Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
DJane
()
Date: June 11, 2008 01:18PM
I went to Berachah from the fifth grade until I was in my thirties. I have always been very interested in religion/spirituality. I ordered and studied the volume set and studied Chafer's Sytematic Theology when I was in my twenties.
I reached a time in my 30's (in the 90's that I just couldn't listen to it anymore). I realized many things that were said were a man's personal opinion and had adversely affected my career decisions and life decisions. In particular, I had a hard time listening to the declaration that mental illness is caused by spiritual depravity. I did not care to go to church and hear the condemnation and judgement, anymore. I don't believe he ever understood that love is freedom giving.
In addition, I had begun to read about control issues and abuse of power around that time. The book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans was very eye opening.
On a positive note - I do have to say that it gave me a foundation that many people don't have. After I no longer attended, I simply began to follow my curiosity. When I had a question I looked for an answers. Before I studied or read something unfamiliar I prayed that I be led to the truth. I found a book that is about practicing spirituality. When I first read it, I thought THIS is truth. It resonated with my soul. Needless to say, I am along way from the "religion" of my parents and have become much more inclusive. Inclusiveness is growth, I believe.
DJ
I reached a time in my 30's (in the 90's that I just couldn't listen to it anymore). I realized many things that were said were a man's personal opinion and had adversely affected my career decisions and life decisions. In particular, I had a hard time listening to the declaration that mental illness is caused by spiritual depravity. I did not care to go to church and hear the condemnation and judgement, anymore. I don't believe he ever understood that love is freedom giving.
In addition, I had begun to read about control issues and abuse of power around that time. The book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans was very eye opening.
On a positive note - I do have to say that it gave me a foundation that many people don't have. After I no longer attended, I simply began to follow my curiosity. When I had a question I looked for an answers. Before I studied or read something unfamiliar I prayed that I be led to the truth. I found a book that is about practicing spirituality. When I first read it, I thought THIS is truth. It resonated with my soul. Needless to say, I am along way from the "religion" of my parents and have become much more inclusive. Inclusiveness is growth, I believe.
DJ
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 12, 2008 10:34AM
Welcome Djane,
Thanks for sharing. I read "Combatting cult mind control" by Steven Hassan. To me that was an eye opener.
After you studied Chafer did that seem to help in anyway? I ask because here I try to show the differences and similarities between Thieme and Chafer(among other authors). I am often shocked at the differences and the amount of differeces between Chafer and Thieme. I am also shocked at Thieme's shoddy research from his quoted sources. I am also shocked at what truth Thieme hid. I also have proven that Thieme uses the cult dynamic, to much protest from thiemites.
For me, the goal in mind here is to to help ex-thiemites or current thiemites to learn to compare and contrast Thieme and Chafer for themselves using thier own brain, making thier own decisions, determining thier own path to God thier own way.
I try to build a knowledge base of technical information and testimony to help people build confidence in thier own decision-making and I try to help people recover, readjust, refocus to thier own new life. One of the ways I try to do this is to "unhook" the "anchor" from the past, by debunking the anchor with the truth.
orangeperuviscacha originated this thread. orangeperuviscacha has compiled a large amount of technical information at [www.4shared.com]
There are many theologians who have commented on Thieme's teaching's. Most of these are listed by orangeperuviscacha website above.
I actually am just a member of this forum. And by no means am I the only member. I am not "the leader". I am just very active member trying to portray the truth in as much of a CSI type investigation of information and sources.
We have had a few "rumbles" in here with current thiemties. In nearly each and every case though they mostly disagreed with what I said, I am certain they walked away more informed. Most of these rumbles are welcomed and almost always have led to further investigations and revelations.
When you mention "mental illness" it is sadly ironic that Dr. Wall mention's in one of his critiques in his doctoral dissertation [www.texaswalls.org] about Thieme's teaching on confession(which has caused mental illness): "...In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin16 and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship."
If you read Dr. Wall's dissertation I suggest for brevity to skip to the critiques (and conclusions if applicable) at the end of each chapter.
I especially like what you said "Before I studied or read something unfamiliar I prayed that I be led to the truth."
I like that alot.
Truthtesty
Thanks for sharing. I read "Combatting cult mind control" by Steven Hassan. To me that was an eye opener.
After you studied Chafer did that seem to help in anyway? I ask because here I try to show the differences and similarities between Thieme and Chafer(among other authors). I am often shocked at the differences and the amount of differeces between Chafer and Thieme. I am also shocked at Thieme's shoddy research from his quoted sources. I am also shocked at what truth Thieme hid. I also have proven that Thieme uses the cult dynamic, to much protest from thiemites.
For me, the goal in mind here is to to help ex-thiemites or current thiemites to learn to compare and contrast Thieme and Chafer for themselves using thier own brain, making thier own decisions, determining thier own path to God thier own way.
I try to build a knowledge base of technical information and testimony to help people build confidence in thier own decision-making and I try to help people recover, readjust, refocus to thier own new life. One of the ways I try to do this is to "unhook" the "anchor" from the past, by debunking the anchor with the truth.
orangeperuviscacha originated this thread. orangeperuviscacha has compiled a large amount of technical information at [www.4shared.com]
There are many theologians who have commented on Thieme's teaching's. Most of these are listed by orangeperuviscacha website above.
I actually am just a member of this forum. And by no means am I the only member. I am not "the leader". I am just very active member trying to portray the truth in as much of a CSI type investigation of information and sources.
We have had a few "rumbles" in here with current thiemties. In nearly each and every case though they mostly disagreed with what I said, I am certain they walked away more informed. Most of these rumbles are welcomed and almost always have led to further investigations and revelations.
When you mention "mental illness" it is sadly ironic that Dr. Wall mention's in one of his critiques in his doctoral dissertation [www.texaswalls.org] about Thieme's teaching on confession(which has caused mental illness): "...In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin16 and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship."
If you read Dr. Wall's dissertation I suggest for brevity to skip to the critiques (and conclusions if applicable) at the end of each chapter.
I especially like what you said "Before I studied or read something unfamiliar I prayed that I be led to the truth."
