Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 20, 2008 11:49AM
Re EEG's and life indications:
When I proposed to Thieme followers on one of their groups (pro Thieme) that babies in the womb were also known to have EEG brain waves, and thus, AT THE VERY LEAST must be considered to be HUMAN AND ALIVE in the womb, they protested furiously that this was ONLY TISSUE MOTILITY or some such silly invented term to describe babies before their birth.
They want it both ways, and they can't have it.
It is either both ends of life or neither.
Sistersoap
When I proposed to Thieme followers on one of their groups (pro Thieme) that babies in the womb were also known to have EEG brain waves, and thus, AT THE VERY LEAST must be considered to be HUMAN AND ALIVE in the womb, they protested furiously that this was ONLY TISSUE MOTILITY or some such silly invented term to describe babies before their birth.
They want it both ways, and they can't have it.
It is either both ends of life or neither.
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 21, 2008 10:04AM
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
From "THE BIBLICAL USE OF THE TERM 'BLOOD" by Leon Morris
...The remaining passages seem to point to sacrificial blood. Six times there is reference to covenant blood, which calls for no comment to show the sacrificial reference; in Rom. 3:25 God is said to have set forth Christ as hilasterion ... en to autou haimati , where the word hilasterion points us to the sacrifices. In Heb. 9 the whole context with its mention of the blood of sacrificial victims shows that verses 12 and 14 carry a reference to the sacrificial system when they speak of the blood of Christ, and the same is true of 10:19. The unusual phrase 'blood of sprinkling' (Heb. 12:24) points to a sacrificial action, and the context shows that in Heb. 13:12 the sin offering is in mind. The sprinkling of the blood in 1 Pet. 1:2 again indicates a sacrificial action, while the blood 'as of a lamb without blemish and without spot' (1 Pet. 1:19) is clearly sacrificial blood, and the same is probably true of 'the blood of the Lamb' in Rev. 7:14, 12:11. Finally, the thought of cleansing associated with the blood in 1 John 17 seems to be an allusion to sacrifice.
1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Leon Morris clearly states above: The sprinkling of the blood in 1 Pet. 1:2 again indicates a sacrificial action, while the blood 'as of a lamb without blemish and without spot' (1 Pet. 1:19) is clearly sacrificial blood,
(In Rom 3:25 I used transliterated "hilasterion dia (tes) pisteos en to autou haimati" because the Greek font does not appear to work on Rick Ross, Morris uses the actual Greek and associated fonts.)
Differentiated context.
As Barr said ""illegitimate totality transfer," i.e. the whole range of meanings that a word could have in its various semantic contexts is thought to be present in each individual case. According to Barr, it is much more appropriate to look for theology not in a word but in a sentence or combination of words, a principle that most subsequent scholarly efforts to produce a "theological dictionary" have tried to follow.
Truthtesty
Hi Testy,
I have become wary of "experts" who rely entirely on the human reference works for their Bible knowledge and interpretation. I think this article shows this danger. Dictionaries and their writer-editors have a point of view. They are NONE of them without a bias. The key is to know what that bias is and to see if you agree that it is consistent with the whole counsel of God in the Bible.
The same could go for other standard references works as well. They are man made and subject to human failings.We ought ALL OF US TO KEEP THIS IN MIND in our discussions and studies.
I would like to hear more about this subject, and to have examples of Barr's theory in action.
Thanks again,
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 21, 2008 12:11PM
Quote
sistersoap
Re EEG's and life indications:
When I proposed to Thieme followers on one of their groups (pro Thieme) that babies in the womb were also known to have EEG brain waves, and thus, AT THE VERY LEAST must be considered to be HUMAN AND ALIVE in the womb, they protested furiously that this was ONLY TISSUE MOTILITY or some such silly invented term to describe babies before their birth.
They want it both ways, and they can't have it.
It is either both ends of life or neither.
Sistersoap
Truthtesty: Hey Sis,
Who is the originator of that statement? I dare that person to show thier face here. That just shows the public, how much of a "locked in" cult mindset they have, totally impervious (blindfold engaged - check! throttle up - check! no brakes - check! no brains - check! parrot for co-pilot - check! ready for takeoff - check! --- where she lands nobody knows) to any new evidence as long as what Thieme said (to them) is considered "abolute truth" and automatically worshiped as "absolute truth" above "obvious truth" and any new evidence.
Did they offer any evidence to differentiate between "tissue motility" and EEG brain waves? How is it that they know the difference between tissue motility of a human being diferentiated with X activity indications? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? AND "tissue motility" of a baby in the womb and/or "tissue motility" of an animal, MINUS "X activity indications"?
How do they subtract the value of "tissue motility" from "X activity"? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? including evidence which shows that "X activity" does not occur within babies or animals?
They don't do they? It's just PRETENTIOUS ACADEMIA. ONE PRETENTIOUSLY LABLED LIPSTICK LIE after another. Psuedo Academia and psuedo science.
Because if they can prove scientifically the electronic indications of the soul either "in humans" and/or the electronic indications of the soul "not in babies or animals". I am CERTAIN that the entire scientific world - the entire Christian world AND - the whole world in ti's entirety, would be intrested in that information. NOT CONTRARY TO IT.
I would be 1st in line to see this evidence. But? I haven't seen it yet.
So thiemites bring this "new breakthrough" to the public.
Also, Thieme's verbage was "impulse in the brain". Thieme did not disclude "tissue motility" in Thieme's "impulse in the brain" description. Did these people show how "tissue motility" was different than "impulse in the brain"? I think not, but again I dare these people to present what they have to say about Thieme's toutings of "impulse in the brain", MINUS "tissue motility", on this forum.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2008 12:34PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 21, 2008 12:21PM
Quote
radaphQuote
mile2
PastorThiemeisGreat2me:
I am curious to know how you explain the selection of Bobby Thieme as pastor of Berachah, when this clearly violates scripture. (I Tim. 3:2--" A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife." Are you aware that Bobby has been married and divorced 3 times? Yet Col. Thieme supported the choice of his son to succeed him.
I have asked this question of 3 others who spoke in favor of Thieme on this forum and each one was unable to defend him, and shortly afterward left the forum. How do you address this blatant disregard for God's Word by Thieme and his congregation?
mile2 (
I think 1Timothy 3:2 is saying that a pastor should not be a polygamist, more than anything. I don't think it's saying he should'nt be divorced or remarried. Scripture makes it clear that there sometimes biblical justification for divorce. Do you know why Bobby got divorced, whether or not it was biblical? I don't.
Still the verse that keeps coming to my mind is this one:
"Judge not lest ye be judged" and also "he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Pastors are gifted, but they are still just men. They sin too.
God forgave him, so should we.
Enough said about that.
I am an ex-Thiemite. I think many of the things I learned from Berachah from the time I was a small child until just about a year ago, were biblically wrong, and had a very negative effect on my spiritual life.
But I also think God uses people where they are. No church has the entire bible interpreted correctly. Everyone makes mistakes. But amazingly enough, God can use us inspite of our misunderstandings.
When I defended Berachah, I sited my personal experience as proof that the Col's ministry was good. I pointed out that I had a very happy life, and felt close to God. I had called on God many times, and seen Him deliver me on many occaisions.
Well, I'm not defending Berachah anymore, but those things I talked about are still true. And in spite of the fact that I was believing some lies, God was moving in my life, because I wanted Him to. I desired a relationship with God, and He honored that. He didn't reject me just because I was mistaken about rebound, or GAP.
I have this belief, and I think the bible backs me up, that if any church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to pay for the sins of the world, and that anyone can have eternal life by faith in Him, that we, as Christians should not attack that church in any way. They are our brothers, and sisters in Christ, and they are winning souls for the kingdom of God. They are not the enemy.
