear-confusion reigns and evil makes it home in that place.

Is the wisdom taught by Mike and Cyndi "pure"? Or are there impure motives behind their teaching?
Is the wisdom of Mike and Cyndi peaceable (is it free from argumentation and hostility-listen to the last few messages from Cyndi and Mike)?
Is the wisdom of Mike and Cyndi gentle (kind, soft, honorable, mild or is it mean spirited, angry, harsh)?
Is the wisdom of Mike and Cyndi willing to yield (are they-the leaders- accountable, transparent, approachable)?
Is the wisdom of Mike and Cyndi full of mercy (kindness or good will towards the miserable and the afflicted, joined with a desire to help them-those who have questions and concerns-have you experienced kindness and goodwill, a desire to help you)?

Is Mike and Cyndi's wisdom full of good fruits (deeds, acts or do their deeds and acts come with strings attached)?
Is Mike and Cyndi's wisdom without partiality (without dubiousness, ambiguity or uncertainty-is there ambiguity in their teaching)?
Is Mike and Cyndi's wisdom free of hypocrisy (do as we say-not as we do)?

Is Mike and Cyndi's wisdom heavenly or is it ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2009 02:15AM by TurningPointReject.

I have heard teachings that Terah, Abraham's father, was offered the same deal from God as the one he made to Abraham. Unfortunately for Terah, he didn't take God up on the offer. When God told Abraham to packup and move to a land that he would show him, Abraham went. So I found this answer to women Pastors, and I agree it is the best I ever heard.

Does the Bible speak of women pastors?

Answer:

From another question I answered on the site…Is there anywhere in the bible where it says it is ok for women to be pastors. In 1 Timothy 2:12 it says that women are NOT to teach to have authority over men: to what degree does this allow women to stand before the church and teach the Word?

Answer:

This is a very hard one to defend since a lot is the context in which you determine different scriptures. Many believe that in Paul’s writings there was much disruption taking place in the early church over women finding a new found freedom in Christ and using it to challenge many things they found offensive in a male dominated society. In this context, some of his instruction to women might be understood differently than if he was talking in a very general sense.

The best answer I ever heard regarding this subject was from the great evangelist Kathryn Kuhlman. She was publicly confronted on this issue and both criticized and condemned for taking a very active and out front role in her evangelistic work as a female pastor. Of course, anyone knowing of Kathryn Kuhlman could attest the tremendous anointing she had in both healing ministry and seeing souls won for Christ.

Rather than confront her male critic head on or debate scripture, she simply said, “You are probably right, God most likely called a man to fill this position. For whatever reason, this person refused so God saw fit to use the “least of us” for His glory and called upon me!” The man quietly sat down :)

Unfortunately, I closed the window before getting the website pasted in. I've looked and cannot find it again. So if anyone runs into the above exact question and answer you will know where I got it. I wanted to give credit for the enlightened answer.


I am not defending any one female pastor, but what I do know is you cannot take bits and pieces of history out of historical context and ask it to make sense. You must look at the person, the happenings of that time, and cultural norms. Mark Twain's writings have been criticized for being racist in the latter part of the last century. I do not know if Samuel Clemens was a racist, but if you look at the time and cultural norms of the time in which he lived in our history you get to see how people thought in the context of that time.

The same can be said for women pastors. There are those who said the same thing to Joyce Meyer. I have heard her speak on the subject more than once. My thought was, boy an I glad they were wrong.


My point, God uses who he wants to use for his Glory. I think the stories of Esther, Ruth, and Rebecca speak to that question quite well.

Daughter of Dorcas



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2009 05:09AM by Daughter of Dorcas.

D of D,

Is it possible you meant to post your "women as pastors" comment on a different thread? I have looked back over at least 20 pages on this thread and could not find anyone asking about women pastors. Or perhaps I just overlooked the comment. Help us out here by quote the comment that you are commenting on.

Thank you,

TPR

My previous post was in reaction to your TurningPointReject post on Page 74 which contained "So. We see that God is not the author of confusion. Instead confusion occurs in the church, according to Paul, when, among other things, women are permitted to speak in church. So then I must ask, according to God's Word, is Cyndi causing confusion? Is the TPc structure and belief system and its practices leading to confusion?"

While I may not agree with every practice or philosophy held at TPC, I stand firm in my belief that our Father God in Heaven uses who he wants to use for his Glory and to communicate to his children. That includes WOMEN! Yes, I posted to the correct forum topic.

My point is that you cannot call Pastor Cindy out without affecting all other women pastors who are about the Father's work in this world. Or more precisely you cannot call her out using the particular scripture that you and the article both used.

I am not meaning to offend or criticize you, I was merely trying to point out that in this case applying that scripture does apply. If all the historical events surrounding Paul's remark were happening here and now that would be a different matter. Somewhere along the line God decided to use women to do his work either because that is who he chose to use or he asked a man and that man did not heed the call. God uses who he wants to use and in many instances in history and now he uses women to preach his word. He will get his message out and if that takes a woman then a woman it will be.

