R.B. Thieme Jr.
Date: March 25, 2007 01:07AM
[i:41fb1a2c50]Context of 1John Chapter 1 – This is [b:41fb1a2c50]entirely to the church[/b:41fb1a2c50]. The context is fellowship of the believer with God. This is not speaking to those who lack salvation.[/i:41fb1a2c50]
You also have a habit of making big dogmatic statements, which are really nothing more than assumptions. You assume that, because the epistles were written to churches, the audience is only believers. But there were many unbelieving heretics in the church then, just as there are now. And the apostles warned the churches about this many times. In their epistles, they dealt with questions of salvation for the unbelievers in the audience, and questions of spirituality for the believers. As responsible ministers of the Word, who had the utmost care and concern for their hearers/readers (believer and unbeliever alike), they had to cover both issues very thoroughly. They certainly never made the assumption that everyone in the church they were writing to were all believers. One of the reasons they had to thoroughly and repeatedly expound the doctrines of salvation, was that there unbelievers in the churches—some of whom were even trying to promote their heresy and denying that Jesus was the Son of God (called “antichrists” by John in his epistles). When Paul wrote, “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation,” don’t you think he was concerned about the unbelievers in the audience?
[i:41fb1a2c50]A person who is not saved is not going to concern himself/herself with maintaining fellowship with God. 1John 1:6 states a person says he has fellowship. [b:41fb1a2c50]An unbeliever is not going to care one iota about whether in fellowship or not.[/b:41fb1a2c50][/i:41fb1a2c50]
Once again, another groundless assumption. There have always been religious unbelievers (like Pharisees and Gnostics in John’s day, and many Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc., today) who do indeed desire fellowship with God, and even think that they have it, but they are still lost in darkness because they have never confessed that they are lost sinners who need the Savior, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and Him alone. This was a primary concern for John in writing his epistles, as he and the other apostles had to refute the heresies of the Gnostics, who were in the churches, denying that they were sinners and even denying that Jesus was the Son of God. John writes in 1 John 2:18-19, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, [b:41fb1a2c50]even now are there many [/b:41fb1a2c50][b:41fb1a2c50]antichrists[/b:41fb1a2c50]; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” And again, in 1 John 4:2-3, “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: [b:41fb1a2c50]Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: [/b:41fb1a2c50]and this is that spirit of [b:41fb1a2c50]antichrist[/b:41fb1a2c50], whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” In this short epistle, John repeatedly emphasizes the Person and Deity of Christ: “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that [b:41fb1a2c50]Jesus is the Son of God[/b:41fb1a2c50]? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, [b:41fb1a2c50]the Word[/b:41fb1a2c50], and the Holy Ghost: and [b:41fb1a2c50]these three are one[/b:41fb1a2c50]” (1 John 5:5-7). And, in refutation of the Christ-denying heretics (“antichrists”), he repeatedly declares that we must believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God: “And this is his commandment, That we should [b:41fb1a2c50]believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ[/b:41fb1a2c50], and love one another, as he gave us commandment” (1 John 3:23); “And we have seen and do testify that [b:41fb1a2c50]the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world[/b:41fb1a2c50]. Whosoever shall [b:41fb1a2c50]confess that Jesus is the Son of God[/b:41fb1a2c50], God dwelleth in him, and he in God” (1 John 4:14-15); “Whosoever [b:41fb1a2c50]believeth that Jesus is the Christ [/b:41fb1a2c50]is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him” (1 John 5:1); “He that [b:41fb1a2c50]believeth on the Son of God [/b:41fb1a2c50]hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [b:41fb1a2c50]He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [/b:41fb1a2c50]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of th e Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and [b:41fb1a2c50]that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God[/b:41fb1a2c50]” (1 John 5:10-13). Would John have to keep repeating these basic truths of the Person and Work of Christ if he was only talking to believers? Can we afford to make such an unfounded assumption? Especially when we already know that there were unbelievers in the early churches?
[i:41fb1a2c50]Conversely, 1 John 2 states “My little Children” certainly not unbelievers are his students?[/i:41fb1a2c50]
And yet again, another [i:41fb1a2c50]assumption[/i:41fb1a2c50]. John addresses his audience several times as “my little children,” but, as we have already established, not everyone in his audience is a believer. John is greatly concerned for the spiritual condition of those he is writing to. Whether they are believers or unbelievers, he cares about them; and we cannot make the assumption that just because he addresses them as his children, they are all actually saved.
