Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 04, 2008 02:21AM

Quote
Irritated
I am curious about this subject, is there anyone that is totally familiar with RB Thieme page to sum up the 139 pages for someone new? That is a whole bunch of reading haha. Thank you. Just a basic recap would be great!


Hello, Irritated,
Thanks for asking!

If you are totally UNFAMILIAR with Thieme, what brought you here?

I might also add that the posts of SpirituaLiberty are well worth perusing. You can use the search feature to find them.

But it is REALLY WORTH WHILE going back through the entire thread, even if it takes you a long long time in order to become acquainted with the characters here. I know, sometimes it makes even veterans' eyes glaze over when we have gotten behind reading posts for a while, but there are many treasures here for those who dig.

Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 04, 2008 02:22AM

Quote
kcjones
Well start here.
Page 61

Look at Juker's testimony about Bob's ministry from the 60's through the 80's. I think he sums it up pretty well, when there are no checks and balances, (in the biblical realm, like at least 2 elders, plus 2 deacons) then a very destructive church can form.

I really don't think it started out as a personality cult, but it sure ended that way.

KCjones


HI KC,
Good answer! Glad to see you...

Sis

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 04, 2008 01:44PM


I AM TICKED...I HAVE POSTED TO NO AVAIL TWO LONG POSTS to continue my series on Thieme and neither one has shown up yet....they act like I have not logged in and ihave...three times.

what is going on?

I am taking a break of a day or so, and hope you have your act together here before I continue. it is too much work to do this and find it gone down the tubes!

Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 05, 2008 12:16PM

GATE 9: PSYCYHOPATHIC ARROGANCE article by THIEME
continued:

QUOTE:
{repeat}
1) Regarding function inside the divine dynasphere, a believer’s function in gate #3 (humility gate associated with objectivity and teachability) and gate #4 (metabolization of doctrine gate) will eventuate in reaching gate #5, (personal love for God associated with spiritual self-esteem) and precipitate a complete break from unreality and initiate the beginning of true spiritual normality, including inner happiness (+H).

COMMENT:
Notice that for the first time a definite GOAL is named as being possible to reach. One must go through so many stages of so many intricate TECHNICAL NON BIBLICAL ideas one has to ask, will we ever get to something that gives me HOPE?

One's eyes glaze going through all the unproven assumptions, the special non biblical terms invented by the author and known only to the Thieme specialist. If it were Biblical words and concepts being used here, one would find them in the BIBLE itself or reference works about the Bible and its languages. But that is not the case in this article, and having been through many years of faithful attention to my daily Thieme tapes and meetings, I have to say that this is not unusual for Thieme's teachings. He goes off into non biblical territory and sometimes it seems the Bible gets totally forgotten in a maze of repetitious JARGON.

Thieme never felt obligated to explain things or reference his personal sources of information given in his teachings. He said early on that this would be a waste of his time, and not necessary. He has continued in that vein. Occasional references to outside sources, outside THIEME'S OWN HEAD, that is, have been mentioned extensively in this thread of this forum. Testy has exhaustively covered Thieme's misuse of ARNDT AND GINGRICH's theological dictionary for BLOOD OF CHRIST, the word being HAIMA. It is relevant here because Thieme claimed they supported his peculiar doctrine of the BLOOD OF CHRIST being non literal for our salvation, in other words, the literal blood of Christ was not being referenced when you see those words on the page in the Bible: the "blood of Christ" was NEVER literal, red, human blood, but it was a symbol of the sacrifice, spiritual only, not physical, sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, and the literal blood was only representative of the SPIRITUAL DEATH of Christ on the Cross for our salvation. Arndt and Gingrich DID NOT SUPPORT THIS INTERPRETATION in their dictionary, but Thieme said they did, and Testy proved this was not true. So even when Thieme does give his sources, he is subject to error and may we even say, possibly deliberate error? How else can you explain it?

but within Thieme's system, where he controls the vocabulary and the definitions, and the interpretations, it seems so consistent! so wonderfully original, we are getting information nobody has ever seen before....as if there can be no question that this is BIBLE TRUTH.

ALL OF IT IS BIBLE DOCTRINE in the eyes and minds of Thieme faithful, as if Thieme were the pope and is speaking ex cathedra.

But the special terms mean what Thieme says they mean. Only the categories invented by Thieme are recognized. AND ALL THIS ARTICLE began from ONE SINGLE VERSE IN JAMES, for crying out loud.

As for the non Biblical terms, the psychological and psychiatric terms, with the exception of the venerable and very general work THE MERCK MANUAL widely used in general medical reference, Thieme gives no sources, no references, and no definitions except his own. He ASSUMES "laws" and "principles" and gives them pretentious names when simple would do better. It is almost as if he were being paid by the word! But we know he was not.

At times, I have been forced to speculate that he was just making things up as he went along, and that is how it sounds to me sometimes. But the subject is so serious here, involving the SANITY AND THE MEDICAL CONDITION AND TREATMENT OF SERIOUS ILLNESS that a non expert ought to be using STANDARD TERMS and very clear relationships ought to be drawn between THE BIBLE and what is being claimed for the Christian believer being psychotic and unable to learn the very Bible doctrine he needs to recover from that psychosis. Advice is given about medication! Take it in order to be able to concentrate on Bible Doctrine. so you can get out of the psychotic state and begin growing again in the Thieme system of maturity.

So here we have a fairly clear statement that there is a definite process and goal and it turns out to be MORE OF THE SAME THING, only said with slightly different words.

The remedy for this psychotic arrogance is MORE OF THE SAME BIBLE DOCTRINE. IT IS SAID THAT the psychosis came on because of arrogance and rejection of Thieme's Bible teaching.

Intricate rabbit trails of definitions and repetitions of variations of the same thing being said over and over making it look like something new and necessary is offered the reader, but, LO, IT IS THE SAME THING in slightly different words!

And what is the result of this?
quote
reaching gate #5, (personal love for God associated with spiritual self-esteem) and precipitate a complete break from unreality and initiate the beginning of true spiritual normality, including inner happiness (+H). end quote

THE RECOVERY IS MENTIONED HERE for the first time:
"complete break from unreality" "beginning of true spiritual NORMALITY, including inner happiness."

In other words, once you look up the definitions of all the special jargon and find out Thieme's definitions of these words, you basically have this:

TAKE IN MORE OF WHAT I SAID,
REMEMBER IT,
CORRECTLY APPLY IT
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN,
Rebound constantly to stay "in fellowship"with God.
Assume everything I have said to you is correct.

You will finally break from that psychotic reality and begin to have true spiritual normality INCLUDING "INNER HAPPINESS."

Let's look now at Thieme's definition of INNER HAPPINESS.

He calls it plus-H.

Plus H means 'SHARING THE HAPPINESS OF GOD." So if you have this, you should be as happy as God is happy. This is a normal part of maturing as a Christian, says Thieme.

What does this really mean to normal people? If you feel good and happy today, can you assume you have the happiness of God? This is supposed to be unrelated to what happens to you and around you. So what do you do if you don't think you have this? Do you tell your parents, Mom I think I am missing out on plus H. I feel terrible! I hate what is happening around me. I am soooo depressed. She says, NONSENSE, Junior, we have plus H. we share the happiness of God because we are carrying on to the HIGH GROUND OF SUPERGRACE BLESSING. We have been to bible class every day for the last ten years. We have put in major time on this. You don't feel that way, you CAN'T. Have you GONE NEGATIVE TO BIBLE DOCTRINE, Junior? You better examine yourself carefully to see if you might be slipping into reversionism. We better take in two tapes a day now to see if that is going to help you "catch up."