Daughter of Dorcas

D of D, Thank you. Now my next question is, Have you listened to the message I refer to in my posting? And, No, I am not offended and do not take your comments as criticism.

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TurningPointReject
D of D, Thank you. Now my next question is, Have you listened to the message I refer to in my posting? And, No, I am not offended and do not take your comments as criticism.

Yes, I listened to her sermon today, before I posted my response, and the way that I interpreted what I heard had her speaking about our nations economic wows and the fear of loosing jobs. I also interpreted her to be talking about the problems being caused by the enemy and that confusion and fear about loosing jobs, money, and homes was an attack by the enemy on all of us. While Pastor Mike might take potshots at people who have posted on this website, sorry I just didn't hear Pastor Cindy doing that.

If the Elders are privately telling TPC members who are on the verge of leaving that they will not address what is posted here and will not meet with former members who are questioning their leadership or the direction that Pastor Mike is intending to lead the church, then I cannot see Pastor Cindy taking a swing and any of us. Nor did I hear it in last Sunday's sermon.

Do not get me wrong there are a lot of things that are wrong with TPC that need to be changed, however I think the leadership will let the TPC fall a lot further before it listens to those who wish to confront them in love and help them find their way back to the TPC that was so full of promise not so long ago. Leadership is a problem, selfish ambition is a problem, outside influences are a problem, and failure to listen to wise counsel is a problem. Hopefully Pastor Mike and his inner circle will figure this out before it is to late.

Daughter of Dorcas



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2009 08:23AM by Daughter of Dorcas.

Thanks, D of D. I, too, listened to her message. And quite honestly she did not do a good job at setting her message in a clear context. Is she talking about the forum (personally, I still don't think Mike, Cyndi, or the Elders read this forum)? Is she talking about, as you suggest, our current economic setting? Is she reacting to the recent run of press coverage and no doubt phone calls related to their church? She starts off talking about warriors ready for the battle-"God has called us in this day and in this season to be warriors"- but never identifies what the battle is they are facing. The context was not very clear.

I wasn't inferring that she was attacking the forum.
My post was addressing her practice of proof texting.
I asked if you had listened to her message because I would enjoy hearing your thoughts: did you hear much proof texting?
Do you believe that she took some texts out of context?

As I stated in my PM to you, my issue is not with a woman speaking in the church-that is not relevant. My question is does Cyndi's methodology lead to confusion in the way she divides the Word of God? And does TPc's practices, structures, and leadership style lead to confusion? The fact that one of the scriptures she takes out of context (God is not the author of confusion) continues with the instruction for women to be quiet in the church was ironic.

Why is proof texting even an issue? I believe it is an issue because this is how false doctrine and false teaching come about. Perhaps this was how the practice of "spiritual parenting" began; perhaps this is how the "doctrine" of "covering" developed.

For what it's worth, I don't think Cyndi was taking a "pot shot" so to speak. Pot shots and their targets are generally more clearly identifiable. I think Cyndi tends to be more subtle than that. But given the fact that Mike has mentioned giggling about people who are questioning his teachings, I am relatively certain that he and Cyndi are following or have followed this thread on some level.

I do believe that in Cyndi's messge there was an authoritative attempt at manipulation and coersion intended for those who are questioning things. The vagueness of her context (only those who know there are people challenging teaching and practices would "get" the underlying battle to which she is likely referring) leaves the message open to interpretation and application for those who don't know. But who did you hear "amening" on the recording? Those in the front row who are "in the know." I would be surprised if that message was not intended to "address" the "confusion" some are facing as they are reading here or are beginning to ask valid questions as a result of Jackie's departure.

That's the nature of a passive-agressive approach. It's so subtle, you doubt yourself about what you heard. But its so clear that it effectively does what it was intended to do.

Her sermon was flat out accusatory. She constantly talked about the enemy but never indicated whether or not they were enemies of God. She was very careful not to. Only once did she mention the “unbeliever”. But she did say that the lord had been telling her “for the last 3 weeks” that they need to rise up and use their weapons. She also talked about the “enemy” using fear, intimidation and “half-lies” against “the church”. Now, correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Mike and Cyndi refer to TPC as “The Church”?
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the last few sermons addressed defending the church right after the news articles, new videos and a sizable increase in forum posts happened. It was right at that time when the Lord began speaking to her.
I’ve been around long enough to know damage control when I see it. All those who have spoken out against the leadership of TPC are the enemy in their eyes.
Even if I am assuming this, and this is important, don’t you think others in the church will too? Why wouldn’t they if the message was not made clear? It wasn’t. I went through her sermon many times and now I can say with certainty that it went beyond guarding oneself against those who would question faith (in fact she never mentioned this) it was borderline fanaticism.
It looks like she is deliberately stirring the flock into action while the leaders run off to hide.
Sorry to be so blunt but I just call it the way I see it. I will be more than happy to argue the point on the other forum if anyone wishes. She’s “dusted off” her weapons and I’ve made my notes.