R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: March 04, 2007 09:03AM
Here is Dr Ron Killingsworth's (Rephidem Church) daughter Christi Killingworth communicating to me about thier Thieme clone church.
Testy,
I was really interested to read your brother's website -- you did mean your actual brother? In any event, I copied you on my post to his email list. The local church authority issue was the main turning point and eventually, the military hero worship thing wore thin with my father as well. I feel that his inferiority complex about not having served led him to rationalize away from that aspect of Thiemology. His rationale led him to the conclusion that ANY endeavor which removed a person from face-to-face teaching of Bible Doctrine was not valid. Any believer's compromise on this point would result in, at minimum, a lesser reward in heaven and at maximum, divine discipline for rejecting or squandering what he termed "divine operating assets" or DOA's. Your DOA's were your arsenal of tools for learning doctrine including face-to-face teaching (not tapes unless used as a supplement only), the church building, air conditioning, your pen, your brain, getting good sleep so you could concentrate, etc. Basically, the DOAs were what you needed to utilize to their fullest and take advantage of or else you were wasting God's gifts which enable you to learn. Anyway, Thieme's belief that his tapes and his FX hookups and his booklets were as good as or better than face-to-face teaching by a local pastor rankled with the clones and many of them broke loose from Thieme and began independenly developing their own set of terminologies (some new, some overlapping) and names for doctrines and blah blah. It is all the same basic stuff, though. As you can see, I can speak the lingo with you having been to a whole different church which broke from Thieme 20+ years ago. The differences are minimal. The main thing was the clash of the ego between the clones who were trying to emulate Thieme actually made them break from Thieme. If they were going to buy into the idea that the pastor teach was the autonomous and ultimate authority figure, speaking directly for God from the scriptures then eventually they had to turn loose of the Thieme passifyer.
Talk to you soon. I'm enjoying our correspondence.
Christi
Testy-
To expand on the break from Thieme... It was a gradual movement over time. I am speaking from my father's point of view, but I do know this was the thinking among a number of the other pastors. At one time, they even had their own Bible conference minus Thieme in the early 80's. At first, the friction would arise when tapers in the local church would question various small differences in the way Thieme would teach a principle versus the way the pastor was teaching it. Thiemites are very loyal to his terminology, his presentation, etc. Of course, as the pastor matures and starts studying his own materials versus parroting Thieme there will be some degree of divergence from the Thieme template. In order to establish authority as this divergence occurred, tapers were little by little discouraged from listening to Thieme tapes. Any reason for using Thieme tapes gradually disappeared because local tapes were available for supplementary study on days when there was no Bible class, etc. By the late 70's and early 80's "marching to two drummers" was considered a rejection of authority and members were told to pick either Berachah or Rephidim and go there, but that rejecting Rephidim and failing to move to Houston to attend Berachah was a failure to use the "highest and best" that God had to offer -- face-to-face teaching. On contrast, Thieme never backed up this idea of face-to-face teaching as the preferred method of taking in doctrine. Apparently, to him, FX hookups and tapes were just as good as face-to-face. The local ministries resenting this because it undermined their ability to establish their own flocks under their own authority.
What I meant by the Thieme passifyer having to go was that as the pastor established his own church, his own flock and his own authority he had to disengage from Thieme totally. For one thing Berachah never really supported local churches as satellites. Each church is an independent local assembly. This was not a new denomination taking root. Thieme was not annointing disciples and really didn't have any desire to mentor the clone pastors. His ego probably wouldn't allow him to believe that other pastors could do the job as well as he could, so why discourage his own tapers
from listening even if they did have a local pastor teaching "sound doctrine." This concept of the authority of the local pastor and the priority of face-to-face teaching were the two biggy divergences from Thieme.
Eventually, one other divergence was the military thing. Thieme, as you know, is big on the military and basically if you are an able bodied man and don't serve in the military you are a loser. Leaving the local church to serve was encouraged and glorified. In the early years, our church was the same. So many of our young guys joined the marines it was considered weird if you turned 18 and didn't enlist. Later, that teaching changed to say that really there were no valid reasons to intentionally opt out of face-to-face teaching. If circumstances prevented face-to-face like a war or or medical necessity or whatever, then tapes were the next best thing but it was unauthorized to purposely choose to be out of class. This flew directly in the face of Thiemology.
I'm sure there were other doctrinal differences, though as time went on and I was no longer exposed to Thieme I was unaware of any big specific ones and also unaware of any changes or evolutions Thieme went through after the late 70s. My impression of Thieme is stuck in 1979, which from what I have read from other people is where Thieme is also stuck.
Enjoying our dialogue.