So if Berachah is a cult or not (I am still undecided), it is still a Christian church, who is very correct about the gospel and is helping to spread that gospel to the corners of the earth. So let's at least appreciate that, and recognize it, and stop talking about them like they are evil, and Thieme the anti-Christ.
Do what you want. I certainly have no authority here.
I removed myself from Berachah over a year ago, completely. And I feel like I am doing much better now. I am learning the truth about certain lies that I've always believed. And it's a work in progress. It will probably take a long time. But the church I attend now isn't perfect either. No church is perfect, and no pastor either. Your spiritual knowledge should not be the sole responsibility of any one pastor. It should mainly be a result of your personal bible study. But also, your local shepherd should help guide you in that. But if you do put all your eggs in one basket as it were, and that pastor leads you wrong in some areas, who's to blame really?
I do not listen to the Col or any of his off-shoot pastors anymore. I don't go to Berachah. After going through a deliverance session at my new church (which was about putting false teachings to death in my life, and moving forward), I drove by Berachah afterward. It was a Saturday and they were closed. I sat in my truck in front of the front entry, and said a prayer. I asked God to heal me from the lies that I learned, and to show everyone that attends that church the truth. But also to strenthen the truthes that are taught at Berachah. I didn't curse them, or anyone. I didn't tell God to avenge my wasted 30 years of my life. I just asked Him to reveal the truth to me and to everyone.
"If any man asks for wisdom, it will be freely given to him."
I don't know when I memorized that verse, but it was a long time ago, and I was attending Berachah. Me knowing scripture and knowing how to use it in my life, is not a waste of time. I am thankful for all the truthes I know, regardless of where I learned them. And I reject the lies, no matter where I learned them.
Just my opinion, as a newborn ex-Thiemite.
TO RADAPH,
thanks for this heart felt testimony, I am glad to hear you are making progress. Please don't mistake a correction of talse teaching or of unbiblical practice for counting a person as an unbeliever. It is certainly true that not everything we learned from Berachah was wrong or bad. But enough was wrong and bad that it had a bad influence on us and on our loved ones so that harm was done to the Body.
As for Bobby and his divorces, I don't judge him for those, but translating "husband of one wife" into only "one wife at a time" is adding to and changing the Words of God. Leadership is naturally held to a higher standard than the person in the pew, and God's standards should not be changed or added to or taken from in order to allow someone who does not meet these clear standards to take an office the bible says he is not entitled to. God knows there are always EXCELLENT reasons for each and every "rule" by which we should determine the qualifications of those seeking office in the Body of Christ local churches. We may not see the wisdom of such rules, but God put them there for a reason. It does not disqualifiy them for all service in the Body, but it definitely disqualifies them for specifically given offices, in the case, the office of pastor. This is not at all the same thing as unfairly judging a man because of a past sin which does not disqualify him for some position of serving in the church. It also does not mean we reject him as a person. We don't need to know details about Bobby's divorces! The fact that they exist and that there are three of them DISQUALIFIES him from pastoring a church ACCORDING TO THE CLEAR STANDARDS of the Words of God. Period.
it was good to hear how you are doing! I am glad to hear that you have found another church in which to worship and grow.
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 21, 2008 01:06PM
TO TRUTH TESTY re the EEG test for human life and the Thieme based beliefs
Well, that was not all they said, but telling me that the life in the womb was simply "reflex motility" settled the issue for them because that was what Thieme taught them, and he said it, therefore it must be true is the definition of cultic hero worship. At the time I never spoke up about this in my taper group because I KNEW nobody would agree, and I might possibly be ridiculed for differing from Thieme. When women we knew of had miscarriages and mourned their loss of the baby, they were LAUGHED AT by members of the taper group, especially by the leader's wife. This was Thieme's rep for this whole state! What an example of insensitive hardness of heart toward a major life crisis all because Thieme said this was not a human yet, because HE SAID it was not a human till it had taken its first breath outside the womb, therefore a woman having a miscarriage should not be affected by the loss!
So rev up those engines, Testy! It is lock step all the way once you are well trained in this Thieme group. It IS shocking to see that reasonable people cannot reason their way to any conclusion different from that of Thieme no matter what evidence is presented to them from other sources. One the most shocking replies in that Delphi group was from a NURSE. Gave me chills, it did.
Because of Thieme I kept my mouth shut far too long. Not any more. I think that is one test of recovery progressL the ability to SPEAK OUT against error and wrong when it is appropriate.
I visited that Thieme group to experience whether or not their attitudes and rational abilities were what I remembered mine to be when I was still a convinced follower. They were the same. I was exactly the same! It was a healthy humbling experience because I could see myself in all their answers.
Hard hearted to say the least.
Following man beyond what God's wrods say is idolatry.
Sistersoap
Well, that was not all they said, but telling me that the life in the womb was simply "reflex motility" settled the issue for them because that was what Thieme taught them, and he said it, therefore it must be true is the definition of cultic hero worship. At the time I never spoke up about this in my taper group because I KNEW nobody would agree, and I might possibly be ridiculed for differing from Thieme. When women we knew of had miscarriages and mourned their loss of the baby, they were LAUGHED AT by members of the taper group, especially by the leader's wife. This was Thieme's rep for this whole state! What an example of insensitive hardness of heart toward a major life crisis all because Thieme said this was not a human yet, because HE SAID it was not a human till it had taken its first breath outside the womb, therefore a woman having a miscarriage should not be affected by the loss!
So rev up those engines, Testy! It is lock step all the way once you are well trained in this Thieme group. It IS shocking to see that reasonable people cannot reason their way to any conclusion different from that of Thieme no matter what evidence is presented to them from other sources. One the most shocking replies in that Delphi group was from a NURSE. Gave me chills, it did.
Because of Thieme I kept my mouth shut far too long. Not any more. I think that is one test of recovery progressL the ability to SPEAK OUT against error and wrong when it is appropriate.
I visited that Thieme group to experience whether or not their attitudes and rational abilities were what I remembered mine to be when I was still a convinced follower. They were the same. I was exactly the same! It was a healthy humbling experience because I could see myself in all their answers.
Hard hearted to say the least.
Following man beyond what God's wrods say is idolatry.
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 22, 2008 02:35AM
Sistersoap TO TRUTH TESTY re the EEG test for human life and the Thieme based beliefs
Well, that was not all they said, but telling me that the life in the womb was simply "reflex motility" settled the issue for them because that was what Thieme taught them, and he said it, therefore it must be true is the definition of cultic hero worship.
Truthtesty: I agree, it is cult hero worship. They could have, if they had been edified properly, researched(Berean researched) Thieme. They could have simply compared and contrasted what Thieme said with looking at the internet or other medical professional sources. ie:
BOC 1979 RB Thieme JrTherefore, the heartbeat is not a reliable and conclusive sign of the presence of life. Medically speaking, instead of the electrocardiogram (EKG), the electroencephalogram (EEC), which measures the electrical impulses generated in the brain, is the true indicator of life or death.
COMPARED AND CONTRASTED WITH:
Handbook of Clinical Child Neuropsychology By Cecil R. Reynolds, Elaine Fletcher-Janzen: Human fetal EEG activity has been recorded as early as day 43 (Berstine, Borkowski, & Price 1955). Fetal EEG activity...
[books.google.com]
Truthtesty: So, "impulses generated in the brain" was measured in pregnancy, as early as day 43, in 1955. That's about 8 1/2 months before birth!
Sistersoap At the time I never spoke up about this in my taper group because I KNEW nobody would agree, and I might possibly be ridiculed for differing from Thieme.
