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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: February 19, 2007 03:03AM


I assume your talking to me about being a false teacher. I am far from legalistic. Judgemental viewpoint? My viewpoint is I am sick and tired of christians murdering christians. I am sick and tired of the unhealthy falsehoods within christinaity. I could just as easily slap labels on you, but I am interested in intelligent conversation.

Does God only use people in a certain perfect christian "status"? Do you really think that God could not "use" a non-christian? Does God use Jews? Do you really think I could stop God in the slightest tiniest way? If a "non-christian" said watch out! there's a bus coming! Would you walk into the street anyhow? If your lost and you ask directions, do you ask a person for a christian identification card before following thier directions? Do you not think that God meets us in TOTAL REALITY? or just in an imaginary status?

I have had problems with my faith (it started at Berachah), I am not going to lie (I could have). What skeletons do you have in your closet? Are you honest with everyone about them? Or do you pretend? Do you fool yourself? Do you really think God cannot see through your pretending or your fooling?

TEST ME, BUT TEST THIEME TOO. THAT'S THE POINT. TEST DR. WALL. TEST ANYONE WHO SAYS THEY SPEAK THE WORD OF GOD. (Actually I never proclaimed to be a teacher or a christian authority)

What about Jim Jones? David Koresh? The BTK killer? BTK was a sado-masochistic serial murderer and a President of a christian CHURCH. The BTK killer committed murders as far back as the 1970's and wasn't caught until 2005. Was BTK false? The BTK Killer had a pulpit, if he had said all the right things would you have questioned him? If someone robbed a bank do you think that they would come out and telll you that they robbed a bank? What is your self-referential criteria for questioning ulterior motives?

Do you really think that Thieme was ever out of fellowship In 53 years? In 53 years did Thieme ever say 1 time "oops! whoa people I need a minute I was sinning about that lady in the front row"? How do you know that Thieme was not false? Either Thieme for 53 years was perfect or he wasn't. If Thieme was sinning, did you question what he said? How would you know? By the way if Thieme was perfect for 53 years I think one of the prophets would have picked up on that one. So my question is at what point do you question a "teacher"? At what point did you question Thieme? IN ALL THE YEARS THAT YOU ATTENDED BERACHAH. DID YOU EVER [u:c16faecf41]ONCE[/u:c16faecf41] QUESTION THIEME?, because if you didn't you should have. Thieme had a pulpit.

By the way Spiritual Liberty and you were making progress. Don't use me as an excuse to not talk to Liberty.

My true faith is between myself and God. I can bet you one thing though, people are seeing the warnings of truth in what I say without falsely equating my words with God's words.


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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: SpiritualLiberty ()
Date: February 20, 2007 10:04AM

Galiban the [b:d333c42c60]THEOLOGIAN [/b:d333c42c60]is quitting so easily? You get one rebuttal to your comments and run away? Since you’re the one who’s “in fellowship,” filled with the Spirit, and a “winner,” and I’m an evil “loser” headed straight for the sin unto death, shouldn’t you make a little more effort to refute my terrible deceptions? You say that you will pray that God guides us all to the truth, but you aren’t willing to do anything more to help us find the truth. You haven’t even tried, Galiban the theologian. You rattle off a few scriptures and statements that were practically straight out of “Rebound and Keep Moving,” and then you call it quits.

[i:d333c42c60]When a non Christian defends you, think twice about what you are teaching.[/i:d333c42c60]

The first tactic that many people resort to when their theology is challenged and they can’t defend it, is to attack the character of their opponents. Whatever Testy’s relationship with the Lord may be, it is irrelevant to our debate, Galiban. It doesn’t change the fact that you have no legitimate reason for attaching all those scriptures to 1 John 1:9. It doesn’t change the fact that you have pulled another explanation of foot washing out of thin air, when our Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave a completely different explanation. And on and on I could go.

[i:d333c42c60]I obviously misunderstood who you were. I thought you were a Christian looking for answers. Instead another false teacher that touts a seemingly convincing arguement that is [b:d333c42c60]not based upon doctrinal understanding [/b:d333c42c60]but on judgmental viewpoint and [b:d333c42c60]legalism[/b:d333c42c60].[/i:d333c42c60]

If you’re going to make the big, bold declaration that my argument is “not based upon doctrinal understanding,” then you need to back it up with Scripture, and show me where and why my rebuttals were wrong. You even make the claim that my argument is based on [i:d333c42c60]legalism[/i:d333c42c60]. Well, let’s compare our two viewpoints, Galiban:

• I believe that every Christian is in eternal, unbreakable fellowship with God through the Cross of Jesus Christ.
• You believe that we must constantly confess all our sins as much as we possibly can to keep recovering our lost fellowship and maintain our access to God.

• I believe that all our sins—past, present, and future—are forgiven through the Cross the moment we believe in Christ.
• You believe that we must constantly confess all our sins as much as we possibly can to keep getting forgiven.

• I believe that only Christians who have persisted in extreme rebellion and carnality for many years will die under the sin unto death, and that this is extremely rare.
• You believe, as a general principle, that all Christians who dare to reject “rebound” will die miserably under the sin unto death. According to your doctrine, untold millions of Christians are dying miserably under the sin unto death, no matter how humble, faithful, and loving they may have been.

• I believe that all Christians will have nothing but eager anticipation and great joy at the Lord’s return.
• You believe that born-again Christians (the vast majority of them, in fact) possessing the very righteousness of Christ will be shrinking in shame when He returns.