{{{I say this as if a teen were thinking it but believe me the same thoughts run through adult Thieme Bible class students, too, only they don't want to talk about it. Most suffer in silent agony wondering what is wrong with THEM.}}}


Now most people understand HAPPINESS to be strongly related TO WHAT HAPPENS to you and around you. The Bible does not say a lot about it, but it does praise JOY as a part of the fruit of the Spirit. Bible Doctrine learning is WORK. But the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS A RESULT OF LIFE, God's life, received as a GIFT, and the Spirit GROWS HIS FRUIT IN YOU. You bear it to benefit those around you. Sometimes you are not even aware of it. Others usually can see it before you do. The fruit of the Spirit includes LOVE, JOY PEACE and the other things in that list. It is not something you sit down in Bible class and LEARN. THAT IS HUMAN EFFORT using human resources. And especially in the case of Thieme's teaching, it is learning what HE SAYS BIBLE DOCTRINE IS, not necessarily what is actually in the Bible.

So arriving at PLUS H shows the arrogantly psychotic believer that he is finally back on the right track and throwing off the "unreality" Thieme says is his problem. He may be making it back to 'MATURITY."

Phew.
If you can't benefit from the words of Scripture simply taught, what is likely the problem? Did God really mean for it to be so hard, so long, and so very very complicated?

And why not use BIBLE WORDS for BIBLE CONCEPTS? If the Bible has a perfectly good word for something, why not use it?

There are some good reasons why not.

If you are limited to Bible words and Bible concepts described in biblical terms, you can't go off on a tangent or even into error and heresy without someone clearly recognizing it and calling you back or at least identifying where you got off the biblical train of thought.

But if you are in unchallengeable authority, subject to no limits, or even requests for sources, then you can go where you think god is leading you. In fact, Thieme begins this lengthy article with the claim that GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT ILLUMINED THESE THINGS TO HIS MIND, and the article followed in excruciating length and infinite detail of assertions, assumptions and all kinds of non biblical diagnostics. Serious mental illness was attributed to people who do not believe what Thieme is teaching them as 'BIBLE DOCTRINE.'

And the CURE is MORE BIBLE DOCTRINE by Thieme.
And that is the READER'S DIGEST CONDENSED VERSION of this whole article. That is it in a nutshell.

NEITHER THE TEACHER NOR THE CONTENT of what is being taught over the years have anything at all to do with a person's problem. The problem is the learner. Either he neglects to do his daily duty, or he begins to doubt the absolute truth of all Thieme says. He is liable to slip into various (bogus) stages of "mental disturbance" as a result of neglecting or going negative to "bible doctrine" ending up in PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE as a result of long term negativity to what is taught.
The blame is ALWAYS on the believer, never on the teacher or what is taught. Always.

In this system you can only succeed by saying YES SIR. Whatever you say, sir. If you say you got it from the Holy Spirit, who am I to doubt that revelation?
If you say you got it from the Hebrew or the Greek, who am I to doubt what you say?

CONTINUING TO QUOTE:

3) Impersonal love gives a believer the capacity for tolerance, wipes away all legalism from his life, and gives him +H (inner happiness) as a major problem solving device that makes it possible for the believer to move on to maturity.

COMMENT:
Impersonal love definition repeated:

IMPERSONAL LOVE - Is a virtue love which emphasis the character of the subject (you) rather than the object being loved. Impersonal love emphasizes something in you rather than emphasizing something in the object of your love. A great example of impersonal love comes from God the Father in that when we were all yet sinners He loved us through the giving of His only begotten Son.

I suppose we are to understand from this that the believer develops "impersonal love" for others because of the "virtue" in himself, not because others are "lovable." This is supposed to be how God loves us. But remember, we are not God, and He is God. Our love for others is to be totally regardless of the virtue or vice of the ones lucky enough to be the object of our impersonal love? They don't know how lucky they really are, do they?

Well, God's idea of real love is spelled out in 1 Corinthians 13 and that is how God loves US because HE IS GOD. We benefit from His love for us, and eventually we are able to pass that love on to others, regardless of who or what they are. That is the idea, I presume. But why call it IMPERSONAL? It is a PERSONAL GOD. We are PERSONAL humans. It is very misleading to use this term at all in this context. And the Bible does not do so, but Thieme does, and he makes it BIBLE DOCTRINE to do so.
But to continue with the idea of "impersonal love" WIPING OUT ALL LEGALISM in your life once you have it.....


OH MY!

Lions and tigers and bears! OH MY!


To be continued.....
Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 05, 2008 03:30PM

GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE
Thieme article

COMMENTS:
Following up on the remarks I began on IMPERSONAL LOVE in my last post:

I would like to point out that Thieme's system and all groups of Thieme related meetings I have ever been in during my nearly thirty years of faithful attendance and learning what he taught made me into a first class PHARISEE. And I could not see that until long after I was out.

The PRIME DIRECTIVE (to borrow a phrase from Star Trek) in this system of teaching is THOU SHALT LISTEN DAILY AND BELIEVE EVERY WORD THIEME SAYS.

Thieme's teaching system makes what is meant to be grace into a Law.

And that is some achievement. They use GRACE this and that all over the place, but a number of doctrines make it pure legalism and it goes unrecognized completely.

All I need do to prove this is remind the reader of the subject of REBOUND and the supposed exchange of confession of sins for the forgiveness of God. It is a very common error in many Christian circles having nothing whatever to do with Thieme, but Thieme takes it to an extreme seldom seen in more orthodox groups. See the posts of SpirituaLiberty in this thread. You kick in some confession, God puts out "forgiveness" until the next time you sin, then you are in the spiritual doghouse again, and God won't talk to you or help you until you "confess." Jesus apparently did not die for those sins, for if He did, they would have been included and forgiven at the Cross. BUT WAIT, you say. The BIBLE SAYS JESUS TOOK ALL THE SINS OF ALL THE HUMAN RACE ON HIM AT THE CROSS and God judged them. That is right. He did. But Thieme says there are two kinds of forgiveness: for your past sins and for your future sins committed after you are saved. He forgave you all your past sins committed before salvation, but after salvation, you can't be forgiven till you confess each and every one.

That does not square with scripture which says that the born again Christian IS A FORGIVEN PERSON!

If all that was needed was CONFESSION, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place"

And how many of your sins had you committed when Jesus took all those sins on His body on that tree and received YOUR COMPLETE JUDGMENT FOR THEM then and there?

None.

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.

So Thieme is teaching that SOME sins were forgiven at the cross, but not all of them, because SOME of your sins you committed BEFORE you were saved, and THE REST you committed AFTER you were saved.

But God isn't limited to time as we are and He says He put all sins of all people of all time on Christ and JUDGED THEM THERE and therefore that your sins were PUT AWAY, never to see them again.

That is what He offers you in the gospel. The Apostle Paul said:


1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So God gave us this commission and an ambassadorship not in wisdom of words of men, but the Words of God to give to all:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


IF YOU HAVE BEEN MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST at salvation, on what basis do you think God is withholding your forgiveness after salvation?