Truthtesty: That's a tough thing. I understand. A lot of these people are NRA fantics and they carry loaded weapons in thier briefcases. But, unfortunately as difficult as it may seem, that is the time to say something in public and then leave. Steven Hassan wrote something to this effect in combatting cult mind control. You know you won't change everyone, but you will definitely get some people to think for themselves and maybe they will begin to question what is being said. It will take time. After a while, when they eventually burn out, they will start questioning more and seek help, but they will remember you.
Sistersoap When women we knew of had miscarriages and mourned their loss of the baby, they were LAUGHED AT by members of the taper group, especially by the leader's wife. This was Thieme's rep for this whole state! What an example of insensitive hardness of heart toward a major life crisis all because Thieme said this was not a human yet, because HE SAID it was not a human till it had taken its first breath outside the womb, therefore a woman having a miscarriage should not be affected by the loss!
Truthtesty: Thieme has hurt and dysfunctionalized so many lives. Grieving is necessary in life and so is comforting those who grieve. I know the cold-hearted "empty conscience" approach of thiemites to other christians, who are in major life crisis. Thieme relentlessly attacks any human emotion with extreme predjudice. But Thieme did not get that from Chafer:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 2, Page 194 2. Sensibility. This, another function of the immaterial part of man, is properly classed, also, as an important theme of psychology; yet there is much that is emotional in both God and man which is theological. In this respect man reflects or images that which is true of God. How vast is the love of God, and how real is the love and devotion of the human heart! Again, the human emotional nature, like the human intellect, may be wrought upon and enlarged experimentally by the power of the indwelling Spirit. “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us” (Rom. 5:5). The Scriptures declare that the divine compassion may find expression through the Christian and that it arises, not in the Christian’s capacity, but from the Spirit who indwells him. “The fruit of the Spirit is love” (Gal. 5:22; cf. 1 Cor. 13:1–13). The Christian, loving with divine love, will love those objects which God loves. The extent of such a possibility is limitless. This divine love being the actuating force, the emotions and life are lifted to the plane of that which is supernatural.
Truthtesty: They remind me of Darkseekers in the movie "I am legend". Only the darkseekers had a legitimate excuse, they had a biological virus! Thieme and thiemites have no excuse. You try to help them and they try to bite you. These thiemites live in an aquarium, disassociated from the real world. The real world has alot of pain in it. They think they are "10ft wide and bullet-proof", but they are not. It is very likely though that one day they will feel enough pain that they too will realize the value of thier own tears and thus learn the value of helping others in pain.
The woman who was the "state leader", is/was just plain sick.
Sistersoap So rev up those engines, Testy! It is lock step all the way once you are well trained in this Thieme group.
Truthtesty: LOL I was taking a jab at how thiemites relate everything in a absurd silly fashion to the military.
Sistersoap It IS shocking to see that reasonable people cannot reason their way to any conclusion different from that of Thieme no matter what evidence is presented to them from other sources. One the most shocking replies in that Delphi group was from a NURSE. Gave me chills, it did.
Truthtesty: It is shocking, but even though people are intelligent enough to get a degree or an advanced degree, they are still often susceptible to the coercive cult group dynamic. I think most know something is wrong, they just can't identify what is wrong. I remember how we were always to pretend everything was ok, but it wasn't ok. The nurse sounds "freaky".
Sistersoap Because of Thieme I kept my mouth shut far too long. Not any more. I think that is one test of recovery progressL the ability to SPEAK OUT against error and wrong when it is appropriate.
Truthtesty: Bravo! I completely agree. And I do speak out.
Sistersoap I visited that Thieme group to experience whether or not their attitudes and rational abilities were what I remembered mine to be when I was still a convinced follower. They were the same. I was exactly the same! It was a healthy humbling experience because I could see myself in all their answers.
Hard hearted to say the least.
Following man beyond what God's wrods say is idolatry.
Sistersoap
Truthtesty: It is idolatry. "The Colonel" falsely and coercively EQUATED his concept of the authority of his words AS EQUAL to the authority of God's WORD, with no respect for the position of "The Generals" of God's heritage before him, in the audience. In doing so, Thieme invalidated "The Generals" place and confused many a General, as to thier own personal authority and responsibility to study for themselves, DIRECTLY to God's perfect authority. Thieme failed to differentiate the hierachies of biblical authority and gentile authority. Instead Thieme tried to create an extremist militant imperial gentile-oriented political institution.
As Jesus said:
Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Truthtesty: Yes Thieme should have submitted to you. (Submit one to another). Thieme should have walked the isles and helped people learn. Thieme should have shook hands afterwards. Thieme should have found a way to humble himself. But instead Thieme created his own "kingdom of heaven" (on earth) for himself, coercively joining the commands of "Kingdom law" into Thieme's law.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 02:41AM by Truthtesty.
Well, that was not all they said, but telling me that the life in the womb was simply "reflex motility" settled the issue for them because that was what Thieme taught them, and he said it, therefore it must be true is the definition of cultic hero worship.
Truthtesty: I agree, it is cult hero worship. They could have, if they had been edified properly, researched(Berean researched) Thieme. They could have simply compared and contrasted what Thieme said with looking at the internet or other medical professional sources. ie:
BOC 1979 RB Thieme JrTherefore, the heartbeat is not a reliable and conclusive sign of the presence of life. Medically speaking, instead of the electrocardiogram (EKG), the electroencephalogram (EEC), which measures the electrical impulses generated in the brain, is the true indicator of life or death.
COMPARED AND CONTRASTED WITH:
Handbook of Clinical Child Neuropsychology By Cecil R. Reynolds, Elaine Fletcher-Janzen: Human fetal EEG activity has been recorded as early as day 43 (Berstine, Borkowski, & Price 1955). Fetal EEG activity...
[books.google.com]
Truthtesty: So, "impulses generated in the brain" was measured in pregnancy, as early as day 43, in 1955. That's about 8 1/2 months before birth!
Sistersoap At the time I never spoke up about this in my taper group because I KNEW nobody would agree, and I might possibly be ridiculed for differing from Thieme.
Truthtesty: That's a tough thing. I understand. A lot of these people are NRA fantics and they carry loaded weapons in thier briefcases. But, unfortunately as difficult as it may seem, that is the time to say something in public and then leave. Steven Hassan wrote something to this effect in combatting cult mind control. You know you won't change everyone, but you will definitely get some people to think for themselves and maybe they will begin to question what is being said. It will take time. After a while, when they eventually burn out, they will start questioning more and seek help, but they will remember you.
Sistersoap When women we knew of had miscarriages and mourned their loss of the baby, they were LAUGHED AT by members of the taper group, especially by the leader's wife. This was Thieme's rep for this whole state! What an example of insensitive hardness of heart toward a major life crisis all because Thieme said this was not a human yet, because HE SAID it was not a human till it had taken its first breath outside the womb, therefore a woman having a miscarriage should not be affected by the loss!
Truthtesty: Thieme has hurt and dysfunctionalized so many lives. Grieving is necessary in life and so is comforting those who grieve. I know the cold-hearted "empty conscience" approach of thiemites to other christians, who are in major life crisis. Thieme relentlessly attacks any human emotion with extreme predjudice. But Thieme did not get that from Chafer:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 2, Page 194 2. Sensibility. This, another function of the immaterial part of man, is properly classed, also, as an important theme of psychology; yet there is much that is emotional in both God and man which is theological. In this respect man reflects or images that which is true of God. How vast is the love of God, and how real is the love and devotion of the human heart! Again, the human emotional nature, like the human intellect, may be wrought upon and enlarged experimentally by the power of the indwelling Spirit. “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us” (Rom. 5:5). The Scriptures declare that the divine compassion may find expression through the Christian and that it arises, not in the Christian’s capacity, but from the Spirit who indwells him. “The fruit of the Spirit is love” (Gal. 5:22; cf. 1 Cor. 13:1–13). The Christian, loving with divine love, will love those objects which God loves. The extent of such a possibility is limitless. This divine love being the actuating force, the emotions and life are lifted to the plane of that which is supernatural.