• I believe that all Christians, regardless of their weakness and failure in this life, will receive a glorious eternal inheritance, and that our Lord would never refer to any member of His Body as a “loser.”
• You believe that the vast majority of Christians will forfeit their eternal inheritance and be labeled “losers” for all eternity.

• I believe that all Christians, because they have the Holy Spirit in them, have equal right to search the Scriptures for themselves and hold their own convictions before God.
• You believe (if you follow the consistent teaching of Thieme and the so-called “doctrinal” movement) that common Christians are helplessly dependent on the pastor to teach them the Bible, and that severe discipline awaits them if they dare to depart from their “right pastor-teacher.”

Now honestly, Galiban, which viewpoint is “legalistic”?

Believe it or not, I understand you quite well, Galiban. I was once very much like you. I was intensely devoted to Thieme’s doctrines, especially “rebound.” It felt so good at first to think that I was one of the privileged few who could be filled with the Spirit, and the rest of Christianity didn’t have it. I even made similar comments about other Christians who disagreed with my doctrine. In practice, I basically equated loyalty to Thieme and my “right pastor-teacher” with loyalty to Jesus Christ. I know you believe that you have to defend Thieme to defend the truth, but you do not. You may have the best of intentions, but the fact remains that there are theological questions that you cannot answer. Everything in your post on rebound was straight from Thieme’s own statements and vocabulary, which is often reiterated nearly verbatim by other so-called “doctrinal” pastors. There was not one of your [i:d333c42c60]own [/i:d333c42c60]thoughts in your dissertation, Galiban. Remember, I was a completely devoted Thieme follower, with a very prominent position in a large Thiemite church for many years. I know the doctrinal system inside out. And there was not one statement of yours that I had not heard a thousand times already.

Remember my comment from my 02/15 post: “I’ve noticed that so far, none of you have even touched the issue of Thieme denying the forgiveness of all sins through the Cross.” I am sure you have a desire for truth and a desire to serve the Lord, Galiban, but I would ask you to be careful about stubbornly defending a man who denies a fundamental truth of the Christian faith. I am straightforward and uncompromising in my defense of my beliefs, and I also like to make use of moderate sarcasm to make my points, but I still recognize you as a brother in the Lord, and I would not deny your love for Jesus Christ. Beware, however, that you do not become more dedicated to defending a man than defending the Cross of Christ.

Your brother in Christ,

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Galiban ()
Date: February 23, 2007 10:16AM

Hello Spiritual Liberty,
I have prayed about my response and realize that it was premature. Through the filling of the Spirit and my fellowship with God, he has instructed me to address these fallible doctrines you tout. I have serious doubts about your objectivity but it is God's will that even the fallen be evangelized. This is not only for you but also for readers that will no doubt find this website.
I consider myself rebuked. On to the doctrine!
You state that you have studied for years under Pastor Robert McLaughlin however; your inaccurate understandings that you have professed would have been corrected if you had been paying attention during those daily lessons.
He has stated for years to metabolize then apply the doctrines you have learned. You have failed to do so. I will address only rebound in my post but the background doctrines you are missing are listed below. This doctrine will be far easier to understand and metabolize if you study these doctrines closely. All scripture builds on scripture.

Below I will list many doctrines that will give any future reader and yourself a great background to understanding systematic theology.

God will conceal doctrines and truth from those he considers swine (Matthew 7:6). He does not give truth, power and understanding to those who would trample these teachings.
Thus God either conceals or reveals depending on whether one is open (subjective or objective) to hearing what the Bible teaches. (Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:9-10, Matt 13-9-15, Isaiah 6-9-10, Numbers 12:6-8, Deut 4-11) We must discern the truth with study. (Proverbs 8:17)
I do not study directly under Thieme as I have stated before, but all of Thieme’s doctrinal teachings that I have studied has proven true with in depth study of the scriptural backing. I study many doctrinal viewpoints from many different teachers (have studied and will continue to study) and search diligently to discern the truth of a teaching.
Realize, I was not opening a dialog with you for your opinion. Merely giving you the scriptural background on the doctrines you questioned from Thieme. Your rebuttal was lacking in the objective study of those theological principles and the application of those principles in real circumstances. So, again, I have posted these doctrines below for your objective study:

Doctrine of Throne of Judgment:

Doctrine of Eternal Security and Salvation.

Doctrine of Experiential, Positional and Ultimate sanctification:

Doctrine of Reversionism:

I prefer to refrain from stating opinion as that just bogs down a study with useless chatter. I prefer to exegete, contextually discern and then render a scriptural accurate accounting of a biblical principle. That should be all that need be relayed. Anything else will again slow down a study. I only have 30-40 years left on earth!

[b:9df6fcef9a]Biblical Bridging / “magical bridge”[/b:9df6fcef9a]
Briefly I will describe how Mechanical Truth gives a systematic result.
If one verse in the Bible states that God is a Just God then the entirety of the Bible must be viewed in that one Function/Essence of God. If Paul in Romans 1:1 states that he has been set apart for the Gospel of God we know that this experiential circumstance (systematic result) has met with the function of the Just God (Mechanical Truth). Understanding this allows you to know how verses correlate throughout the Bible.