To disbelieve this and to teach it so, is to waste the sacrifice of Christ and to trample it underfoot! It is to deny the very efficaciousness of His entire Cross work which can never be repeated because it never needs repeating. It was perfect. The Resurrection of Christ proves it was perfectly acceptable to the Father, and that all who are IN CHRIST have put to their account the complete forgiveness earned for them by the Son on the Cross. Not one of their sins was forgotten, even the sins of those who die denying Christ and who end up in hell were JUDGED AND FORGIVEN there and then. There is no such thing as two part forgiveness.

To divide forgiveness is to dilly dally with language needlessly. There is no partial forgiveness after the Cross. Paul says this forcefully and teaches that this truth rightly understood is a powerhouse for growth and maturity in the Christian life because it is our confidence that we can never be separated from our loving Father. it is the only position that honors His Cross Work. Nothing less than complete forgiveness bought at infinite cost and offered freely as a GIFT to all who will receive it as such is a biblical understanding of forgiveness for the Christian.

Yet Thieme divides it into classes and categories. You get all your "pre salvation sins" forgiven at salvation. But God says in His word that HE FORGAVE THEM WHEN HE JUDGED THEM AT CALVARY and not a moment later. Rejecting Christ is the only way to refuse this forgiveness. It is already accomplished. It is the victory of Christ in crucifixion, death. burial, and resurrection that is the total source of our forgiveness, not our puny "confession." Thieme's antipathy to the real shed blood of Christ may be a source of his ambivalence about forgiveness.

This two kinds of forgiveness is a devilish tool for controlling other people through fear and guilt. Many preachers KNOW THAT THIS FORGIVENESS IS COMPLETE AT THE CROSS for all who will receive Christ, but they don't want to preach it because they then will lose a familiar tool with which TO MANIPULATE THEIR CONGREGATION.

I suspect that is why it is so popular with preachers.

There is another reason too.

It gives the flesh something to glory in. Flesh glories in 'KEEPING SHORT ACCOUNTS' with God that God says THAT ACCOUNT WAS WIPED OUT AT THE CROSS! The blood of My Beloved Son was shed there as the heavy price He paid. He suffered and died in your place to wipe that sin debt out, and you want to offer Me your measly "confession" to wipe out the sins you committed after "salvation?" What kind of salvation is it that says two different things about sin at the same time? Especially when God has so clearly declared the matter of sin closed:


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Man loves to deny God his Glory and that is what is happening wherever it is taught that some sins are forgiven at salvation, while others are forgiven piece by piece, upon confession, after salvation. From God's point of view, neither is true. ALL SINS were JUDGED AND FORGIVEN at the CROSS. A human being comes into the benefit of that forgiveness when he receives Christ as his savior forsaking all fleshly means whatsoever they may be that he has trusted in excepting only in Christ by faith alone as a grace gift to him at salvation. The work was done, finished, and OVER WITH at the Cross, and confirmed by the Resurrection. God did all the work. We did all the sinning, and He did all the forgiving after Christ took ALL THE PUNISHMENT for all sins upon Himself upon that Cross. To deny this is to deny salvation is truly by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It is legalism pure and simple, and it is of the flesh, and filthy in God's sight.


And it is the cornerstone of Thieme's entire system of "bible doctrine" and no Thieme instructed person can deny this. And I clung fiercely to it because IT WAS MY CHRISTIAN LIFE. There was nothing else to do in my Christian life but "rebound." That was my only connection to God. I never had very long "in fellowship" as Thieme taught it. Who would, honestly speaking? And the reason is that it is a form of law keeping, and it does what law always does: STIRS UP SIN.

Law says, DO THIS and you shall live.

Grace says: I DID IT ALL, now you believe it, receive it, AND YOU HAVE MY LIFE in the person of my Son, Jesus Christ.

I have taken much time with this single item because it is so important.

So it is not true that "impersonal love' wipes out all legalism" in the life of the maturing believer, because Thieme's system makes this impossible. He denies Grace with every command to rebound! it is one of the essential TECHNIQUES, those famous MECHANICS he is always going on about. It is so basic, he begins every bible class and worship service with the admonition to rebound, because he teaches that you can't learn Bible doctrine until you have confessed every known sin. (Never mind the "unknown" sins....God only knows what He does with THOSE.) And legalism is the essence of do it yourself Christianity, all those mechanics and techniques where God's Word sees none.

And the legalistic nature of this system stirs up all kinds of sins of the flesh, despite mighty efforts to deny them in the congregation. One is either preoccupied with one's own sins and "keeping current" with "those short accounts" or one gives up, dives in and commences an overwhelming occupation with sinning from sheer hopelessness. It is hopeless. Rebound keeps your mind and heart occupied with sin and self with no remedy, despite all the elaborate descriptions of further growth, greater, super duper ultra supergrace maturity stages.

Balderdash.

To be continued....
Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 06, 2008 08:12AM

GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE Thieme article:


BACK TO THIEME:

QUOTE:

R. However if there has been drug involvement, and too many brain neurons have been destroyed so that there are no more microcircuits on which to print doctrine, the case is hopeless apart from God performing a miracle to manufacture additional neurons in the brain. (God can easily do this, but miracles are not generally a part of the protocol plan for the Church Age.)

COMMENT:

Miracles are not generally part of the "protocol plan of God for the Church Age." somebody tell him: GOD HAS MIRACLES ON HOLD DURING THE CHURCH AGE.

My Bible says God still does miracles when it pleases Him.

And about the drug thing, he was all for them for the "psychotic" person so he could "recover" enough brain function to sit in bible class and OPEN HIS MIND LIKE A FUNNEL AND INSERT WHATEVER THIEME SAYS AS BIBLE DOCTRINE to get his "sanity" back. The Thieme way, that is.



QUOTE:
S. The decision to become involved in any kind of drug use is the worst thing that can happen to a human being; it is chemical self-destruction.

1) Eventually, that person will become physically incapacitated, possibly reaching a vegetative state (SDB), a testimony to the disaster that can occur from the negative repercussions of the law of volitional responsibility.

2) So be warned against both drug abuse and arrogance; the two can destroy you.
T. Remember that the human brain is the vehicle God uses for your spiritual growth.

U. Psychiatric treatment requires analysis, treatment, perhaps hospitalization, and perhaps being committed to a qualified institution for effective medical treatment.


COMMENT:
I think all of us can agree on the destructive nature of many many drugs out there, including some of the legal ones. So let's move on to ask a pertinent question:


What if the pastor is arrogant?
What if he is the psychopathically arrogant person?


Thieme would say that is none of your business. it is God's business to deal with that pastor-teacher, NOT YOURS.

And if you leave because of it, does that mean you are negative to Bible doctrine and under threat of the SIN UNTO DEATH?

Yes, under Thieme's teaching.

And that is why it is so crazy.

But if you leave, it must mean he was NOT YOUR RIGHT PASTOR AFTER ALL.

Even after say, thirty years????

Yes,

That is exactly what Thieme supporters have said to me and to others like me on this very forum thread. That is another reason to read it all. So as to not repeat the stupid mistakes others have made. If you are defending Thieme here, remember, we HAVE LIKELY HEARD IT ALL BEFORE, and we believed it all before you did, most likely. We believed it just a sincerely and absolutely as you do now. We have BEEN WHERE YOU ARE. You HAVE NOT BEEN WHERE WE ARE. So listen for a change.