Christi
THIEME - BERACHAH CHURCH
KILLINGSWORTH - REPHIDIM CHURCH
ICE CHURCHES - www.bibledoctrine.net
Christi Killingsworth Guess
christiguess@sbcglobal.net
Thieme Tapes & Books 1970-1979
Rephidim Church 1972 - 1996
My exposure to R.B. Thieme began at about age 3. Around 1970, my father -- Ron Killingsworth, DMin. -- began listening to Thieme tapes. At the time, he was pastoring a Southern Baptist church El Dorado, OK and later moved to a larger church in a suburb of Wichita Falls, TX. When he tried to implement some Thieme ideologies and methodologies the congregation shortly asked him to resign. A small following of members split from that church and formed Rephidim Church around 1972. That church still exists.
Rephidim was structured on a Thieme based template. Indicative of this, there was a marked preoccupation with the military, the predisposition toward publicly chastising congregation members, class room setting and copious note-taking. The church and its teachings emulated Berachah as closely as possible in structure and content, including specific terminology and decorum.
Some basic tenants of teaching were:
Absolute authority of the Pastor Teacher, abbreviated P.T.
Members not to study independently. This includes reading the Bible on ones own. Only the PT is the authorized communicator of the Word.
Bible Doctrine is the number one priority and can only be obtained through attending Bible Class taught by the P.T or listening to tapes taught by the P.T.
Members must "separate" from "negative" believers and unbelievers. Past members who leave are subject to "separation" which is equivalent to shunning.
Only churches teaching Bible Doctrine have the truth. Only your "right" church teaching Bible Doctrine can give you the truth. This emphasis on "right" church and "right" P.T. implied that God assigned a specific church and teacher to each believer and failure to sit under the authority of that assigned classroom would result in Divine Discipline.
Rejection of the P.T.’s authority (the authority of Bible Doctrine) is punishable by "triple compound discipline" and eventually death.
Repetition. Through constant, endless repetition and dogged devotion to the rigid schedule of Bible Classes a person could reach a high state of spiritual enlightenment called Super Grace. Failure in these areas would eventually result in a decline to the "sin unto death." Absence from Bible Class not permissible and if class missed, must listen to the taped message to make up the absence.
Happiness or +H is only obtainable by those believers who are "positive" to Bible Doctrine and applying it to their lives. Everybody is unhappy or -H or in rare instance only temporarily happy or what was called "neutral" H. True happiness reserved for the "positive."
Positive believers are the "pivot" or "salt of the earth." The only thing preventing God from destroying creation is us.
Extreme preoccupation with THE END. There was an imminent threat that an outside force -- the communists, liberals or our own government -- would converge to persecute us and/or the world would be destroyed This inevitability and imminent destruction of the world and/or the rapture served to create a sense of "no tomorrow." The distant future was non-existent.
Extreme misogyny. Women were construed to be "flaky females" and never held leadership positions. Women were considered to be their own spiritual priests who would stand before God on their own, but they were also expected to be subservient to their husbands and males in general.
Line by Line/Word by Word teaching. Verses were taught in order from beginning to end, from a given book of the Bible. It would often take MANY YEARS to finish one book of the Bible.
Nonessential church functions not allowed. No singing, no official fellowship associated with church services. No charity work, no "do goodism."
No witnessing unless somebody asked you for information about the church. This was also an "invasion of privacy" and counter to a lot of cult type organizations which actively recruit members. Not so here. Nobody invited new members. They had to come on their own free will and curiosity.
No asking for money outright. The "grace box" was a mail box on the back wall and there was never any request for funds from the pulpit or any personal recognition for giving.
Rebound or confession of sins. Constant confession of sins required in order to maintain a personal relationship with God. Being "out of fellowship" or having unconfessed sins on the life would result in being cut off from God and would also negate any ability to learn Bible Doctrine or produce any Divine Good.
Invidual nullification. People are born with original sin and are inherently bad. Only with the truth can a person be validated.
Outside people are either neutral or hostile. Nobody outside the core of positive believers is valid.
Special terminology. All the teachings were couched in specialized language and terminology and acronyms. A lot of the language is quasi-military such as "operations" and "drills."
Well, I could go on and on relaying individual doctrines. However, I have one antecdote to share about my one and only trip to Berachah Church. There was a Bible conference in Houston and my parents took me with them. We got there and to my young parents' displeasure, they were going to have to leave me in a strange nursery. I was no more than five. Well, having all the confidence in their own militaristic rearing techniques, they went to the store and bought me a tiny little spiral notebook and a pen -- which I was instructed NOT to click -- and took the extreme risk of bringing me into church. Why they risked being bawled out by Thieme if I screwed up, I do not know. They gave me the pre-church warnings that I better not move a muscle, that I would copy down everything I saw on the overhead projector exactly and that I would not click my pen, rattle pages, move, breathe, cough, sneeze, look around, squirm or otherwise exhibit a pulse. This I did out of extreme fear of being murdered. Now, this may seem like a cute little story and it does make me chuckle. However, that level of fear and intimidation on a five year old child is the hallmark of this sect/cult/church type. Everybody, at all levels, lives under that same degree of terror all their lives or as long as they can stand to stay. Then, the terror continues because people who leave cannot easily shake the feeling of impending doom. It often takes many years to recover and some never do fully believe that they are free.
