Galiban quote

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I have not found one that would call him a cult or heretic. Not even Dr. Wall.

Per Dr. Wall's dissertation

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Finally, his differentiation between the "message" and the "man" is notcompletely a biblical view. It is true that honoring the teacher is not appropriate.However, God desires that the vessel he uses to communicate his message be onethat does not detract from the message. [b:0eb3e5534b]The argument that the life of the teacheris irrelevant is one also used by some cult leaders[/b:0eb3e5534b] to excuse their life styles.20

20 [b:0eb3e5534b]For example, the leaders of the Children of God teach that their people are to ignore their blatant immorality and submit to their authoritative teaching because they are God's appointed authoritative teachers[/b:0eb3e5534b].

Per Dr. Wall's dissertation

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In addition, it should also be observed that Thieme's statements
concerning the "mastering of the details of life" disregard the biblical approach to one's priorities. Thieme makes family and friends secondary to Bible doctrine. [b:0eb3e5534b]This is an extremely dangerous approach (as illustrated in the [u:0eb3e5534b]cults[/u:0eb3e5534b] such as the Children of God who define commitment to God in terms of commitment to their leaders' teachings, and then place the group above family and other relationships)[/b:0eb3e5534b]. A healthy set of priorities should place one's personal relationship with God first (Lk. 14:26), family second (I Pet. 3:1-7; Eph. 5:22-33; 1 Tim. 5:8; and John 15:13), and one's relationship to a teacher and his doctrine at a much lower level of priority (3 John 9, 10).

Per Dr. Wall's dissertation

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Seventh, an extensive emphasis on the doctrine of right pastor can produce a fear of leaving a local church. [b:0eb3e5534b]If Bible doctrine is defined in terms of that which one's pastor-teacher communicates[/b:0eb3e5534b], then leaving his authority, in the minds of many, is tantamount to leaving God or moving into reversionism. [b:0eb3e5534b]This is similar to the emotional slavery developed by the authoritative leaders of some of the newer, [u:0eb3e5534b]false cults[/u:0eb3e5534b].[/b:0eb3e5534b]

TRUTHTESTY

Per Dr. Wall's dissertation:

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but neither does it rule out the normal expressions of one who truly takes God's attitude toward sin in his life. Unless the full ramifications of true agreement about (or acknowledgement of) sins are taught, there can be practical abuses of the doctrine of confession. Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can [b:bf76f5ea62]can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin16 and the repression of guilt, and this [i:bf76f5ea62][u:bf76f5ea62]can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia.[/u:bf76f5ea62][/i:bf76f5ea62] The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship.[/b:bf76f5ea62]

TRUTHTESTY

To Galiban,

Galiban quote:

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Here is where Dr. Robert Dean openly recommends R.B. Thieme’s teachings. (Bottom of Page)
[www.westhoustonbiblechurch.org]
R. B. Thieme, Jr. The books of R. B. Thieme, Jr on the Christian life and basic doctrines of the Bible are heartily recommended for the reading of every believer. These can be ordered from R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries, 5139 W. Alabama, Houston, Texas, 77056

Clearly others here do not wish you to know this or they would have pointed it out.

I had no idea who Robert Dean was until you brought it up. You are clearly making a false accusation against me. I know you are making a false allegation and you should be competent enought to know that you are. This is another thing that does not reflect well on you.

Some Thiemites lose thier self-respect completely in thier immoral devotion to thier cult leader Thieme, thus have no respect to offer others who are deserving of respect.

Truthtesty

Galiban quote

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Nosotruthtesty,
I already showed you Dr. Wall “glazed” over epignossis. Which you could not and did not refute. He was in absolute error. His credibility over something so simple to detect did not “go out the window” in your mind.

Galiban it is you that glazing over Dr. Wall's critique. Read all of it on Spiritual maturity, then comment. I can and have refuted anything you say.