And if you can come up with SOMETHING THAT HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN COVERED we would LOVE to hear it from you.

It would make for a nice change of pace.

At any rate, Thieme warns about drug abuse and that you need those brain cells for learning his bible doctrine! No brain cells, no doctrine. No doctrine, no maturity. No maturity, no country. No life. Only a mediocre heaven for you, too, as a "loser" believer.


NEXT QUOTE FROM THIEME'S ARTICLE:

14. The pre-psychotic personality is the problem.

COMMENT:
It is? This is another of Thieme's assumptions that he lays on us out of the blue. I suppose he means that most of the "trouble makers" in his congregation arise from this category of believers.

We all know how fond he is of categorizing things, even those things that don't need categorizing. If we don't have his categories about some subject, no matter how tangental to the l subject at hand, we CAN'T THINK correctly about it. Thieme defenders here have emphasized over and over how important this is to BIBLE DOCTRINE.

Now I ask you, where is this about the PRE-PSYCHOTIC person IN THE BIBLE? Granted, there are plenty of passages about various kinds of sins and failures and faults, but Thieme is not even referring to those in passing. Maybe he thinks they are irrelevant. Maybe he thinks he can't do that because he has not covered those "yet" in his exegetical presentations to his congregation.

Personally I think the real reason is he thinks they are not related to what HE WANTS TO SAY so he omits them. But all his presentations are BIBLE DOCTRINE to his audiences, so this demands a higher standard than one would ordinarily think is appropriate for a preacher. Any time a preacher teaches the Bible he must be held to the standard the Bereans applied to the Apostle Paul: to search the SCRIPTURES DAILY TO SEE IF THESE THINGS ARE SO. Period.

All Thieme's lessons, services, and literature begin with the admonition to engage in a "few moments of silent prayer...to be sure you have named your sins privately to God" {cites 1 John 1:9} Then he says: "You will then be in fellowship with God, filled with the Holy Spirit, and ready to learn Bible Doctrine from the Word of God." Then in the particular book I am looking at right now, DANIEL, he goes on to give a brief gospel presentation and invitation to anyone who has never trusted in Christ to save them to do so.

Back to the "pre-psychotic" assertion. I am very far from being an expert in this field of psychology. I can use a dictionary and look up all these terms he throws around so authoritatively. I plan to at least do that with his list at the end of this article. I must say that he has not footnoted this term with his usual 'SDB' mark, meaning SEE DEFINITION BELOW in his list of terms with his definitions so I am assuming he takes for granted everyone knows what he is tallking about, or that it is not one of his technical terms. But in this article he is making SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT PEOPLE AND THEIR MINDS AND HEARTS and their SPIRITUAL WELL BEING or lack thereof. His hearers are hanging on his every word! They take him seriously and apply all that he says to themselves or others around them, not least their own families. Thieme is not shy in expecting this very thing of all his hearers. In light of this would you not think that PRECISION would be a valuable aid in learning and in avoiding misunderstanding and misapplication of "the truth?" So in lieu of a formal definition within the body of the article we have the following list of characteristics of a so-called "pre-psychotic" BELIEVER. Consider this list:

QUOTE:
A. The pre-psychotic personality is subjective, inhibited, worried, stubborn, intolerant, inflexible, and lacks a sense of humor.

B. The pre-psychotic personality is unstable and may oscillate among such things as the following: rigidity that acts as a neurotic defense, self-righteous arrogance, perfectionism, and/or the guilt syndrome.

C. The pre-psychotic personality may be irritable, peevish, querulous, complaining, unable to concentrate, depressed, and full of paranoid ideas.

peevish: irritable; fretful; cross; hard to please

querulous: 1) inclined to find fault; complaining; fretful; peevish; 2) characterized by complaining.

D. The pre-psychotic personality may be full of anxiety and may have a tendency toward hypochrondria (SDB) manifested by a morbid anxiety about his own health, accompanied by the conjuring up of imaginary illnesses.

E. The pre-psychotic personality has the ability to parlay arrogance in cosmic one into illusion and hallucination.

F. The pre-psychotic personality may possess an arrogant hypersensitivity of being slighted where slighting does not occur.

G. The pre-psychotic believer may blame others for his failures and avoids taking any responsibility for those same failures.

H. It is not surprising that arrogance becomes the catalyst for arrogant reactions such as jealousy, implacability, lack of forgiveness, resentment, bitterness, or delusions (SDB) of persecution.


COMMENT:
Well, friends, these characteristics sound to me like a kindergarten kid or younger. If this is an adult we would probably say he has not grown up yet. Mind you, this is to be applied to MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATION. The pastor does not qualify as an object of inspection by ANYONE under him. Only God can deal with his faults, imperfections, and even his psychotic or prepsychotic condition. Perhaps it is ASSUMED he could not suffer from these "symptoms" since he is studying daily in the "original languages" in the Word of God, so how could he become pre-psychotic? or "negative" to the Word of God if he is studying daily in it?

I have THE SAME QUESTION for the EARNEST STUDENT sitting "under" Thieme. If he is faithfully "taking in" his daily dose from the Colonel, how could he do anything but proceed smoothly from one level of "maturity" to another receiving in return the very happiness of God and all the other supposed rewards for getting that daily tape or lesson in from the 'pastor-teacher.'

Personally speaking I finally concluded that "rebound" does not work and it is because of what I said above giving two lengthy portions of Bible to substantiate my claim on forgiveness. As a Christian, I am A FORGIVEN PERSON because God Himself put me IN CHRIST, and Christ IN ME. The exchange took place at the moment I ceased to trust anyone and anything else except Christ and Christ alone and His FINISHED WORK UPON THE CROSS. There was no going back to the REBOUND WAY OF LIFE after that. That was the foundation of Thieme's system, and it crumbled like a house of cards. It all stands and falls upon that one teaching of his.

So his "pre-psychotic" assertion is subject to doubt by the honest reader. The list that follows characterizing this person seems to me to be a CHILDISH adult, or a childish child. But if there really is such a term in use in the psychological community please speak up! Enlighten us. Is Thieme's use of this term (and others in this article) accurate?

There is no doubt that any person in a congregation who functions as described above will be a royal pain in the rear end to all around him.

But what about the poor earnest Thieme student who sees that in all honesty sometimes he is like a few or even many of these characteristics? Will he conclude that he is slipping into a pre-psychotic condition? What about his family? Will he weigh in and accuse them of the same thing? There is no way for him to accurately know this given the authority Thieme wields in his mind.

What the pastor says is BIBLE DOCTRINE. And if Thieme has not said it, it probably is not true. One thing is CERTAIN:

He is FEARFUL of slipping into any of these awful conditions
his pastor is talking about and he will try mightily to meet all his demands in order to avoid the terrible consequences he is sure will follow doubting anything Thieme has told him in Bible class or on various media now available.


To Be Continued....
Sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 08:19AM by sistersoap.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 06, 2008 08:55AM

BACK TO THIEME ARTICLE:
GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

QUOTE:

15. Locked-in arrogance also results in schizophrenia.


COMMENT:
It does? I am sure the medical community would be very interested in seeing your research.


