To the Forum:
While zeebrook admits disagreement with Thieme at points and does appear to be trying to mediate, hardly is the quote below acceptable. zeebrook like most thiemites appear to think in modern day human institutions terms of just "a pastor or teacher" leading a local church.
Whilst some disdain the idea of an authority in a local church, one has to face the facts that there are those who rule in a local church, those who take responsibility for it to which other members submit.
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." (1 Timothy 5:17). So an elder is one who is to rule (proistemi perfect active participle be at the head, rule).
" Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17). The call is to obey and submit to your leaders (hegomai articular present middle participle lead, guide)
" "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28). The Holy Spirit appointed "overseers" to the church (episkopos overseer, guardian, supervisor)
Do any of these inhibit a believers ability to learn the word of God? No way. But the pastor-teacher, teacher do have the responsibility for teaching the word to those they oversee (cf 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7 to name a few).
There is only one ruler in a local church or anywhere. G-d.
Here is a a webpage from [www.wickedshepherds.com
] . They have gone in a similar direction that I have.
"The same is true in regards to1 Timothy 5:17: “Let the elders that rule (proistemi) well be counted worthy of double honor.” The Greek word proistemi, rendered “rule,” bears no association at all with authority, power, or control. It merely meant that elders (older men) are to stand with zeal; maintain themselves; should be foremost in knowledge and quality of life; a quality which rightfully should be embodied in all saints. “Proistemi” is not therefore for the few, but the duty of all. " [www.wickedshepherds.com
Couple of things. Looking at the other usages of peitho (and remember that sense and tense etc... are of the greek word and we are trying to get the english meaning. Remember also there are some words that do not exist in english that exist in other languages) in the New Testament, I'd like to point to Galations 1:10 “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?”
Now the question is asked “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?” Paul is on a lower "chain of command" authority than G-d, yet? Is not Paul saying that he peitho persuades G-d? Read it again “For do I now persuade (peitho) men, or God; or do I seek to please men?” Galatians 1:10
So therefore it is possible to translate (2000 year old paraphrasing) Hebrews 13:17 as "Persuade those leading in the Lord and yield..."
Hebrews 13:17 applied to all christians with all the gifts. Remember there were many gifts (and still are) not just pastors and teachers. Discerning spirits, speaking in tongues, translating tongues, prophecy etc... And those are just the known gifts mentioned in the canon but? Not all truth has been revealed yet.
Yet another usage of peitho is "esteem":
“Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem(peitho)
other better than themselves.” Philippians 2:3 This is ALL CHRISTIANS, INCLUDING PASTORS AND TEACHERS. Thieme was to have esteem others better than himself.
“And to esteem (peitho) them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves." 1 Thessalonians 5:13
The usages of peitho in these cases use "esteem" and do not use "obey" as Hebrews 13:17 shouldn't. So again it is possible to translate (2000 year old paraphrasing) Hebrews 13:17 as "Esteem those leading in the Lord and yield...". My sense of those "leading in the Lord" are all christians doing thier part, exercising thier gift(s). All esteeming one another and submitting one unto another.
The greek goddess "Peitho" was a goddess of persuasion. Also remember the communication among most people at the time was word of mouth. They did not have Iphones, Tvs, radios, bic pens etc... So? remembering what someone told you standing before you in Jesus (as an example) was important to remember to tell others and imitate to show example of Jesus-like behaviour (But that was the standard communication method for that time.)
False authority in christian circles (be they anywhere) blinds christians to the truth of Jesus' teachings.
Also, I would never limit the ways G-d shows christians "a more excellent way".
Many christians greatly error when bypassing and ignoring the teachings of Jesus to only take a verse Paul stated out of the context of remembering the teachings of Jesus.
Pretend tranlsation? Indeed not including Jesus' authority structure whenever translating any verse is in indeed a false pretend translation.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2011 10:20AM by Truthtesty.