Current Page: 199 of 201
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: December 29, 2011 09:50AM

To the Forum:

While zeebrook admits disagreement with Thieme at points and does appear to be trying to mediate, hardly is the quote below acceptable. zeebrook like most thiemites appear to think in modern day human institutions terms of just "a pastor or teacher" leading a local church.

Quote
zeebrook
...
Whilst some disdain the idea of an authority in a local church, one has to face the facts that there are those who rule in a local church, those who take responsibility for it to which other members submit.
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." (1 Timothy 5:17). So an elder is one who is to rule (proistemi perfect active participle be at the head, rule).
" Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17). The call is to obey and submit to your leaders (hegomai articular present middle participle lead, guide)
" "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28). The Holy Spirit appointed "overseers" to the church (episkopos overseer, guardian, supervisor)

Do any of these inhibit a believers ability to learn the word of God? No way. But the pastor-teacher, teacher do have the responsibility for teaching the word to those they oversee (cf 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7 to name a few).

There is only one ruler in a local church or anywhere. G-d.

Here is a a webpage from [www.wickedshepherds.com] . They have gone in a similar direction that I have.

"The same is true in regards to1 Timothy 5:17: “Let the elders that rule (proistemi) well be counted worthy of double honor.” The Greek word proistemi, rendered “rule,” bears no association at all with authority, power, or control. It merely meant that elders (older men) are to stand with zeal; maintain themselves; should be foremost in knowledge and quality of life; a quality which rightfully should be embodied in all saints. “Proistemi” is not therefore for the few, but the duty of all. " [www.wickedshepherds.com]

Couple of things. Looking at the other usages of peitho (and remember that sense and tense etc... are of the greek word and we are trying to get the english meaning. Remember also there are some words that do not exist in english that exist in other languages) in the New Testament, I'd like to point to Galations 1:10 “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?”

Now the question is asked “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?” Paul is on a lower "chain of command" authority than G-d, yet? Is not Paul saying that he peitho persuades G-d? Read it again “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?” Galatians 1:10

So therefore it is possible to translate (2000 year old paraphrasing) Hebrews 13:17 as "Persuade those leading in the Lord and yield..."

Hebrews 13:17 applied to all christians with all the gifts. Remember there were many gifts (and still are) not just pastors and teachers. Discerning spirits, speaking in tongues, translating tongues, prophecy etc... And those are just the known gifts mentioned in the canon but? Not all truth has been revealed yet.

Yet another usage of peitho is "esteem":

“Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem(peitho) other better than themselves.” Philippians 2:3 This is ALL CHRISTIANS, INCLUDING PASTORS AND TEACHERS. Thieme was to have esteem others better than himself.

“And to esteem (peitho) them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves." 1 Thessalonians 5:13

The usages of peitho in these cases use "esteem" and do not use "obey" as Hebrews 13:17 shouldn't. So again it is possible to translate (2000 year old paraphrasing) Hebrews 13:17 as "Esteem those leading in the Lord and yield...". My sense of those "leading in the Lord" are all christians doing thier part, exercising thier gift(s). All esteeming one another and submitting one unto another.

The greek goddess "Peitho" was a goddess of persuasion. Also remember the communication among most people at the time was word of mouth. They did not have Iphones, Tvs, radios, bic pens etc... So? remembering what someone told you standing before you in Jesus (as an example) was important to remember to tell others and imitate to show example of Jesus-like behaviour (But that was the standard communication method for that time.)

False authority in christian circles (be they anywhere) blinds christians to the truth of Jesus' teachings.

Also, I would never limit the ways G-d shows christians "a more excellent way".

Many christians greatly error when bypassing and ignoring the teachings of Jesus to only take a verse Paul stated out of the context of remembering the teachings of Jesus.

Pretend tranlsation? Indeed not including Jesus' authority structure whenever translating any verse is in indeed a false pretend translation.

Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2011 10:20AM by Truthtesty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: December 31, 2011 10:46AM

To the Forum:

So same "peitho" as in Hebrews 13:17 how does the cult of Bishops of King James' "obey" work in Philippians 2:3?

King James' cult of bishops:
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

No "obey" there is there?

There is no "obey" in Hebrews 13:17 either

[interlinearbible.org]

Let's try the king james cult's Hebrews 13:17 "obey" "peitho" in Philippians 2:3 anyhow:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each obey other better than themselves.

In this case, Jesus' servant leadership proves true once again. "... but in lowliness of mind let each obey other better than themselves.

Each obeying other better than themselves? My what's a narcissitic ego maniac pastor teacher to do? Obey someone else?