A. Basically, schizophrenia is loss of contact with reality by the disintegration of the personality.


COMMENT:
Various gleanings from online mental health glossaries:
Schizophrenia
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by "positive" and "negative" symptoms. Psychotic, or positive, symptoms include delusions, hallucinations, and disordered thinking (apparent from a person's fragmented, disconnected and sometimes nonsensical speech). Negative symptoms include social withdrawal, extreme apathy, diminished motivation, and blunted emotional expression.

from a different glossary:

In spite of its name, schizophrenia does not involve a 'split personality', and should not be confused with disassociative identity disorder as it often is in literature, film and other forms of popular culture. There is also no association of schizophrenia with a predisposition toward aggressive behavior. And, not all people with schizophrenia are psychotic, although it is such a state which usually brings a person with schizophrenia to the mental health community.


CONTINUING THIEME'S ARTICLE:

B. An erratic sequence of behavior in the schizophrenic Christian is ambivalence, having simultaneous attraction toward and repulsion from an object, a person, or an action. It's a love and hate, affection and hostility function.

C. The schizophrenic Christian may be full of hallucinations which are expressed in ambivalent arrogance, in that the Christian may deny or reject a lust or desire, but he expresses that lust or desire through delusion and hallucination.

D. Schizophrenia may explain how persons consciously resist an evil impulse, but at the same time under demon influence, become involved in other evil things.

E. Psychopathic ambivalence is one of the problems of schizophrenia.

1) Ambivalence is generally defined as uncertainty of fluctuation, especially when caused by inability to make a choice.

2) In spiritual ambivalence, the believer cannot decide between Bible doctrine and the cosmic system.

COMMENT:
Some definitions:
COSMIC ONE - Consists of grieving the Spirit. In Cosmic one the believer becomes involved with sin or preoccupation with self causing the believer to sin hence exit the pre-designed plan of God (PPOG). Once in cosmic one the believer only need rebound (1Jo 1:9) to get back in fellowship with God!

COSMIC TWO - Consists of quenching the Spirit. This is man's exit from the pre-designed plan of God by way of antagonism toward God and the plan of God. Cosmic two entails more than sin per se in that it moves into evil. Evil is more than sin, it is a system of thought based on disputes, rejection and contradiction to the Word of God. Evil attempts to frustrate the grace policy of God. This "human" viewpoint takes more than mere rebound to re-enter fellowship with God, it requires recovery as well! recovery being the cleansing of the mind through consistent inculcation of the accurate teaching of the Word of God!

COSMIC SYSTEM - Involves both cosmic one and cosmic two entails the over all objective of Satan in using mankind to prove his superiority over God. The cosmic system is the devil's multifaceted policy for achieving his goal by way of human viewpoint projected through the world system.


QUOTING THIEME AGAIN:

F. Ambivalence may also be defined as the simultaneous desire to say or do two opposite things.

G. Psychologically, ambivalence is the coexistence of positive and negative feelings toward the same person, object, or action.

H. An ambivert (SDB) is a person whose personality type is intermediate between extrovert and introvert, possessing some tendencies of each.

COMMENT:
Not a mental illness!


QUOTE:
I. In psychopathic ambivalence, the psychopathic personality lives in a world of fantasy with unrestrained expressions of lust and arrogance related to the cosmic system. As a result, he can reject his evil and sinful experience, moral degeneracy and immoral degeneracy in the world of reality.


COMMENT:
Dare I suggest that we have many public figures who do this seemingly without a qualm expressed? A certain recent President of the United States comes to mind.


QUOTE:
J. This arrogant ambivalence finds in the fantasy self-justification for sin and evil done in the world of reality, therefore, retreat from morality and virtue of the world of reality results in justifying one's actions of sin, evil, and moral or immoral degeneracy in the world of fantasy, using the world of fantasy to justify the evil functions of life.

16. Inevitably, suicide often becomes the answer to psychotic arrogance. Two categories of psychotic arrogance are vulnerable to suicide: the manic-depressive and the schizophrenic.

A. The manic depressive's mental disorder is characterized by alternating extremes of excitement and depression.

B. The schizophrenic's condition is characterized by withdrawn, bizarre, and sometimes delusional behavior, plus intellectual and emotional deterioration.

C. Since believers who live extensively in the cosmic system are prone to these two categories, it becomes obvious that Christians can and do commit suicide.

D. Certain believers whose residence in gate #1 of cosmic one, if unchecked, become prone to manic depressive or schizophrenic activities, and in certain cases, they do commit suicide.

E. However, the Christian who commits suicide cannot lose his salvation.

1) There is no sin or failure that the believer can do to cancel the fifty-one irrevocable things he receives at the point of faith in Christ.


COMMENT:
Now we reach a crowning achievement in conflicting teachings within the Thieme system.

It SEEMS quite conventional to affirm the eternal security of the believer here. Thieme says NO SIN OR FAILURE can cancel the FIFTY ONE IRREVOCABLE THINGS he receives at the point of faith in Christ, that is, at the point he is saved, or born again.

I thought I could quickly find the "fifty one things" the believer is given at salvation, but I could not. I would like for anyone who can find them to POST THEM to me somewhere in this series or responding to this series. I would like to see if one of them is FORGIVENESS OF SINS....

But it seems inconsistent for Thieme to say NO SIN can lose a person his salvation for which Christ died to obtain, yet an UNCONFESSED SIN in the life can "lose one fellowship" with God. Thieme teaches that confessed known sins are forgiven, but unknown unconfessed sins are WHAT? He does not say, and one must assume that for some reason, IGNORANCE OF SIN OR PERHAPS FORGETFULNESS IS AN EXCUSE. But we know that is not true from Scripture. All sins are equally sinful. Some have worse consequences in this life than others, but all it takes is one sin to make one a sinner. If confession of KNOWN SINS is necessary to obtain forgiveness, how is it a suicide's last sin is automatically forgiven?

Maybe this is one of those things in his teachings that we are not supposed to notice. Certainly we are not going to ASK ABOUT IT. Just like we aren't going to ask about a psychopathic pastor.

The good news is that ALL SINS WERE FORGIVEN AT THE CROSS. A Christian who commits suicide has that sin included in that action by God. See the verses I gave for that above.

A person committing suicide certainly can't confess any sin associated with that act and received forgiveness for it. So if God "automatically" forgives him for it under those circumstances, which would be the greater of the two consequences of sin, loss of salvation, why does God withhold the lesser benefit, "fellowship," in this life for failure to confess?

QUOTE:
2) While suicide is a maximum expression of arrogance, it does not cancel the saving work of our Lord on the cross.

3) Every suicide is a sin, but it is a sin for which our Lord was judged on the cross.

COMMENT:
As I said above, let's compare the two consequences of sin in the Thieme system. First as a saved person, unconfessed sin in the life gets one "out of fellowship with God." But if that same saved person commits suicide he can still count on being saved at last even though his act deprives him of the chance to confess that last sin. Why? If God can and does forgive that last unconfessed sin, then He CAN AND DOES FORGIVE UNCONFESSED SINS IN THE LIVES OF BELIEVERS.