Testy,
I was really interested to read your brother's website -- you did mean your actual brother? In any event, I copied you on my post to his email list. The local church authority issue was the main turning point and eventually, the military hero worship thing wore thin with my father as well. I feel that his inferiority complex about not having served led him to rationalize away from that aspect of Thiemology. His rationale led him to the conclusion that ANY endeavor which removed a person from face-to-face teaching of Bible Doctrine was not valid. Any believer's compromise on this point would result in, at minimum, a lesser reward in heaven and at maximum, divine discipline for rejecting or squandering what he termed "divine operating assets" or DOA's. Your DOA's were your arsenal of tools for learning doctrine including face-to-face teaching (not tapes unless used as a supplement only), the church building, air conditioning, your pen, your brain, getting good sleep so you could concentrate, etc. Basically, the DOAs were what you needed to utilize to their fullest and take advantage of or else you were wasting God's gifts which enable you to learn. Anyway, Thieme's belief that his tapes and his FX hookups and his booklets were as good as or better than face-to-face teaching by a local pastor rankled with the clones and many of them broke loose from Thieme and began independenly developing their own set of terminologies (some new, some overlapping) and names for doctrines and blah blah. It is all the same basic stuff, though. As you can see, I can speak the lingo with you having been to a whole different church which broke from Thieme 20+ years ago. The differences are minimal. The main thing was the clash of the ego between the clones who were trying to emulate Thieme actually made them break from Thieme. If they were going to buy into the idea that the pastor teach was the autonomous and ultimate authority figure, speaking directly for God from the scriptures then eventually they had to turn loose of the Thieme passifyer.
Talk to you soon. I'm enjoying our correspondence.
Christi
Testy-
To expand on the break from Thieme... It was a gradual movement over time. I am speaking from my father's point of view, but I do know this was the thinking among a number of the other pastors. At one time, they even had their own Bible conference minus Thieme in the early 80's. At first, the friction would arise when tapers in the local church would question various small differences in the way Thieme would teach a principle versus the way the pastor was teaching it. Thiemites are very loyal to his terminology, his presentation, etc. Of course, as the pastor matures and starts studying his own materials versus parroting Thieme there will be some degree of divergence from the Thieme template. In order to establish authority as this divergence occurred, tapers were little by little discouraged from listening to Thieme tapes. Any reason for using Thieme tapes gradually disappeared because local tapes were available for supplementary study on days when there was no Bible class, etc. By the late 70's and early 80's "marching to two drummers" was considered a rejection of authority and members were told to pick either Berachah or Rephidim and go there, but that rejecting Rephidim and failing to move to Houston to attend Berachah was a failure to use the "highest and best" that God had to offer -- face-to-face teaching. On contrast, Thieme never backed up this idea of face-to-face teaching as the preferred method of taking in doctrine. Apparently, to him, FX hookups and tapes were just as good as face-to-face. The local ministries resenting this because it undermined their ability to establish their own flocks under their own authority.
What I meant by the Thieme passifyer having to go was that as the pastor established his own church, his own flock and his own authority he had to disengage from Thieme totally. For one thing Berachah never really supported local churches as satellites. Each church is an independent local assembly. This was not a new denomination taking root. Thieme was not annointing disciples and really didn't have any desire to mentor the clone pastors. His ego probably wouldn't allow him to believe that other pastors could do the job as well as he could, so why discourage his own tapers
from listening even if they did have a local pastor teaching "sound doctrine." This concept of the authority of the local pastor and the priority of face-to-face teaching were the two biggy divergences from Thieme.
Eventually, one other divergence was the military thing. Thieme, as you know, is big on the military and basically if you are an able bodied man and don't serve in the military you are a loser. Leaving the local church to serve was encouraged and glorified. In the early years, our church was the same. So many of our young guys joined the marines it was considered weird if you turned 18 and didn't enlist. Later, that teaching changed to say that really there were no valid reasons to intentionally opt out of face-to-face teaching. If circumstances prevented face-to-face like a war or or medical necessity or whatever, then tapes were the next best thing but it was unauthorized to purposely choose to be out of class. This flew directly in the face of Thiemology.
I'm sure there were other doctrinal differences, though as time went on and I was no longer exposed to Thieme I was unaware of any big specific ones and also unaware of any changes or evolutions Thieme went through after the late 70s. My impression of Thieme is stuck in 1979, which from what I have read from other people is where Thieme is also stuck.
Enjoying our dialogue.
