The only reason I commented on your comments Truthtesty was because you were the one making the statements that I perceived were a long bow. No I wasn't defending Thieme simply the linkages you made. Your anecdotal experiences were not challenged, for I too have seen some Thiemeites up close and personal both here and when I attended attended Berachah. The problem with anecdotal evidence, personal experiences is that it is unverifiable and cannot be truly shared with others who have not experienced the same for they do not understand. What I was hoping for was factual refutation of doctrines, comments and the like. Stuff that can actually be shown to Thiemeites, "see here Thieme says this and the verse actually says this etc".

To zeebrook:

Then why didn't you question orange?

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Of course more investigation is necessary, but this appears to be the potential violence latent in almost all cults or as Dr. Enroth said "I know of groups that nobody's heard of that have the potential for violence," he said. "Who heard of Jim Jones before Jonestown? Who heard of Koresh before Waco? There are lots of groups out there who have never been written up who have the potential to become violent.

Dr. Enroth also stated: A central theme of this book ("Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult") is that spiritual abuse can take place in the context of doctrinally sound, bible preaching, fundamental, conservative christianity. All that is needed for abuse is a pastor accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation.

Then from Dr. Wall's dissertation which shows Thieme was beyond confrontation: [www.texaswalls.org] "Thieme was called to the pastorate in May, 1950. His first Sunday may have been a preview of what was to come. Thieme met with the Board of Deacons at the close of his first morning service and demanded their immediate resignation with the threat of his resignation if his demand was not met. The dumbfounded deacons acceded to Thieme's demand, and the pastor became the dominant leader who brooked no challenge to his authority from that time forward."

[forum.culteducation.com]

Truthtesty

Did not know that I had to interrogate everyone? If you look at my moniker you will see I have only just joined this forum, read the last page and provided a comment on something I read which happened to be yours. So let us not get hung up on who has or has not questioned whom.

I repeat that what I am looking for is factual refutation of doctrines, comments etc. Something that I can present to Thiemeites within my periphery. Vagaries like I knew someone who once read an article and they were bad news in the local church is water off a ducks back to Thiemeites. However if you have something along the lines of that Thieme in his book "such and such" says 1+1=3 and this authority over here "mathematical genius 101" proves him wrong, this has impact with Thiemeites. I have had discussions with local Thiemeites and given their "training" they need to be shown simply he says this, the bible clearly in this verse says that.

An example of proving "right man right woman" wrong is to use 1 Corinthians 7:39 "A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord." How could Paul advise the woman to marry "whom she wishes" if right man right woman was a correct doctrine? If right man right woman was correct then she either already has married him and he has died so there is no one else, or if she is destined to have another right man she cannot marry whom she wishes, she has to find the next right one. If right man right woman is wrong then this verse makes complete sense she can marry whomever she wishes provided he is a believer ("in the Lord"). Show this to a Thiemiete and after they have finished fulminating they are unable to worm their way out of it. Then you can show them other things to help them question what they have learned, how they apply it and so on.

Again I am simply looking for factual statements because anecdotal coments of experiences do not challenge Thiemeites who initally are resistant to anything that smells of emotion etc. Show them the Thieme's comments, show them the plain scriptures and you begin the process. Yes they will say the original languages say this etc but as someone pointed out in the Hemet website the argument of Tim Nichols on languages there are resources you can use to refute them.

zeebrook,

Forum page 153
Scroll down the posts until you find the '4shared' link
Click on that and download the TextResource.pdf
Open this and look at the Contents page for "Written documents".

Amongst these are a few scholarly papers addressing various subjects.
Some are more in depth and scholarly than others.
i.e. dissertations e.g. Todd Campo's one.

By the way, I liked that simple point you made to refute RM/RW.

zeebrook quote: "Rather a long bow to draw that the Thieme cult carries "the violent psychotic potential of the Manson cult".

Truthtesty: Not at all. It is quite an accurate illustration of the violence between the cult of Thieme and the violence of the cult of Manson. I have seen from my own experiences that thiemites often become sick violent control freaks due to Thieme teaching falsely, especially on authority. Now? Anecdotal? In the sense that it cannot be verified? Well were you born? How do you know? Were you there? Where's your evidence? Sure your body is here now but maybe you were hatched. Unless there was a film you just don't then know. But? Then maybe you were switched at birth but you don't know unless there was a camera on you 24/7. Ridiculous? Yes of course and so is your endless dismissal of witnessed unverifiable information shared on this board. This board although I and others have accurately demonstrated where Thieme was in error, this board is also about ex-thiemites recovery from Thieme's abuse by sharing their stories regardless of whether the information can be verified.

zeebrook quote: Any organisation could be said to have some level of psychotic potential.