Truthtesty: They remind me of Darkseekers in the movie "I am legend". Only the darkseekers had a legitimate excuse, they had a biological virus! Thieme and thiemites have no excuse. You try to help them and they try to bite you. These thiemites live in an aquarium, disassociated from the real world. The real world has alot of pain in it. They think they are "10ft wide and bullet-proof", but they are not. It is very likely though that one day they will feel enough pain that they too will realize the value of thier own tears and thus learn the value of helping others in pain.
The woman who was the "state leader", is/was just plain sick.
Sistersoap So rev up those engines, Testy! It is lock step all the way once you are well trained in this Thieme group.
Truthtesty: LOL I was taking a jab at how thiemites relate everything in a absurd silly fashion to the military.
Sistersoap It IS shocking to see that reasonable people cannot reason their way to any conclusion different from that of Thieme no matter what evidence is presented to them from other sources. One the most shocking replies in that Delphi group was from a NURSE. Gave me chills, it did.
Truthtesty: It is shocking, but even though people are intelligent enough to get a degree or an advanced degree, they are still often susceptible to the coercive cult group dynamic. I think most know something is wrong, they just can't identify what is wrong. I remember how we were always to pretend everything was ok, but it wasn't ok. The nurse sounds "freaky".
Sistersoap Because of Thieme I kept my mouth shut far too long. Not any more. I think that is one test of recovery progressL the ability to SPEAK OUT against error and wrong when it is appropriate.
Truthtesty: Bravo! I completely agree. And I do speak out.
Sistersoap I visited that Thieme group to experience whether or not their attitudes and rational abilities were what I remembered mine to be when I was still a convinced follower. They were the same. I was exactly the same! It was a healthy humbling experience because I could see myself in all their answers.
Hard hearted to say the least.
Following man beyond what God's wrods say is idolatry.
Sistersoap
Truthtesty: It is idolatry. "The Colonel" falsely and coercively EQUATED his concept of the authority of his words AS EQUAL to the authority of God's WORD, with no respect for the position of "The Generals" of God's heritage before him, in the audience. In doing so, Thieme invalidated "The Generals" place and confused many a General, as to thier own personal authority and responsibility to study for themselves, DIRECTLY to God's perfect authority. Thieme failed to differentiate the hierachies of biblical authority and gentile authority. Instead Thieme tried to create an extremist militant imperial gentile-oriented political institution.
As Jesus said:
Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Truthtesty: Yes Thieme should have submitted to you. (Submit one to another). Thieme should have walked the isles and helped people learn. Thieme should have shook hands afterwards. Thieme should have found a way to humble himself. But instead Thieme created his own "kingdom of heaven" (on earth) for himself, coercively joining the commands of "Kingdom law" into Thieme's law.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2008 02:41AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 22, 2008 09:50AM
TO PastorThiemeisGreat2me
RE
May 03, 2008 05:05PM
page 127 of this thread
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
PTISG2M SAID:
TT you have to remember that it's the sins of mankind that has to be atoned for so why would God come as an Angel of Jehovah. That would not make sence. The God man not the God angel had to pay for the sins of man since Adam and the Woman sinned. The second Adam a perfect man had to be judged. His humanity had to be judged. The sins of mankind had to be judged on a perfect man.
my COMMENT:
You are correct about an angel could not be a substitute for man's sins. However the "Angel of Jehovah" was a pre incarnate appearance of the Second Person of the Trinity, God, the Son, who became Jesus Christ, in his real human body, which HAD TO DIE as part of the penalty he paid for our sins. And he is called in Scripture THE LAST ADAM, not the SECOND Adam for some very important reasons
OU SAID:
Christ died spiritually before he died physically. His spiritual death occurred when he screamed Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani My God My God why have you forsaken me. Jesus Christ made it clear that God the Father with whom he had an unbroken relationship had to break that relationship for the 3 hours that Christ bore our sins on the cross. Since it is immposible for diety to die God the Son had to become a man in order to pay the penalty of sin, to take our place. (Mat 27:31-50; Mk 15:20-37; Lk 23:26-46; John19:25-38.)
MY COMMENT:
The assumption is that Thieme is correct in identifying "spiritual death" of Christ on the Cross with that time period when He cried out that the Father had forsaken Him. This is not stated in Scripture. BOTH deaths had to happen, as BOTH kinds were incurred by Adam's sin in the Garden, and BOTH were inherited by all his human descendants.
YOU SAID:
The unity of the Faith and the gift God distributed and gave to men in God's family to carry out that function of bringing that unit. Eph:4:1-6 and 7-11.
Pastors will have to give an account. Greek= APODIDOMI is the root word for APODUSONTES which is in the Nomnative. plural Future active participle, Meaning to render a due, to give an answer to a claim or expectation, and with it's grammtical construction meaning now and in the future at the judgement seat of Christ.
Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17
So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.
MY COMMENT:
What exegesis? You can get the truth you need from the King James English!
YOU SAID:
Some of my Christian teachers I've learned from through Book, TV or Radio or in person have been Dr J Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, Hilton Sutton, Clarence Larkin, D L Moody, C I Scofield D.D., Rev Joseph Brown, Rev Steve Harnett, L.S. Chaffer and RBT tops the list and is Great to me.
Some reasons WHY I consider RBT to be Great to me is, I believe God has used him to help bridge the gap between the 1st century Church and it's teachings and cultural times and the stepped up attacks of Satan with his false doctrines and the doctrines that man has confused up to and in the 20th and 21st century. By bridging that Gap with the ICE teaching we are brought closer to what the 1st century church learned.
MY COMMENT:
We don't have ICE teaching in the New Testament. Paul did not engage in it to teach the Body of Christ in his day. I wonder why? He was certainly intelligent enough. He had all kinds of languages and training. He memorized the Old Testament. He was the most highly trained of the young rabbis in Israel of his day. He never did any of this kind of thing when teaching the churches through his epistles. He simply told them what God had put on his heart to say. He never went into this kind of excruciating detail which FOR THE MOST PART does not edify the listener except to overly impress the man in the pew with the "learning" of the man in the pulpit. Hardly anything worth knowing or that we NEED to know is ONLY found by Greek and Hebrew. Certainly there is no such command in old or new testament literature. Sure, most of them spoke the "original languages" which the literature in question was written in. The closest example I can thing of is in Ezra's day when he taught the multitudes during Nehemiah's building program in Jerusalem.
SEE:
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Neh 8:13 And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.
etc.
There is a place for "scholarship" but when it does not contribute directly to UNDERSTANDING it is showing off. I for one had my fill of mindless repetition all those years. It trained me all too well to accept without question whatever Thieme was teaching, and his fear mongering did nothing positive either. If you were to pare things down to meat, directly related to the text at hand, removing all the "cultural asides" and the "readings" having nothing to do with the Bible at the beginnings of the classes, one could have had lots more time to genuinely TEACH THE TEXT and make sure the MEANING was clear, IN CONTEXT. We never got around to context with Thieme. Never got to reasoning through what was actually being said, just more and more Greek and endless points of "doctrines" that had very little to do with the thought the WRITER had to say to the recipients of the letter being studied. And who had time to check out all those supposedly relevant Scripture references that supposedly supported all those "points of doctrine" Thieme thunderously declared to us as if they were actually Scripture themselves? "Never drink alone" among the many points he gave in the "doctrine of drinking" which supposedly expounded the passage in Genesis when Noah gets drunk?? How edifying is that Scripturally speaking?