I like that alot.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
mile2
()
Date: June 12, 2008 12:28PM
Hello DJane,
Some time ago I posted a message that you might find interesting regarding Thieme's teaching on mental illness.
To tonyatl and Forum:
Thank you for your post at the top of page 82.
You mentioned "Thieme's extreme histrionics" and that brought to mind something that disturbed me when I first heard Thieme teach. In every teaching I have heard, Thieme's delivery has had an undercurrent of extreme anger that often erupts into a full blown rage. He would read the most benign of scriptural passages with a vitriolic emotion that seemed to defy any reasonable explanation. Also he seemed not to have any sense of humor apart from sarcasm and the demeaning of another person or group. I often wondered what influences in his life could have led him to develop such an attitude.
You mentioned the new biography, "Robert B. Thieme, Jr.; His Ancestry, His Life", by C.G.Hunt. When I learned from it that his mother was committed to an insane asylum while he was in college, at least some of the pieces to the puzzle started to fall into place. In 1939 Thieme's father alleged in the "Complaint in Divorce" that for more than 6 years his wife (Thieme's mother) had treated him in "an extremely cruel and inhuman manner so as to cause grievous mental suffering and grievous bodily injury. That the acts of cruelty have caused great bodily pain and mental anguish, and impaired his health, destroyed his happiness, or any happiness in the home, and made the home miserable and discordant and rendered his life so unendurable that he was forced to cease living with the defendant." In May of that same year Thieme's Uncle Frederick had filed an affidavit wherein he described her to have certain "mental disorders and delusions from religious fanaticism."
From this it can be seen that Thieme's mother was extremely angry, physically violent, emotionally abusive, and displaying some sort of religious fanaticism, to the point of being certifiably insane. Being raised in such an atmosphere would most definately have a profound impact on the phycological development of a child. Thieme was 21 when the divorce complaint was filed, so subtracting 6 years we find he was about 15 when his mother's mental health rendered their home life unendurable.
Unfortunately Thieme seems to have absorbed that anger into his own personality, as so often happens in dysfunctional families.
mile2
I'm sure Thieme's opinions on mental illness were a reflection of his horrendous experiences with his mother, which undoubtedly influenced him to form the teaching that mental problems were caused by "spiritual depravity".
mile2
Some time ago I posted a message that you might find interesting regarding Thieme's teaching on mental illness.
To tonyatl and Forum:
Thank you for your post at the top of page 82.
You mentioned "Thieme's extreme histrionics" and that brought to mind something that disturbed me when I first heard Thieme teach. In every teaching I have heard, Thieme's delivery has had an undercurrent of extreme anger that often erupts into a full blown rage. He would read the most benign of scriptural passages with a vitriolic emotion that seemed to defy any reasonable explanation. Also he seemed not to have any sense of humor apart from sarcasm and the demeaning of another person or group. I often wondered what influences in his life could have led him to develop such an attitude.
You mentioned the new biography, "Robert B. Thieme, Jr.; His Ancestry, His Life", by C.G.Hunt. When I learned from it that his mother was committed to an insane asylum while he was in college, at least some of the pieces to the puzzle started to fall into place. In 1939 Thieme's father alleged in the "Complaint in Divorce" that for more than 6 years his wife (Thieme's mother) had treated him in "an extremely cruel and inhuman manner so as to cause grievous mental suffering and grievous bodily injury. That the acts of cruelty have caused great bodily pain and mental anguish, and impaired his health, destroyed his happiness, or any happiness in the home, and made the home miserable and discordant and rendered his life so unendurable that he was forced to cease living with the defendant." In May of that same year Thieme's Uncle Frederick had filed an affidavit wherein he described her to have certain "mental disorders and delusions from religious fanaticism."
From this it can be seen that Thieme's mother was extremely angry, physically violent, emotionally abusive, and displaying some sort of religious fanaticism, to the point of being certifiably insane. Being raised in such an atmosphere would most definately have a profound impact on the phycological development of a child. Thieme was 21 when the divorce complaint was filed, so subtracting 6 years we find he was about 15 when his mother's mental health rendered their home life unendurable.
Unfortunately Thieme seems to have absorbed that anger into his own personality, as so often happens in dysfunctional families.
mile2
I'm sure Thieme's opinions on mental illness were a reflection of his horrendous experiences with his mother, which undoubtedly influenced him to form the teaching that mental problems were caused by "spiritual depravity".
mile2
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 14, 2008 11:32PM
May 03, 2008 06:05PMPastorThiemeisGreat2me Pastors will have to give an account. Greek= APODIDOMI is the root word for APODUSONTES which is in the Nomnative. plural Future active participle, Meaning to render a due, to give an answer to a claim or expectation, and with it's grammtical construction meaning now and in the future at the judgement seat of Christ.
Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17
So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.
Truthtesty:
To Pss: Exegesis is more than looking up a word in a lexicon. And you forgot "masculine" in both words.
Apodidomi:
Major1: verb
Tense: future
Voice: active
Mood: participle
Case: nominative
Number: plural
Gender: masculine
[www-users.cs.york.ac.uk]
[www.zhubert.com]
[bible.crosswalk.com]
[www.laparola.net]
logos:
Major1: noun
Case: accusative
Number: singular
Gender: masculine
[www-users.cs.york.ac.uk]
[www.zhubert.com]
[www.laparola.net]
To the Forum: Never let a thiemite or another "greek gamer" try to "WOW" you out of thinking and studying for yourself, because they simply repeat a lexicon entry.
Test all things.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2008 11:33PM by Truthtesty.
Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17
So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.
Truthtesty:
To Pss: Exegesis is more than looking up a word in a lexicon. And you forgot "masculine" in both words.
Apodidomi:
Major1: verb
Tense: future
Voice: active
Mood: participle
Case: nominative
Number: plural
Gender: masculine
[www-users.cs.york.ac.uk]
[www.zhubert.com]
[bible.crosswalk.com]
[www.laparola.net]
logos:
Major1: noun
Case: accusative
Number: singular
Gender: masculine
[www-users.cs.york.ac.uk]
[www.zhubert.com]
[www.laparola.net]
To the Forum: Never let a thiemite or another "greek gamer" try to "WOW" you out of thinking and studying for yourself, because they simply repeat a lexicon entry.