Truthtesty: False and anecdotal. I see you have offered no evidence here.

I have seen thiemites go into absolutly horrendous rage that their "absolute authority" as a husband(As taught by Thieme) had been challenged by a rational wife. When before Thieme? They were rational.
I can clearly see why Zodini had problems with meeting women.

Zeebrook quote: It is dependent upon the individuals involved with so many personal and environmental factors that would need to be considered.

Truthtesty: Not really but let's get all the facts. Some day the families deserve to know the truth of the sickness that went on with thiemites. Again you are apparently here for damage control.

zeebrook quote: That the perpetrator of such an heinous crime had read some of Thieme's material is irrelevant unless one peruses all that the individual has read.

Truthtesty: Your not a Crime scene investigator are you? That you dismiss the Thieme psychoses connection as irrelevant just shows your feeble attempt at dismissing the sickness within the thiemites organisation as whole. You appear to be here more for "damage control" for thiemites than anything else. That blog I read said he had attended Tetalestai(Berachah sister church that worshipped Thieme) for 12. to 13 years.

Zeebrook quote: Had he read the morning paper, had he read War and Peace, had he read his morning Navigator's devotional.

Truthtesty: Had he listened to Thieme tapes day after day hour after hour so much that he became detached from reality not just from the loner taper isolation which is damaging in itself, but had he abused himself because of the content of the thieme message to the point of schizophrenia and personality disintegration and losing self-control as a thiemite trained behaviour? So that he became so isolated that he could not get rational attention from anyone INCLUDING himself! Had his personality become so low and his self image so destroyed that he decided that he WOULD GET ATTENTION BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION and that attention apparently in his mind was enough FUEL for him to carry out his atrocity.

AND WOW when it's all over he wakes up in heaven? Wow so just be an arrogant overly aggressive pig male that owns a woman and if they don't like it to blank bad. That's Thieme influence.

Zeebrook quote:Furthermore your comment that "Sodini was just a sick psycho thiemite who followed Thieme's incompetent loss of reality to the letter" begs the question. Do you know that this man was sick, do you know that he was a psycho, do you know he was a thiemite and do you know if he was following "thieme's incompetent loss of reality"? I am not defending Sodini, nor finding excuses for his actions (all of which I heartily condemn) but find your logic of linking to thieme alone without other causes illogical.

Truthtesty: I freely admit I do not know this person. But I KNOW THIEMITES. This guy fits the bill. But? Sure let's get more information. The Thieme activity in this guys life should be checked out. Did 1 or more of the women refuse to go to Tetalestai? Is that the reason Zodini lost it? Let's find out if any of the women had gone to Tetalestai. Has an any ex-thiemite talked to the police investigating this?

Zeebrook quote: My reading of this site gives me the impression that the discussion is supposed to centre on Thieme's teachings and influences that one can factually demonstrate and not utilise fatuous links.

Truthtesty: Sure we have factually debunked Thieme's deceptions many times here.

Zeebrook: So let the forum have rationale discussion and not emotive arguments that stretch beyond the factual arguments.

Truthtesty: z you dismiss too much in your pretentious academic approach. This is forum as I mentioned before is a recovery forum as well as a debunking forum. That people were harmed and can't prove it? And that the coversation should be directed by you as something that they should not talk about? You? Your being new to this forum (supposedly) would jump in and try to direct the way that this forum should be focused? Hah! Hilarious! You know nothing of counseling and letting people speak freely. I think your here for damage control for Thieme Berachah and Tetalestai. Information control hah not here pal not here.

So if you really intrested in factual debunked info on Thieme its here. Why don't you read all 150 some odd pages and get back to us?

But don't even think your going to stop us from investigating sodini.