[i:41fb1a2c50]Then proceeds to state that he hopes they will not sin but when they do they have an advocate in Christ before the father![/i:41fb1a2c50]
And the assumptions just keep on coming... It actually makes perfect sense to spend the first chapter setting forth the issues of salvation and the Person and Work of Christ, and once you’ve established these principles, explain the advocacy of Christ at the right hand of the Father. You can’t grab one statement about the advocacy of Christ and assume that everything that’s been said to that point was addressed exclusively to believers.
[i:41fb1a2c50]1John Chapter 1 is the extension of understanding that [b:41fb1a2c50]God desires fellowship with us. That is why he created us.[/b:41fb1a2c50][/i:41fb1a2c50]
Yes, Galiban, I couldn’t agree more. God desires fellowship with us all. That is indeed why He created us. But we are all born into this world lost in sin. The only way we can have fellowship with God is to believe in His Son and become born again and saved. The issue of coming into fellowship with God is not “rebound,” but simply believing in Christ. We then receive His perfect righteousness, we are new creatures in eternal union with Him, and in eternal fellowship with God through the perfect, complete, and eternal sacrifice of Christ at the Cross. Our new nature is perfectly righteous and therefore can never lose this fellowship; our old nature is corrupt and sinful, and never was and never will be in fellowship with God.
You claim that the context of 1 John 1 supports your “rebound” doctrine, but all you have done is skim over the chapter making a lot of assumptions, and you have not compared it with other relevant passages. Let’s read through this chapter:
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 John 1:1-2 [/b:41fb1a2c50]That which was [b:41fb1a2c50]from the beginning[/b:41fb1a2c50], which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of [b:41fb1a2c50]the Word of life[/b:41fb1a2c50]; (For [b:41fb1a2c50]the life was manifested[/b:41fb1a2c50], and [b:41fb1a2c50]we have seen it[/b:41fb1a2c50], and bear witness, and shew unto you [b:41fb1a2c50]that eternal life, which was with the Father[/b:41fb1a2c50], and was manifested unto us;)
John begins his first epistle in an almost identical fashion as his Gospel—declaring the Person of Jesus Christ, the eternal Living Word, who was manifested to us on earth.
[b:41fb1a2c50]John 1:1-4,14 [/b:41fb1a2c50][b:41fb1a2c50]In the beginning [/b:41fb1a2c50]was the Word, and [b:41fb1a2c50]the Word was with God, and the Word was God[/b:41fb1a2c50]. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [b:41fb1a2c50]In him was life[/b:41fb1a2c50]; and the life was the light of men. ... And [b:41fb1a2c50]the Word was made flesh[/b:41fb1a2c50], and dwelt among us, (and [b:41fb1a2c50]we beheld his glory[/b:41fb1a2c50], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here we have a striking similarity between the opening chapters of two books, written by the same author with much of the same vocabulary. This is where we have a very obvious, logical reason for comparing two passages (no imaginary “highway” is necessary).
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 John 1:3 [/b:41fb1a2c50][u:41fb1a2c50]That which we have seen and heard[/u:41fb1a2c50] declare we unto you, [b:41fb1a2c50]that [u:41fb1a2c50]ye[/u:41fb1a2c50] also may have fellowship with [u:41fb1a2c50]us[/u:41fb1a2c50][/b:41fb1a2c50]: and truly [b:41fb1a2c50]our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ[/b:41fb1a2c50].
“That which we have seen and heard” is the Person of Christ from verses 1-2. And John is declaring the Person of Christ to his readers/hearers for a specific purpose—so that they can have fellowship with him (John), who already has fellowship with God. So right away, we see two groups of people involved here—those with whom John already has fellowship (“us”) and those with whom he does not yet have fellowship (“ye”). There are people in the audience who John cannot yet fellowship with, and for this reason he is declaring unto them the Person of Christ. And if John needs to declare the Person of Christ to them before he can have fellowship with them, then obviously they are not yet saved.
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 John 1:5 [/b:41fb1a2c50]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that [b:41fb1a2c50]God is light[/b:41fb1a2c50], and in him is no darkness at all.