Even here Jesus' teachings prove true THROUGH the history of mans institutional cults. Each must obey one another as each and every christian must submit to one another.

"Obey christian rulers"? Hah what a joke. That is man's corrupt institutions

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2011 10:54AM by Truthtesty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: January 03, 2012 05:16AM

Quote
Truthtesty
Yet another usage of peitho is "esteem":

“Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem(peitho) other better than themselves.” Philippians 2:3 This is ALL CHRISTIANS, INCLUDING PASTORS AND TEACHERS. Thieme was to have esteem others better than himself.

“And to esteem (peitho) them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves." 1 Thessalonians 5:13

The usages of peitho in these cases use "esteem" and do not use "obey" as Hebrews 13:17 shouldn't. So again it is possible to translate (2000 year old paraphrasing) Hebrews 13:17 as "Esteem those leading in the Lord and yield...". My sense of those "leading in the Lord" are all christians doing thier part, exercising thier gift(s). All esteeming one another and submitting one unto another.

To the Forum:

I have always said "don't trust me" "test me". I try to provide proof each time I post [interlinearbible.org]


The 2 posts above contain the error of saying (peitho) means "esteem". It doesn't. I misread it. Esteem is one of the translated meanings of (hçgoumenoi). hçgoumenois is translated "them that have rule" by the cult of Bishops of King James.

But again the servant leadership of Jesus of the example of Jesus and all the apostles thus is the example of the authority structure of the Body of Jesus, in the New testament.

It is not a gentile authority structure.

The protestants are proud of "reforming" Catholics, but now it has been the time for the protestants to have thier own reforming. It is clear the cult of Bishops of King James intentionally misrepresented the authority structure of the servant leadership of Jesus in the Body. The servant leadership is central to any concept of "authority"(between christians) in the New Testament and thus it's translation(corrected paraphrases). It is not a gentile authority structure. Modern day churches are also slow to recognize the truth of change.

"
Now, we will look at the word “rule” or "rule over.” “Obey them that have the rule over you…” Hebrews 13:17
Perhaps [www.wickedshepherds.com] can be useful here:
Quote
wickedshepards
"

As with the word “o-b-e-y,” it is clear that the translator’s choice of the English word “rule” or “rule over them” was deliberately designed to not only benefit, but also to bolster the already embedded practice of institutional church control. (And yet again, the word “over” is no where present in the original text, and should be dismissed.)
When we check what the Greek word translated “rule” is in this verse and verses like it, we find that this is not a translation but a redefinition of one Greek word. The Greek word translated "rule over you" in Hebrews 13:7 and 17 and 24 is “hegeomai,” Strong's #2233 and it is normally translated “count,” “esteem,” “to lead” or “to go before.” “…Them that have the rule over…” is a substitution by the translators. There is no connotation whatsoever of “ruling over.” True leadership is nothing more than going on ahead.
Here are some verses where this word is properly translated.
“Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.” Philippians 2:3
“Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ.” Philippians 3:8
“And to esteem them very highly in love…” 1 Thessalonians 5:13
Hebrews 13:17 should read “Be persuaded of those you highly esteem," NOT "Obey them that have the rule over you." No church leader has "dominion over your faith."
2 Corinthians 1:24 “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”
Look again at Matthew Chapter 20. “But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister; and whosoever would be first among you shall be your servant; even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
"It is NOT so among" church elders! True leaders in God’s ecclesia use His word to "persuade" those in the assembly to humble themselves and be servants one of another. They never "exercise dominion" over anyone in their care. They are rather "helpers of their joy."
The dictionary’s use of the word “rule” or “rule over” fits very nicely in today’s local institutional church:
Control, dominion: 'under the rule of a dictator,' dominating power, authority, superior, preeminent, predominate, 'rule the roost,' command, regnancy, ascendancy, mastery.
Is this what we see in the Scriptures concerning leaders in the assembly, or is this what we see in today’s religious institutions? The English definition of the word “rule” or “rule over”is totally devoid of any meaning or even suggestion of service, of ministering, of servanthood, of being an example. Shouldn't this by itself open your eyes? This alone should arouse our suspicions, considering that Christ-like leadership is servanthood.
"Assuredly, I say to you, unless you turn and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3-4
“…Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28
“And whoever exalts himself will be humbled and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Matthew 23:12
“If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you.
…If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them.” John 13:14-17
The same is true in regards to1 Timothy 5:17: “Let the elders that rule (proistemi) well be counted worthy of double honor.” The Greek word proistemi, rendered “rule,” bears no association at all with authority, power, or control. It merely meant that elders (older men) are to stand with zeal; maintain themselves; should be foremost in knowledge and quality of life; a quality which rightfully should be embodied in all saints. “Proistemi” is not therefore for the few, but the duty of all.
“Go ye, and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this Life." Acts 5:20
“…when I stood before the council, except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question before you this day.” Acts 24:20-21
“…to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works.” Titus 3:8
“And let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.” Titus 3:14
How did the word rule or rule over, which in the mind of the English reader conveys control and mastery over the people, find its way into the text when Paul himself wrote: “Not that we are trying to dictate to you what you must believe; but are fellow workers and helpers of your joy, for by your faith you stand." 2 Corinthians 1:24..."