Under this principal, if we know that the Hebrews Chapters 5-10, 2Peter 2:4-9, (to name the most obvious ones), states we are under a new royal priesthood (Mechanical Truth) we must then come to understand the result of that truth and how to function in that truth. Rebound is only one portion of that systematic result.

[b:9df6fcef9a]Understanding context.[/b:9df6fcef9a]
This link is great. Chapter VII gives a great understanding of the Darkness as it is used in the bible. Darkness refers to lack of understanding and anti-doctrine rather than salvation or damnation. []
Though I do realize by default, that if you lack in salvation you are in the darkness.
1 Thessalonians Chapter 5: 1-11 really clearly states that he is warning the “Brethren” (fellow believers) to stay out of the darkness and not fall asleep. You need to put on the breastplate of Faith (study of doctrine, remember Faith is not believing in something we do not understand but that which we have studied and come to know) to stay sober and alert; the opposition force of sleeping/darkness in the previous verse of chapter 5.

Context of 1John Chapter 1 – This is entirely to the church. The context is fellowship of the believer with God. This is not speaking to those who lack salvation. A person who is not saved is not going to concern himself/herself with maintaining fellowship with God. 1John 1:6 states a person says he has fellowship. An unbeliever is not going to care one iota about whether in fellowship or not.
Conversely, 1 John 2 states “My little Children” certainly not unbelievers are his students? Then proceeds to state that he hopes they will not sin but when they do they have an advocate in Christ before the father!
Clearly more study is needed by you to discern the context of 1John and to whom John is speaking.
Context of Ephesians 5 is avoiding the operation of the sin nature and fulfilling God’s will. The “magical bridge” is scriptural understanding. Ephesians 5 tells us how we grieve the spirit. 1John Chapter 1 tells us how to regain that fellowship.
1John Chapter 1 is the extension of understanding that God desires fellowship with us. That is why he created us. Your “magical bridge” is rather a highway with many on and off ramps. This is a powerful understanding. All the bible correlates when you understand what each apostle is teaching based on what he learned from Jesus Christ. The epistles are an expansion of their understanding with the ministry of the Holy Spirit. They learned it all while studying under Jesus Christ.

[b:9df6fcef9a]Doctrine of rebound and maintaining fellowship[/b:9df6fcef9a]
This is a more in depth follow up to address some of the inaccurate understandings you have.
Lets look at Old Testament confession of sin.
The Levitical priesthood in the Old Testament was a habitual and continual confession of sin. Leviticus 5:6-10
Now when you sinned you needed to go see a Priest and present the sin offering for your sin and then the Priest would make atonement for you. Why was this not done once? Why every-time they visited the priest? The answer is Hebrews 10:1-3

At this point your belief would come in that now we have the “Completed work of the Cross” This is not an inaccurate doctrine. We were completely forgiven for our sins. True! We will never be judged for those sins. True! The confession of sins does not in anyway affect our salvation. True! We will only be judged for our works/deeds at the judgement. Not sins. Only one sin, that is unbelief, can stop you from entering heaven.
That is positional truth!
To further explain this; we were positionally forgiven our sins at salvation, we are experientially forgiven our sins as we confess them inside the function of our Royal Priesthood/Universal Priesthood, and we are ultimately forgiven all sins in the eternal state.
However, your sins must be continuously recognized by you, you must be experientially sanctified and you must be cleansed from those sins. I point back to the “foot washing”.
As an aside to address positional sanctification (John 13:14-15). We are to deal with all others on the basis of their position in Christ. Not according to the sins they have or are committing. When we do this we understand that Jesus has washed their feet and they are now positionally cleansed from their sins. Though this is not in their realm of experience (Experiential) in that they are currently operating in their sins. God has positionally forgiven them for all their sins and evil at the cross. It is done. Complete. We are to operate in that forgiveness when we deal with all others. Never should be deal with others according to their sins.

Now at this point you must study the doctrine of Royal Priesthood/Universal Priesthood in the New Testament.

The Priesthood of the Levites has changed. God is the High Priest of the Royal Priesthood. We are now Royal Priests as taught by Peter. (1Peter 2:4-12)
We directly represent ourselves before God. (Hebrews 10:19)

Hebrews gives a great understanding here of the consistent practice of the Old Testament and the reason for the Old Testament sacrifice for sins. He also explains the reason for the cessation of the sacrifice and the new living way we should operate in our priesthood.