Christi
THIEME - BERACHAH CHURCH
KILLINGSWORTH - REPHIDIM CHURCH
ICE CHURCHES - www.bibledoctrine.net
Christi Killingsworth Guess
christiguess@sbcglobal.net
Thieme Tapes & Books 1970-1979
Rephidim Church 1972 - 1996
My exposure to R.B. Thieme began at about age 3. Around 1970, my father -- Ron Killingsworth, DMin. -- began listening to Thieme tapes. At the time, he was pastoring a Southern Baptist church El Dorado, OK and later moved to a larger church in a suburb of Wichita Falls, TX. When he tried to implement some Thieme ideologies and methodologies the congregation shortly asked him to resign. A small following of members split from that church and formed Rephidim Church around 1972. That church still exists.
Rephidim was structured on a Thieme based template. Indicative of this, there was a marked preoccupation with the military, the predisposition toward publicly chastising congregation members, class room setting and copious note-taking. The church and its teachings emulated Berachah as closely as possible in structure and content, including specific terminology and decorum.
Some basic tenants of teaching were:
Absolute authority of the Pastor Teacher, abbreviated P.T.
Members not to study independently. This includes reading the Bible on ones own. Only the PT is the authorized communicator of the Word.
Bible Doctrine is the number one priority and can only be obtained through attending Bible Class taught by the P.T or listening to tapes taught by the P.T.
Members must "separate" from "negative" believers and unbelievers. Past members who leave are subject to "separation" which is equivalent to shunning.
Only churches teaching Bible Doctrine have the truth. Only your "right" church teaching Bible Doctrine can give you the truth. This emphasis on "right" church and "right" P.T. implied that God assigned a specific church and teacher to each believer and failure to sit under the authority of that assigned classroom would result in Divine Discipline.
Rejection of the P.T.’s authority (the authority of Bible Doctrine) is punishable by "triple compound discipline" and eventually death.
Repetition. Through constant, endless repetition and dogged devotion to the rigid schedule of Bible Classes a person could reach a high state of spiritual enlightenment called Super Grace. Failure in these areas would eventually result in a decline to the "sin unto death." Absence from Bible Class not permissible and if class missed, must listen to the taped message to make up the absence.
Happiness or +H is only obtainable by those believers who are "positive" to Bible Doctrine and applying it to their lives. Everybody is unhappy or -H or in rare instance only temporarily happy or what was called "neutral" H. True happiness reserved for the "positive."
Positive believers are the "pivot" or "salt of the earth." The only thing preventing God from destroying creation is us.
Extreme preoccupation with THE END. There was an imminent threat that an outside force -- the communists, liberals or our own government -- would converge to persecute us and/or the world would be destroyed This inevitability and imminent destruction of the world and/or the rapture served to create a sense of "no tomorrow." The distant future was non-existent.
Extreme misogyny. Women were construed to be "flaky females" and never held leadership positions. Women were considered to be their own spiritual priests who would stand before God on their own, but they were also expected to be subservient to their husbands and males in general.
Line by Line/Word by Word teaching. Verses were taught in order from beginning to end, from a given book of the Bible. It would often take MANY YEARS to finish one book of the Bible.
Nonessential church functions not allowed. No singing, no official fellowship associated with church services. No charity work, no "do goodism."
No witnessing unless somebody asked you for information about the church. This was also an "invasion of privacy" and counter to a lot of cult type organizations which actively recruit members. Not so here. Nobody invited new members. They had to come on their own free will and curiosity.
No asking for money outright. The "grace box" was a mail box on the back wall and there was never any request for funds from the pulpit or any personal recognition for giving.
Rebound or confession of sins. Constant confession of sins required in order to maintain a personal relationship with God. Being "out of fellowship" or having unconfessed sins on the life would result in being cut off from God and would also negate any ability to learn Bible Doctrine or produce any Divine Good.
Invidual nullification. People are born with original sin and are inherently bad. Only with the truth can a person be validated.
Outside people are either neutral or hostile. Nobody outside the core of positive believers is valid.
Special terminology. All the teachings were couched in specialized language and terminology and acronyms. A lot of the language is quasi-military such as "operations" and "drills."
Well, I could go on and on relaying individual doctrines. However, I have one antecdote to share about my one and only trip to Berachah Church. There was a Bible conference in Houston and my parents took me with them. We got there and to my young parents' displeasure, they were going to have to leave me in a strange nursery. I was no more than five. Well, having all the confidence in their own militaristic rearing techniques, they went to the store and bought me a tiny little spiral notebook and a pen -- which I was instructed NOT to click -- and took the extreme risk of bringing me into church. Why they risked being bawled out by Thieme if I screwed up, I do not know. They gave me the pre-church warnings that I better not move a muscle, that I would copy down everything I saw on the overhead projector exactly and that I would not click my pen, rattle pages, move, breathe, cough, sneeze, look around, squirm or otherwise exhibit a pulse. This I did out of extreme fear of being murdered. Now, this may seem like a cute little story and it does make me chuckle. However, that level of fear and intimidation on a five year old child is the hallmark of this sect/cult/church type. Everybody, at all levels, lives under that same degree of terror all their lives or as long as they can stand to stay. Then, the terror continues because people who leave cannot easily shake the feeling of impending doom. It often takes many years to recover and some never do fully believe that they are free.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 04, 2007 09:08AM
Truthtesty:
So no one other than the "clone churches" cited accept Thieme?