Thieme made a god of his "ICE" CONCEPT. His followers, myself among them, said amen, brother. And I followed just like all the other sheep.
Thieme was so "scholarly" that he CAREFULLY APED HIS TEACHERS and never mentioned the TWO possible TEXTS for the New Testament. How did such a learned man miss that? All that history and linguistic knowledge behind the Textus Receptus was totally ignored, mainly because Thieme was taught to ignore and ridicule it without investigating it at all. What kind of Scholarship is that? The same kind of INDOCTRINATION Thieme was handing out from his pulpit. His view was the only view, and his method was unparalelled in theological circles. Sure the conditions then in theological circles were bad and getting worse. It made a man who was teaching systematically through the Bible look really conservative, attractive to "all serious students of the Word of God," as Thieme called his followers, as long as they continued to follow him. If they broke off, they became dumb and ignorant fools just waiting for God to kill them for leaving the truth according to Thieme.
So Thieme's ICE methodology is not an excuse for his errors, nor his methodology. It is not a guarantee of accuracy or of edification to his hearers. He is living proof of how smart you can be and still teach hollow facts twisted by an increasingly unbalanced personality and still get away with it looking faultless to his adoring students.
The Scripture says LOVE EDIFIES, not knowledge. It says KNOWLEDGE PUFFETH UP. There was precious little love from the Berachah pulpit or in the tape groups meeting around the country. You don't make lasting friends in places like that. You can't have free wheeling conversations on important subjects with others in the group, unless you just want to continue to parrot what Thieme says, and admire him, and put down others he ridicules from the pulpit. That is not a conversation. It is a cheer leading squad. It is not a reflection of the Body of Christ. It is the Mind of Thieme.
YOU SAID:
RBT's diligent study to acquire the tools to study and research then the use of those tools along with his dedication of many years of study and teaching, even his 8-16 hour periods of researching individual words in certain passages of the original languages to make sure he would be correct in his evaluations of passages is a sign of his tireless effort and dedication to be accurate and please the Lord. No Pastor or teacher is perfect and that includes all the ones I've studied under and myself as well. But we are all servants of Christ.
MY COMMENT:
Name some of the imperfections of Thieme. Give examples. Come on. If you can't name them, they aren't real to you because you never thought about his having any real, specific ones while under his teaching authority.
YOU SAID:
To me Through the use of his ICE method of teaching and evaluating the Word of God the Mystery doctrines of Christ have been made clearer to me, the road to spiritual maturity has been made more lucid and the mechanics of how to live the Christian way of life has been explained so as to be able to apply Biblical doctrines resulting in spiritual maturity being experienced in the thinking and my day to day life of any Christian who cares to follow that road and all for free without financial obligation. Many others have been benefitted.
MY COMMENT:
ALL THIS IS THIEME TERMINOLOGY. Jargon learned in Thieme Bible class.
YOU SAID:
Reaching Spiritual maturity and the accumulated wisdom by diligent study does not mean one reaches perfection. But it does mean that the application of those Biblical doctrines can be applied to every circumstance in life that the Christian faces whereby they can maintain pose and peace of mind and happiness of God and from God. Through understanding accurately God's word one is blessed and to whom much is given much is required.
MY COMMENT:
Have you personally reached Spiritual Maturity yet? If you have not, then you should know that YOU ARE PSYCHOTIC according to Thieme in some of his later teachings. Yes, friend, the IMMATURE BELIEVER IS PYSCHOTIC. Straight from Bob Thieme! I bet you did not know that, did you?
YOU SAID:
Not to discredit any of the other Ministers in my life but RBT has taken me by God's grace into a closer relationship with my Lord and Savior and my God the Heavenly Father. The system of ICE teaching to me is the major reason that I have accumulated wisdom and desire to acquire more. Although learning from my own personal study and from others teachers God has kept me advancing with the help of and ministry Pastor RBThieme. Many others use the ICE teaching method also.
MY COMMENT:
More Thieme jargon. Can't you use BIBLE TERMS for Bible concepts? Why not? If what Thieme says is really in the Bible, then you ought to be able to point it out to us, and prove in context that this is what the Bible is actually teaching
YOU SAID:
Definitions of cult:
MY QUESTION:
Source?
YOU:
Noun: a system of religious beliefs and rituals
Example: "Devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
Noun: adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
Noun: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal
MY COMMENT:
Actually, by these definitions, you qalify along with all Thieme followers as a cultist. You skipped over all the negative definitions.
YOU SAID:
Why I think people call his ministry a cult is because of the knowledge and doctrines and accuracy gathered from the original languages and the thorough evaluation by means of ICE that others in the past have never gathered themselves or did not research to gather or never thought about investigating what was taught previously to them and thereby just accepting what was the norm of doctrine taught them for centuries without the benefit of ICE.
MY COMMENT:
So we are jealous of his "great learning?" We don't have it so we call his teaching and his church cultic? Oh come on. You can do better than that, can't you? Look at this forum and its definitions. Why do you think this THREAD IS CALLED DESTRUCTIVE CHURCHES? You are not dealing with the more pertinent definitions of cult and I think you know it.
YOU SAID:
These different doctrinal views are challenged by those who hold to the more traditional doctrine and do not agree with the current evaluation from ICE by applying the word "cult" to those who teach and accept those views.
MY REPLY:
That is a VERY SHALLOW evaluation for such a "smart" person. Only smart people stick with Bob Thieme's teachings. I myself stuck with it for almost thirty years. I was verrry smart all that time, but after that, I got very dumb and left. I have been dumb and jealous of Thieme's "scholarship" ever since
YOU SAID:
I= isagogics helped bridge the gap by teaching a little more detail about the customs and culture of the people and of the periods of times the Bible and passage was written in. It takes us back into history and gives us a more vivid realization of what others experienced when they had learned and applied Bible doctrine. The Bible has to be taught with those things in consideration to acquire a more accurate understanding.
MY COMMENT:
This can be gathered by reading readily available reference books, especially now that we have the Internet
YOU SAID ABOUT THIEME'S "CATEGORIES:"
C= categories really helps with the dissolving the confusion that exist with so many Ministers teaching so many different doctrines and who have so many different views that it would be hard pressed to take a dogmatic stand on any doctrine or truth without the complete evaluation of any subject. The apostles were not confused but they spoke, thought and wrote in the original languages of scripture. Most of us today do not have that luxury of knowing the Koine Greek or the other original languages of the Bible, but if Pastors devote themselves to acquiring those tools the unity of the faith would be compressed whereby narrowing down with documentation and text what is accurate and what is false would be acquired by all believers.
REPLY:
Categories" is Thieme's term for HIS CATEGORIES which he has invented along with special terms, non biblical, to "help us understand the bible" HIS WAY. Apart from his specially invented "categories" you say we are 'confused'.....No, his categories become your vocabulary and that of the group is exclusive and rigid. It is not Biblical, you cannot discuss them outside of the group without lengthy training and explaining. This isolates you from outsiders and outside scholarship, I might add. That does create confusion, but it is in the mind of The Thieme Devotee
YOU SAID ABOUT EXEGESIS:
E= Exegesis is the use of the original languages of scripture to study learn and teach to evaluate the doctrines of the Bible. The evaluation based on the grammar, syntax, ethamology of words and many other theological research systems are used to bring forth the Word of Truth accurately. This is the main job of a Pastor-Teacher. For this is a main key and foundation of any doctrine taught especially the mysteries of Christ.