[b:9df6fcef9a]Hebrews Chapter 10 Breakdown[/b:9df6fcef9a]
(Hebrews 10:1-3.) The writer explains that the confession of sins was a continual reminder and that confession was for the perfection/maturity of the worshiper. It was the constant reminder. This was but a shadow of the things to come. Though we have given up the sacrifice. The constant confession would persist for the perfection of the believer.
Again here is your “magical bridge” or as I prefer a highway.
The writer understood in 10:4 that though the confession was the reminder, the actual sacrifice did nothing to forgive sins. It was only a shadow of the good to come.
Hebrews 10:5-9 is a quotation of the new covenant and 10:9 states that the Old has been done away with and the New has been established. The Levitical has ended but the Universal has begun. There is a new mode of operation. Which will involve spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)
10:10 we are now Positionally sanctified. Again study positional vs. experiential.
10:11 Despite the Levites continuing in their office it does nothing for the “Church age believer”. Though realize this was a daily function they performed.
10:12 The work of the Cross is complete and Jesus has taken his seat. Not to be
Re-sacrificed again.
10:13 He is now waiting for the “tactical victory” as he has completed the “strategic victory” in verse 12.
10:14 States that all the sanctified believers are perfected/mature for all time. Now we realize this is positional not experiential. This is clearly relayed in that we did not know as much about the bible yesterday as we do today. We will continue to grow to perfection. That is experiential sanctification. But positionally we are perfected; we can never lose that position that Christ has secured for us.
10:15-16 shows that we will be able to accomplish the law in a way that no Old Testament believer ever will. We now have the power in the new covenant to accomplish the Law. This is what the Holy Spirit will do for us. The will of the Father, the Gospel of Jesus, the filling of the Holy Spirit.
10:17 God will not deal with you according to your sins. No one is dealt with, as they deserve. We do not need to make a payment. After all, if we paid the debt it would be eternal damnation. If we are operating in the flesh by experience we will not be punished for those sins but we will be “corrected” by God if we neglect our fellowship with him. It is not necessarily direct punishment from him. He has written natural laws to govern this.
(Galatians 6:7-8, Proverbs 1:31, Job 4:8)
10:18 No longer is an offering needed now that forgiveness for the sins we commit is complete.
10:19 Notice Brothers and sisters. This is to believers! We can operate as the High Priest did. We have the ability to enter the Holy of Holies by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Not for sacrifice but for fellowship!
10:20 this verse states in a new and living way. This is the “rebound” which is discussed. We have a new way to have fellowship with the Shakinah glory that dwells inside of us. (That is where God resided in the Holy of Holies.) We can now approach God in this new and living way. This is stated in the present tense and should be a continual action. This is the disclosed description from God. The curtain that is still in front of the Jews is open to us. Hebrews is tying into the understanding of the “Mechanical Truth” of our Royal Priesthood. He is describing why and how by the “Systematic Result”.
10:21 Jesus is now over the House of God. This is an allusion to all the writer has stated about the Order of Melchizedek in the previous chapters.
10:22 here is the expansion on the point. We can be assured with a sincere heart to have that fellowship (entering the Holy of Holies) BECAUSE we have had our minds (Kardia which is translated Hearts in KJV) sprinkled clean (rebound) from an evil conscience (sin nature/operating in the flesh.) and our bodies are washed clean with pure water (that is salvation). Notice the conjunctive “and” in this verse. There is the sprinkling AND washing. The washing represents salvation and the sprinkling represents rebound. The understanding of the terminology of sprinkling is in the results of the sprinkling. “hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience”. Our minds are renewed/cleansed from that evil. This ties Ephesians with Hebrews, John with Hebrews, and John 1 with Hebrews. That “magical bridge” is the “Mechanical Truth” of doctrine with the “Systematic Results” as described with the understanding of each apostle.

I do realize I Have “dumbed” down years of theological study and a lot of terminology is unfamiliar. I cannot relay years of doctrinal study in just a post on a forum. However, I am hoping that all who read this will increase their devotion to God and study the truth of these doctrines.
God desires you to be Holy (devoted) that devotion has a price of your heart, mind, soul and strength!
(Deut 4:29, Jeremiah 29:13, Mark 12:30, Proverbs 8:17)
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, Watching [b:9df6fcef9a]daily[/b:9df6fcef9a] at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: HappyAndFree ()
Date: February 25, 2007 12:40AM

God will conceal doctrines and truth from those he considers swine (Matthew 7:6). He does not give truth, power and understanding to those who would trample these teachings.
Thus God either conceals or reveals depending on whether one is open (subjective or objective) to hearing what the Bible teaches. (Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:9-10, Matt 13-9-15, Isaiah 6-9-10, Numbers 12:6-8, Deut 4-11) We must discern the truth with study. (Proverbs 8:17)

Matthew 7:6-- So you do read the gospels. You've actually read the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. Amazing.

Only here, you are out of context. Jesus is not saying anything about "God" concealing doctrines or truth from "swine". He states very clearly that "WE", "Humans" should not give dogs what is sacred or throw pearls to pigs. If "WE" do so, these sacred things will be trampled under their feet, then the dogs or pigs will turn and tear you to pieces.

In the very next verse, Jesus continues by encouraging people to "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For EVERYONE who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

How dare you make our God out to look like an intellectual snob who only reveals to the "chosen few".

As for Mark 4:9 and the other corresponding gospel accounts of this remark made by Jesus-along with the reference to the remark in Isaiah-

Back up and look at the entire picture. He's explaining why he speaks in parables. PARABLES would not be understood by those on the "outside" to fullfill the prophesy from Isaiah.

Looking at the particular case-in-point, the parable of the sower, God reveals to me Thieme's ministry "is like seed falling among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain." I grew up there, my family is still there. The plants [i:82f5423212]are[/i:82f5423212] choked by the weeds.

[b:82f5423212]The worries of this life-- [/b:82f5423212]Thieme's ministry is heavy into the worries of this life, political issues and human power struggles that are insignificant in the Kingdom of God.

[b:82f5423212]deceitfulness of wealth and desires for other things[/b:82f5423212]-- maybe not financial wealth, but certainly narcisistic desires to be superior to other Christians, the belief they understand more fully--after all, they study under the "best". They are "wise and learned". People under Thieme's ministry seem to think they have the market on "truth".

However, In Matthew 11:25, Jesus prays to the Father "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

I'd rather be like a little child listening to the words of Jesus than a wise and learned biblical scholar learning from the greek and hebrew. It's the Holy Spirit that translates anyway, not the pastor.