Test all things.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2008 11:33PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 16, 2008 01:11AM
To the Forum:
Truthtesty: Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's teaching on c. THE SIMILARITY AND DISSIMILARITY BETWEEN THE TEACHINGS OF GRACE AND THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM, begins on page Vol. 4, Page 214. I show for comparison and contrast, RB Thieme Jr (grey), then Dr. Chafer (red):
He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Realize their Spiritual poverty, and believe, and rebound when needed) (Gate 1) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (a)“Blessed are the poor [humble] in spirit: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” As Christ declared of the little child, “of such is the kingdom of heaven.” In the Old Testament vision of the coming manifestation of the King, it is said: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones” (Isa. 57:15). To the Christian it is said: “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind” (Col. 3:12). These virtues are not put on by the Christian to gain heaven, much less the kingdom of heaven. They are put on because these elements of character belong to the one who is already “elect of God, holy and beloved.” Christ is the pattern (Phil. 2:8), and God resists aught but humbleness of mind (James 4:6). In the teachings of grace, “put on” does not mean to pretend, or assume; it is the manifestation of the regenerate life through the power of the Spirit (see Eph. 4:24; 6:11; Col. 3:12).
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. (Truth in the soul shows the degeneracy of self, and the world) (Gate 2) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (b)“Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.” Mourning does not belong to the Bride of Christ. To her a different message has been given: “Rejoice, and again I say, Rejoice.” Mourning is the portion of Israel until her King comes, and when He comes, it will be “to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness” (Isa. 61:2–3; cf. Isa. 51:3; 66:13; 35:10; 51:11; Zech. 1:17).
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. (Humility to follow Christ to maturity and share all He has) (Gate 3) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (c) “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.” Under grace, meekness is wrought in the believer by the Spirit, and is never rewarded; but the judgments of the King will be to “reprove with equity for the meek of the earth” (Isa. 11:4; cf. Isa. 29:19; Zeph. 2:3; Ps. 45:4; 76:9). The earth is to be inherited in the kingdom reign. The glory of the King will be in the earth. It could hardly be supposed that the meek are inheriting the earth now, or that this is any promise to the Church, to whom no earthly promise is made. Those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, have an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, (Maximum positive volition) (Gate 4) for they shall be satisfied. (You will make it to maturity) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (d) “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.” The Christian may crave a closer walk with God; but he is already “made the righteousness of God in him.” In distinction to this, righteousness is that quality which must be attained in the kingdom (Matt. 5:20). “For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory” (Isa. 62:1–2; cf. Ps. 72:1–4; 85:10–11, 13; Isa. 11:4–5).
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. (You are now Spiritually caring about others more than self, Motivational virtue) (Gate 5) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (e) “Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” The exact condition revealed in this promise should be carefully considered; for, in this passage, mercy from God is made to depend wholly on the exercise of mercy toward others. This is pure law. Under grace the Christian is besought to be merciful, as one who has already obtained mercy (Eph. 2:4–5; Titus 3:5). The mercy of God will go forth in grace to the nation Israel when He gathers them into their own land (Ezek. 39:25); but He will, at the same time, deal with them as individuals by law: “But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them” (Ps. 103:17–18). “Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; with the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward” (Ps. 18:24–26). Under grace, He is rich in mercy, even when we were “dead in sins.”
"Blessed are the pure in heart, (Spiritual adult) (Gate 6) for they shall see God. (Rev_22:4) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (f) “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” Opposed to this, and under grace it is written: “But we see Jesus” and “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 4:6). In Christ, God now is revealed to the believer, while the kingdom promise to the pure in heart is that they shall see God. The kingdom promises continue: “He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. … Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty” (Isa. 33:15–17). “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart” (Ps. 24:3–4).
"Blessed are the peacemakers, (Now, you can lead others to maturity) for they shall be called sons of God."Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, (Now suffering for a blessing) (Gate 7) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (g) “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Peace is one of the two great words in the kingdom. The King, who is “The Prince of Peace,” shall so reign that righteousness and peace shall cover the earth as waters cover the face of the deep (cf. Ps. 72:3, 7). In that kingdom there will be special distinction given to the one who promotes peace. “They shall be called the children of God.” Under grace, no one is constituted a child of God by any works whatsoever. “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26).
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. (Joh_15:18) "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; (Gate 8) for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth; ( Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts) but if the salt has become tasteless, (Quit being separate from the worlds thinking) (2Co_6:17-18) how can it be made salty again? (Heb_6:5-6) It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. (Stepped on by man, and disciplined by God, because we have become useless!) (Mat_5:2-13)"The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (h) “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” Again, the issue is righteousness. The Christian, on the contrary, suffers with Christ and for His sake, and his reward is in heaven. “But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake” (John 15:21) . “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12).
Truthtesty: It appears Thieme left out his creation of gate 9 and combined it into gate 8. Anyhow:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer i) “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” The believer is called to suffer for Christ’s sake: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29); “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:12). It should be noted that when the children of the kingdom are compared to any class of men in suffering, they are taken back to prophets which were before them, and not to the saints who comprise the Body of Christ.
As we have seen in (Heb_11:1) thru (Heb_12:4) that the way to maturity is the same in every time period, the difference is the way of communication, and or illustrations (Trees, wells, a ladder, names, The Tabernacle, Temple, feasts, gates of the city etc.) that are being used. "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Concluding these observations concerning the nine beatitudes, attention should be given to the fact that, in contrast to the ninefold, self-earned blessing of the kingdom, the believer under grace is to experience a ninefold blessing which is produced in him by the direct power of the indwelling Spirit. A careful comparison should be made of the ninefold blessing which is promised under the kingdom, with the ninefold blessing which is prepared under grace. It will be seen that all that is demanded under the law of the kingdom as a condition of blessing, is, under grace, divinely provided. The two aspects of life which are represented by these two groups of characterizing words are most significant. The total of all the blessings in the kingdom is not comparable with the superabundant “fruit of the Spirit”—“love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (self-control, Gal. 5:22–23). The very tense of the verb used is important. Under grace, the fruit of the Spirit is, which indicates the present possession of the blessing through pure grace; while under the kingdom, the blessing shall be to such as merit it by their own works.
