To the Forum:

If I am going to be accused of dishonesty, then I first need to know that I was being dishonest. Which I wasn't. Note "probably" not "definitely" and "refer to spiritual gifts". And, if one were to say that Thieme was pastor in the sense of being a shepard in having a personal relationship and knowing people in the congregation and counseling them when they were hurt in thier lives then I would have to say that that would be a complete lie (with an emphasis that cannot be written on this forum). Thieme at best corrupted the scriptural translation with a false neoconservative political ideolgy. More than likely to serve oil billionaires like Koch and H L Hunt. Where Thieme spoke at neoconservative seminars sponsored by Hunt. Thieme "taught" a gospel that Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (Thieme's teacher) would have considered satanic.

Dr Wall's dissertation p. 129 [withchrist.org]

"Also it should be noted that the term pastor and the term teacher are used to refer to spiritual gifts in the body, not to a ruling office. In Ephesians 4:11, these two terms are linked very closely and probably refer to a combination gift held by certain people in the body of Christ. However, in the context of Ephesians 4 the subject is not church government, but spiritual gifts in the body of Christ (note verses 4, 8 and 16). It is conceivable that a church could have a number of gifted pastor-teachers, as well as gifted pastors and gifted teachers, and that these would minister both as authoritative elders (dependent upon their
spiritual maturity) and as non-authoritative members of the body in person-toperson relations. One thing is clear, the Scriptures do not single out one person with a particular gift and set him over a local body as an absolute ruler."

There is some controversy about some pastors and some teachers.

In any case 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." [interlinearbible.org]


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 03:18AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Quote
zeebrook
No Thiemeite I have ever met has ever said that there is only one spiritual gift. Yet another straw man argument set up. No Thiemeite I have ever met relegated other spiritual gifts as non-essential or non-existent. Straw man argument yet again.
...The berating of those who did not come to "class" indicating that alone they could not study the scriptures is out of line. The learning of spiritual things is a spiritual function (cf 1 Corinthians 2:14-16) yet we do need to take in the word of God (1 Peter 2:2) being equipped by pastors and teachers (Eph 4:11) who instruct in the principles of the Christian life (Hebrews 5:11-6:2) hence we submit to them (Hebrews 13:7, 17). But to make an equation that Thiemeites hold to an idea that the Holy Spirit is activated by a human being is dishonest and disingenuous.

If that were an honest statement, I have to say zeebrook has never met any thiemite at all period. No strawman here just the facts.

Perhaps zeebrook would like to tell us of the other "essential" spiritual gifts Thieme allowed in class? Thieme didn't allow any other gifted people to speak.

Only Thieme spoke with extremist authority and required submission to his authority as a so called pastor/teacher. Otherwise? the christian was cutoff from submitting to G-d or walkiing the christian walk. PERIOD. According to Thieme, if you want to walk the christian walk? You have to get past Thieme's authority before you can spiritually function to submit to G-d's authority.

zeebrook is just flat wrong here. Don't let zeebrook's use of flowery academic terms intimidate you. Thiemites believed that the Holy Spirit was most certainly activated by submitting to Thieme's authority:

Thieme, Super Grace booklet, under the section "THE ISSUE OF THE SUPER-GRACE LIFE":

Quote
Thieme
"To submit to the authority of God demands entrance into certain grace functions: the filling of the Spirit, the intake of Bible doctrine, submission to the pastor-teacher. God has designed a grace system for transmission of doctrine from the canon of Scripture into your soul. It is only doctrine in your soul which is usable; and this, of course, is the basis for the power and function of the Christian way of life.... You cannot learn doctrine apart from the one who has the gift of pastor-teacher and therefore the authority. As long as you live you will be dependent on your right pastor, the final authority in the local church. Since you cannot feed yourself, you must go to the place where there is authority — a pastor-teacher communicating to a congregation."

That is an obvious CULT lie. No strawman. Note here Thieme doesn't even say "submission to the pastor-teachers authority". He drops "authority" and just says submission to the pastor-teacher. Equipping indicates that one is eventually equipped, not Thieme's quote "...As long as you live you will be dependent on your right pastor, the final authority..."

A christian can immediately submit to G-d's will through the Holy Spirit and by the Work of Jesus through Jesus' intercession by faith and prayer COMPLETELY ON THIER OWN, and search the scriptures without having to go through the cult of submitting to Thieme's authority as so called pastor/teacher.