Similarly, we see in John’s Gospel that the “light” is Jesus Christ, and the “darkness” is the unbelieving world:
[b:41fb1a2c50]John 1:5-10[/b:41fb1a2c50] And [b:41fb1a2c50]the light shineth in darkness[/b:41fb1a2c50]; and [b:41fb1a2c50]the darkness comprehended it not[/b:41fb1a2c50]. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(By the way, I read Randall Pittman’s chapter on Light and Darkness and did not see anything to support your view. Could you show me some specific statements?)
In verses 6 and 7, we see again that the issue of fellowship depends on salvation, not “rebound.”
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 John 1:6-7 [/b:41fb1a2c50]If we say that we have [b:41fb1a2c50]fellowship with him[/b:41fb1a2c50], and [b:41fb1a2c50]walk in darkness[/b:41fb1a2c50], we lie, and do not the truth: But if we [b:41fb1a2c50]walk in the light[/b:41fb1a2c50], as he is in the light, we have [b:41fb1a2c50]fellowship one with another[/b:41fb1a2c50], and [b:41fb1a2c50]the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin[/b:41fb1a2c50].
Here we have the clear distinction between walking in darkness and walking in the light. If a religious unbeliever like a Pharisee or a Gnostic (an “antichrist”) says they have fellowship with God, they are lying because they are still walking in darkness. By contrast, if we “walk in the light,” two things happen: (1) [u:41fb1a2c50]we have fellowship with one another[/u:41fb1a2c50] (as in verse 3), and (2) [u:41fb1a2c50]the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin[/u:41fb1a2c50]. The blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin can only mean salvation. (There are numerous scriptures on the blood of Christ washing away our sins throughout the N.T.) If we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin; therefore, to walk in the light is simp ly to be saved. And if we walk in the light (if we are born-again believers), then we can have fellowship with one another, as in 1 John 1:3 (see above).
At this point, it is also interesting to note 1 Cor 1:8-9, where the Apostle Paul also mentions fellowship with God. (You see, Galiban, this is how a diligent Bible student with common sense studies the Bible—by looking up scriptures that actually mention the same subject.)
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 Cor 1:8-9 [/b:41fb1a2c50]Who shall also [b:41fb1a2c50]confirm you unto the end[/b:41fb1a2c50], that ye may be [b:41fb1a2c50]blameless [/b:41fb1a2c50]in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were [b:41fb1a2c50]called unto the [u:41fb1a2c50]fellowship[/u:41fb1a2c50] of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord[/b:41fb1a2c50].
When the Apostle Paul, the great teacher of the doctrines of the “mystery,” talks about our fellowship with God, does he even hint that it can ever be lost? And that we have to continually “recover” it because we’ll keep “losing” it? Not at all. He only reminds us that, as born-again believers who are eternally secure with the very righteousness of Jesus Christ, we will be “confirmed unto the end” and “blameless” at our Lord’s return. This is the only issue concerning fellowship with God—have you believed in His Son and are now [i:41fb1a2c50]in Christ[/i:41fb1a2c50], or are you still lost and without Christ.
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 John 1:8-10 [/b:41fb1a2c50]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
As noted in my previous posts, all the phraseology used in these verses (the truth/word not being in us, confession of sins, forgiveness of sins, cleansing from unrighteousness, and making God a liar) has to do with being saved versus being lost—not a believer being spiritual or carnal (again, spirituality is not even mentioned).
Now honestly, Galiban, when we look at the scriptures I’ve cited and the scriptures you’ve cited, which ones are actually relevant to 1 John 1?
[i:41fb1a2c50]Thessalonians Chapter 5: 1-11 really clearly states that he is warning the “Brethren” (fellow believers) to [b:41fb1a2c50]stay out of the darkness [/b:41fb1a2c50]and not fall asleep. You need to put on the breastplate of Faith (study of doctrine, remember Faith is not believing in something we do not understand but that which we have studied and come to know) to stay sober and alert; the opposition force of sleeping/darkness in the previous verse of chapter 5.[/i:41fb1a2c50]
[u:41fb1a2c50][b:41fb1a2c50]1 Thessalonians 5[/b:41fb1a2c50][/u:41fb1a2c50]
[b:41fb1a2c50]1 [/b:41fb1a2c50]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[b:41fb1a2c50]2[/b:41fb1a2c50] For yourselves know perfectly that the [b:41fb1a2c50]day of the Lord [/b:41fb1a2c50]so cometh as a thief in the night.