Truthtesty: To Thieme I say the way to maturity is obviously different between Old Testament saints merit and Grace Age believers (power of the Holy Spirit's) wroughting and indwelling, "walk in the light", and moment to moment experiential investigation with the Holy Spirit.
Also, God does our "God thinking" for us, Christians do thier own "Christian human thinking" in faith, while being moved by the Holy Spirit. Thieme is teaching dysfunction and when followed leads to a dysfuctional Christian human life. What an impossible burden to say Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts. What arrogance! No human has the total complete infinte thought process of God.
Thiemites become dysfunctional because of false teaching, not because there are a "few bad apples" who fall off of Thieme's "pyramid" scheme. Repetitively "listening to enough tapes" will not solve this dysfunction, it causes dysfunction.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2008 01:19AM by Truthtesty.
Truthtesty: Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's teaching on c. THE SIMILARITY AND DISSIMILARITY BETWEEN THE TEACHINGS OF GRACE AND THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM, begins on page Vol. 4, Page 214. I show for comparison and contrast, RB Thieme Jr (grey), then Dr. Chafer (red):
He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Realize their Spiritual poverty, and believe, and rebound when needed) (Gate 1) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (a)“Blessed are the poor [humble] in spirit: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” As Christ declared of the little child, “of such is the kingdom of heaven.” In the Old Testament vision of the coming manifestation of the King, it is said: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones” (Isa. 57:15). To the Christian it is said: “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind” (Col. 3:12). These virtues are not put on by the Christian to gain heaven, much less the kingdom of heaven. They are put on because these elements of character belong to the one who is already “elect of God, holy and beloved.” Christ is the pattern (Phil. 2:8), and God resists aught but humbleness of mind (James 4:6). In the teachings of grace, “put on” does not mean to pretend, or assume; it is the manifestation of the regenerate life through the power of the Spirit (see Eph. 4:24; 6:11; Col. 3:12).
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. (Truth in the soul shows the degeneracy of self, and the world) (Gate 2) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (b)“Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.” Mourning does not belong to the Bride of Christ. To her a different message has been given: “Rejoice, and again I say, Rejoice.” Mourning is the portion of Israel until her King comes, and when He comes, it will be “to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness” (Isa. 61:2–3; cf. Isa. 51:3; 66:13; 35:10; 51:11; Zech. 1:17).
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. (Humility to follow Christ to maturity and share all He has) (Gate 3) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (c) “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.” Under grace, meekness is wrought in the believer by the Spirit, and is never rewarded; but the judgments of the King will be to “reprove with equity for the meek of the earth” (Isa. 11:4; cf. Isa. 29:19; Zeph. 2:3; Ps. 45:4; 76:9). The earth is to be inherited in the kingdom reign. The glory of the King will be in the earth. It could hardly be supposed that the meek are inheriting the earth now, or that this is any promise to the Church, to whom no earthly promise is made. Those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, have an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, (Maximum positive volition) (Gate 4) for they shall be satisfied. (You will make it to maturity) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (d) “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.” The Christian may crave a closer walk with God; but he is already “made the righteousness of God in him.” In distinction to this, righteousness is that quality which must be attained in the kingdom (Matt. 5:20). “For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory” (Isa. 62:1–2; cf. Ps. 72:1–4; 85:10–11, 13; Isa. 11:4–5).
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. (You are now Spiritually caring about others more than self, Motivational virtue) (Gate 5) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (e) “Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” The exact condition revealed in this promise should be carefully considered; for, in this passage, mercy from God is made to depend wholly on the exercise of mercy toward others. This is pure law. Under grace the Christian is besought to be merciful, as one who has already obtained mercy (Eph. 2:4–5; Titus 3:5). The mercy of God will go forth in grace to the nation Israel when He gathers them into their own land (Ezek. 39:25); but He will, at the same time, deal with them as individuals by law: “But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them” (Ps. 103:17–18). “Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; with the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward” (Ps. 18:24–26). Under grace, He is rich in mercy, even when we were “dead in sins.”
"Blessed are the pure in heart, (Spiritual adult) (Gate 6) for they shall see God. (Rev_22:4) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (f) “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” Opposed to this, and under grace it is written: “But we see Jesus” and “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 4:6). In Christ, God now is revealed to the believer, while the kingdom promise to the pure in heart is that they shall see God. The kingdom promises continue: “He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. … Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty” (Isa. 33:15–17). “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart” (Ps. 24:3–4).
"Blessed are the peacemakers, (Now, you can lead others to maturity) for they shall be called sons of God."Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, (Now suffering for a blessing) (Gate 7) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (g) “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Peace is one of the two great words in the kingdom. The King, who is “The Prince of Peace,” shall so reign that righteousness and peace shall cover the earth as waters cover the face of the deep (cf. Ps. 72:3, 7). In that kingdom there will be special distinction given to the one who promotes peace. “They shall be called the children of God.” Under grace, no one is constituted a child of God by any works whatsoever. “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26).
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. (Joh_15:18) "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; (Gate 8) for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth; ( Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts) but if the salt has become tasteless, (Quit being separate from the worlds thinking) (2Co_6:17-18) how can it be made salty again? (Heb_6:5-6) It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. (Stepped on by man, and disciplined by God, because we have become useless!) (Mat_5:2-13)"The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (h) “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” Again, the issue is righteousness. The Christian, on the contrary, suffers with Christ and for His sake, and his reward is in heaven. “But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake” (John 15:21) . “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12).
Truthtesty: It appears Thieme left out his creation of gate 9 and combined it into gate 8. Anyhow:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer i) “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” The believer is called to suffer for Christ’s sake: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29); “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:12). It should be noted that when the children of the kingdom are compared to any class of men in suffering, they are taken back to prophets which were before them, and not to the saints who comprise the Body of Christ.