Chickens are coming home to roost thiemites. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


Truthtesty

To Truthtesty: I am new to this forum, but felt compelled to respond to your accusations against Thieme and Tetelestai Church, of which I have been a member for 20 years. I have read your statements and wonder if you were from a household where there was abuse. Your bitterness and resentment seem to go much further than Thieme and his ordained pastors under him. Where you are off base and being distracted by your bitterness is that you are taking the focus away from the Cross of Christ, The FREE gift of Eternal Salvation for everyone to a lost and dying world, and majoring on the minors.
I was 24 years old when I started at Tetelestai Church (then called Greater Grace), after being brought up in a denomination that rarely taught me anything, except that I lost my salvation every time that I sinned. It was always an 'obligation' to go every Sunday even though my parents stopped going. It wasn't until I was married and heard Rick Knapp on the radio teaching Ephesians 2:8; (that I was saved by grace and that it was the gift of God not of works on my part, that Christ did the work), that I wanted to know more about Christ, and have been growing spiritually under Rick Knapp ever since. Your uninformed remarks regarding Sodini, showed me that you do not seek out the TRUTH before you make accusations. Sodini was asked to leave our congregation back in 2006, by one of our deacons, and Rick, for stalking a woman. This murderer made slanderous false accusations against Rick most likely out of revenge. George Sodini had no one to blame but himself for his actions. Rick and all of us were sickened by the violence that this man perpetrated on innocent victims, and prayed for the families of the victims and the entire community that was affected. I have sat under Col Thieme many times, and understand that his delivery of teaching is not for everyone. I personally, have flourished spiritually under Rick, and know that we all have Free Volition to believe in Christ or not, and to find a pastor that we choose to learn from or not. I only hope that you did find another congregation/pastor, but by the bitterness that you exemplify, my guess is that you haven't. I'll pray for you.

Thank you Orange for your comments.

Truthtesty, you seem in your rantings to be incredibly vindictive, emotionally wrought etc etc. Yes I am new to the forum only joining last Monday. In spite of your misgivings I am not trying to deflect, defend logical criticisms of Thieme's ministry. I have not debunked people's experiences all I have asked is for information that I can factually show to Thiemeites. Personal experiences appear to make no impact on Thiemeites as they will claim all sorts of things from privacy of the priesthood to judgemental attitudes etc to misunderstandings. What they will respond to is demonstrating point by point where Thieme is wrong on specific issues. Once they see that then we can move on to their experiences.

Also, I did start reading the 150 plus pages of this forum the other day, I am up to page 50. Orange has kindly referred me to a pdf resource which I have started also to read. Whilst it may get up your nose Truthtesty that I raise some issues, I apologise to the forum if I am raising old ground, but again I am new to the forum and trying to catch up.

Furthermore I am in no way trying to demean any recovering Thiemeite's experiences nor denying the reality of their emotions/feelings etc. As to the evidence of my birth I have the signed testimony of five witnesses: the obsterician, the midwife, the attending nurses (2 off), my father and my mother. My birth certificate has their signatures along with descriptions of distinguishing marks. Similar to the biblical requirements of two or more witnesses for the verification of any truth.

Also I have experienced the rantings of Thiemeites, I have in a public forum been accused of anti-Thieme bias, I have had mail directed toward me warning me off my supposed crusade, I have been requested to leave a conference for questioning issues, also I have attended Berachah, I have personally discussed issues with R.B. Thieme Jr, with one of his senior assistants and with some of his cadre of hanger ons etc so Truthtesty you are not the only one so back off the inuendos that I am some sort of closet Thiemete trying to hijack your little forum.

Truthtesty you accuse me of being "a pretentious academic". How is it to be pretentious when I have openly declared what I am trying to find? Information that can actually be used. Anecdotal information is unverifiable, and unsuable in discussions with Thiemeites. If I have the wrong forum for trying to find such information I would love someone to direct me elsewhere. In response to your ludicrous comment that "And that the coversation should be directed by you as something that they should not talk about?" I have never said or stated this. Of course they should talk about it and I have not said they shouldn't. My quest is to find factual refutations I can use.

Let us get back to academics that you, Truthtesty, seemingly despise yet you seem to support the comments made by academics when they supposedly agree with you. I do not know you at all, and for that I am thankful based on the vituperative nature of many of your posts, but you come across almost in the mould of the Thiemeites that disgust you so much unlike many of the other posts of recovering Thiemeites who seem to have a gentler spirit of positive enquiry and growth.

Wow, what a forum you have here.
I was attracted to this discussion after the news broke about the Pittsburgh Female Aerobics Class Massacre shooter who reportedly was a follower of Thieme. Certainly a "blast from the past".

