Hi Orange,
You said:

Quote
orangeperuviscacha
Confessions of A Wandering Jew

[www.associatedcontent.com]

I looked at this man's testimony and it is very interesting. How on earth did you find him?

Another question:
I sent myself an email with the poge you referred to so I could enlarge the print and read it easily and when it came through my virus program said there was a suspicious attachment. I ran the protram but it did not find any problems. Could it be dangerous to keep what I sent to myself on my hard drive?


You are a real asset to "Thieme" studies!

Cheers,
Sistersoap
"

Hi zeebrook,

Quote
zeebrook
Sistersoap,

Thank you for your August 20 post. From most of my experience with Thiemeites they in fact do not know Greek or Hebrew and often cannot read plain English. One can generally overcome the criticism of Thieme issue by using passages that say we must test the spirits etc, plus the example of the Bereans. Furthermore provided you do not lambast Thieme from the outset you can get their attention, if you focus on Thieme's works (books and tapes) they listen more then you show them from the scriptures, reference books etc that what Thieme has said is not strictly correct, or blatantly wrong. Unfortunatelyif you go the other way (scripture then refer to Thieme's works) they often turn off believing you are on the attack. So show them Thieme's comments then the scripture refutation.

With respect to Greek and Hebrew it is relatively easy to get a good grammar or syntax work, look up the scripture reference at the back and then check out what is said about the verse you want to talk with Thiemeites about. As an example. In the book "Integrity of God" Thieme exegetes Romans 8:28. The page number depends on whether you have an earlier or later copy, from memory its around page 185 (do not have a copy with me now). Anyway Thieme makes the statement "No singular verb ever takes a plural subject". Show the Thiemeite this quote then show them a copy of Daniel B. Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" page 399 wherein he discusses how the neuter plural noun invariably takes the singular verb. Turn to Blass-Debrunner "A Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" and you will see similar comments. In this instance it can easily be seen that Thieme has made an error in his Greek grammar.

However you do need to be careful in this matter because Thieme's conclusion on the use of the verb sunergei and the noun/adjective panta in Romans 8:28 is justifiable. Wallace in another section demonstrates that panta could be either the subject or the object of sunergei in Romans 8:28 dependent on the textual justification for the inclusion or not of the words ho theos. The Majority Text excludes these two words.

My point is that there are ways and means to discuss issues with Thiemeites to show where his doctrine is not correct, where his logic faulters, where his language skills are debateable. These arguments, I find get through to Thiemeites, far more than anecdotes. Again I am not demeaning a person's experience of Thieme, I am simply garnering information to calmly, gently guide Thiemeites to an appreciation of the Word of God as God's divine word and not Thieme's word.

Have to go now. In another post I will give you another example, this time from the Hebrew where you can clearly and simply show Thiemeites that maybe R.B. has over shot the mark. Would do it now but do not have access to my books and notes here at this moment in time.

Zeebrook

Thanks for your examples. All such information is useful even if the Greek/Hebrew issue is not one we might feel confident in dealing with. I might look at my public library and see if any of these reference books are available to use there.


I actually do not have any personal contact with any Thieme followers. But your examples will stick in the back of my mind and I expect they can bear fruit eventually.

In dealing with Thieme followers online on various groups, would you consider joining a discussion if I feel I need more help?


Thanks for your posts.


Sistersoap

Hello prebound,

You said to Testy,

Quote
prebound

Quote

If you are as careless with information as you have demonstrated, it is highly likely that you like others have missed many of Thieme's "doctrinal" errors.

I admit that's possible. It's also possible you're so full of vinegar that you missed some things he was right about. And this is not to say that I disagree with SisterSoap's assessment of the inherent danger in mixing truth with error.

I can't really see how you can construe my quoting an obit. verbatim as being careless with information. I wasn't attempting to instigate a debate over whether Pastor Thieme "lettered" in a certain sport, back in 1932, etc. . .I was merely making you folks aware that the object of your angst and ire had died. Pardon me for using an "official" source. Okey-dokey?

take care,
prebound

Thanks for your post. I confess that I don't see anything wrong with your quoting the "official" notice of Thieme's passing. I appreciated knowing about it. The debate over any inaccuracies in it can be cleared up by simple research, and C.G. Hunt has done a good preliminary job of that in his book. It is probably the only book that we will have unless someone else decides to stick his neck out in the future. Another PhD dissertation? Maybe...