Paul says in I Cor 1:26-31, "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influencial; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

So go ahead and study your doctrines according to Bob Thieme. Get wiser and more learned. And boast to your heart's content about your spiritual superiority.

I, however, will sit at the feet of Jesus and listen to Him. I'm not referring to the militaristic Jesus that Bob Thieme depicts--you know, the one that kind of resembles Bob Thieme in his younger days in the artwork rendered by a church member. I'm talking about the Jesus who said "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"

Go ahead, study your doctrines. But you'll never convince me that Thieme's teachings are worthy.

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: February 25, 2007 03:42AM

Per Galiban and Thieme

Thus God either conceals or reveals depending on whether one is open (subjective or objective)

I have a whole lot to say about this, but for now, even if the Galiban's stated arguement is assumed, Thieme's view of "objectivity" is skewed.

If you look at the definition of objective (Merriam-Webster) []

3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, [u:c419cbae2d][b:c419cbae2d]prejudices[/u:c419cbae2d][/b:c419cbae2d], or interpretations[/color:c419cbae2d]

I don't think there is a Thiemite that exists, or even Thieme or his son would try to say that Thieme was not prejudiced. Thieme was extremely [b:c419cbae2d][u:c419cbae2d]prejudiced[/u:c419cbae2d][/b:c419cbae2d]. That evidence is taperecorded.

Predjudiced = Subjective (bell ring) therefore, in Thieme's own arguement, Thieme is logically included as being subjective (bell ring) therefore, in Thieme's own arguement, Thieme must be categorized as "swine" (bell ring). Also, in Thieme's own arguement, God would not reveal to Thieme (bell ring).

I'd also like to point out that expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as [u:c419cbae2d]perceived without distortion by[/u:c419cbae2d] personal feelings[/color:c419cbae2d]

Notice being "objective" does not necessitate attacking and invalidating "feelings" like an aggressive rabid pit bull, as Thieme does. You can have feelings you just don't let them distort the truth.

One more thing, notice Galiban's questionable reference to "special superior knowledge"

I do realize I Have “dumbed” down years of theological study and a lot of terminology is unfamiliar. I cannot relay years of doctrinal study in just a post on a forum.

Do not let anyone get away with this. Make them prove specifically and exactly don't let them claim generalized "superior knowledge". Do not give them credit until they prove and then maybe. Even if they can supply evidence of vast knowldge do your own fact checking.

This forum is a court of truth and Galiban's implied statement is not evidence of "special knowledge".


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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: February 26, 2007 12:38AM

If Thieme cannot be trusted to [u:24571b2039]explain fully[/u:24571b2039] the word OBJECTIVE [u:24571b2039]in English[/u:24571b2039], then he should [u:24571b2039]NOT be trusted to explain fully[/u:24571b2039] foreign words in another language.


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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: HappyAndFree ()
Date: February 26, 2007 01:55AM

Faith (study of doctrine, remember Faith is not believing in something we do not understand but that which we have studied and come to know)

Galiban, here you prove that you have chewed up and swallowed a misguided scriptural interpretation made by RB Thieme JR. And you're now trying to feed this to others.

Scripture does not teach that faith is as you wrote "believing in something we have studied and come to know"

Faith is, according to Heb 11:1 "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for" References to the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham follow.

Thieme is basing that definition on the verse, Romans 10:17, "consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ"

Thieme was skilled and studying trees, but he somehow missed the forest. In context the author (perhaps Paul) is discussing his desire for the Israelites to be saved, but they (the Jews) were zealously adhering to "the law". He reminds the reader that Christ is the end of the law, so there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Then into the mechanics of believing...someone preaches, listener hears, listener either accepts or rejects what they hear. The zealots had "heard" what Jesus taught (the word of Christ) and did not accept it. The chapter concludes with the referenced passage "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people".

So faith "comes" from hearing (not necessarily from in-depth study of something, just from hearing). Abraham "heard" God tell him that Sarah would have a child although she was passed child-bearing age. He didn't launch a bible study on "the doctrine of birth after childbearing years". He simply believed that this miraculous thing would happen.

That is FAITH. It "COMES" from hearing, but it "IS" being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I believe the passage still holds true "Christ is the end of the law, so there may be righteousness for everyone who believes". Christ fulfilled the law.
According to this, even Christians who don't study under RB Thieme Jr or a Thieme clone are righteous. Even Christians who DO study under RB Thieme Jr or a Thieme clone are righteous.

Many of us Christians here, including myself, have chewed up and swallowed Thieme's interpretations of scripture, later to vomit them back up. Personally, I have developed a greater appreciation for the cuisine of Jesus' teachings--no preservative, no additives...holy organic, one might say.