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 05:18AM by Truthtesty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: January 16, 2012 02:06AM

To the Forum:

Seeing how this is a forum on the cult characteristics of Thieme, and not about my errors(which I have no problem admitting to). Let's put the focus back on what people need to be warned about: the dangers of Thieme's errors.

Quote in appendix A of Thieme's booklet "doctrine of divine essence"
Quote
Thieme
We adjust to G-ds infinite, immutable, ceaselessly active authority by adjusting to the right pastorteacher's authority."


This is not simply a discipleship worship of Thieme. This a perverted dependency, a perversion of truth(worshiping Thieme's false authority as equivalent to God's authority as falsely taught by Thieme). This false teaching has raised havoc and destruction on many christians' spirituality.

Thieme clearly claimed to be a mediator (mediating authority) between G-d and man. Some cults claim a mediatorship between G-d and man ie Moonies, Jones, etc...

There is no verse in the teachings of Jesus which promotes in christian circles one spiritual gift over all other spiritual gifts. All christians are to submit one unto another.

Accordingly, “there is one … mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). [interlinearbible.org]

Thieme regularly berated Catholics for worshipping the mediation of prayer to the Virgin Mary, yet Thieme falsely set himself up as a mediation (mediating authority) between G-d and man.

Dr. Wall's dissertation: "Second, the entire process that Thieme propounds can be reduced to one phrase: Be positive toward and believe what is taught. Not only does this concept dangerously produce a blind dependency on a pastor-teacher, but it fails to
encompass the clear scriptural pattern for growth. Paul's classic passage on spiritual maturity, Ephesians 4, indicates two aspects of the process that Thieme has overlooked. First, verse 16 teaches that spiritual growth takes place through the contact and interaction of the members of the body of Christ, as every spiritual gift in the body functions and ministers to other gifts. Second, the subject of
"speaking the truth in love" in verse 15 is "we." In the context this means the whole body of believers. Not only does the process of spiritual maturity involve all of the members of the body ministering to one another, but the biblical pattern requires application of truth, not only as a result of maturity but as a part of the process of growing itself. Christ taught that a volitional decision to obey God's will would result in discernment (John 7:17). He also taught that the building of our spiritual house and its stability depends upon acting upon the teachings of Christ (Matt. 7:24-27). Also the writer of Hebrews taught that a key element in spiritual maturity is the discernment between good and evil, and he indicated that practical exercise (hexin) was necessary to develop mature discernment. The maturing process is not sitting under a particular, authoritative pastor-teacher every night of the week and responding with positive faith. It is the loving communication of the truths of God's Word by all of the members of the body, expressing the particular illumination that the Holy Spirit gives to each person in accordance with his particular gift. The pastor-teacher and the evangelist (Eph. 4:1 lb) are toequip the saints (all believers) with the tools for personal Bible study and application; the saints, in turn, carry out the work of service for the purpose of building up the body of Christ (Eph. 4:12). Each individual Christian grows as he responds to the truth so communicated to him. That response includes both attitude changes and overt actions. Thieme's GAP approach is totally off-balanced. Not only does it fail to enhance true spiritual growth, it actually can inhibit true growth by giving the believer a false sense of maturity, not unlike the "puffed up" believer in I Corinthians 8: 1. 33
[withchrist.org]

Also from Dr. Wall "One thing is clear, the Scriptures do not single out one person with a particular gift and set him over a local body as an absolute ruler."

Watch out. Test all things.


Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2012 02:31AM by Truthtesty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: leubanks63 ()
Date: February 12, 2012 03:26AM

I began attending Berachah in the 1970s when I was 8 or 9 years old. I soaked up all the Colonel's teachings like a sponge. We went to church every night of the week except Saturday, and also on Sunday mornings. I began to attend less frequently when I was in college. It was around that time when Thieme sent a letter to my mother kicking her out of the church and saying that if she were ever seen on the premises, the police who guarded the church would remove her. It was not until I was in my late 20s and began attending a normal church that I realized how warped and destructive the teachings had been at Berachah and how strange the church was when compared to other churches.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: leubanks63 ()
Date: February 12, 2012 03:56AM

Was Buddy Dano the pastor of Grace Bible Church? When I began attending Berachah in the 1970s, Dano was an assistant pastor. Over the years, Thieme got rid of both assistant pastors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: February 12, 2012 10:30AM

Quote
leubanks63
I began attending Berachah in the 1970s when I was 8 or 9 years old. I soaked up all the Colonel's teachings like a sponge. We went to church every night of the week except Saturday, and also on Sunday mornings. I began to attend less frequently when I was in college. It was around that time when Thieme sent a letter to my mother kicking her out of the church and saying that if she were ever seen on the premises, the police who guarded the church would remove her. It was not until I was in my late 20s and began attending a normal church that I realized how warped and destructive the teachings had been at Berachah and how strange the church was when compared to other churches.

Welcome Leubanks63,

I am guessing your last name is Leubanks, which sounds famliar. And you were born in 1963.
That's interesting that your mother was written a letter by Thieme. Did she work at the Berachah reeducation camp?

Thieme regularly attacked the congregation with verbal intimidations or having the Houston cops remove people. However, this is the first I have heard of a letter. Could you send a photocopy of the letter?

Truthtesty

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: Truthtesty ()
Date: February 12, 2012 10:35AM

Quote
leubanks63
Was Buddy Dano the pastor of Grace Bible Church? When I began attending Berachah in the 1970s, Dano was an assistant pastor. Over the years, Thieme got rid of both assistant pastors.


I don't know the answer to that question. Perhaps someone elee here knows.

I not at all surprised that Thieme would get rid of assistant pastors.

Truthtesty

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: TouchSmart ()
Date: August 06, 2012 04:57AM

Recovering Christian,

I re-read your post today, and said a prayer for you. I'm sorry that your experience in a Thieme church distorted your understanding of Christianity. I attended a Thieme offshoot church for almost 12 years, but attended other conservative Christian churches for approximately 30 years prior to that. Believe me, the teaching and resulting thinking at the Thieme type church is VERY different from your average Baptist church, for example. It's not immediately obvious to a casual observer, but the impact of this difference in teaching and thinking is significant in the lives of the church attendees. I have seen the results "up close and personal"!
My hope and prayer for you is that someday you will have a relationship with God that is characterized by friendship and the true freedom that love brings to a close, trusting relationship with God. There are so many scriptures in the Bible which illustrate this type of relationship! I don't believe there is any "perfect church", but there are churches where groups of believers study Gods Word with sincerity and humility, seeking His will for their lives and realizing that but for God's grace we are all lost! Simply praying (talking to God), would be a good starting point. Believe me, it all makes a lot of sense when understood from a position of freedom in Christ.
I don't know whether the Thieme people intend to bring their followers into bondage, but I know this is the result of their often distorted views.
For example, once when I was accused of wrong doing, without any real evidence, my Thieme type pastor told me that the "burden of proof was on me to prove that I had NOT done wrong. Later my accuser recanted, and the pastor "sort of" apologized, but his distorted thinking, mixed with some distorted biblical teaching, resulted in several years of agonizing prayer and confusion, before I finally left the church.
I, like many others, had almost completely bought into the subtle teaching that the Thieme type churches were the only real "game in town", and that all the other churches were highly inferior. I felt a sense of deep loss when I left the Thieme church and experienced deep hurt, because I was unfairly characterized by the pastor and deacons. I realize now, that it was God's grace leading me out of this church and into a closer relationship with Him.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 02, 2013 07:59PM

See [www.cultnews.com]

The Rick A. Ross Institute for the Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups, and Movements has officially changed its name to The Cult Education Institute for the Study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups and Movements.

The new domain name entry point and gateway to the Internet archives of the institute will soon be culteducation.com.

The Cult Education Institute archives is a library of information about destructive cults, controversial groups and movements, which was initially launched in 1996 and has continued to be under construction and expansion for the past 17 years.

The public message board attached to the The Cult Education Institute will soon only be accessible through the domain name culteducation.com. More than 100,000 entries from the former members of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements and others concerned has accumulated at the board over the past decade. The message board content continues to grow daily and it serves as a free speech zone for those who wish to share their insights and concerns about the topics listed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 199 of 201


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.