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He was in absolute error

Galiban get a grip your coming apart. Dr. Wall did make mention of epignosis though Thieme is off-based in the way he used it. Read the whole critique, then comment.
Critique
One's first reaction to this extremely complex analysis of the maturity process is that it is totally absurd, and that Thieme must not be serious -- but apparently he is serious. After making some observations about the difference between human wisdom and divine wisdom and about the significance of the term epignosis, he begins to believe his own detailed description of the soul and spirit and to push it to extremes far beyond any biblical teaching. One striking characteristic of Thieme's in-depth analysis in this area is the almost total absence of sound exegesis. The statement in James 1:21 concerning the implanted word (emphuton logon) is expanded without any exegetical basis to describe four of Thieme's own categories of production. A brief reference to Peter's reminding of believers to remember certain doctrines is supposed to be a sufficient biblical base for the concept of the memory center "valves."
[b:dee6e815c7]Although it is proper to observe the special emphasis that the term epignosis has, Thieme has overstated the distinctions between gnosis and
epignosis. Knowledge (gnosis) does not have the highly technical sense employed by Thieme. It is used of the knowledge in the mind of God(Rom.11:33), and it is also used of one of the building blocks in the structuring of Christian character in 2 Peter 1:5 (Here the term seems more in keeping with Thieme's concept of epignosis.). It is probably best to take the term gnosis to refer to knowledge in general, including at times epignosis; epignosis does, however, seem to have a more specialized use: Christian knowledge which “carries with it a corresponding manner of life.”33[/b:dee6e815c7] There are two primary problems with Thieme's concept of the process of growth (the function of GAP). First, it demands a view of the pastor-teacher that is not in keeping with the biblical statements nor with the biblical mentality. This will be discussed further in the next chapter. Second, the entire process that Thieme propounds can be reduced to one phrase: Be positive toward and believe what is taught. Not only does this concept dangerously produce a blind dependency on a pastor-teacher, but it fails to encompass the clear scriptural pattern for growth. Paul's classic passage on spiritual maturity, Ephesians 4, indicates two aspects of the process that Thieme has overlooked. First, verse 16 teaches that spiritual growth takes place through the contact and interaction of the members of the body of Christ, as every spiritual gift in the body functions and ministers to other gifts. Second, the subject of "speaking the truth in love" in verse 15 is "we." In the context this means the whole body of believers. Not only does the process of spiritual maturity involve all of the members of the body ministering to one another, but the biblical pattern requires application of truth, not only as a result of maturity but as a part of the process of growing itself. Christ taught that a volitional decision to obey God's will would result in discernment (John 7:17). He also taught that the building of our spiritual house and its stability depends upon acting upon the teachings of Christ (Matt. 7:24-27). Also the writer of Hebrews taught that a key element in spiritual maturity is the discernment between good and evil, and he indicated that practical exercise (hexin) was necessary to develop mature discernment. The maturing process is not sitting under a particular, authoritative pastor-teacher every night of the week and responding with positive faith. It is the loving communication of the truths of God's Word by all of the members of the body, expressing the particular illumination that the Holy Spirit gives to each person in accordance with his particular gift. The pastor-teacher and the evangelist (Eph. 4:1 lb) are to equip the saints (all believers) with the tools for personal Bible study and application; the saints, in turn, carry out the work of service for the purpose of building up the body of Christ (Eph. 4:12). Each individual Christian grows as he responds to the truth so communicated to him. That response includes both attitude changes and overt actions. Thieme's GAP approach is totally off-balanced. Not only does it fail to enhance true spiritual growth, it actually can inhibit true growth by giving the believer a false sense of maturity, not unlike the "puffed up" believer in I Corinthians 8: 1.
33 Kittel, Theological Dictionary, s.v. "ginosko, gnosis, epiginosko, epignosis),"by Rudolph
Bultinann, 1(1964):707.
114

Galiban now tell us was Dr. Wall in absolute error? think


Galiban

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In my studies I have am hitting hurdles.

Ok well you said it was useless to debate a non-christian, apparently it's not.


Galiban

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You have not Posted Thieme’s work that I can fact check. Dr. Wall is obviously in error in this instance too!

This makes no sense, your not making logical sense. Dr. Wall is in error of what?

Galiban

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Shall his credibility “go out the window”?

No. Dr. Wall fact checked his work before he presented information to other people.


Two error’s in the work of the man you tout in just a few hours of study. And you complain cause I copy and pasted some guys work and didn’t fact check until the next day? I just read the passage in question and did not make certain it was accurate. But the rub is “I” Checked it! I discovered the error. You have not ability or means to do so.[/quote]


The rub is, you know that "I" would have caught it and I would have brought it to light(sooner or later). That would have been twice as embarassing, so you corrected it. I doubt you would have done so trying to convince someone else. And why are you copying and pasting someone else's work? Also, you read, you did not make certain it was accurate, but you would have eveyone believe your shody information because you thought it supported your cause. You do not fact check before you have others believe? Shame Shame. Your learning methods need a lot of work. Then you falsely accuse me of (Galiban

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"You have not ability or means to do so"

when I have clearly checked and defeated everyone of your arguments. I don't know how old you are, but if you would like to e-mail directly we can talk were it's less embarassing for you. You have shown me none of Dr. Wall's errors. You apparently have to do more than a glazed over reading to get the point of what's going on.