As we have seen in (Heb_11:1) thru (Heb_12:4) that the way to maturity is the same in every time period, the difference is the way of communication, and or illustrations (Trees, wells, a ladder, names, The Tabernacle, Temple, feasts, gates of the city etc.) that are being used. "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Concluding these observations concerning the nine beatitudes, attention should be given to the fact that, in contrast to the ninefold, self-earned blessing of the kingdom, the believer under grace is to experience a ninefold blessing which is produced in him by the direct power of the indwelling Spirit. A careful comparison should be made of the ninefold blessing which is promised under the kingdom, with the ninefold blessing which is prepared under grace. It will be seen that all that is demanded under the law of the kingdom as a condition of blessing, is, under grace, divinely provided. The two aspects of life which are represented by these two groups of characterizing words are most significant. The total of all the blessings in the kingdom is not comparable with the superabundant “fruit of the Spirit”—“love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (self-control, Gal. 5:22–23). The very tense of the verb used is important. Under grace, the fruit of the Spirit is, which indicates the present possession of the blessing through pure grace; while under the kingdom, the blessing shall be to such as merit it by their own works.
Truthtesty: To Thieme I say the way to maturity is obviously different between Old Testament saints merit and Grace Age believers (power of the Holy Spirit's) wroughting and indwelling, "walk in the light", and moment to moment experiential investigation with the Holy Spirit.
Also, God does our "God thinking" for us, Christians do thier own "Christian human thinking" in faith, while being moved by the Holy Spirit. Thieme is teaching dysfunction and when followed leads to a dysfuctional Christian human life. What an impossible burden to say Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts. What arrogance! No human has the total complete infinte thought process of God.
Thiemites become dysfunctional because of false teaching, not because there are a "few bad apples" who fall off of Thieme's "pyramid" scheme. Repetitively "listening to enough tapes" will not solve this dysfunction, it causes dysfunction.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2008 01:19AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
radaph
()
Date: June 17, 2008 12:01AM
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Truthtesty: Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's teaching on c. THE SIMILARITY AND DISSIMILARITY BETWEEN THE TEACHINGS OF GRACE AND THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM, begins on page Vol. 4, Page 214. I show for comparison and contrast, RB Thieme Jr (grey), then Dr. Chafer (red):
He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Realize their Spiritual poverty, and believe, and rebound when needed) (Gate 1) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (a)“Blessed are the poor [humble] in spirit: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” As Christ declared of the little child, “of such is the kingdom of heaven.” In the Old Testament vision of the coming manifestation of the King, it is said: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones” (Isa. 57:15). To the Christian it is said: “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind” (Col. 3:12). These virtues are not put on by the Christian to gain heaven, much less the kingdom of heaven. They are put on because these elements of character belong to the one who is already “elect of God, holy and beloved.” Christ is the pattern (Phil. 2:8), and God resists aught but humbleness of mind (James 4:6). In the teachings of grace, “put on” does not mean to pretend, or assume; it is the manifestation of the regenerate life through the power of the Spirit (see Eph. 4:24; 6:11; Col. 3:12).
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. (Truth in the soul shows the degeneracy of self, and the world) (Gate 2) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (b)“Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.” Mourning does not belong to the Bride of Christ. To her a different message has been given: “Rejoice, and again I say, Rejoice.” Mourning is the portion of Israel until her King comes, and when He comes, it will be “to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness” (Isa. 61:2–3; cf. Isa. 51:3; 66:13; 35:10; 51:11; Zech. 1:17).
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. (Humility to follow Christ to maturity and share all He has) (Gate 3) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (c) “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.” Under grace, meekness is wrought in the believer by the Spirit, and is never rewarded; but the judgments of the King will be to “reprove with equity for the meek of the earth” (Isa. 11:4; cf. Isa. 29:19; Zeph. 2:3; Ps. 45:4; 76:9). The earth is to be inherited in the kingdom reign. The glory of the King will be in the earth. It could hardly be supposed that the meek are inheriting the earth now, or that this is any promise to the Church, to whom no earthly promise is made. Those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, have an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, (Maximum positive volition) (Gate 4) for they shall be satisfied. (You will make it to maturity) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (d) “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.” The Christian may crave a closer walk with God; but he is already “made the righteousness of God in him.” In distinction to this, righteousness is that quality which must be attained in the kingdom (Matt. 5:20). “For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory” (Isa. 62:1–2; cf. Ps. 72:1–4; 85:10–11, 13; Isa. 11:4–5).
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. (You are now Spiritually caring about others more than self, Motivational virtue) (Gate 5) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (e) “Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” The exact condition revealed in this promise should be carefully considered; for, in this passage, mercy from God is made to depend wholly on the exercise of mercy toward others. This is pure law. Under grace the Christian is besought to be merciful, as one who has already obtained mercy (Eph. 2:4–5; Titus 3:5). The mercy of God will go forth in grace to the nation Israel when He gathers them into their own land (Ezek. 39:25); but He will, at the same time, deal with them as individuals by law: “But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them” (Ps. 103:17–18). “Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; with the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward” (Ps. 18:24–26). Under grace, He is rich in mercy, even when we were “dead in sins.”
"Blessed are the pure in heart, (Spiritual adult) (Gate 6) for they shall see God. (Rev_22:4) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (f) “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” Opposed to this, and under grace it is written: “But we see Jesus” and “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 4:6). In Christ, God now is revealed to the believer, while the kingdom promise to the pure in heart is that they shall see God. The kingdom promises continue: “He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. … Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty” (Isa. 33:15–17). “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart” (Ps. 24:3–4).
"Blessed are the peacemakers, (Now, you can lead others to maturity) for they shall be called sons of God."Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, (Now suffering for a blessing) (Gate 7) "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (g) “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Peace is one of the two great words in the kingdom. The King, who is “The Prince of Peace,” shall so reign that righteousness and peace shall cover the earth as waters cover the face of the deep (cf. Ps. 72:3, 7). In that kingdom there will be special distinction given to the one who promotes peace. “They shall be called the children of God.” Under grace, no one is constituted a child of God by any works whatsoever. “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26).