I John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [interlinearbible.org]

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[interlinearbible.org]

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
[interlinearbible.org]

I have already proven [forum.culteducation.com] how peithoarcheo is not used between christians truthing in love, instead peithesthe is used in Hebrews 13:17.

All christians with all the gifts including elders are to submit one unto another Ephesians 5:21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
[interlinearbible.org]


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 06:07AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

1 Cor.12: 29-31: "29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

"...a more excellent way..."

Not I, but Christ

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 06:32AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

John 16:23 "Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Direct prayer to G-d in this dispensation is directly to the Father, in the name of the son and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is direct access to G-d for any christian at any moment through Jesus by the power of the Spirit.

Note that is without a pastor/teacher.

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 11:19AM by Truthtesty.

Nice snow job. No where have you backed up your statement that Thieme or Thiemeites say that the "Holy Spirit is activated by any human being". Even the quote from “Super Grace Life”, for which you do not provide the reference (its page 63) does not support your statement. Again no Thiemeite I know has stated that.

Your further statement “Don't let zeebrook's use of flowery academic terms intimidate you. Thiemites believed that the Holy Spirit was most certainly activated by submitting to Thieme's authority” is ludicrous in the extreme. No one believes, and you have not yet cited any evidence, that “the Holy Spirit was most certainly activated by submitting to Thieme’s authority”. No human being activates the Holy Spirit, Thieme’s contention was that you had to be filled with Spirit through confession of sin nothing to do with human activation.

With respect to not knowing Thiemeites, I know lots of them, have been harassed by many, have debated with lots. Included in this is one of his staunchest defenders cited in Wall’s thesis. Yet not one would say there is only “there is only one spiritual gift” or the other dishonest statement “relegated other spiritual gifts as non-essential or non-existent”. They all acknowledge other spiritual gifs such as evangelists, administration, knowledge etc (cf Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4).

In your snow job the sudden change from “relegated other spiritual gifts as non-essential or non-existent” to “other “essential" spiritual gifts Thieme allowed in class” is meant to cajole people into equating gifts functioning in class with all other gifts as non-essential or non-existent. They are separate issues. That other gifted people did not speak at Berachah could be better answered by others who attended far longer than I did. In my time at Berachah (a long time ago) there were testimonies given, though understand they were not the “I was such a bad sinner that it was lucky that God saved me” type but rather how God has worked in my life now.

My question would be what other gifts function in a local church? In our church evangelists speak from time to time, visiting missionaries speak not only about their mission but also preach the word, deacons/elders take mid week Bible study. Gifts of helps, administration etc all function as well.

Who ever argued that prayer required the function of a pastor-teacher? Again raising non issues, straw men arguments.

Wall (p129 of book Thesis) as you quote says in part "In Ephesians 4:11, these two terms are linked very closely and probably refer to a combination gift held by certain people in the body of Christ." So here we have a dissenter from your view that it is definitely two gifts. Point being that whilst some say you have a "pastor-teacher" others will say you have a person who is a "pastor and a teacher". So your statement before that “"the pastor teacher(its actually 2 gifts pastors amd or teachers)” is purely speculative and not definitive and so cannot be used to substantiate your point without alerting readers that there are other valid views on the gift(s).

Even Wall continues on the same page you quote to say “It is conceivable that a church could have a
number of gifted pastor-teachers, as well as gifted pastors and gifted teachers, and that these would minister both as authoritative elders (dependent upon their spiritual maturity) and as non-authoritative members of the body in person-to person relations.” Hence he recognises the combination of the gift as “pastor-teacher” as well as the individual gifts of “pastor” and “teacher”.

Your statement about my supposed “use of flowery academic terms” is laughable. No flowery terms used by me, just straight from the Greek text to you, or from any text book accessible to most believers whom are interested in studying the scriptures. So move on from pejorative remarks (oops, is that a flowery academic term or just English).

“the more excellent way” 1 Corinthians 12:31 does not exclude the first part of the verse where Paul calls for believers to “seek the greater gifts” (ta charismata ta meizona). Yes there is a more excellent way but it is not to the exclusion of exercising the gifts noted by Paul. The more excellent way ensures that the gifts are utilised in proper way hence the "love chapter' (1 Corinthians 13) inserted in between two chapters on gifts (1 Corinthians 12 and 14).