There is no mainstream biblical scholar with an accredited Ph.D. that would accept his exegesis or opinions on scripture as credible?
So no one other than the "clone churches" cited accept Thieme?
There is no mainstream biblical scholar with an accredited Ph.D. that would accept his exegesis or opinions on scripture as credible?
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: March 04, 2007 10:08AM
To rrmoderator:
I haven't heard of any. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they do exist, I would certainly be interested in what they have to say.
Truthtesty
I haven't heard of any. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they do exist, I would certainly be interested in what they have to say.
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Galiban
()
Date: March 04, 2007 12:20PM
Nosotruthtesty,
I already showed you Dr. Wall “glazed” over epignossis. Which you could not and did not refute. He was in absolute error. His credibility over something so simple to detect did not “go out the window” in your mind.
Did you even read this Gen 15:20
“ Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,”
In my studies I have am hitting hurdles. You[b:8654b21810][u:8654b21810] have not [/u:8654b21810][/b:8654b21810]Posted Thieme’s work that I can fact check. Dr. Wall is obviously in error in this instance too!
Shall his credibility “go out the window”?
Two error’s in the work of the man you tout in just a few hours of study. And you complain cause I copy and pasted some guys work and didn’t fact check until the next day? I just read the passage in question and did not make certain it was accurate. But the rub is “I” Checked it! I discovered the error. You have not ability or means to do so.
I already showed you Dr. Wall “glazed” over epignossis. Which you could not and did not refute. He was in absolute error. His credibility over something so simple to detect did not “go out the window” in your mind.
Quote
A quote from The Dr. Wall in your Post on:
02-26-2007 07:57 PM
A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example, Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in [u:8654b21810][b:8654b21810]Genesis 15:20[/b:8654b21810][/u:8654b21810] "satanic policy." In this case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm.
Did you even read this Gen 15:20
“ Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,”
In my studies I have am hitting hurdles. You[b:8654b21810][u:8654b21810] have not [/u:8654b21810][/b:8654b21810]Posted Thieme’s work that I can fact check. Dr. Wall is obviously in error in this instance too!
Shall his credibility “go out the window”?
Two error’s in the work of the man you tout in just a few hours of study. And you complain cause I copy and pasted some guys work and didn’t fact check until the next day? I just read the passage in question and did not make certain it was accurate. But the rub is “I” Checked it! I discovered the error. You have not ability or means to do so.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Galiban
()
Date: March 04, 2007 12:23PM
Moderator
Bible.org did these translations. These are scholars in the field translating for a new Bible.
Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.
Daniel B. Wallace has taught Greek and New Testament courses on a graduate school level since 1979. He has a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is currently professor of New Testament Studies at his alma mater.
Michael H. Burer , Th.M., Ph.D.
Michael Burer graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1998 with the Th.M. and in 2004 with a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies. He is the Assistant Editor for the NET Bible translation which the Foundation is sponsoring.
Of the biblical studies foundation.
Biblical Studies Foundation (BSF)
These are passages they translated that concur with my exegesis to support Right Pastor teacher. I in turn support this doctrine from Thieme. I cannot find the work that Dr. Wall quoted to tell you what Thieme believed only that people say he taught this poorly and it was wrong. I cannot find that work.
Below is the “nut” of the doctrine. I can expand if you desire it.
1st Timothy 1:18 I put this charge25 before you, Timothy my child, in keeping with the prophecies once spoken about you,26 in order that with such encouragement27 you may fight the good fight.
1st Timothy 5:21 Before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, I solemnly charge you to carry out these commands without prejudice or favoritism of any kind.40
[b:1e4a586486]He is charged before God and answerable only to God when he fails in carrying out the commands that are laid out in this book of the Bible. He is charged with ensuring that all instructions for the church are held to. He is given the authority over the church.[/b:1e4a586486]
Acts 20:28 Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son,
1st Peter 5:3And do not lord it over5 those entrusted to you,6 but be examples to the flock.
[b:1e4a586486]The pastor is assigned certain people under him. Conversely, the congregation has a pastor teacher assigned to them.[/b:1e4a586486]
How he does that is entirely up to him and not open to scrutiny. If it was, the verse would state “I charge you before God, Christ Jesus, the elect angels and all other [u:1e4a586486]Pastor Teachers[/u:1e4a586486]…..”
[i:1e4a586486][b:1e4a586486]Just these passages show that The Pastor is charged with the authority over the church, only answerable to God and he is assigned a congregation. [/b:1e4a586486][/i:1e4a586486]
Most important however, if you are a Christian you know that Scripture is the utmost importance.