[b:41fb1a2c50]3[/b:41fb1a2c50] For when [u:41fb1a2c50]they[/u:41fb1a2c50] shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon [u:41fb1a2c50][b:41fb1a2c50]them[/b:41fb1a2c50][/u:41fb1a2c50], as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[b:41fb1a2c50]4[/b:41fb1a2c50] But [b:41fb1a2c50]ye, brethren, are [u:41fb1a2c50]not in darkness[/u:41fb1a2c50][/b:41fb1a2c50], that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[b:41fb1a2c50]5[/b:41fb1a2c50] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: [b:41fb1a2c50]we are not of the night, nor of darkness[/b:41fb1a2c50].
“They” are clearly the unbelieving world who will be caught unsuspecting and destroyed at the Lord's return; “they” are the ones in darkness. The day of the Lord will come upon them as a thief, but it will not come upon us as a thief. The “brethren” are the “children of light” and “children of the day”; they are not “of the night, nor of darkness.” Paul does not say anything like “Stay out of the darkness.” He tells the brethren that they are not in darkness to begin with. Once again, the difference between light and darkness is the difference between being saved or lost.
[i:41fb1a2c50]Context of Ephesians 5 is avoiding the operation of the sin nature and fulfilling God’s will. The “magical bridge” is scriptural understanding. Ephesians 5 tells us how we grieve the spirit. 1John Chapter 1 tells us how to regain that fellowship.[/i:41fb1a2c50]
I can see that dealing with you is going to be a lot like dealing with ephesians. You have ignored every question I’ve asked you and him concerning this alleged correlation between “fellowship” and grieving and quenching the Spirit. From my 02/17 post: “Of course we are commanded not to grieve and quench the Spirit, Galiban, but [b:41fb1a2c50]where does the Bible ever say that naming and citing our sins is the solution to grieving and quenching the Spirit? [/b:41fb1a2c50]You can’t just keep building this imaginary magical bridge between 1 John 1:9 and all these other verses, with no logical scriptural reason to do so. Again, Eph 4-6 is all about spiritual growth and the qualities of spiritual maturity I just mentioned. In 1 Thess 5, we see many similar spiritual qualities, such as comforting and supporting the weak, having patience toward ot hers, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks. [b:41fb1a2c50]Confessing sins is never even mentioned in these passages.[/b:41fb1a2c50]” Fellowship is never mentioned in Eph 4 and 1 Thess 5 either. Isn’t it strange that all these things (the components of your “rebound” doctrine) are never mentioned together in the same passage, Galiban? Aren’t you getting tired of building highways?
Again, from my 02/17 post: “[b:41fb1a2c50]Where is it ever stated that setting aside the old man and putting on the new man are the result of confessing our sins? [/b:41fb1a2c50]Again, look at the context of Eph 4, and find me one verse that tells us to confess sins.” ... “Of course we have a choice of which nature (old or new) that we will follow. We have daily choices to obey God or obey our own flesh. But [b:41fb1a2c50]where in the entire Bible does that choice have anything to do with naming and citing a list of our sins to God?[/b:41fb1a2c50]” Will you ever get around to giving me a direct answer to each of these questions? Or are they questions that you cannot answer?
[i:41fb1a2c50]Ephesians 5 tells us how we [b:41fb1a2c50]grieve the spirit[/b:41fb1a2c50]. 1John Chapter 1 tells us how to [b:41fb1a2c50]regain that fellowship[/b:41fb1a2c50].[/i:41fb1a2c50]
There is a giant ASSUMPTION in between these two sentences. You ASSUME that grieving the Spirit means losing fellowship. Yet, in spite of my repeated challenges to both you and ephesians, you have not presented a shred of evidence that grieving the Spirit and fellowship have anything to do with each other. Why couldn’t Paul have simply just told us how to “regain that fellowship” right in Ephesians 5? Wasn’t it awfully irresponsible of him to leave out such an important point?[/b]