COMMENT:
THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST DOCTRINE is available to anyone who can read a well translated Bible in his native language, which we are assuming is English for most people coming to this board. It is not esoteric, and the Apostle Paul was its exclusive teacher, having been given to him directly by Jesus Christ. It is not all that hard, and it does not take years and years of specialized teaching to understand it. It does take the ability to set aside what you have been taught by man, and take the Words of God on the page literally and in context. Read the Words for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to you FROM THE PAGES OF SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU. You don't need Bob Thieme to get it! If you did, how did the Holy Spirit manage all those centuries without him? It is true that much error was in the churches even in Paul's time, and It is my opinion that Paul's special teachings were lost early on, and that is how we got such an avalanche of false teaching, and ritualistic heretical churchianity for a thousand years or so. Paul said in Galatians let anyone teaching ANY OTHER GOSPEL THAN HIS be accursed! His gospel was the mystery doctrine which had been hid until then. If you can read Paul's epistles in English, you can understand it, if you are born again. It does not take a PhD! it does not require THIEME OR ONE LIKE HIM to get truth. His "scholarship" has caused you and others to worship his "learning" and to miss the basics available freely to everyone who can read. And nowadays, I would rather discuss truth with a janitor who never graduated high school, but who either reads the Word himself, or listens carefully when others read it to him or around him, or in church. The appeal to learning is a bogus method of impressing people. In Thieme' s case he took it so seriously, that he convinced others he was the best, bar none, and went from there.
NO we who have left are not jealous of Thieme or his learning. Others who had the same education have gone further with it than Thieme did. He holed up in his study and claimed it was total dedication to his congregation. Read Joe Wall's descriptions of his study and preparation methods. After thirty years or so they look like automatic cut and paste jobs to me. His copy writers have taken his notes and turned them into literature.
Finally, if it is NEW it is not truth since the Canon closed. If is TRUTH it is not new for the same reason. The real battle is with the question, WHICH TEXT and WHICH BIBLE do you use and why, and Thieme gave short shrift to that area of study. I dug it out myself years after leaving Thieme. Suppose you try it for yourself. But first, you will have to learn to NOT LIMIT YOUR THINKING TO THIEME CATEGORIES. They will not be in any of the indexes of the books outside Thieme written materials. Those categories for the most part are not biblical, and the ones that are, have been so altered and added to by Thieme, that they are almost unrecognizable by traditional, non Thieme bible believers.
YOU SAID:
Example: The words translated "IF" in the KJV or other English translations have 4 different Greek meanings, but all are translated using the one word "IF". Therefore unless you know which one is being used you can not end up with an accurate translation or meaning or understanding or application. Well your chances are 25%.So with a thorough evaluation of scriptures with the help of a qualified Pastor whom you trust we all can come to a unity of the Faith and doctrine in which God intended. The first century Church with all there accuracy still had false teachers and those who taught doctrine that was not sound doctrine. The water is very, very muddy today but with the ICE teaching system God's accurate truth will be learned thereby producing more mature Christians and a more unified Christian body of Christ, the Church. Winner believers who will not be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
TT I hope this helps your unbelief or educate you as to why I like his ministry and that method of teaching.
REPLY:
The IF example is short and easily learned without Thieme. It does not prove Thieme's extreme learning is unattainable through other channels or teachers. TESTY TRUTH quotes Chafer extensively and well. He writes so almost anyone reading carefully can understand what he is talking about. Categorizing "doctrine" is something Thieme needed more of, in the standard theological sense, not less of. Joe Wall recommended Thieme should have brushed up on his SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY instead of trying to "do it all himself" because his weakness in this area got him into trouble, unrecognized by himself or his faithful followers. Instead of that, Thieme invented his own system and went further from Scripture than ever. I also think it is a product of a "lone ranger" authority, unteachable by others who could correct his weaknesses. If you would actually READ CHAFER AS TESTY QUOTES HIM you would notice that Thieme's terminology is not there. It is not a product of Thieme's self promoted "genius" it is the result of a limited ability to exist outside of a hothouse arrangement of adoring followers who accept all you teach as if it were itself IN THE BIBLE which under Thieme you don't study independently because he teaches you NOT TO
Sistersoap
RE
May 03, 2008 05:05PM
page 127 of this thread
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
PTISG2M SAID:
TT you have to remember that it's the sins of mankind that has to be atoned for so why would God come as an Angel of Jehovah. That would not make sence. The God man not the God angel had to pay for the sins of man since Adam and the Woman sinned. The second Adam a perfect man had to be judged. His humanity had to be judged. The sins of mankind had to be judged on a perfect man.
my COMMENT:
You are correct about an angel could not be a substitute for man's sins. However the "Angel of Jehovah" was a pre incarnate appearance of the Second Person of the Trinity, God, the Son, who became Jesus Christ, in his real human body, which HAD TO DIE as part of the penalty he paid for our sins. And he is called in Scripture THE LAST ADAM, not the SECOND Adam for some very important reasons
OU SAID:
Christ died spiritually before he died physically. His spiritual death occurred when he screamed Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani My God My God why have you forsaken me. Jesus Christ made it clear that God the Father with whom he had an unbroken relationship had to break that relationship for the 3 hours that Christ bore our sins on the cross. Since it is immposible for diety to die God the Son had to become a man in order to pay the penalty of sin, to take our place. (Mat 27:31-50; Mk 15:20-37; Lk 23:26-46; John19:25-38.)
MY COMMENT:
The assumption is that Thieme is correct in identifying "spiritual death" of Christ on the Cross with that time period when He cried out that the Father had forsaken Him. This is not stated in Scripture. BOTH deaths had to happen, as BOTH kinds were incurred by Adam's sin in the Garden, and BOTH were inherited by all his human descendants.
YOU SAID:
The unity of the Faith and the gift God distributed and gave to men in God's family to carry out that function of bringing that unit. Eph:4:1-6 and 7-11.
Pastors will have to give an account. Greek= APODIDOMI is the root word for APODUSONTES which is in the Nomnative. plural Future active participle, Meaning to render a due, to give an answer to a claim or expectation, and with it's grammtical construction meaning now and in the future at the judgement seat of Christ.
Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17
So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.
MY COMMENT:
What exegesis? You can get the truth you need from the King James English!
YOU SAID:
Some of my Christian teachers I've learned from through Book, TV or Radio or in person have been Dr J Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, Hilton Sutton, Clarence Larkin, D L Moody, C I Scofield D.D., Rev Joseph Brown, Rev Steve Harnett, L.S. Chaffer and RBT tops the list and is Great to me.
Some reasons WHY I consider RBT to be Great to me is, I believe God has used him to help bridge the gap between the 1st century Church and it's teachings and cultural times and the stepped up attacks of Satan with his false doctrines and the doctrines that man has confused up to and in the 20th and 21st century. By bridging that Gap with the ICE teaching we are brought closer to what the 1st century church learned.
MY COMMENT:
We don't have ICE teaching in the New Testament. Paul did not engage in it to teach the Body of Christ in his day. I wonder why? He was certainly intelligent enough. He had all kinds of languages and training. He memorized the Old Testament. He was the most highly trained of the young rabbis in Israel of his day. He never did any of this kind of thing when teaching the churches through his epistles. He simply told them what God had put on his heart to say. He never went into this kind of excruciating detail which FOR THE MOST PART does not edify the listener except to overly impress the man in the pew with the "learning" of the man in the pulpit. Hardly anything worth knowing or that we NEED to know is ONLY found by Greek and Hebrew. Certainly there is no such command in old or new testament literature. Sure, most of them spoke the "original languages" which the literature in question was written in. The closest example I can thing of is in Ezra's day when he taught the multitudes during Nehemiah's building program in Jerusalem.