Truth testy is only irritated when scripture is quoted to him. Listening to the viewpoint of an unbeliever that doesn’t like scripture would be…. damaging.
I can find proponents for and against any exegetical process. I don’t have to look hard for either. The key is that the work is evaluated with study under the guidance of God.
Bible.org did these translations. These are scholars in the field translating for a new Bible.
Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.
Daniel B. Wallace has taught Greek and New Testament courses on a graduate school level since 1979. He has a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is currently professor of New Testament Studies at his alma mater.
Michael H. Burer , Th.M., Ph.D.
Michael Burer graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1998 with the Th.M. and in 2004 with a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies. He is the Assistant Editor for the NET Bible translation which the Foundation is sponsoring.
Of the biblical studies foundation.
Biblical Studies Foundation (BSF)
These are passages they translated that concur with my exegesis to support Right Pastor teacher. I in turn support this doctrine from Thieme. I cannot find the work that Dr. Wall quoted to tell you what Thieme believed only that people say he taught this poorly and it was wrong. I cannot find that work.
Below is the “nut” of the doctrine. I can expand if you desire it.
1st Timothy 1:18 I put this charge25 before you, Timothy my child, in keeping with the prophecies once spoken about you,26 in order that with such encouragement27 you may fight the good fight.
1st Timothy 5:21 Before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, I solemnly charge you to carry out these commands without prejudice or favoritism of any kind.40
[b:1e4a586486]He is charged before God and answerable only to God when he fails in carrying out the commands that are laid out in this book of the Bible. He is charged with ensuring that all instructions for the church are held to. He is given the authority over the church.[/b:1e4a586486]
Acts 20:28 Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son,
1st Peter 5:3And do not lord it over5 those entrusted to you,6 but be examples to the flock.
[b:1e4a586486]The pastor is assigned certain people under him. Conversely, the congregation has a pastor teacher assigned to them.[/b:1e4a586486]
How he does that is entirely up to him and not open to scrutiny. If it was, the verse would state “I charge you before God, Christ Jesus, the elect angels and all other [u:1e4a586486]Pastor Teachers[/u:1e4a586486]…..”
[i:1e4a586486][b:1e4a586486]Just these passages show that The Pastor is charged with the authority over the church, only answerable to God and he is assigned a congregation. [/b:1e4a586486][/i:1e4a586486]
Most important however, if you are a Christian you know that Scripture is the utmost importance.
Quote
From 03-02-2007 03:37 PM
Ok You missed the point. You did exactly as I thought you would, you avoided answering the question and ran off into scripture after scripture.
Truth testy is only irritated when scripture is quoted to him. Listening to the viewpoint of an unbeliever that doesn’t like scripture would be…. damaging.
I can find proponents for and against any exegetical process. I don’t have to look hard for either. The key is that the work is evaluated with study under the guidance of God.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 04, 2007 08:05PM
Galiban:
You said,
Are you saying that Daniel B. Wallace or Michael H. Burer have made public statements that they support the exegesis of Thieme? Where and when have they made such statements specifically? Can you identify a link where such statements are posted through the Internet?
You said,
Quote
Moderator
Bible.org did these translations. These are scholars in the field translating for a new Bible.
Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.
Daniel B. Wallace has taught Greek and New Testament courses on a graduate school level since 1979. He has a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is currently professor of New Testament Studies at his alma mater.
Michael H. Burer , Th.M., Ph.D.
Michael Burer graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1998 with the Th.M. and in 2004 with a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies. He is the Assistant Editor for the NET Bible translation which the Foundation is sponsoring.
Are you saying that Daniel B. Wallace or Michael H. Burer have made public statements that they support the exegesis of Thieme? Where and when have they made such statements specifically? Can you identify a link where such statements are posted through the Internet?
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
HappyAndFree
()
Date: March 04, 2007 11:47PM
rrmoderator,
I do not think that any sound bible scholars would support the teachings of RB Thieme, Jr. He is off-base on many issues, "the blood of Christ" "right pastor" and many others. These have been documented in much literature available on the web and beyond. He has created his own metaphors and tries to pawn them off as sound theology--ie, likening the parts of the human body to parts of the unseen soul. For example, he says every scriptural reference to kidneys is talking about human emotions (which he portrays in quite a negative light, BTW).
My pastor, a PHD Theologian, does not agree with Thieme's interpretation of scripture in many areas.
Another pastor (PHD Theologian) I know made this remark when I asked him what he thought of Thieme's ministry, "Well, if my children decided to leave the Baptist church, I wouldn't have a problem with most any other denomination they would choose. But if they wanted to become involved in Thieme's ministry, it would be over my dead body".
Thieme and his followers must be viewed as dangerously wrong in their interpretation of scripture. I don't know if it is a cult. But it is dangerously wrong. My Christian therapist investigated the ministry and concluded that he thought it was "cultish". This was during therapy I received while trying to come to terms with my upbringing in Berachah church.