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. (Joh_15:18) "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; (Gate 8) for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth; ( Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts) but if the salt has become tasteless, (Quit being separate from the worlds thinking) (2Co_6:17-18) how can it be made salty again? (Heb_6:5-6) It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. (Stepped on by man, and disciplined by God, because we have become useless!) (Mat_5:2-13)"The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (h) “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for their’s is the kingdom of heaven.” Again, the issue is righteousness. The Christian, on the contrary, suffers with Christ and for His sake, and his reward is in heaven. “But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake” (John 15:21) . “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12).
Truthtesty: It appears Thieme left out his creation of gate 9 and combined it into gate 8. Anyhow:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer i) “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” The believer is called to suffer for Christ’s sake: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29); “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:12). It should be noted that when the children of the kingdom are compared to any class of men in suffering, they are taken back to prophets which were before them, and not to the saints who comprise the Body of Christ.
As we have seen in (Heb_11:1) thru (Heb_12:4) that the way to maturity is the same in every time period, the difference is the way of communication, and or illustrations (Trees, wells, a ladder, names, The Tabernacle, Temple, feasts, gates of the city etc.) that are being used. "The Divine Outline of History" RB Thieme Jr
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Concluding these observations concerning the nine beatitudes, attention should be given to the fact that, in contrast to the ninefold, self-earned blessing of the kingdom, the believer under grace is to experience a ninefold blessing which is produced in him by the direct power of the indwelling Spirit. A careful comparison should be made of the ninefold blessing which is promised under the kingdom, with the ninefold blessing which is prepared under grace. It will be seen that all that is demanded under the law of the kingdom as a condition of blessing, is, under grace, divinely provided. The two aspects of life which are represented by these two groups of characterizing words are most significant. The total of all the blessings in the kingdom is not comparable with the superabundant “fruit of the Spirit”—“love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (self-control, Gal. 5:22–23). The very tense of the verb used is important. Under grace, the fruit of the Spirit is, which indicates the present possession of the blessing through pure grace; while under the kingdom, the blessing shall be to such as merit it by their own works.
Truthtesty: To Thieme I say the way to maturity is obviously different between Old Testament saints merit and Grace Age believers (power of the Holy Spirit's) wroughting and indwelling, "walk in the light", and moment to moment experiential investigation with the Holy Spirit.
Also, God does our "God thinking" for us, Christians do thier own "Christian human thinking" in faith, while being moved by the Holy Spirit. Thieme is teaching dysfunction and when followed leads to a dysfuctional Christian human life. What an impossible burden to say Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts. What arrogance! No human has the total complete infinte thought process of God.
Thiemites become dysfunctional because of false teaching, not because there are a "few bad apples" who fall off of Thieme's "pyramid" scheme. Repetitively "listening to enough tapes" will not solve this dysfunction, it causes dysfunction.
Truthtesty
And this proves Berachah is a cult, how?
There are lots of very sincere pastors out there who's teachings are very sincere, but also wrong according to the scriptures. But then they have a large following who would say your pastor is wrong. So who is right, and who is wrong? Only God knows for certain. But I do know this, that arguing about bible doctrine is contrary to God's plan. Christians fighting among themselves is never God's will, regardless of their well-meaning intentions.
You want to convince someone your way is the truth? Stop telling them, and start showing them. Words are cheap, actions speak much louder.
Of course this is just my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
mile2
()
Date: June 18, 2008 04:12AM
radaph:
I am glad you are still here. I have been waiting for your response to my post on May16 (p. 131). In case you have forgotten, here is your statement to me followed by my response to you.
I think 1Timothy 3:2 is saying that a pastor should not be a polygamist, more than anything. I don't think it's saying he should'nt be divorced or remarried. Scripture makes it clear that there sometimes biblical justification for divorce. Do you know why Bobby got divorced, whether or not it was biblical? I don't.
Still the verse that keeps coming to my mind is this one:
"Judge not lest ye be judged" and also "he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Pastors are gifted, but they are still just men. They sin too.
God forgave him, so should we.
Enough said about that.
Radaph:
I am wondering why you conclude that this verse refers to polygamy. Are you basing your opinion on Thieme's explanation? I find it strange that God would warn against polygamy here, when I can't think of any other passage in the epistles that deals with that subject. Thieme's teaching on this passage of 4 words then is that polygamy disqualifies someone from entering the ministry, but divorce does not. So logically if a polygamist wanted to be a church leader, all he would have to do is divorce all but one wife. In God's eyes he would now qualify. Does this make any sense at all?
Many Bible scholars discount the idea of polygamy in this verse, and in fact the Jerusalem Bible reads, "He must not have been married more than once.
Every time I ask a Thiemite to comment on this issue, the verse "Judge not lest ye be judged" is brought up. But logically speaking, if God does not expect us to examine the marital status of a potential pastor, then why would He make marital status a qualification for leadership in the church? The judgement we are expected to make is whether or not a man is qualified for the position of pastor.
God is not saying here that divorce is not allowed for a Christian. You assumed that I was taking that position. He is saying that having more than 1 wife disqualifies a candidate for the position of pastor. And why Bobby got divorced 3 times, or whether the divorces were due to his sin or not is certainly of no consequence. God is giving a list of qualifications for a man seeking a leadership position. We are to follow His instructions here, obeying His Word when it comes to the extremely important decision regarding the leadership of the body of believers.
This Word was violated by Col. Thieme and his congregation when they chose Bobby as the new pastor of Berachah. Thieme's personal desires superseded God's command.
Just an additional thought-- I find that every Thiemite on this forum has trouble looking at scripture in a logical way, as evidenced by your reference to the " Judge not" verse, which makes no sense in the context of this scripture. I think this is probably due in large part to the fact that critical thinking is suspended when a person passively listens for many hours a week to Thieme's teachings.
Looking forward to your response,
mile2
As I have said before, 3 other followers of Thieme have refused to comment on this issue and simply left the forum. Do you excuse Thieme's behavior in this matter? Do you choose to ignore this question, or will you explain your position? If you are not under the influence of a cult and you maintain your independence of thought, then why would you choose not to confront a problem?
mile2
I am glad you are still here. I have been waiting for your response to my post on May16 (p. 131). In case you have forgotten, here is your statement to me followed by my response to you.