SEE:
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Neh 8:13 And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.
etc.
There is a place for "scholarship" but when it does not contribute directly to UNDERSTANDING it is showing off. I for one had my fill of mindless repetition all those years. It trained me all too well to accept without question whatever Thieme was teaching, and his fear mongering did nothing positive either. If you were to pare things down to meat, directly related to the text at hand, removing all the "cultural asides" and the "readings" having nothing to do with the Bible at the beginnings of the classes, one could have had lots more time to genuinely TEACH THE TEXT and make sure the MEANING was clear, IN CONTEXT. We never got around to context with Thieme. Never got to reasoning through what was actually being said, just more and more Greek and endless points of "doctrines" that had very little to do with the thought the WRITER had to say to the recipients of the letter being studied. And who had time to check out all those supposedly relevant Scripture references that supposedly supported all those "points of doctrine" Thieme thunderously declared to us as if they were actually Scripture themselves? "Never drink alone" among the many points he gave in the "doctrine of drinking" which supposedly expounded the passage in Genesis when Noah gets drunk?? How edifying is that Scripturally speaking?
Thieme made a god of his "ICE" CONCEPT. His followers, myself among them, said amen, brother. And I followed just like all the other sheep.
Thieme was so "scholarly" that he CAREFULLY APED HIS TEACHERS and never mentioned the TWO possible TEXTS for the New Testament. How did such a learned man miss that? All that history and linguistic knowledge behind the Textus Receptus was totally ignored, mainly because Thieme was taught to ignore and ridicule it without investigating it at all. What kind of Scholarship is that? The same kind of INDOCTRINATION Thieme was handing out from his pulpit. His view was the only view, and his method was unparalelled in theological circles. Sure the conditions then in theological circles were bad and getting worse. It made a man who was teaching systematically through the Bible look really conservative, attractive to "all serious students of the Word of God," as Thieme called his followers, as long as they continued to follow him. If they broke off, they became dumb and ignorant fools just waiting for God to kill them for leaving the truth according to Thieme.
So Thieme's ICE methodology is not an excuse for his errors, nor his methodology. It is not a guarantee of accuracy or of edification to his hearers. He is living proof of how smart you can be and still teach hollow facts twisted by an increasingly unbalanced personality and still get away with it looking faultless to his adoring students.
The Scripture says LOVE EDIFIES, not knowledge. It says KNOWLEDGE PUFFETH UP. There was precious little love from the Berachah pulpit or in the tape groups meeting around the country. You don't make lasting friends in places like that. You can't have free wheeling conversations on important subjects with others in the group, unless you just want to continue to parrot what Thieme says, and admire him, and put down others he ridicules from the pulpit. That is not a conversation. It is a cheer leading squad. It is not a reflection of the Body of Christ. It is the Mind of Thieme.
YOU SAID:
RBT's diligent study to acquire the tools to study and research then the use of those tools along with his dedication of many years of study and teaching, even his 8-16 hour periods of researching individual words in certain passages of the original languages to make sure he would be correct in his evaluations of passages is a sign of his tireless effort and dedication to be accurate and please the Lord. No Pastor or teacher is perfect and that includes all the ones I've studied under and myself as well. But we are all servants of Christ.
MY COMMENT:
Name some of the imperfections of Thieme. Give examples. Come on. If you can't name them, they aren't real to you because you never thought about his having any real, specific ones while under his teaching authority.
YOU SAID:
To me Through the use of his ICE method of teaching and evaluating the Word of God the Mystery doctrines of Christ have been made clearer to me, the road to spiritual maturity has been made more lucid and the mechanics of how to live the Christian way of life has been explained so as to be able to apply Biblical doctrines resulting in spiritual maturity being experienced in the thinking and my day to day life of any Christian who cares to follow that road and all for free without financial obligation. Many others have been benefitted.
MY COMMENT:
ALL THIS IS THIEME TERMINOLOGY. Jargon learned in Thieme Bible class.
YOU SAID:
Reaching Spiritual maturity and the accumulated wisdom by diligent study does not mean one reaches perfection. But it does mean that the application of those Biblical doctrines can be applied to every circumstance in life that the Christian faces whereby they can maintain pose and peace of mind and happiness of God and from God. Through understanding accurately God's word one is blessed and to whom much is given much is required.
MY COMMENT:
Have you personally reached Spiritual Maturity yet? If you have not, then you should know that YOU ARE PSYCHOTIC according to Thieme in some of his later teachings. Yes, friend, the IMMATURE BELIEVER IS PYSCHOTIC. Straight from Bob Thieme! I bet you did not know that, did you?
YOU SAID:
Not to discredit any of the other Ministers in my life but RBT has taken me by God's grace into a closer relationship with my Lord and Savior and my God the Heavenly Father. The system of ICE teaching to me is the major reason that I have accumulated wisdom and desire to acquire more. Although learning from my own personal study and from others teachers God has kept me advancing with the help of and ministry Pastor RBThieme. Many others use the ICE teaching method also.
MY COMMENT:
More Thieme jargon. Can't you use BIBLE TERMS for Bible concepts? Why not? If what Thieme says is really in the Bible, then you ought to be able to point it out to us, and prove in context that this is what the Bible is actually teaching
YOU SAID:
Definitions of cult:
MY QUESTION:
Source?
YOU:
Noun: a system of religious beliefs and rituals
Example: "Devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
Noun: adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
Noun: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal
MY COMMENT:
Actually, by these definitions, you qalify along with all Thieme followers as a cultist. You skipped over all the negative definitions.
YOU SAID:
Why I think people call his ministry a cult is because of the knowledge and doctrines and accuracy gathered from the original languages and the thorough evaluation by means of ICE that others in the past have never gathered themselves or did not research to gather or never thought about investigating what was taught previously to them and thereby just accepting what was the norm of doctrine taught them for centuries without the benefit of ICE.
MY COMMENT:
So we are jealous of his "great learning?" We don't have it so we call his teaching and his church cultic? Oh come on. You can do better than that, can't you? Look at this forum and its definitions. Why do you think this THREAD IS CALLED DESTRUCTIVE CHURCHES? You are not dealing with the more pertinent definitions of cult and I think you know it.
YOU SAID:
These different doctrinal views are challenged by those who hold to the more traditional doctrine and do not agree with the current evaluation from ICE by applying the word "cult" to those who teach and accept those views.
MY REPLY:
That is a VERY SHALLOW evaluation for such a "smart" person. Only smart people stick with Bob Thieme's teachings. I myself stuck with it for almost thirty years. I was verrry smart all that time, but after that, I got very dumb and left. I have been dumb and jealous of Thieme's "scholarship" ever since
YOU SAID:
I= isagogics helped bridge the gap by teaching a little more detail about the customs and culture of the people and of the periods of times the Bible and passage was written in. It takes us back into history and gives us a more vivid realization of what others experienced when they had learned and applied Bible doctrine. The Bible has to be taught with those things in consideration to acquire a more accurate understanding.
MY COMMENT:
This can be gathered by reading readily available reference books, especially now that we have the Internet
YOU SAID ABOUT THIEME'S "CATEGORIES:"
C= categories really helps with the dissolving the confusion that exist with so many Ministers teaching so many different doctrines and who have so many different views that it would be hard pressed to take a dogmatic stand on any doctrine or truth without the complete evaluation of any subject. The apostles were not confused but they spoke, thought and wrote in the original languages of scripture. Most of us today do not have that luxury of knowing the Koine Greek or the other original languages of the Bible, but if Pastors devote themselves to acquiring those tools the unity of the faith would be compressed whereby narrowing down with documentation and text what is accurate and what is false would be acquired by all believers.