Now I am not saying that this is a "license to sin." None of us needs a license. We do sin without one. But the truth is the truth or it is not true at all. If God's word clearly says all sins were judged and done away with in the sight of God at the Cross, and this sacrifice was accepted by the Father then and there, and the resurrection of Christ proves this FINALITY OF THE CROSS in God's dealing with sin, THEN THIEME'S treatment of "rebound" and the confession obsession he drills into his students is BOGUS.

God does not forgive us in exchange for our measly confessions! He forgave us at the Cross of his Son Jesus Christ and He was perfectly satisfied with that complete final sacrifice. He is not now forgiving sins because we confess our sins. When the Christian sins, he should IMMEDIATELY THANK GOD that he has been forgiven because of what Christ did for him at the Cross, and ask the Father, is there anything you want me to do about this? In my personal experience, most of my sins arise because I have been thinking some wrong thing about God. Some thing that is not true about Him that motivates me to act independently of Him to accomplish my agenda for the moment instead of His. I do not fear to go to Him IMMEDIATELY! I know He has forgiven me my sin, so there is NO BARRIER between us unless I have erected a phony one in my own mind. And that is what was going on within me as a result of this teaching of Thieme's about rebound.

QUOTE:
F. Certain believers may take their own lives.

1) Motivation for doing so can be found in gate #1 of cosmic one, namely, motivational arrogance.

2) Such things as bitterness, jealousy, hatred, self-pity, revenge, implacability, and vindictiveness can motivate suicide, all the result of cosmic involvement and preoccupation with self.


17. Psychiatry has developed a whole system of “why’s” that provide people with self-justification (here’s the reason why I did what I did) for their psychopathic behavior (also referred to as sociopathic (SDB) behavior.)

A. The problems with this approach:

1) The plan of God does not permit self-justification as a rationale for sociopathic/psychopathic behavior.

2) This approach violates the law of volitional responsibility and places the blame on someone else or something else.

B. Sociopathic/psychopathic behavior is the result of one’s own bad decisions.


COMMENT:

I am sure the forensic experts are waiting to hear the details.


BACK TO THIEME'S ARTICLE:

18. Egocentricity is typical in psychopathic arrogance.

A. The cult (SDB) of preoccupation with self reaches its peak in psychopathic arrogance.

B. It relates everything to self, which eventually divorces that person from reality.

C. The difference between normal and abnormal is found in one word--reality.


COMMENT:
But Thieme has broken up "normality" and "reality" into a number of categories previously in this article alone, not counting other teachings he has presented over the years. Nothing prevents him from changing, elaborating, or adding to these according to the "illumination of the Holy Spirit" or even a new "doctrinal breakthrough" in the future. Except now, of course, his teaching days are over due to Alzheimer's Disease.


To be continued...
Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 06, 2008 09:16AM

GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE article of Thieme's
continued



COMMENT:
This "growing and changing" feature of Thieme's was one of the most frustrating to me. He kept upping the ante, so to speak, and changing the goal, moving it further and further along the road to that magical condition, MATURITY.

What does Scripture say about growing for the believer?

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Reading these words ought to contrast sharply with the article at hand. God has promised to bless His Word, and He faithfully does so. He has not promised blessing for the Words of Men, especially men who add to, change, and take away from the Word of God as does Thieme. I think this article is a good example of MASSIVE ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD. Spoken in bible class, whatever Thieme teaches his flock becomes BIBLE DOCTRINE. to his followers.


CONTINUING TO QOUTE THIEME:

19. As arrogance increases, it will eventually affect every facet of a person’s life, until there is total divorcement from reality, so that in the extreme cases of demonization (SDB), you have a psychopathic personality.

20. Demon possession and demon influence are both related to psychopathic behavior. Demon possession is the focus of Mark 5:1-20.



COMMENT:
So here at the end of the article, Thieme throws in a gratuitous mention of DEMONIZATION. I thought ARROGANCE was the culprit. How can one rely upon the teachings of such a man as this who throws out such remarks and then is inconsistent with what he has just finished telling us. It is implied that demonization is related to psychopathic behavior. Again, I am sure the experts are waiting to see the research on this. No question that demonized people sometimes demonstrate what appears to be psychopathic behavior. But this is BIBLE DOCTRINE from God through His servant, R.B.Thieme Jr. Ought it not to be clear and to the point, and not needlessly confuse and frighten the sheep?

Or is confusion and fear a deliberate tool?

I doubt very much that Thieme set out to scare his flock. But it comes in handy when you want to "help" them stay on track with God.

{{{end of main text of document}}}

So that is the end of Thieme's article. All that remains now is his list of definitions at the end of it which are referenced in the body of the text by SDB, "See Definitions Below." I won't comment on each and every definition.

I would be grateful if any expert in the psychology field could enlighten us with professional knowldege of how Thieme has used the terms in this article related to their field of expertise. I think a lot has been thrown around without an accurate idea of their definition. Even experts disagree widely in this field and that is one of my points. Thieme seems to throw terms around with his own views assumed to be correct. Certainly his listeners accept his every word as if it were in fact BIBLE DOCTRINE because HE SAID IT.

HE COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING, COULD HE?

Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: sistersoap ()
Date: July 06, 2008 09:39AM

ADDENDUM TO THIEME ARTICLE GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

QUOTE:

DEFINITIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS DOCUMENT:

Definitions Associated with This Document

abnormal: Deviating from normal.

ambivert: An ambivert is a person whose personality type is intermediate between extrovert and introvert, possessing some tendencies of each.

antithetical arrogance: Antithetical arrogance occurs when “Person A” reacts toward a circumstance of life with some form of arrogance, and “Person B,” often a loved one, reacts with an opposite form of arrogance toward the arrogance of “Person A” so that a solution is never reached by either party.

antisocial personality: A type of personality disorder characterized by disregard of the rights of others. It usually begins prior to age 15. In early childhood there are lying, stealing, fighting, truancy, and disregard of authority. In adolescence there are usually aggressive sexual behavior, excessive use of alcohol, and use of drugs. In adulthood these behavior patterns continue with the addition of poor work performance, inability to function responsibly as a parent, and inability to accept normal restrictions imposed by laws. This type of personality disorder is not due to mental retardation, schizophrenia, or manic episodes. It is much more common in males than females.

character: The total qualities, especially those of the personality, thought, and morality, as evidenced from an individual’s speech, writings, and actions, that distinguish one person from another.

characteristic: The trait or character that is typical of an individual.

compensation: Escape from the consciousness or revelation of an inferiority by accomplishment resulting from compensatory ambition. A defense mechanism. Ex.: The short man may strut. The incompetent may brag.

conflict: (1) Opposing action of incompatibles. (2) In psychiatry, the conscious or unconscious struggle between two opposing desires or courses of action. A technical term applied to a state in which social goals dictate behavior contrary to more primitive (often subconscious) desires.

cult: devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for a person, principle, etc., especially when regarded as a fad: as the cult of nudism.

defense mechanism: A method of unconscious behavior used to resolve or conceal conflicts or anxieties. Ex.: compensation; denial; projection.

demonization: There are two categories of demonization. demon influence or demon possession. It can be said that demonization has occurred in the life of a person who is demon influenced. It can be said demonization has occurred in the life of a person who is demon possessed. Demonization can occur in both believers and unbelievers, however, the believer can only be demon influenced, and never demon possessed, but the unbeliever can be demon influenced or demon possessed.