I think the opposition to a Thieme autobiography or even an "official" biography among Thieme followers is ludricous. For most of them it probably is not a question of possibly exposing any flaws or errors in Thieme's life or teaching. I think they sincerely believe his personal aversion to revealing his life in this way should be honored. Sadly it does cut us off from some valuable information.

There is really no risk to anyone in claiming that some things Thieme taught that were right. Part of the glue that keeps people stuck to his teaching is some true things that are mixed in with false things. I repeat that without this mixture a Christian would probably would not be attracted to his ministry at all.

Moreover, we don't have any real proof of Thieme's "collusiion" with any conspiracy of anti communists. IT IS A GOOD THING TO BE ANTI COMMUNIST. It was back then and it still is a good thing. The problem is making this a POINT OF BIBLE DOCTRINE. After all, communism is ANTI CHRIST. It is against God and the Bible. It is against all kinds of freedom. But the Bible offers the solution to the evil of communism and Thieme was not and is not the exclusive custodian of the Bible. And exposing the evils of communism could be a legitimate APPLICATION of what the Bible says. I don't see it as a point of Bible doctrine.

Personally I don't regard it as evil for Thieme to have made speeches against communism. When he did that we were in the midst of a very real cold WAR. We are now in a shooting war with more evil than communism, but the dangers of communism have not disappeared, they have simply been hidden by Islamic terror and other attacks. We are about to turn into a third world country because of the actions and intentions of Obama, and all the misery that goes with it....and we are in danger from communists zealously at work in central and south America, but CNN and other of its' ilk simply do not regard this as a serious issue. Actually Islam and communism are very compatible with each other. BOTH OF THEM ARE VERY ANTI FREEDOM AND ANTI DEMOCRACY.

So it is perfectly legitimate to write about things you think Thieme got right on this forum just as it is in exploring the many things that he got wrong. But I can't see that your quoting the "official" obit should cause anyone problems and accuse you of deliberately propagating error. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think I did. I am willing to be corrected if I did.

Sistersoap

prebound: truthtesty quote: If you are as careless with information as you have demonstrated, it is highly likely that you like others have missed many of Thieme's "doctrinal" errors.

prebound: I admit that's possible. It's also possible you're so full of vinegar that you missed some things he was right about. And this is not to say that I disagree with SisterSoap's assessment of the inherent danger in mixing truth with error.

Truthtesty: Relax it was just advise. Thieme was never "right" about anything, except violent propaganda speak. Dr Wall gave credit to Thieme where he thought it was due. I freely presented Dr. Wall's entire dissertation to this forum free of charge time after time.

prebound: I can't really see how you can construe my quoting an obit. verbatim as being careless with information.

Truthtesty: because Thieme was only a major in WWII. Get it? False get it? Therefore careless get it?

prebound: I wasn't attempting to instigate a debate over whether Pastor Thieme "lettered" in a certain sport, back in 1932, etc. . .I was merely making you folks aware that the object of your angst and ire had died.

Truthtesty: The point wasn't about lettering. Did you see the part where Thieme was only a Major in WWII? Also, no one is insecure about Thieme here. Thieme has been physically out of action since what 2002?3?4? Over 5 years ago. The Thieme danger is the booklets that the Sodini's of the world can get a hold of and the danger of the cult nature of Thieme's false doctrine of Reich pastor.

prebound: Pardon me for using an "official" source. Okey-dokey?

Truthtesty: Word of advise. Again don't take such a simpleton "Okey-dokey" approach to "offical" Berachah source, because it is not "official" and it is not "secure", it is not true, and it is not "okey dokey". How you succeed in not mixing truth with error is not clear, because you do not seem to question anything and you appear to just take things at face value instead of researching it. Again doublecheck your info with at least 2 other sources before posting here. Time and again Thieme tried to appear "official" like many false cults who would try to claim the truth when they do not have it.

Take care,
Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2009 09:43AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

When I say Thieme was never "right" about anything, except violent propaganda verbal speak, here is what I mean and what people should check for.

Dr. Wall: Thieme's approach, beyond his lack of biblical
evidence, is in the use of the word right. To label something or someone "right"
implies that all others are wrong. It adds an unwarranted moral dimension to the
issue of one's choice of a mate, moving such decisions from the realm of wisdom
to the area of moral choices. Furthermore, the use of the term right excludes all
possibilities for varying degrees of compatibility. One must conclude that a
couple is either perfectly compatible or they are wrong for each other. A better
set of terminology would include such terms as best, better, good, and poor
decisions relative to marriage, and would include such factors as the personalities
of the two, their degree of maturity, and the timing involved."...