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Galiban ()
Date: February 26, 2007 10:21PM

Hello Happy and Free, to address 02-24-2007 09:40 AM
I gather you are a Gospels only/Gospels have a higher authority believer from:

Matthew 7:6-- So you do read the gospels. You've actually read the words of Jesus, God in the flesh. Amazing.
To speak to you with the Word, I must address the Issue of Jesus Only/Gospels only. In the Gospels from the Word of Jesus, He sends out his disciples in pairs into the towns telling them of Jesus. In Luke 10:16 he states that those who reject His messengers reject Him. I warn you to not discount the Epistles. Read Paul’s understanding in 1 Thessalonians 2:13. Realize that Jesus knew there would be those of you with such concerns and he addressed those concerns in his Word. (Heb 4:12, 2 Tim 3:13, John 1:1)

Here are some verses to describe the God of the Bible, not the “whitewashed” God you have declared. I realize you are being subjective as you quoted me and I stated:

Thus God either conceals or reveals depending on whether one is open (subjective or objective) to hearing what the Bible teaches. (Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:9-10, Matt 13-9-15, Isaiah 6-9-10, Numbers 12:6-8, Deut 4-11) We must discern the truth with study. (Proverbs 8:17)

You have stated I do not understand the context. I will bring about the scriptural context for the verses you are concerned about. God does bring a famine of doctrine (truth) from those who search for it, and he hides doctrine (truth) from those who desire it. (Amos 8:11-14) You are given a set time to listen to the Lord. If you constantly reject Him or his truth he will not continue to offer it to you. This is the context or Mechanical Truth.
To fully understand God will always have doctrine available to those who wish to learn it.
As an aside - The knocking means you are OBJECTIVELY searching for the truth. That is the context. The verses below will hopefully open your eyes to this. They will fail to if you are not objective however….

Let me give some background verses on how God deals with subjective persons.
BTW this is a subjective statement from you….. :


Go ahead study your doctrines. But you'll never convince me that Thieme's teachings are worthy.

So on to the background.
Lamentations 3:65 The imprecatory prayer from Jeremiah asks God to place his veil over the hearts of his enemies. This is hiding the truth of Doctrine as we will see. A [i:7b3312a2ed]hapax legomenon[/i:7b3312a2ed] (This word is used only once in the Bible) is used here. It means veil or covering. To have that veil is to have God’s curse which is paralleled in that same sentence.

Ezekiel Chapter 13 is great. Here God is having Ezekiel prophesy against false prophets.
Verse 2 declares that they are speaking from their imagination.
Verse 6 states that the false prophets claim to speak for the Lord, and actually EXPECT God to confirm their information!! They think they are speaking for God! They are dreaming up what they want to believe about God and touting that as the Truth from Him.
Verses 8-9 states due to their false declarations and teachings that God himself is against them!!!! This is important for you to realize this facet of the character and nature of God.
Verses 10 These false teachers build walls (concepts of Doctrine supposedly from God) which have no mortar (the actual power and substance of the Truth of God) and to hide this fact they whitewash it to make it look pretty (that which is appealing, in other words, telling people what they want to hear.)
Verses 11-13 Notice that God will bring these tragedies, adversities, and hard times in your life to batter down these walls. When those walls are torn down people will go to the false teachers and ask “Where are the appealing and pretty things? Those things I enjoyed have no substance!” Teaching that God does not hide his truth from anyone is whitewashing. You are trying to make God into something pretty that you would like to see in a God. God will not share his pearls with those who act as swine. But he will share, with an overflowing cup, the truth with those who love him. Like now, I am being led to share these teachings with you from God. You have a choice to listen or reject. You will place the veil or remove it by your subjectivity. That is the function/systematic result of God’s curse.
Verses 14-16 These false doctrines will not withstand the tough times, the tragedies and adversities of life. God will tear down their false teachings with tragedies and destruction and those who tout them will be crushed with them.
Verses 17-19 Here women are running around to prophesy and God takes particular note of these. They put the people of Isreal in slavery and put a veil over their minds. FALSE teaching will make you subjective and you will not be able to understand when you hear an accurate ministration from God.
Verses 20-23 Great here! Not only the unsaved but the righteous listen to false doctrines and are turned from God. Notice that God allows this to happen. But the opportunity for the righteous to turn back to God is in 10-16. These can hear the true doctrines from God and turn back toward the Truth.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16
First realize in verse 12 when we have this Glory we [b:7b3312a2ed][u:7b3312a2ed]behave with Great Boldness![/u:7b3312a2ed][/b:7b3312a2ed]I realize many of you think I speak with arrogance. More’s the pity. I have confidence in my knowledge of God. You tout this as arrogance with pithy quotes and attacks. But when you know the truth it is unshakable and you will [b:7b3312a2ed][u:7b3312a2ed]behave with Great Boldness[/u:7b3312a2ed].[/b:7b3312a2ed]
Verses 14-16 Realize there is a veil over the Jews eyes whenever they read the Tanach! In Christ this veil is removed and all understanding is now available. To understand the function of this statement let me ask a question....Why do so many Christians believe so many different things? The answer falls into the fact that believers must use the word of God to discern his Will. They must study every Word that proceeds out of His mouth. (Mathew 4:4) Then they must objectively apply the Word they learn. (James 1:22-25) Most Christians decide what they believe God should be, then find verses to back that up. Once you turn to the Lord you will have that veil removed. That veil which God placed on you and which your subjectivity holds there.
The word ἐπιστρέφω is used for turn. This word has the definition of – to revert, turn again, come again, convert, and return. It’s a constant lifestyle here. You must operate in the truth of Christ.
Clearly God does hide from those who are subjective. Parables are meant to be studied and understood through that study. You may understand the one he explained but do you understand them all? Why not? (Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:9-10, Matt 13-9-15, Isaiah 6-9-10, Numbers 12:6-8, Deut 4-11)