denial: Refusal to admit the reality of, or to acknowledge the presence or existence of something; keeping out of conscious awareness anxiety-producing realities. A defense mechanism.

delusion: A false belief brought about without appropriate external stimulation and inconsistent with the individual’s own knowledge and experience. Seen most often in psychoses, in which patients cannot separate delusion from reality. Differs from hallucination, in that hallucination involves the false excitation of one or more of the senses. The most important delusions are those that cause persons to harm others or themselves.

depression: Mental depression characterized by altered mood. An estimated 3% to 5% of the world experiences depression on any given date. There is loss of interest in all usually pleasurable outlets such as food, sex, work, friends, hobbies, or entertainment. Diagnostic criteria include presence of depressed mood every day, markedly diminished interest or pleasure in most or all activities, and 3 or more of the following: (1) Poor appetite or significant weight loss; or increased weight gain. (2) Insomnia or hypersomnia. (3) Psychomotor agitation or retardation, (4) Feeling of hopelessness. (5) Loss of energy, or fatigue. (6) Feelings of worthlessness, self-reproach, or excessive or inappropriate guilt. (7) Complaints of or evidence of diminished ability to think or concentrate. (8) Recurrent thoughts of death, suicidal ideation, wish to be dead, or attempted suicide.

disease: Literally the lack of ease; a pathological condition of the body that presents a group of clinical signs and symptoms and laboratory findings peculiar to it and that sets the condition apart as an abnormal entity differing from other normal or pathological body states. The concept of disease may include the condition of illness or suffering not necessarily arising from pathological changes in the body. There is a major distinction between disease and illness in that disease is usually tangible and may even be measured, whereas illness is highly individual and personal, as with pain, suffering, and distress. A person may have a serious disease such as hypertension but no feeling of pain or suffering, and thus no illness. Conversely, a person may be extremely ill, as with hysteria or mental illness, but have no evidence of disease as measured by pathological changes in the body.

fantasy: The mechanism of creating in one’s mind that which is unreal and may be disordered and weird; may also be creative.

fragmented life: Every believer has an old-sin-nature, therefore, by analogy, every believer is a walking hand grenade. The grenade is the old-sin-nature, and the pin of the grenade is negative volition. The moment the believer makes a choice to succumb to the influence of his old-sin-nature, he has pulled the pin on the grenade, causing it to explode, and thereby fragmenting his life. The fragmented life is clearly evident by noting the form(s) of arrogance manifested by the believer in his varied life situations. The form(s) of fragmentation move in the direction of the believer’s old-sin-nature’s trend--either asceticism or lasciviousness. The fragmented life produces immediate involvement in either cosmic dynasphere #1 or cosmic dynasphere #2 and produces immediate entrance into reversionism.

hallucination: A false perception having no relation to reality and not accounted for by any exterior stimuli. May be visual, auditory, or olfactory. Judgment may be impaired and the patient will not be able to distinguish between the real and the imagined.

hypochondria: Abnormal concern about health with false belief of suffering from some disease.

hypochondriac: The person who suffers from hypochondria.

ideation: The process of thinking; formation of ideas. It is slow in dementias, depressions, and other organic diseases, and in narcotic intoxications, but quickened in the early stages in some types of intoxications. It is unduly active in manic depression states.

illusion: Inaccurate perception, misinterpretation of sensory impressions, as opposed to hallucination, which has no source in fact. Vague stimuli re conducive to the production of illusions, but essentially it is a disorder of ideation. If an illusion becomes fixed, it is said to be a delusion.

illusion, optical: A visual impression that is inaccurate wit what is available to be seen.

locked-in arrogance: locked-in arrogance is an attitude of arrogance as opposed to an arrogant blip on the screen (infrequent manifestations of arrogant behavior).

mental disorder: An imprecise and quite general term that may be described briefly as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern typically associated with either a distressing symptom or impairment of function. It is important to bear in mind that different individuals described as having the same mental disorder are not alike in the way they react to their illness and how they will need to be treated.

mood: A pervasive and sustained emotion that may have a major influence on a person’s perception of the world. Examples of mood include depression, joy, elation, anger, and anxiety.

mood disorders: A group of disorders in which the disturbance of mood is accompanied by full or partial manic or depressive syndrome.

mood swings: Periods of variation in how one feels, changing from a sense of well-being to one of depression. This occurs normally, but may become abnormally intense in persons with manic depressive states.

neurosis: (The definition of this term is controversial as the world would attempt to define it, therefore, the following definition is one that is selected from among the world’s definitions that most closely defines the term from a doctrinal point of view.) An unconscious conflict that arouses anxiety and leads to maladaptive use of defense mechanisms that result in symptom formation. TREAT: Psychotherapy, tranquilizers, and sedatives. It must be remembered that in general, a symptom due to a neurotic reaction to a situation is just as real to the patient as if it were due to organic disease. Usually such a symptom is more difficult to treat than it would be if due to organic disease.

Note: This last sentence is extremely important to our understanding. The world is acknowledging that it is far more difficult to recover from locked-in arrogance than it is to deal with manic-depression whose etiology is a lithium imbalance.

neurotic: (1) One suffering from a neurosis; (2) nervous.

neurotic disorder: A mental disorder in which the predominant disturbance is a symptom or group of symptoms that is distressing the individual and is recognized by that person as being unacceptable, undesirable, and alien (ego-dystonic). Reality testing is grossly intact and behavior is socially acceptable. This disorder does not imply that there is a special etiological process.

normal: (1) Standard; performing proper functions; natural; regular. (2) In psychology, free from mental disorder; or of average development or intelligence.

officious: offering unnecessary and unwanted advice or services; meddlesome.

organic disease: Disease resulting from recognizable anatomical changes in an organ or tissue of the body.

paranoia: This term indicates a person who shows persistent persecutory delusions or delusion jealousy; emotion and behavior appropriate to the content of the delusional system; the disorder has been present at least one week; symptoms of schizophrenia such as bizarre delusions or incoherence are present; no prominent hallucinations; a full depressive or manic syndrome is either not present or is of brief duration; the illness is not due to organic disease of the brain. This disorder usually occurs in middle or late adult life and may be chronic, often includes resentment and anger that may lead to violence. These people rarely seek medical attention. They are brought for care by associates or relatives.

delusional systems:
erotomatic paranoia: A form of paranoid delusion that one is loved by another. The delusion is more nearly one of romantic or spiritual love, rather than physical; the object is usually someone who is of a higher status or famous, but may be a complete stranger.

jealous paranoia: The unfounded conviction that this person’s spouse or lover is unfaithful.