[www.texaswalls.org]

Truthtesty: Dr. Wall could have also said in relation to "right pastor " "right congregation" " Furthermore, the use of the term right excludes all
possibilities for varying degrees of compatibility. One must conclude that a
couple(Pastor/congregation) is either perfectly compatible or they are wrong for each other."

I submit to the forum that Thieme's use of the word "right" was an attack and part of Thieme's corrupting self-righteous cult crusade on liberal christianity.

Jacques Ellul quote: "Almost always, it is the conviction that 'I am right' or 'my cause is the cause of justice' that triggers violence. That is, ...the moment propaganda does its work, violence is unleashed. And violence can be reduced by countering this propaganda."

Jacques Ellul (an author and a leader of resistance to Hitler)

Truthtesty: Time and again, Thieme "blitzgrieged over" the correct interpretation from greek to english for an extremist political crusade and extremist political gain. This intentionally "divided and conquered" Christians based on politics, NOT biblical truth.
"Your either with us or against us." "If not then leave! Never come back!"

Well I am against falsehoods and for the truth regardless of which political camp the truth is in.

This mental choice was somewhat "hidden". Not only to some was leaving Berachah equivalent to"leaving -od", but? To many who left, they were also a "wrong" "liberals" and "commies".

Backed up with the threat of possible violent force (Houston police) or threat of humiliation in front of everyone if you left or spoke out against Thieme in public, Thieme was propagandizing and falsely teaching in his milieu (environment), when he spoke of "right" man "right woman", "right pastor etc... for his political crusade. Thieme falsely "trained" and "reeducated daily" the false concept of false submission to the false cult authority of a false "right" pastor. Right pastor" was not true not correct. It was false propaganda for thieme's personal corrupt crusade, regardless of which Christian human practicality or what biblical truth, was crushed under the blitzgrieg tank tracks of false cult authority.

Thiemites have a very difficult time admitting Thieme was "wrong", even when they are confronted with the correct truth, even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND. One possible explanation for this is because the were indoctrinated that Thieme was "right"(as opposed to occasionally correct at times or incorrect at times) day after day, tape after tape, month after month, year after year. If a thiemite seriously took to heart what Thieme said was "right" then that unnecessarily cut off huge sources and resources of christian fellowship(including counselling) and huge sources of truth. Ex: Going to a different church if that church not fall into what Thieme considered was "right" then that church was out of the question. Though no Christian should "be afraid" to go to another church of christians or gathering of unbelievers to witness to. Extremist politics falsely intermixed with the bible is very damaging to a christian or non christian alike. When the bible says that Christians are not to fellowship with non-believers, that to me would mean that they should not spiritually fellowship with unbelievers in denying Jesus as saviour. But? That does not mean that they cannot work at work together or their humanity communicating happily with one another. How else is a Christian to persuade the unbeliever of the happiness of being Christian? If a Christian cannot relate on most every level? I think the human Christian should have faith in -od, -od's will, and -od's perfect authority for the outcome of the non-believer and the situation. Not a "reichwing blitzgrieg" prejudiced attack on the non-believeing liberal commie!, if the person at first does not have faith in Jesus. Non-believers can be conservative too.

To many thiemites, "right" and "wrong" was/is whatever Thieme's subjective political prejudiced preferences were. The thiemites own faith exercising of the senses for discernment of good and evil was interfered with, hijacked, and corrupted by thiemites viewing through Thieme's unwarranted "right" "wrong" filter.

Hexin Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Time and again, I see Thieme's corrupt political propaganda interfering with and "veiling" biblical truth, biblical wisdom, and Christian human discernment.
The delivery is over-complicated and over simplistic at the same time.

Dr. Wall: "A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his
exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example,
Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in Genesis 15:20 "satanic policy." In this
case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm. It is also an
application of his weak methodology when Thieme concludes that Romans 13:3,
4 teaches that the laws of divine establishment protect the believer and the human
race from evil (i.e. Satan's policy in the world). The passage is talking about
governmental authorities, and evil refers to harm done to people living under
these authorities. It also seems that Thieme has forced his political prejudices on
the Scriptures under the guise of the doctrine of evil. For example, he claims that
Israel's "waiting for good" in Micah 1:12 involved ignoring the word of God and
waiting for socialism.
In other words, the thrust of the passage is not that the people of Maroth
were evil for waiting for socialism, but that they were waiting as one writhing in
pain on account of the loss of the good." [www.texaswalls.org]

Christian human good of "feeding the poor" worked in faith in Jesus is not evil, it is a teaching of Jesus.


Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2009 12:55AM by Truthtesty.

truthtesty,

I agree with your assessment of:

"Thiemites have a very difficult time admitting Thieme was "wrong", even when they are confronted with the correct truth, even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND. One possible explanation for this is because the were indoctrinated that Thieme was "right"(as opposed to occasionally correct at times or incorrect at times) day after day, tape after tape, month after month, year after year. If a thiemite seriously took to heart what Thieme said was "right" then that unnecessarily cut off huge sources and resources of christian fellowship(including counselling) and huge sources of truth. Ex: Going to a different church if that church not fall into what Thieme considered was "right" then that church was out of the question. Though no Christian should "be afraid" to go to another church of christians or gathering of unbelievers to witness to. Extremist politics falsely intermixed with the bible is very damaging to a christian or non christian alike. When the bible says that Christians are not to fellowship with non-believers, that to me would mean that they should not spiritually fellowship with unbelievers in denying Jesus as saviour. But? That does not mean that they cannot work at work together or their humanity communicating happily with one another. How else is a Christian to persuade the unbeliever of the happiness of being Christian? If a Christian cannot relate on most every level? I think the human Christian should have faith in -od, -od's will, and -od's perfect authority for the outcome of the non-believer and the situation. Not a "reichwing blitzgrieg" prejudiced attack on the non-believeing liberal commie!, if the person at first does not have faith in Jesus. Non-believers can be conservative too."

What do you mean, "even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND"?

Completely agree about the indoctrination. His military background, which I highly respect toward all who serve, was used to influence, persuade and impress, and, as we know with all human leaders, corruption and error are usually a result of arrogance, which in Thieme I believe was perpetuated from his accomplishments as a military leader. I believe that the Thieme over reacted to the current political and ecclesiastical problems. ie: communism and an emphasis on the US as a client nation, the de-emotionalizing Christian living in response to Pentecostalism. That is why the church needs to be teaching and preaching Christ!

His "doctrine of privacy" does snuff out Christian fellowship and ignores the overwhelming number of passages that appeal to believers to be concerned and interested in the welfare of one another, in biblical love. Ironically, in those who pursuit doctrine, doctrine, doctrine for "maturity" have inevitably stunted their own growth because of the unbalanced and unhealthy diet of "knowlege" and no to little works. Knowledge makes arrogant.... love builds There needs to be a BALANCE. We do need to feed our souls with healthy, normal teaching from scripture AND live that in and through our and other lives.

Testy, you said:

Quote
Truthtesty
prebound: truthtesty quote: If you are as careless with information as you have demonstrated, it is highly likely that you like others have missed many of Thieme's "doctrinal" errors.

prebound: I admit that's possible. It's also possible you're so full of vinegar that you missed some things he was right about. And this is not to say that I disagree with SisterSoap's assessment of the inherent danger in mixing truth with error.

Truthtesty: Relax it was just advise. Thieme was never "right" about anything, except violent propaganda speak. Dr Wall gave credit to Thieme where he thought it was due. I freely presented Dr. Wall's entire dissertation to this forum free of charge time after time.

prebound: I can't really see how you can construe my quoting an obit. verbatim as being careless with information.

Truthtesty: because Thieme was only a major in WWII. Get it? False get it? Therefore careless get it?

prebound: I wasn't attempting to instigate a debate over whether Pastor Thieme "lettered" in a certain sport, back in 1932, etc. . .I was merely making you folks aware that the object of your angst and ire had died.

Truthtesty: The point wasn't about lettering. Did you see the part where Thieme was only a Major in WWII? Also, no one is insecure about Thieme here. Thieme has been physically out of action since what 2002?3?4? Over 5 years ago. The Thieme danger is the booklets that the Sodini's of the world can get a hold of and the danger of the cult nature of Thieme's false doctrine of Reich pastor.

prebound: Pardon me for using an "official" source. Okey-dokey?

Truthtesty: Word of advise. Again don't take such a simpleton "Okey-dokey" approach to "offical" Berachah source, because it is not "official" and it is not "secure", it is not true, and it is not "okey dokey". How you succeed in not mixing truth with error is not clear, because you do not seem to question anything and you appear to just take things at face value instead of researching it. Again doublecheck your info with at least 2 other sources before posting here. Time and again Thieme tried to appear "official" like many false cults who would try to claim the truth when they do not have it.