To me, it is apparent by the posts of Thieme's followers that they have been brainwashed. They honestly believe and adhere to these teachings. They can't help it. I was like that once too. Years ago, I would have posted in support of Thieme. But therapy helped to clean up the mess he created in me. Since then, I have had a closer personal relationship with God. I call myself "Happy and Free" for that reason. I was neither happy nor free when under Thieme's hypnotic spell. But I would have argued I was very happy and free.
You can't argue with folks who are under this hypnotic spell. I think the only hope for them to see the truth is to go directly to God and ask Him to reveal the truth. And they need to be open to the possibility that they may have been previously misled. That is what I did. I didn't think Thieme had misled me, but when I heard conflicting viewpoints, I would pray to God and present the discrepency, then ask Him to show the truth. It's a process, and God is still revealing more everyday. I didn't just wake up one day and realize Thieme's teachings were off-base. It was a slow, sometimes painful, awakening process. And residual negative effects of this upbringing are still with me. But God continues to help me recover.
I do not think that any sound bible scholars would support the teachings of RB Thieme, Jr. He is off-base on many issues, "the blood of Christ" "right pastor" and many others. These have been documented in much literature available on the web and beyond. He has created his own metaphors and tries to pawn them off as sound theology--ie, likening the parts of the human body to parts of the unseen soul. For example, he says every scriptural reference to kidneys is talking about human emotions (which he portrays in quite a negative light, BTW).
My pastor, a PHD Theologian, does not agree with Thieme's interpretation of scripture in many areas.
Another pastor (PHD Theologian) I know made this remark when I asked him what he thought of Thieme's ministry, "Well, if my children decided to leave the Baptist church, I wouldn't have a problem with most any other denomination they would choose. But if they wanted to become involved in Thieme's ministry, it would be over my dead body".
Thieme and his followers must be viewed as dangerously wrong in their interpretation of scripture. I don't know if it is a cult. But it is dangerously wrong. My Christian therapist investigated the ministry and concluded that he thought it was "cultish". This was during therapy I received while trying to come to terms with my upbringing in Berachah church.
To me, it is apparent by the posts of Thieme's followers that they have been brainwashed. They honestly believe and adhere to these teachings. They can't help it. I was like that once too. Years ago, I would have posted in support of Thieme. But therapy helped to clean up the mess he created in me. Since then, I have had a closer personal relationship with God. I call myself "Happy and Free" for that reason. I was neither happy nor free when under Thieme's hypnotic spell. But I would have argued I was very happy and free.
You can't argue with folks who are under this hypnotic spell. I think the only hope for them to see the truth is to go directly to God and ask Him to reveal the truth. And they need to be open to the possibility that they may have been previously misled. That is what I did. I didn't think Thieme had misled me, but when I heard conflicting viewpoints, I would pray to God and present the discrepency, then ask Him to show the truth. It's a process, and God is still revealing more everyday. I didn't just wake up one day and realize Thieme's teachings were off-base. It was a slow, sometimes painful, awakening process. And residual negative effects of this upbringing are still with me. But God continues to help me recover.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Galiban
()
Date: March 05, 2007 02:04AM
Moderator,
I misunderstood I thought you wanted exegetical proof of that teaching. I do not know if those two directly support Thieme. Here is one that does. Notice, this particular “giant in the field” could not be found by those that do not support Thieme….
Dr. Robert Dean – Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies, Ph.D. in theological studies emphasis in Historical Theology. M.A. in Philosophy
I have linked his role and background. He wrote and edited many of the teachings of Thieme and now has his own ministry. He follows these teachings and you can see his extensive education.
[deanbible.org]
Here is where Dr. Robert Dean openly recommends R.B. Thieme’s teachings. (Bottom of Page)
[www.westhoustonbiblechurch.org]
R. B. Thieme, Jr. The books of R. B. Thieme, Jr on the Christian life and basic doctrines of the Bible are heartily recommended for the reading of every believer. These can be ordered from R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries, 5139 W. Alabama, Houston, Texas, 77056
Clearly others here do not wish you to know this or they would have pointed it out. All of these teachings that R.B. Thieme taught was received from the Dallas Theological seminary under Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer is the Founder of Dallas Theological seminary.
Thieme graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary (summa cum laude). Many of those that disagree with Thieme’s and Chafer’s teachings have this degree. [b:449f6c28b5][u:449f6c28b5]I have not found one that would call him a cult or heretic. Not even Dr. Wall.[/u:449f6c28b5][/b:449f6c28b5]
I would not call those that have been ordained by Thieme to have received an ordination from a “mill”. It was very difficult to receive an ordination from Thieme. All had to understand the same teachings he received from Lewis Sperry Chafer.