Truthtesty

Galiban,


Young's literal translation
1 Timothy 5:21
I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

Diamarturomai
to testify
earnestly, religiously to charge
to attest, testify to, solemnly affirm
to give solemn testimony to one
to confirm a thing by testimony, to testify, cause it to be believed


This is an oath that the Apostle Paul is making before God, Jesus, and the angels. It makes sense that Paul [u:57496433f7]is not[/u:57496433f7] making an oath by pastor teachers, but is making an oath before God.

Note also it says WITHOUT PREDJUDICE! without the SUBJECTIVITY OF PREJUDICE!


There is nothing here that says a Pastor has sole authority over his own coongregation.


THERE IS ONLY ONE MASTER - GOD - THERE IS NO CO-MASTER. THERE IS ONLY 1 ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY - GOD - THERE IS NO CO-AUTHORITY, THERE IS ONLY ONE OWNER, NO CO-OWNER - GOD - THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD, THERE IS NO CO-LORD, AND THERE IS ONLY ONE SUBMISSION, NO CO-SUBMISSION. ALL CHRISTIANS ARE EQUAL IN THIER SUBMISSION TO JESUS.


Matthew 23 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

AGAIN I CHALLENGE ALL THIEMITES


To all Thiemites:

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Again I challenge any Thiemite to show me the verse(s) and the greek exegesis that proves 1 pastor has sole authority over his own single congregation. No one has proven this. Yet Thieme claimed it regularly for decades. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so spiritually tragic. With all thier submission to Thieme, apparently, for decades, Thiemites never bothered to use thier own logic and greek exegesis to question Thieme's exegesis (cultic).

Truthtesty

2:15
[b:0823a3fdd7]Study to shew [u:0823a3fdd7]thyself approved unto God[/u:0823a3fdd7][/b:0823a3fdd7], a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It says study to show thyself [b:0823a3fdd7][u:0823a3fdd7]approved unto GOD[/u:0823a3fdd7][/b:0823a3fdd7], [u:0823a3fdd7][b:0823a3fdd7]NOT[/b:0823a3fdd7][/u:0823a3fdd7] approved by a pastor teacher and [u:0823a3fdd7][b:0823a3fdd7]NOT[/b:0823a3fdd7][/u:0823a3fdd7] approved by Thieme, [u:0823a3fdd7][b:0823a3fdd7]APPROVED UNTO GOD![/b:0823a3fdd7][/u:0823a3fdd7]

a workman that needs [u:0823a3fdd7][b:0823a3fdd7]not to be ashamed[/b:0823a3fdd7][/u:0823a3fdd7]

You do not need to be ashamed of your studies.

[bible1.crosswalk.com]

Truthtesty

[i:f8d8a4b16b]God will conceal doctrines and truth from those he considers swine (Matthew 7:6). He does not give truth, power and understanding to those who would trample these teachings.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

Now Galiban, my friend, is this really wise? You just tipped your hand in front of this entire forum. You’ve revealed the elitist, holier-than-thou, cultish mentality behind the whole “doctrinal” movement in a couple sentences. I suppose that all of us lowly “swine” should consider it a great privilege that one of the special, elite “winners” like yourself is even taking the time to talk to us. I could go a lot further with this, but I’ll go easy on you...after all, I once had the same mentality myself.

[i:f8d8a4b16b]Your inaccurate understandings that you have professed would have been corrected if you had been paying attention during those [b:f8d8a4b16b]daily [/b:f8d8a4b16b]lessons.

Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, Watching [b:f8d8a4b16b]daily [/b:f8d8a4b16b]at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

Before I get further into the “rebound” issue, I wish to clarify the use of the word “daily,” which you Thieme followers always make such a big issue out of. You claim that you are the only ones who believe in the “daily intake of Bible doctrine,” but nothing could be further from the truth. When the Bible instructs us to renew our minds and seek wisdom daily, it is not talking about listening to your “right pastor-teacher” daily. Contrary to Thieme’s teaching, early Christians did not attend church every single day. This is never mandated anywhere in the Bible, and it would have been a logistical impossibility for early Christians and most Christians throughout history. It would be difficult even in our modern age of motorized transportation, but it’s a near impossibility when all you have is a horse, a donkey, or your own two feet—especially if you have a family with young children. Yes, I know that the Lord taught daily in the Temple, but even He did not require all His followers to come hear Him every day. And yes, I know that in the book of Acts, more people were being added to the Church daily (i.e., unbelievers were being saved), but this does not mean that all Christians were required to attend church every day to hear their “right pastor-teacher.” The primary means for our “intake of Bible doctrine” is reading God’s Word on our own. Every Christian is accountable directly to God to search the Scriptures for himself (Acts 17:11, Rev 1:3), and take responsibility for his own convictions. Pastors can indeed be a great help to us, but they are a secondary source after our own Bible reading. And Bible reading is something that we can all do easily every day. I believe in studying God’s Word daily every bit as much as you do, Galiban. The difference between you and me is that I search the Scriptures for myself, rather than blindly believing everything the pastor tells me.

An obvious contradiction in the practice of so-called “doctrinal” pastors is that they say Christians should “learn Bible doctrine from their right pastor-teacher daily,” but they do not teach daily. They typically teach 3-5 days a week. The lame excuse they’ll use for this is that you can “listen to my tapes” or “read my books” on the off days. But where does that leave the thousands of pastors and congregations throughout history, and even in much of the world today, who have never had access to tape recorders? Are they required to literally teach every day, while “doctrinal” pastors in modern America get to take a few days off every week? Can you show me any churches from all of church history (whether before, during, or after the Reformation), that required the people to assemble daily? If you’re going to require Christians to learn daily from their “right pastor-teacher,” then put your money where your mouth is, and start teaching [i:f8d8a4b16b]daily[/i:f8d8a4b16b]. And don’t use modern technology as an excuse for not following your own dogma.

Having said that, let’s move on to the issue at hand:

[i:f8d8a4b16b]I will address only rebound in my post but the [b:f8d8a4b16b]background doctrines [/b:f8d8a4b16b]you are missing are listed below. This doctrine will be far [b:f8d8a4b16b]easier to understand [/b:f8d8a4b16b]and metabolize [b:f8d8a4b16b]if you study these doctrines closely[/b:f8d8a4b16b]. All scripture builds on scripture.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

So if I study and learn all these doctrines first, I’ll be able to understand “rebound”? But how am I supposed to study these doctrines if I don’t “rebound” first? I thought it was impossible to learn any Bible doctrine whatsoever, if you’re not “rebounding” [i:f8d8a4b16b]already?[/i:f8d8a4b16b] How can there be “background” doctrines to “rebound,” when “rebound” is the “foundation” of the whole spiritual life, and we need to know “rebound” before we can study any other doctrines?

[i:f8d8a4b16b][b:f8d8a4b16b]Biblical Bridging / “magical bridge” [/b:f8d8a4b16b]
If one verse in the Bible states that God is a Just God then the entirety of the Bible must be viewed in that one Function/Essence of God. If Paul in Romans 1:1 states that he has been set apart for the Gospel of God we know that this experiential circumstance (systematic result) has met with the function of the Just God (Mechanical Truth). Understanding this allows you to know how verses correlate throughout the Bible.

Under this principal, if we know that the Hebrews Chapters 5-10, 2Peter 2:4-9, (to name the most obvious ones), states we are under a new royal priesthood (Mechanical Truth) we must then come to understand the result of that truth and how to function in that truth. Rebound is only one portion of that systematic result.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

You have a habit of making statements that are very obviously true, but are not in any way relevant to the issue being discussed. Obviously every verse in the Bible is part of the mind and thinking of a just God, but that still doesn’t mean we can arbitrarily grab verses from all over the Bible and make them mean the same thing. Our holy, just God says in 1 Cor 12:13 that we are baptized by the Spirit, and the same holy, just God says through Paul to the early Church in 1 Cor 14:5 that it would be good for all of them to speak in tongues (a temporary gift, as we know). But obviously these two verses are talking about totally different subjects, and to combine them would be very dangerous. In fact, this would result in the emotionalist apostasy of the modern charismatic movement. This is just plain common sense, Galiban. You have to have some kind of logical scriptural reason for comparing these scriptures. They have to actually be [i:f8d8a4b16b]relevant[/i:f8d8a4b16b]. You can’t build a bridge between any two verses you please, without a legitimate scriptural reason. You like to throw around technical words like “systematic” and “mechanical,” as Thieme followers are prone to do, but all you’re doing is throwing up a smokescreen. You still have not demonstrated any connection between 1 John 1:9 and Eph 5:18, or any of the “rebound synonym” verses.