The factor that allows this is each persons volition. They choose to accept Christ. One must accept the Gospels and their teachings. Whether you wish to believe God would hide his word or not. God called those that would trample his Word a Swine or Dog. Not me. The Swine and the Dog refers to a subjective hearer of the Word. Ezekiel clearly states that the righteous can become blinded by lies and false doctrines. 2 Corinthians speaks to constantly turning to God for that wisdom. (2 Corinthians 3:12-16, Ezekiel 13-1-23, Lamentations3:65 )

As far as your family:
You are subjectively viewing the people in your life that are trying to apply the doctrines they are learning. Realize people fail in executing the Word of God. People hear the word but do not do it. Be an effectual doer not a forgetful listener is a command from God. So people will fail to fulfill it J (James 1:22-25)
Take all the Old Testament saints. Abraham spent 40 years where God did not want him. He has extra marital sex with his wife’s slave (at his own wife’s direction!) He turned his wife over to Kings…twice!! Samson liked “Loose” women. David murdered Uriah, raped his wife, he killed 100.000’s of thousands of people to cover up his sins and due to his sins. God stated that David was after His own Heart!! By viewing these people’s lives you would assume they were failures and would be kicked out of most churches today. Realize we all fail to execute the word of God on a daily basis. The righteous man falls seven times a day to then rise again 8 times (A rebound verse btw). Proverbs 24:16.
You are coming from a subjective place if you judge the truth of what people hear by their sins or overt actions. Evaluate the message not the Man. The Message will validate the man. Workout your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12-13) If you focus on the sins and overt actions of others in your families or churches you will wind up a reversionist like Spiritual Liberty. You will find sinners in every church. They are there because they recognize they are a sinner and they need a Savior Keep focused on the Bible Doctrine. Not what others are doing with that Doctrine. (James 1:22-25)

James 1:6-8, 4:2-4 will answer why Everyone does not receive when they ask. Again Jesus was speaking to objective hearers and doers of the word. (Matthew 7:7) If you ask with motivations of the Flesh and subjectively pray you will no receive. This is a Mechanical truth with a systematic result. In verse 8 God states that the Father will give you good gifts. Conversely, he will not give you bad gifts that harm you or that you can’t handle.

1 Corinthians 3:2 (rebound verse btw) explains when you come to God as a child you can only handle milk. You are charged to grow in the grace and knowledge of God (2Pet 3:18) so that you can consume the meat that God has to offer. Jesus was speaking of your humility not your doctrinal intake in Matthew 11:25. A child has absolute trust in the parent. That is how you are to approach with that humility as a Child to the parent. When it comes to taking in Doctrine you are to take in meat not just the milk that is offered to “babes in Christ.” You are required to grow to adulthood. If this is wrong why did Jesus tell Peter to teach the 3 different levels of spiritual believers in a church differently? Feed my lambs (the young)/Shepard (clobber) my Sheep (sophomores)/Feed my Sheep (Mature believer). John (21:15-17)

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Galiban ()
Date: February 27, 2007 01:02AM

Hello Happy and Free, to address Posted: 02-25-2007 10:55 AM

A couple of verses should help you in realizing our faith comes from what we have learned not from just blind suppositions and worldly machinations.

Lets start with 1 Corinthians 2:10-16
Verse 10 God reveals himself and his teaching by the Spirit.
Verse 11 We cannot know the things of God without the aid of the Spirit.
Verse 12 We have received the Spirit to learn about the things God has given us.
Verse 13 Notice these things are relayed to us with teachings and words.
Verse 14 These things are spiritually “discerned”. This is a study. Lets look at the word used here.
Quoted from Strong’s Concordance.
ἀνακρίνω anakrinō an-ak-ree'-no G350
From G303 and G2919; properly to scrutinize, that is, (by implication) investigate, interrogate, determine: - ask, question, discern, examine, judge, search.

Here is the definition of the English word discern.

This is absolutely clear. Discernment is a study done through the spirit.

Verse 15-16 shows the ramifications, those who have this discernment are not understood by those who are not spiritual. Verse 16 explains that we have the mind of Christ when we have this discernment. This is Biblical fact. Not elitism. We are not better because we posses this. After all to boast about something that is given to us by God is foolishness.

2 Corinthians 1:13-14
Verse 13 Paul explains that what is written is to be understood and can be understood. However, he hopes that his readers will understand completely. This has an implied negative. You can actually read what is written and easy to understand and not understand completely. As well, you have to read the teachings before you can understand. 1 Corinthians talks about understanding is a spiritual matter not a wordly one. Without the Spirit you will not understand what you are reading. And with that you must anakreeno.

Ephesians 1:8
God lavished wisdom and insight on us. How did he do this? Were we given this at the moment of salvation? Of course not, it came through reading the scriptures and coming to understand them through the Spirit. As a side note -If you read on he address’s the mystery doctrine.

Ephesians 3:4
Great verse here. In reading what he wrote you gain the insight into the mystery of Christ. First reading is a must though this can be done through hearing. Second you must do it objectively and discern what he is saying through the criteria given in 1 Corinthians.

Ephesians 4:18
This verse goes into the fact that if you harden your heart as a Gentile does (meaning you are a believer that does this) then you will not be able to have that understanding. You can place that veil on yourself. If you think as the world thinks then you will not be able to think with the Spirit. Again that Mind of Christ in you.

Ephesians 5:18
You are commanded not to be foolish but to know the Lord’s will. I think I have clearly relayed above how to discern his will.