I think 1Timothy 3:2 is saying that a pastor should not be a polygamist, more than anything. I don't think it's saying he should'nt be divorced or remarried. Scripture makes it clear that there sometimes biblical justification for divorce. Do you know why Bobby got divorced, whether or not it was biblical? I don't.
Still the verse that keeps coming to my mind is this one:
"Judge not lest ye be judged" and also "he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Pastors are gifted, but they are still just men. They sin too.
God forgave him, so should we.
Enough said about that.
Radaph:
I am wondering why you conclude that this verse refers to polygamy. Are you basing your opinion on Thieme's explanation? I find it strange that God would warn against polygamy here, when I can't think of any other passage in the epistles that deals with that subject. Thieme's teaching on this passage of 4 words then is that polygamy disqualifies someone from entering the ministry, but divorce does not. So logically if a polygamist wanted to be a church leader, all he would have to do is divorce all but one wife. In God's eyes he would now qualify. Does this make any sense at all?
Many Bible scholars discount the idea of polygamy in this verse, and in fact the Jerusalem Bible reads, "He must not have been married more than once.
Every time I ask a Thiemite to comment on this issue, the verse "Judge not lest ye be judged" is brought up. But logically speaking, if God does not expect us to examine the marital status of a potential pastor, then why would He make marital status a qualification for leadership in the church? The judgement we are expected to make is whether or not a man is qualified for the position of pastor.
God is not saying here that divorce is not allowed for a Christian. You assumed that I was taking that position. He is saying that having more than 1 wife disqualifies a candidate for the position of pastor. And why Bobby got divorced 3 times, or whether the divorces were due to his sin or not is certainly of no consequence. God is giving a list of qualifications for a man seeking a leadership position. We are to follow His instructions here, obeying His Word when it comes to the extremely important decision regarding the leadership of the body of believers.
This Word was violated by Col. Thieme and his congregation when they chose Bobby as the new pastor of Berachah. Thieme's personal desires superseded God's command.
Just an additional thought-- I find that every Thiemite on this forum has trouble looking at scripture in a logical way, as evidenced by your reference to the " Judge not" verse, which makes no sense in the context of this scripture. I think this is probably due in large part to the fact that critical thinking is suspended when a person passively listens for many hours a week to Thieme's teachings.
Looking forward to your response,
mile2
As I have said before, 3 other followers of Thieme have refused to comment on this issue and simply left the forum. Do you excuse Thieme's behavior in this matter? Do you choose to ignore this question, or will you explain your position? If you are not under the influence of a cult and you maintain your independence of thought, then why would you choose not to confront a problem?
mile2
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 18, 2008 08:23AM
radaph: And this proves Berachah is a cult, how?
Truthtesty: I have already proven to sound minds how Thieme is a cult. In addition, the information presented above is for well meaning Christians to contrast and compare Dr. Chafer and Thieme, for thier own personal study. In doing so Christians can discriminate for themselves and make up thier own minds on the place of the "beatitudes". However, I am certain Christian psycologists who read this would raise an eyebrow at Thieme's telling people to be "Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts". (By the way "beatitudes" if from the Latin word "beatis", from the Catholic Latin Vulgate. The Greek word is "makarios". Thieme did claim to be a student of Latin too, so why would he use the Catholic Latin Vulgate "beatitudes", instead of "makarios"?)
radaph: There are lots of very sincere pastors out there who's teachings are very sincere, but also wrong according to the scriptures. But then they have a large following who would say your pastor is wrong. So who is right, and who is wrong? Only God knows for certain. But I do know this, that arguing about bible doctrine is contrary to God's plan. Christians fighting among themselves is never God's will, regardless of their well-meaning intentions.
Truthtesty: How would you "know this"? "who is right, and who is wrong"? if "Only God knows for certain"? But? according to you, no one knows anything for certain, except you "do know this" that fighting about bible doctrine is wrong for certain, but then even that is just your "cheap opinion" according to you. 1st I ask how "you know" this one thing and no one else "knows anything"? If only God knows for certain? 2nd contrasting and comparing Dr. Chafer and Thieme is not "fighting" about bible doctrine, it's part of personal study approved unto God, not man.
Are you sure your not mad? You cannot even sustain integrity of truth of logic within your own few self-contradicting sentences. Do you hear voices?
radaph: You want to convince someone your way is the truth? Stop telling them, and start showing them. Words are cheap, actions speak much louder.
Truthtesty: I present information for people to make up thier own minds. I tell people to "test all things", INCLUDING ME and I take no offense to thier (logically sound) testing what I say.
radaph: Of course this is just my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth.
Truthtesty: Speak for yourself.
Thieme never counted on this. Thieme never counted on anyone being able to hold him to account. Thieme could say anything false that he wanted to without consequence. He almost got away with it. But not today. Not anymore.
You are so concerned about Thieme? What about the thousands of Christians who were misled? What about them?
And fighting? Comparing Dr. Chafer and Thieme is not "fighting". But? You must be talking about fighting among Christians like when Thieme childishly namecalled Christians "Bleeding heart liberals", "dummies", "melanoderms" etc... or accused them of using "gimmicks" when they were trying to appeal to Thieme to stop his false teachings.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2008 08:37AM by Truthtesty.
Truthtesty: I have already proven to sound minds how Thieme is a cult. In addition, the information presented above is for well meaning Christians to contrast and compare Dr. Chafer and Thieme, for thier own personal study. In doing so Christians can discriminate for themselves and make up thier own minds on the place of the "beatitudes". However, I am certain Christian psycologists who read this would raise an eyebrow at Thieme's telling people to be "Thinking with God's Thoughts, not human thoughts". (By the way "beatitudes" if from the Latin word "beatis", from the Catholic Latin Vulgate. The Greek word is "makarios". Thieme did claim to be a student of Latin too, so why would he use the Catholic Latin Vulgate "beatitudes", instead of "makarios"?)
radaph: There are lots of very sincere pastors out there who's teachings are very sincere, but also wrong according to the scriptures. But then they have a large following who would say your pastor is wrong. So who is right, and who is wrong? Only God knows for certain. But I do know this, that arguing about bible doctrine is contrary to God's plan. Christians fighting among themselves is never God's will, regardless of their well-meaning intentions.