How’s this for common sense, Galiban... When we’re reading Eph 5:18, let’s look up other scriptures that talk about [u:f8d8a4b16b]spirituality[/u:f8d8a4b16b]. And when we’re reading 1 John 1:9, let’s look up other scriptures on [u:f8d8a4b16b]confession of sins[/u:f8d8a4b16b], [u:f8d8a4b16b]forgiveness of sins[/u:f8d8a4b16b], and [u:f8d8a4b16b]cleansing from unrighteousness[/u:f8d8a4b16b]. How’s that for “systematic”? On the other hand, there is nothing “systematic” about your whole approach—an arbitrary, haphazard method of trying to make the Bible teach your pet doctrine of “rebound.”

[i:f8d8a4b16b]Your “magical bridge” is rather a highway with many on and off ramps. This is a powerful understanding. All the bible correlates when you understand what each apostle is teaching based on what he learned from Jesus Christ. The epistles are an expansion of their understanding with the ministry of the Holy Spirit. They learned it all while studying under Jesus Christ.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

You are trying to use this “highway & ramp” idea to justify connecting any verse you want with any other verse you want, regardless of whether they are talking about the same doctrine or not. You want to be able to connect 1 John 1:9 and Eph 5:18 without being accountable to give us any kind of scriptural reasoning to support it. So let’s apply your arbitrary, haphazard highway system to a couple other verses. As an example, let’s use Romans 3:23 and Hebrews 12:1...

[b:f8d8a4b16b]Rom 3:23 [/b:f8d8a4b16b][i:f8d8a4b16b]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

[b:f8d8a4b16b]Heb 12:1[/b:f8d8a4b16b] [i:f8d8a4b16b]Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

Now let’s build one of your “highways” from Rom 3:23, with a “ramp” to Heb 12:1. Let’s connect these two verses the way you connect 1 John 1:9 and Eph 5:18. Now we can say that we have to “lay aside sins” and “run the race” in order to be saved from our sins. You see, Galiban, you have to have some kind of legitimate reason for connecting one scripture to another—a logical reason that you can actually defend from the Scriptures, rather than throwing around vague, high-sounding terminology like “systematic” and “mechanical.” Using your arbitrary “highway & ramp” system, we could make the Bible teach absolutely anything, including salvation by works. “Systematic,” indeed.

[i:f8d8a4b16b]Briefly I will describe how Mechanical Truth gives a systematic result.[/i:f8d8a4b16b]

So far, you’re a pretty poor “mechanic,” Galiban.

To Thiemites:

John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and [u:ed9294cd90][b:ed9294cd90]there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.[/b:ed9294cd90][/u:ed9294cd90]

This verse doesn't say that 1 pastor has sole authority over his own congregation. This verse says the Lord gathers his(Jesus owns them) sheep from wherever they are, so they will become 1 flock under Jesus. [u:ed9294cd90]One flock [/u:ed9294cd90]owned by God, under the authority of the of God.

Testy

To Thiemites:

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and [b:db88feeca8][u:db88feeca8]their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.[/u:db88feeca8][/b:db88feeca8]


Testy

I started to preach much to young and without adequate formal education and reached out for help. Thieme's tapes helped me ever so much and some things in his books hold eternal truth. He is bombastic and overbearing and absolutely doctrinarie. A good example hubris in full bloom. He helped me grow two churchs, finish college and graduate form a standard ATS seminary. He gave me love for the word of God and understand why it was important for me to get good preparation for ministry. In that respect he is very good.

Education teaches us to use caution and not to let any man have control over us even if the man looks and sounds good. C.I. Scofield had errors in his course and in his teachings but he still left us a wonderful legacy and the Colonel does the same. He leaves us with a thirst for knowing the word of God. I have read almost all his books and they are catchy and give some handles to helping others. Yes, I am a confessed revisionist as I have borrowed some terms and put my own thoughts with them, but God uses the end product.

Is he a cult? Probably not. As for tapers groups...beware of to much Greek and remember the Word of God is pretty streight forward in English.