My Note: It all begins with jealousy and suspicion. Call it what it is, brethren—jealousy and suspicion leading to paranoia—a psychopathic disorder.

litigious paranoia: Paranoia in which this person institutes or threatens to institute legal action because of imagined persecution.

somatic paranoia: The delusion that one’s body is malodorous, or infested with an internal or external parasite, or that the body is misshapen or is unduly ugly.

paranoid ideation: Suspicious thinking that is persecutory, accompanied by feelings that one is being harassed, treated wrongly, or being judged critically.

personality: The unique organization of traits, characteristics, and modes of behavior of an individual, setting the individual apart from others and at the same time determining how others react to the individual. Personality refers to the mental aspects of an individual, in contrast to physique.

personality disorders: These conditions exist when an individual repeatedly uses certain coping mechanisms in an inappropriate, stereotyped, or maladaptive fashion. A large number of personality disorders are recognized. Some are paranoid, schizoid, histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, borderline, avoidant behavior, dependent behavior, compulsive, and passive-aggressive personality disorders.

projection: Distortion of a perception as a result of its repression, resulting in such a phenomenon as hating without cause one who was dearly loved, or attributing to others one’s own undesirable traits. A defense mechanism. Characteristics of the paranoid reaction.

psychoneurosis: Emotional maladaptation due to unresolved unconscious conflicts. This leads to disturbances in thought, feelings, attitudes, and behavior. There is little, if any, loss of contact with reality, but the patient’s effectiveness in performing his or her usual responsibilities is handicapped. Psychoneurosis is a major category in classifying mental illness and is classified according to symptoms that predominate. The patient usually recognizes that the altered thoughts and feelings are abnormal and indeed unwelcome. This is in contrast to the patient with a psychosis or character disorder.

psychopathic: (1) Concerning or characterized by a mental disorder; (2) Concerning treatment of mental disorders; (3) abnormal.

My note: In this document, the use of the term psychopathic may either refer to the neurotic behavior or the psychotic behavior, the distinguishing difference being divorcement from reality. Psychotic behavior is completely divorced from reality.

psychopathic(includes but distinguishes the latter as divorced from reality):
5neurotic
6psychotiic

psychopathic personality: An obsolete term. See antisocial personality.

My note: In this document, the use of the term psychopathic personality may either refer to the neurotic psychopathic personality or the psychotic psychopathic personality, the distinguishing difference being divorcement from reality. The psychotic psychopathic personality is completely divorced from reality.

psychopathic personality (includes but distinguishes the latter as divorced from reality):
7neurotic psychopathic personality
8psychotic psychopathic personality

psychopathy: Any mental disease, especially, one associated with defective character or personality.

My note: In this document, the use of the term psychopathy includes neurotic psychopathy and psychotic psychopathy, the distinguishing difference being divorcement from reality. In psychotic psychopathy, the person is completely divorced from reality.

psychopathy (includes but distinguishes the latter as divorced from reality):
9neurotic psychopathy
10psychotic psychopathy

psychosis: A term formerly applied to any mental disorder, but now generally restricted to those disturbances of such magnitude that there is personality disintegration and loss of contact with reality. The disturbances are of psychogenic origin, or without clearly defined physical cause or structural change in the brain. They usually are characterized by delusions and hallucination, and hospitalization is generally required. This condition is manifest in the behavior, emotional reaction, and ideation of the patient, who fails to mirror reality as it is, reacts erroneously to it, and builds up false concepts regarding it. Behavior responses are peculiar, abnormal, inefficient, or definitely antisocial. All this does not include amentia because defective intelligence merely lessens comprehension of reality but does not distort it. The psychopathic personality reacts badly because of intrinsic emotional differences playing upon an undistorted world of reality.

My note: In this document, neurosis and psychosis are both considered psychopathic conditions, but psychosis is a more severe condition than neurosis.

psychosis (includes but distinguishes the latter as divorced from reality):
11neurosis
12psychosis

psychotic: Pertaining to or affected by psychosis.

My note: In this document, neurotic and psychotic are both considered psychopathic conditions, but psychotic is a more severe condition than neurotic.

psychotic (includes but distinguishes the latter as divorced from reality):
13neurotic
14psychotic

real: existing or happening as or in fact; actual, true, objectively so, etc.; not merely seeming, pretended, imagined, fictitious, nominal, or ostensible. 2) authentic, genuine. 3) in philosophy: existing objectively; actual (not merely possible or ideal), or essential, absolute, ultimate (not relative, derivative, phenomenal, etc.)

reality: 1) the quality or state of being real. 2) a person or thing that is real; fact. 3) the quality of being true to life; fidelity to nature. 4) in philosophy: that which is real.

reality principle: Awareness of external demands and adjustment in a manner that meets these demands, yet assures continued gratification.

reality testing: The attempt by the individual to evaluate and understand the real world and his or her relation to it.

schizophrenia (schizophrenic disorders): A group of related disorders of unknown etiology in which there is a special type of disordered thinking, affect, and behavior.

sociopathic behavior: antisocial behavior, especially manifested through an antisocial personality.

souls right lobe: This is the spiritual heart. The spiritual heart has seven compartments and is referred to as the right lobe of the soul’s mentality or as the soul’s stream of consciousness. The seven compartments of the soul’s mentality: 1) memory center; 2) frame of reference; 3) vocabulary storage area; 4) categorical doctrinal storage area; 5) conscience; 6) the momentum compartment or the compartment of spiritual growth; and 7) the wisdom compartment or the launching pad.

sublimation: Sublimation substitutes a higher social goal that gratifies the infrasocial drive by replacement, rather than going to the opposite extreme in a camouflaging manner.

trait: A distinguishing feature; a characteristic or property of an individual.
unreal: not real or actual; fantastic; imaginary; fanciful; visionary; insubstantial.

unreality: 1) the state or quality of being unreal. 2) something unreal. 3) a tendency to be visionary or fanciful.

vegetative state: An imprecise term indicating a patient who was previously comatose, but whose eyes are now open and give the appearance that he or she is awake. It is properly characterized as a severe dementia due to global damage to the cerebral cortex. There is complete inability to respond to stimuli or to communicate.
END OF ARTICLE BY THIEME

Posted by Sistersoap

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by: jr ()
Date: July 08, 2008 11:51PM

Hi i'm from Philippines i was a taper of this ministry since 1990 and my wife since 1980's. i'd like to share some comments about the impact of this ministry to my life as well as my own conclusion to this doctrinal teaching. last year my wife and i deceided to stop listening to this kind of teaching, we both have obeserved a each other that negative (evil) was developed in our character, through rbthieme's teaching there's a great danger to become an "extremist" a judgemental character, self centered, arrogance and pride, no love and compassion. i can say this because of my involvement in some doctrinal churches in the philippines this are generally the product i've observed not because of the word of God but the result of tremendous extraction of the word of God resulting to distortion. i was given a chance to visit the doctrical church in massachussets i thought that this could be different or better that the doctrinal churches in the philippines, to my surprise it's even worst a church service that has no reverend for God during the service, undisciplined, it looks like a regular school class (secular) i was even humiliated when i was asking more material to bring it home, it was the turning point of my life that i decided to stop listening to this kind of teaching. in listening to some of the preacher like: David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, John MacAthur my eyes was open, i've found out that it's all about Christ, our relationship to Christ, to yield in Christ then it will manifest to other people. in docrtinal teaching there's a danger that the knowlege becomes the replacement of Christ. in doctrinal there's a danger to have the knowledge but an "EMPTY HEART"
one of the past preacher used to say that "KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT LOVE IS SIMPLY IGNORANCE"



Quote
orangeperuviscacha
Greetings,

i'm not expecting much, as i realise that this group generally flies under the radar. The church is called Berachah Church in Houston, Texas.
I am searching for people who have had a background in this church, also people known as 'tapers' across the U.S.
I am looking to collect ex-members thoughts on their time under 'the Colonel'.

Options: ReplyQuote


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.