Truthtesty: How would you "know this"? "who is right, and who is wrong"? if "Only God knows for certain"? But? according to you, no one knows anything for certain, except you "do know this" that fighting about bible doctrine is wrong for certain, but then even that is just your "cheap opinion" according to you. 1st I ask how "you know" this one thing and no one else "knows anything"? If only God knows for certain? 2nd contrasting and comparing Dr. Chafer and Thieme is not "fighting" about bible doctrine, it's part of personal study approved unto God, not man.
Are you sure your not mad? You cannot even sustain integrity of truth of logic within your own few self-contradicting sentences. Do you hear voices?
radaph: You want to convince someone your way is the truth? Stop telling them, and start showing them. Words are cheap, actions speak much louder.
Truthtesty: I present information for people to make up thier own minds. I tell people to "test all things", INCLUDING ME and I take no offense to thier (logically sound) testing what I say.
radaph: Of course this is just my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth.
Truthtesty: Speak for yourself.
Thieme never counted on this. Thieme never counted on anyone being able to hold him to account. Thieme could say anything false that he wanted to without consequence. He almost got away with it. But not today. Not anymore.
You are so concerned about Thieme? What about the thousands of Christians who were misled? What about them?
And fighting? Comparing Dr. Chafer and Thieme is not "fighting". But? You must be talking about fighting among Christians like when Thieme childishly namecalled Christians "Bleeding heart liberals", "dummies", "melanoderms" etc... or accused them of using "gimmicks" when they were trying to appeal to Thieme to stop his false teachings.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2008 08:37AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 20, 2008 09:26AM
radaph Words are cheap, actions speak much louder.
Truthtesty: Thieme did nothing other than speak words, but it was a monolgue, not a dialogue. So what actions did Thieme do?
I think you have made some recovery in recognzing the false teachings of Thieme. I think you have a lot of work to do. Saying "words are cheap" seems to point to your low self-esteem and poor quality of communication with words. For example: Mile2 has asked you 2 questions and you have refused to answer them. Poor communication. It is obvious Mile2 is trying to help you. But you ignore Mile2. Why?
We are "acting" just by reaching out and sharing our experiences and information with one another. In addition I am specifically presenting at this time information from Dr. Chafer (who was Thieme's mentor/professor/pastor) at Dallas Theological Seminary where Thieme earned a master's degree. The comparison and contrast between Thieme and his professor Dr. Chafer is helpful to many people.
But you are so critical of us? Yet? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHERE ARE YOUR ACTIONS? Are you just so selfish you can't help others? Is other people's help "not good enough" for you? You won't even answer Mile2's questions. So why do you ask us "to do" something when we already are?
Again rad your not making a whole lot of sense.
Truthtesty
Truthtesty: Thieme did nothing other than speak words, but it was a monolgue, not a dialogue. So what actions did Thieme do?
I think you have made some recovery in recognzing the false teachings of Thieme. I think you have a lot of work to do. Saying "words are cheap" seems to point to your low self-esteem and poor quality of communication with words. For example: Mile2 has asked you 2 questions and you have refused to answer them. Poor communication. It is obvious Mile2 is trying to help you. But you ignore Mile2. Why?
We are "acting" just by reaching out and sharing our experiences and information with one another. In addition I am specifically presenting at this time information from Dr. Chafer (who was Thieme's mentor/professor/pastor) at Dallas Theological Seminary where Thieme earned a master's degree. The comparison and contrast between Thieme and his professor Dr. Chafer is helpful to many people.
But you are so critical of us? Yet? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHERE ARE YOUR ACTIONS? Are you just so selfish you can't help others? Is other people's help "not good enough" for you? You won't even answer Mile2's questions. So why do you ask us "to do" something when we already are?
Again rad your not making a whole lot of sense.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 20, 2008 11:08AM
Hey Testy,
I have gotten behind again reading posts on this thread, so I just picked this last post to let folks know of a Thieme tid bit I found while browsing sermons by Dr. D.A. Waite today.
As you may recall, Dr.Waite also attended Dallas Seminary, part of the time while Thieme was also a student there. The sermon in question can be found here:
[www.sermonaudio.com]
The mention of Thieme comes before half way into the message, when he is speaking about various false gospels and the heresy on the BLOOD OF CHRIST by Thieme as well as John MacArthur.
Waite recounts his correspondence/talk with Dr. John Walvoord, then president of Dallas Seminary, regarding the blood of Christ heresy of Thieme. Walvoord then confirms that it is heresy, and does not mind telling others, BUT when it came to doing the same thing with the same heresy, this time with John MacArthur doing the teaching, Walvoord shared his opinion of the same PRIVATELY with Dr. Waite, he did now want Dr. Waite to quote him on Mac Arthur, presumably because he was more well known and influential. Same heresy, different feelings!
You doing OK?
I hope to catch back up on this thread soon.
Sister
I have gotten behind again reading posts on this thread, so I just picked this last post to let folks know of a Thieme tid bit I found while browsing sermons by Dr. D.A. Waite today.
As you may recall, Dr.Waite also attended Dallas Seminary, part of the time while Thieme was also a student there. The sermon in question can be found here:
[www.sermonaudio.com]
The mention of Thieme comes before half way into the message, when he is speaking about various false gospels and the heresy on the BLOOD OF CHRIST by Thieme as well as John MacArthur.
Waite recounts his correspondence/talk with Dr. John Walvoord, then president of Dallas Seminary, regarding the blood of Christ heresy of Thieme. Walvoord then confirms that it is heresy, and does not mind telling others, BUT when it came to doing the same thing with the same heresy, this time with John MacArthur doing the teaching, Walvoord shared his opinion of the same PRIVATELY with Dr. Waite, he did now want Dr. Waite to quote him on Mac Arthur, presumably because he was more well known and influential. Same heresy, different feelings!
You doing OK?
I hope to catch back up on this thread soon.
Sister
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