To the Forum:


To zeebrook: To simply this so you can understand answer the questions "What is the Holy Spirit doing when the christian doesn't submit to the Thieme's authority? Is the Holy Spirit capable or not capable (activated or not activated ) of teaching the christian? Is the christian capable or not capable of learning G-d's Word?"


The proof is right there in the Thieme quote provided. It is obvious to anyone with a truly open mind that Thieme is saying he must be submitted to to learn the Word of G-d. This false concept discounts the Holy Spirit being able to do anything in that situation where a pastor/teacher is not submitted to. Thieme's false concept teaches that the Holy Spirit is rendered useless (not activated to teach) unless the christian submits to the false pastor teacher. zeebrook is wordsmithing to the point of absurdity. Though Thieme may never have used the specific exact word "activate" in this context, Thieme most certainly taught that exact false concept.

My original quote was "There is no need to submit to the corrupt authority of any christian to "activate" the Holy Spirit in either case: one, to let a person "hear" the gospel for the first time, or two, for the christian to "hear" teachings of Holy Spirit."


Truthtesty



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 06:20AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

It's real simple. It's real easy. The proof is right there in the Thieme quote provided.

Thieme, Super Grace booklet, under the section "THE ISSUE OF THE SUPER-GRACE LIFE":

Quote
Thieme
"You cannot learn doctrine apart from the one who has the gift of pastor-teacher and therefore the authority.

Thieme's cult quote is false. The Holy Spirit can still teach the christian doctrine(Word of G-d) apart from the one who has a probable combination gift of pastor-teacher.

The christian doesn't need to submit to the false cult authority of a pastor/teacher for the Holy Spirit to teach G-d's Word to them.

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 06:40AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Quote
zeebrook
...“the more excellent way” 1 Corinthians 12:31 does not exclude the first part of the verse where Paul calls for believers to “seek the greater gifts” (ta charismata ta meizona). Yes there is a more excellent way but it is not to the exclusion of exercising the gifts noted by Paul.

It does indicate that love/charity is more excellent way (higher priority) to be as opposed to being desirous of any of the gifts ie apostles, prophets, teachers, working miracles, healing, speaking in tongues, interpreting. Point being regardless of how much you desire the greatest gifts, love/charity is a better more excellent way to be. The emphasis of the sentence is on the latter part of the sentence, that there is better more excellent way to be "to love/charity" than to be "desiring" any of the gifts.

And it doesn't say "seek" it says "Be desirous of" "zeloute"
[interlinearbible.org]

And that without love/charity then exercising the gifts is useless

Truthtesty



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 08:56AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook
Nice snow job. No where have you backed up your statement that Thieme or Thiemeites say that the "Holy Spirit is activated by any human being". Even the quote from “Super Grace Life”, for which you do not provide the reference (its page 63) does not support your statement. Again no Thiemeite I know has stated that.

Your further statement “Don't let zeebrook's use of flowery academic terms intimidate you. Thiemites believed that the Holy Spirit was most certainly activated by submitting to Thieme's authority” is ludicrous in the extreme. No one believes, and you have not yet cited any evidence, that “the Holy Spirit was most certainly activated by submitting to Thieme’s authority”. No human being activates the Holy Spirit, Thieme’s contention was that you had to be filled with Spirit through confession of sin nothing to do with human activation….

No snowjob here, but that is precisely what your trying to do in Thieme's untenable defense. I most certainly did back up my statement by the Thieme quote. Thieme's contention renders the Holy Spirit inactive to teach the confessed Spirit filled believer without the believer submitting to Thieme's authority. Once the believer submits to Thieme's authority then the Holy Spirit is "activated" to teach (reveal the deep things of G-d 1 corinthians 2:10-12). PERIOD.

Otherwise, what is the Holy Spirit doing if the believer is not submitting to Thieme's authority, and the believer is just submitting to G-d's authority? And praying to G-d the Father, through Jesus' name by the power of the Holy Spirit? Will the Holy Spirit reveal the deep things of G-d to the believer or hold out because the believer is not submitting to Thieme's authority?

Where is Thieme's evidence? There is none. The scriptures do not say what Thieme stated in the quote. It is false. There is no delegated authority. There is only one peitharcheo in christian circles directly to the Father through Jesus' name by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 01:20PM by Truthtesty.