Take care,
Truthtesty

Anyone can get Dr. Wall's dissertation FOR FREE. You did not obtain it at any cost and pass it on to us freely, as you said.

QUOTING TESTY:
" I freely presented Dr. Wall's entire dissertation to this forum free of charge time after time.


Sistersoap

Hello truthsetufree,

Quote
truthsetsufree
truthtesty,

I agree with your assessment of:

"Thiemites have a very difficult time admitting Thieme was "wrong", even when they are confronted with the correct truth, even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND. One possible explanation for this is because the were indoctrinated that Thieme was "right"(as opposed to occasionally correct at times or incorrect at times) day after day, tape after tape, month after month, year after year. If a thiemite seriously took to heart what Thieme said was "right" then that unnecessarily cut off huge sources and resources of christian fellowship(including counselling) and huge sources of truth. Ex: Going to a different church if that church not fall into what Thieme considered was "right" then that church was out of the question. Though no Christian should "be afraid" to go to another church of christians or gathering of unbelievers to witness to. Extremist politics falsely intermixed with the bible is very damaging to a christian or non christian alike. When the bible says that Christians are not to fellowship with non-believers, that to me would mean that they should not spiritually fellowship with unbelievers in denying Jesus as saviour. But? That does not mean that they cannot work at work together or their humanity communicating happily with one another. How else is a Christian to persuade the unbeliever of the happiness of being Christian? If a Christian cannot relate on most every level? I think the human Christian should have faith in -od, -od's will, and -od's perfect authority for the outcome of the non-believer and the situation. Not a "reichwing blitzgrieg" prejudiced attack on the non-believeing liberal commie!, if the person at first does not have faith in Jesus. Non-believers can be conservative too."

What do you mean, "even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND"?

Completely agree about the indoctrination. His military background, which I highly respect toward all who serve, was used to influence, persuade and impress, and, as we know with all human leaders, corruption and error are usually a result of arrogance, which in Thieme I believe was perpetuated from his accomplishments as a military leader. I believe that the Thieme over reacted to the current political and ecclesiastical problems. ie: communism and an emphasis on the US as a client nation, the de-emotionalizing Christian living in response to Pentecostalism. That is why the church needs to be teaching and preaching Christ!

His "doctrine of privacy" does snuff out Christian fellowship and ignores the overwhelming number of passages that appeal to believers to be concerned and interested in the welfare of one another, in biblical love. Ironically, in those who pursuit doctrine, doctrine, doctrine for "maturity" have inevitably stunted their own growth because of the unbalanced and unhealthy diet of "knowlege" and no to little works. Knowledge makes arrogant.... love builds There needs to be a BALANCE. We do need to feed our souls with healthy, normal teaching from scripture AND live that in and through our and other lives.

it is very true that Thieme's training very quickly leads to an absolute blindness to any possibility of Thieme being wrong about anything whatsoever. His teaching clearly leads to extreme forms of hero worship on the one hand and to tremendous fears of ever doubting or opposing ANYTHING he ever said. Leaving was unthinkable because it was LEAVING GOD and BETRAYING the country.

You asked what did Testy mean by

"even IN THE PRIVACY OF THIER OWN MIND"?

Here is my understanding of what Testy meant.

This means in my case that I could NEVER, EVER even contemplate any notion of Thieme being wrong about anything at all. I was truly convinced that everything he said was absolute truth, it was ALL BIBLE DOCTRINE, per his effective indoctination. Once you have accepted Thieme's false claims to absolute authority and have given up reading the English Bible for yourself lest you misunderstand it (like Roman Catholicism teaches) you have NO LONGER ANY CHOICE OR ANY ABILITY TO EVEN PRIVATELY ASK YOURSELF,
"Could this be unbiblical or wrong in some way?"

This is brainwashiing. And doing it for God is anti God.

A teacher who demands absolute agreement with no posibility of an error is a tyrant and this attitude spoils everything else he says, even the "good" and "right" parts because of the rotten foundation.

I never once questioned anything Thieme said for nearly thirty years. Until....

He began to quote unbelievers like NATHANIEL BRANDEN approvingly. This was BIBLE DOCTRINE? I had some of Branden's books, and I read them. I was disturbed that Thieme would consider this compatible with Bible anything. Branden, by the way, is a protege of Ayn Rand the atheist "conservative."