Though the Dallas Theological seminary today has graduates that disagree with Thieme, many that graduate from Dallas Theological seminary become “clone churches” and adhere to the Teachings of Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie and Thieme.
To understand the Exegetical process you can read the Systematic Theology (8 vols.) published in 1948 by Chafer. I have posted a link of wikipedia (and I cannot testify to the complete accuracy of this…) this link should give you a brief definition and history to this process. [en.wikipedia.org]
I misunderstood I thought you wanted exegetical proof of that teaching. I do not know if those two directly support Thieme. Here is one that does. Notice, this particular “giant in the field” could not be found by those that do not support Thieme….
Dr. Robert Dean – Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies, Ph.D. in theological studies emphasis in Historical Theology. M.A. in Philosophy
Quote
Before coming to West Houston Bible Church, Dr. Dean was the Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. Prior to that he spent seven years as a writer and editor for the publications of R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries. He also pastored churches in both the Houston and Dallas, Texas areas and has over twenty five years experience in pastoral ministry.
Dr. Dean trained for the ministry at Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies and later returned to pursue a Ph.D. in theological studies with an emphasis in Historical Theology. He also earned an M.A. in Philosophy from the University of St. Thomas (1987) and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Faith Evangelical Seminary (2002). In 1988 he was recognized as an Outstanding Young Man of America, and in 1989 was listed in the Who's Who in American Christian Leadership .
I have linked his role and background. He wrote and edited many of the teachings of Thieme and now has his own ministry. He follows these teachings and you can see his extensive education.
[deanbible.org]
Here is where Dr. Robert Dean openly recommends R.B. Thieme’s teachings. (Bottom of Page)
[www.westhoustonbiblechurch.org]
R. B. Thieme, Jr. The books of R. B. Thieme, Jr on the Christian life and basic doctrines of the Bible are heartily recommended for the reading of every believer. These can be ordered from R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries, 5139 W. Alabama, Houston, Texas, 77056
Clearly others here do not wish you to know this or they would have pointed it out. All of these teachings that R.B. Thieme taught was received from the Dallas Theological seminary under Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer is the Founder of Dallas Theological seminary.
Thieme graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary (summa cum laude). Many of those that disagree with Thieme’s and Chafer’s teachings have this degree. [b:449f6c28b5][u:449f6c28b5]I have not found one that would call him a cult or heretic. Not even Dr. Wall.[/u:449f6c28b5][/b:449f6c28b5]
I would not call those that have been ordained by Thieme to have received an ordination from a “mill”. It was very difficult to receive an ordination from Thieme. All had to understand the same teachings he received from Lewis Sperry Chafer.
Though the Dallas Theological seminary today has graduates that disagree with Thieme, many that graduate from Dallas Theological seminary become “clone churches” and adhere to the Teachings of Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie and Thieme.
To understand the Exegetical process you can read the Systematic Theology (8 vols.) published in 1948 by Chafer. I have posted a link of wikipedia (and I cannot testify to the complete accuracy of this…) this link should give you a brief definition and history to this process. [en.wikipedia.org]
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 05, 2007 07:11AM
Galiban:
Your last response to TruthTesty was little more than a flame, which is against the rules.
Attempting to attack people personally is not a meaningful response and doesn't reflect well upon you.
Frankly, it seems to me that you have essentially run out of gas. Typically, when people can't support their arguments and resort to personal attacks that is usually the case.
You have offered no meaningful scholarly support for Thieme. He is apparently a very isolated and relatively unimportant man that serious biblical scholars have dismissed repeatedly.
You asked that this thread be closed.
Sorry, it will stay open, but you may be banned from the board if you cannot follow the rules you agreed to.
Your last response to TruthTesty was little more than a flame, which is against the rules.
Attempting to attack people personally is not a meaningful response and doesn't reflect well upon you.
Frankly, it seems to me that you have essentially run out of gas. Typically, when people can't support their arguments and resort to personal attacks that is usually the case.
You have offered no meaningful scholarly support for Thieme. He is apparently a very isolated and relatively unimportant man that serious biblical scholars have dismissed repeatedly.
You asked that this thread be closed.
Sorry, it will stay open, but you may be banned from the board if you cannot follow the rules you agreed to.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: March 05, 2007 08:14AM
A compilation of former group member accounts (1960-2004) and other articles can be downloaded from:-
[www.4shared.com]
Whilst examinations of various teachings are included, please note that it is a group’s structure and thought reform methods (articles re these subjects are available on the Rick Ross site) that are the determining factors as to a groups potential for undue harm upon its members. The actual teachings or doctrines of a group -though they can possibly be a factor- are a secondary issue.
[www.4shared.com]
Whilst examinations of various teachings are included, please note that it is a group’s structure and thought reform methods (articles re these subjects are available on the Rick Ross site) that are the determining factors as to a groups potential for undue harm upon its members. The actual teachings or doctrines of a group -though they can possibly be a factor- are a secondary issue.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.