It was the 60's and I was attending the University of Houston that I was a follower of Thieme and sucked up every word like a sponge. Those were heady days. I was even married in Berachah. My wife's sisters family were hard core John Bircher's who also attended Berachah. There was a Communist under every bed back in those days, and Thieme was closely associated with anti Communist causes.

Coming from a liberal Methodist background, I was enthralled by the idea that the bible could be taught in such a precise manner. Times were ripe for quick and easy answers to everything and Col. Theime had them all. Just like an old Radio Shack ad: "You got questions? We got answers." I felt at home there and I still have my old Scofield reference Bible, meticulously annotated between margins with my trusty Ripidograph pen. Every Berachan had one. I hung on every scripture exegesis. Who would have guessed that dinosaurs lived and died between the first two verses of Genesis? Evolution later became a really big sticking point for me and we had many a heated discussion about this subject.

It was also during that time while under, Thieme's teachings, that I decided to attend Dallas Theological Seminary, but came to my senses quickly and chose another career. Some of my friends, and more notably Hal Lindsey, attended DTS and became famous/infamous and rich in their own right. Lindsey and Theime fell out when supposedly, Theime used Lindsy's thesis without credit. Who knows how many DTS grads are now associated with or even members of "The Family" [tinyurl.com] but that's another story. And Lindsey is still preaching the same dispensationalism sermons on TV. Speaking of Hal Lindsey, he was married in Berachah and later divorced. "Right woman" cause?

It is unfortunate that many Theimites, still carry scars from their hair shirts to this day. I am truly sympathetic for them. But, I gained from my experience there. First of all, I received a permanent guilt free inoculation against organized religion, cults, the Catholic Church and most any other form of religion.

After three years of indoctrination I decided that it was complete and total bunk! I am now an atheist. (Please, no whining for poor me, after all if Theime is correct I'm still going to heaven, just like Sodini.) But even atheist sounds too much like a religion to me. Oh well.

It is a pointless exercise to debate the many doctrinal differences between Theime's made up doctrines and Truthtesty's 679 painfully detailed postings. And I did read most of them until I discovered he was once struck by lighting! And, I still read the bible and have an interest in its history and teachings. I just don't believe in the supernatural now. Simple as that. Perhaps the best source of information about Theimes ministry can be found here: Joe Layton Wall's PhD dissertation investigating Thieme's Doctrines [tinyurl.com]

Was it a cult? By this forums standards perhaps it was, but I never felt like I was forced to drink his cool aid. And, I would intercede to prevent my grand kids from ever going there.

It must have been after I left when Theime quit taking questions, because we asked plenty and he took time to answer them patiently. His followers were indeed committed, even fanatical, but you might say that about Joel Osteen's followers and they represent a pretty clean crowd.

Theimes "right man right woman" thesis, I would venture to say, resulted in divorces and certainly spousal abuse if you followed his creed to the letter. It certainly didn't work on my wife, even if we did divorce after 15 years, that wasn't the cause. Did it push Sodini over the edge? I doubt it. They say the same thing about kid shooters and video games. There is no conclusive proof of a connection.

I have more stories, but I wont bore you with them now.

Thanks for running this board.

Xtian

Those who are new please or just lurking, please take a few minutes and read "Juker's" testimony on Page 61 of this thread, This thing is almost to big!

Rick Ross Forum pg.61

His testimony really opened my eyes to the sometimes strange and irrational behavior of my wife. As a matter of fact she's heading to the 'bunker' tonight to get a dose of 'bible doctrine'.

To give you an example of how 'off' Bob Thieme's teaching gets to be, a couple of years ago I burned myself one evening with the pool pump (I should have know better, I was being very foolish). This wasn't a little burn mind you, but 2nd degree steam burns on both my hands (they blistered really nice). To cut down on the damage I wound up keeping my hands in a bucket of icewater for the rest of the evening (burned about 6pm). At the time our kids were pretty small 3yrs and 18 months, but since my wife had her mind set on going to 'bible class'. She told me to take a couple of Darvocets and she would be home later. Out the door she went leaving me with burned hands two small children and instructions to take some serious (pain/sedative) drugs while she was a 40 minute drive away. (She did tell me if I had any problems go see the next door neighbor)

That day I figured out that sometimes our family isn't as important as 'bible class', which was at the time a shock. I love my wife, and it breaks my heart to see her controlled by a 'wolf'.

Please pray for my family.
KCJones