But I did not leave then.

I finally just broke down and stopped functioning as a human being. The weight on me was intolerable and I did not know Thieme's teaching had a lot to do with it. It never occurred to me to tell someone about Thieme's teachings because they were, after all, RIGHT. I truly thought I was the only one who had trouble with his system.

Long after this point, it occurred to me to ask myself:

"What about all this special vocabulary and categories Thieme has invented? None of these words are actually in the Bible itself. I WONDER IF IT MEANS THE SAME THING AS TEACHING THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

BINGO.

The answer is of course, IT IS THE SAME AS TEACHING THINGS NOT IN THE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

All this was in the PRIVACY OF MY OWN MIND. I did not know it then, but that question was the first indenepdent thought I had since beginning Thieme's teaching decades before, while I was still in college. This kind of "revolutionary" and forbidden thought CANNOT ENTER THE MIND OF A CURRENT CONVINCED THIEME FOLLOWER.

He trained us not to think in this way. We COULD NOT EVEN IN OUR OWN HEADS without telling anyone else think thoughts like this. We were under the threat of DIVINE PUNISHMENT, separation from the fellowship of God and His provision for our lives, and ultimately of THE SIN UNTO DEATH if we questioned or left the teaching altogether.

In such a case, we might feel unable to confide in anyone else our private misgivings, and such thoughts I at least denied and did not follow through to their logical conclusion.

The problem was always with US, never with the TEACHING OR THE TEACHER.

That is brainwashing for you. I truly don't know if Thieme consciously thought this out and deliberately fostered this by his chosen methods, but it is certainly the effect, and completely to be expected looking at his whole body of work. The early less controversial series of messages is where all are advised to begin who are new to the teaching. The really squirrelly stuff comes in much later. By that time it is much too late to recognize and act upon the error.

Does this answer the question you asked Testy?

Sistersoap

Yes it does answer. Thank you. It is really interesting the effect that this ministry has on people.

When I was introduced to his teaching I was hungry for God's Word. I was in bible college and hungry for God's word but at the same time disillusioned by my experiences with church's and the people in them in general, which showed my attention was not where it needed to be, on Jesus! His teaching was by far, much different. As I would listen and read his material I was struck at some really thought provoking concepts that were very rarely touched on. I studied biblical greek for two yrs. in college and found some of his exegetical insight interesting but he would often make connections that I could not verify myself. Nothing really stuck out, yet. Often I would think, I like what he is teaching but is he saying, "this is the only way a person is to mature in the Christian life." Slowly I began to believe that even though the thought of it did bother me.

I think the problem is that when Thieme teaches doctrine he means the Historical, Orthodox Christian doctrine like Justification, Propitiation, Sanctification (which by the way I think that is where his teaching is really lacking.....showing our Justification through works, not just doctrine in the soul, leading to arrogance) and his development of the doctrine of options and protocols. These two doctrines get confused and merged together and take you places that I do not think God intended from His Word.

These things were a creation from a man who was very brilliant, but none the less a man, imperfect and capable of error and arrogance. Anyway, long story short, I turned my back on God because of a variety of issues in my life, Thiemes teaching had something to do with it like his privacy doctrine, my critical spirit toward those not teaching doctrine, stupidly believing I could not "get anything out of any other church not "teaching doctrine". But I take responsibility for my actions, not necessarily the bad teaching.

BUT, God in His mercy during my time of selfishness brought me back to my senses and it just clicked (kind of like a cleansing???), I saw what his teaching is and does to a person and how those under the teaching are like robots, holding on to everything that is said and taught while not giving enough thoughtful, respectful criticism to those things that are incorrect, bad, ugly and downright poisonous.

You are right about the earlier teaching. It was more traditional, sermon like. Appealing to the congregation's will, emotions, yet teaching at the same time, it was balanced. Someone else on this site mentioned that too. As time went on his teaching became more bizarre.

I believe that he is/was sincere but was caught up with his intelligence, accomplishments, and power. This is a common problem for all leaders, pastors are no exception and unfortunately more common than should be, sad but true. All the more to remind us to keep our love, devotion and desire for Christ. This experience woke me up and taught me a lot about myself. I have grown more in the Lord in the past two month's than I have my entire life. I know this because of my love for God, family and the church. It is bursting inside me!!!!!

Thank you for the reply :)

To truthsetsufree,
You are welcome!

Sistersoap