Colossians 1:9
The prayer is for God to fill the church here with knowledge of His Will!!! The verse states how you get this!! Through Spiritual wisdom and understanding!!!

Colossians 2:2
God desires for one to come to the full riches of complete understanding in order that we can know the mystery!!!

Ephesians 3:14-19
You can come to comprehend the length, breadth, heighth, and width of God. This is to know who and what God really is…. In all his glory! When you come to know the Glory that is our God, understanding his character and nature you will be in awe of Him. This is portrayed by example in these verses.
Verse 16 states you must be strengthened with power(bible scriptures) through the Spirit of God in your inner man/new man, and that is according to the wealth of his glory(full riches).
Verse 17-18 now faith, with the foundation of Love, dwells in your mind (is this something abstract? No its that power source) so that you can [u:1fa42984f0][b:1fa42984f0]comprehend[/b:1fa42984f0][/u:1fa42984f0] what is the character and nature of God.
Verse 19 when you have this you can [u:1fa42984f0][b:1fa42984f0]know[/b:1fa42984f0][/u:1fa42984f0] the Love of Christ that surpasses knowledge (Gnossis becomes epignossis). Gnossis is knowledge. Epignossis is a knowledge that is spiritual.

A breakdown –
Having the full riches of complete understanding comes through scrutinizing the scriptures under the power of the Holy Spirit. You can actually darken your understanding by hardening your heart(this is how bible relays objectivity.). You can actually only have partial understanding through lack of diligence in using the system prescribed by the Bible.
You can be a Christian who does not have any understanding or only partial understanding. But when you have full understanding you are understood by no one that does not have that same spiritual understanding.

In all of this we understand who and what God is. We come to know his Will for our lives and have the Mind of Christ within us. This is not something done on what we do not see as in Hebrews 11:1. The unseen referred to is the physical manifestation (or outcome of a situation) of our Lord and God. In John’s Gospel Chapter 20 Thomas will not believe in what Jesus has [b:1fa42984f0]taught[/b:1fa42984f0], unless he sees the resurrected body of Jesus. In verse 29 Jesus states that those who believe in the teachings and doctrines without seeing the physical manifestation of Jesus will be blessed. That is what the writer of Hebrews is relaying in faith. These Old Testament saints were separated from God but believed in what he said would come true.

That faith is not blind obedience. Other religions posses blind obedience because their teachings have no substance, spirit or truth. Our faith is a confidence in what we know and in what God has revealed in these scriptures. We are instructed to study, to seek, to knock, to find! That is where THE FAITH that withstands the adversities and trials comes from.

By Faith Abel knew what to offer to God. He knew that God desired a blood sacrifice not a sacrifice of works which is what the grain represented. This faith came from knowledge of what God wanted.

Another example is Abraham. In Genesis 22:7-8 Isaac asks Abraham where the Lamb was for the offering. Abraham stated that God will provide for himself a Lamb! Abraham knew he was not going to sacrifice Isaac, because of God’s promises that through Isaac nations would be built. Promises were revealed to Old Testament saints through interaction from God and the Holy Spirit. The promises were the faith that these saints relied on. Hebrews does not talk about a blind faith. This was a faith with epignossis knowledge! Though they did not see the outcome or the result (unseen) they [b:1fa42984f0]knew[/b:1fa42984f0] the character and nature of God and had faith in Him and his promises. This knowledge came from years of failures and the guidance of God. They did not always have that faith. Abraham applied the truth he understood about the character and nature of God to the command of God.

Hebrews 11:13 states that these promises they believed in were not seen in the present but seen as a future occurrence (a promise if you will). Belief in the promises was reckoned to them as righteousness. Faith is something we know and understand, not something that is an insubstantial vapor or belief.

In final I give you a warning…
Jude 1:10 Yet these men speak [u:1fa42984f0][b:1fa42984f0]abusively[/b:1fa42984f0][/u:1fa42984f0] against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

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R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: HappyAndFree ()
Date: February 27, 2007 02:34AM


I am not a "Gospels only" or "Gospels have a higher authority" believer. But come on, if the words come straight from the mouth of God-in-the-flesh, there's something to them.

And I'm with Truthtesty on your understanding of objectivity. You're not getting it! I have tested Thieme's teachings and find too many of them false. Therefore, I will not be convinced by you, or any other Thiemeite, that he is a worthy teacher of scripture. He's ok on some things, but he's way too wrong about other things.

Every reference you have given with regard to "God concealing the truth" from some can be applied to Thiemites.

Thieme is a false prophet speaking from his imagination, because of this, God is against him, Thieme built walls that had no mortar, but he whitewashed them to make them neat and pretty, but when they fall down, his students wonder, 'what happened to the walls????, they didn't withstand the faintest wind', and the people who follow this false prophet are now subjective and can not recognize the true voice of God when they hear it, and yet, even so God will take THEM back (when they turn back to the truth).

You see, my friend, you think you are eating meat (1 Corinthians 3:2), but you are ingesting poison. I pray you will soon vomit it up and be made well.

And, an aside, how is it that voicing your opinion in this forum is "bold behavior"? There is nothing bold about that. We are all voicing our opinions and spiritual beliefs. You are no bolder than I in this matter.

As for my family, they are nice folks. I love them dearly. They don't behave badly. They are successfully applying the doctrines they have learned. But they are simply miserable inside. They don't realize that these false teachings are the source of their misery and lack of inner peace.

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