REPLY:
Categories" is Thieme's term for HIS CATEGORIES which he has invented along with special terms, non biblical, to "help us understand the bible" HIS WAY. Apart from his specially invented "categories" you say we are 'confused'.....No, his categories become your vocabulary and that of the group is exclusive and rigid. It is not Biblical, you cannot discuss them outside of the group without lengthy training and explaining. This isolates you from outsiders and outside scholarship, I might add. That does create confusion, but it is in the mind of The Thieme Devotee
YOU SAID ABOUT EXEGESIS:
E= Exegesis is the use of the original languages of scripture to study learn and teach to evaluate the doctrines of the Bible. The evaluation based on the grammar, syntax, ethamology of words and many other theological research systems are used to bring forth the Word of Truth accurately. This is the main job of a Pastor-Teacher. For this is a main key and foundation of any doctrine taught especially the mysteries of Christ.
COMMENT:
THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST DOCTRINE is available to anyone who can read a well translated Bible in his native language, which we are assuming is English for most people coming to this board. It is not esoteric, and the Apostle Paul was its exclusive teacher, having been given to him directly by Jesus Christ. It is not all that hard, and it does not take years and years of specialized teaching to understand it. It does take the ability to set aside what you have been taught by man, and take the Words of God on the page literally and in context. Read the Words for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to you FROM THE PAGES OF SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU. You don't need Bob Thieme to get it! If you did, how did the Holy Spirit manage all those centuries without him? It is true that much error was in the churches even in Paul's time, and It is my opinion that Paul's special teachings were lost early on, and that is how we got such an avalanche of false teaching, and ritualistic heretical churchianity for a thousand years or so. Paul said in Galatians let anyone teaching ANY OTHER GOSPEL THAN HIS be accursed! His gospel was the mystery doctrine which had been hid until then. If you can read Paul's epistles in English, you can understand it, if you are born again. It does not take a PhD! it does not require THIEME OR ONE LIKE HIM to get truth. His "scholarship" has caused you and others to worship his "learning" and to miss the basics available freely to everyone who can read. And nowadays, I would rather discuss truth with a janitor who never graduated high school, but who either reads the Word himself, or listens carefully when others read it to him or around him, or in church. The appeal to learning is a bogus method of impressing people. In Thieme' s case he took it so seriously, that he convinced others he was the best, bar none, and went from there.
NO we who have left are not jealous of Thieme or his learning. Others who had the same education have gone further with it than Thieme did. He holed up in his study and claimed it was total dedication to his congregation. Read Joe Wall's descriptions of his study and preparation methods. After thirty years or so they look like automatic cut and paste jobs to me. His copy writers have taken his notes and turned them into literature.
Finally, if it is NEW it is not truth since the Canon closed. If is TRUTH it is not new for the same reason. The real battle is with the question, WHICH TEXT and WHICH BIBLE do you use and why, and Thieme gave short shrift to that area of study. I dug it out myself years after leaving Thieme. Suppose you try it for yourself. But first, you will have to learn to NOT LIMIT YOUR THINKING TO THIEME CATEGORIES. They will not be in any of the indexes of the books outside Thieme written materials. Those categories for the most part are not biblical, and the ones that are, have been so altered and added to by Thieme, that they are almost unrecognizable by traditional, non Thieme bible believers.
YOU SAID:
Example: The words translated "IF" in the KJV or other English translations have 4 different Greek meanings, but all are translated using the one word "IF". Therefore unless you know which one is being used you can not end up with an accurate translation or meaning or understanding or application. Well your chances are 25%.So with a thorough evaluation of scriptures with the help of a qualified Pastor whom you trust we all can come to a unity of the Faith and doctrine in which God intended. The first century Church with all there accuracy still had false teachers and those who taught doctrine that was not sound doctrine. The water is very, very muddy today but with the ICE teaching system God's accurate truth will be learned thereby producing more mature Christians and a more unified Christian body of Christ, the Church. Winner believers who will not be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
TT I hope this helps your unbelief or educate you as to why I like his ministry and that method of teaching.
REPLY:
The IF example is short and easily learned without Thieme. It does not prove Thieme's extreme learning is unattainable through other channels or teachers. TESTY TRUTH quotes Chafer extensively and well. He writes so almost anyone reading carefully can understand what he is talking about. Categorizing "doctrine" is something Thieme needed more of, in the standard theological sense, not less of. Joe Wall recommended Thieme should have brushed up on his SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY instead of trying to "do it all himself" because his weakness in this area got him into trouble, unrecognized by himself or his faithful followers. Instead of that, Thieme invented his own system and went further from Scripture than ever. I also think it is a product of a "lone ranger" authority, unteachable by others who could correct his weaknesses. If you would actually READ CHAFER AS TESTY QUOTES HIM you would notice that Thieme's terminology is not there. It is not a product of Thieme's self promoted "genius" it is the result of a limited ability to exist outside of a hothouse arrangement of adoring followers who accept all you teach as if it were itself IN THE BIBLE which under Thieme you don't study independently because he teaches you NOT TO
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 22, 2008 10:06AM
TO PastorThiemeisGreat2me
May 08, 2008 10:15PM
PAGE 129 of this thread
FROM SISTERSOAP, My remarks below are in {{{xxx}}}:
QUOTE FROM TRUTH TESTY :
TT: Note to moderator: Most of this information would be shocking to most thiemites who have never heard it before, yet PastorThiemeisGreat2m is unremarkably silent on any new information and continues to relentlessly generalize praise for Thieme instead, just as genez and all the other thiemites. It is likely that PastorThiemeisGreat2m is one of the former thiemites on this forum and is now just trying a different approach of attack.
FROM PASTORTHIEMEISGREAT2ME TO TRUTH TESTY:
When i said "see yah" it was my intention to leave until TT kept stating things that I should address in all fairness to myself and others. He might want me to leave without commenting on those things but it would give him reason to accuse witout rebutal. Example:
WRONG again TT. I am not someone who has ever been on this site before as another person. I am bringing a different approach because I am a different person with one more testimony to dispute your claim that we are a CULT.
{{{Your comments just confirm your cultish devotion to Thieme's teachings and your INABILITY TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THIEME "CATEGORIES." Your approach is nearly word for word, and certainly thought for thought IDENTICAL TO MANY ANOTHER poster here defending Thieme. You do not even recognize that you are stuck inside the Thieme system! You continue to use Thieme terminology and can't see that you are doing that, or that that is not biblical.}}}
YOU are WRONG when you say that and so I've given my viewpoint as one more person who says you are ignorant and WRONG, ignorant of the facts of my life and how RBT has helped me emmencely in my understandiing of scripture and the other ministers as well but mainly Pastor Thieme's system of teaching. You use LS Chafer's system. And Dr Wall's system but you are wasting time that you should be using to growing spiritually and one can not build their ministry or there spiritual growth on tarring down anothers ministry. That is God's job to end a Pastors ministry or keep it going and to give believers the Pastors that they can learn from to help them gain the wisdom they need to fight the good fight of Faith.
{{{Again, defending Thieme against all comers is seen as biblical, and criticizing Thieme's teachings and/or methods is seen as "tarring down anothers ministry." Critics are always seen as trying to end his ministry. There is no in between!}}}
You are the one not really listenning and still unable to tell us one of the most basic Biblical truths that exist for the new or baby Christian or GROWING Christian and that is "HOW are you Filled with the Holy Spirit of God?" Has any of your Pastors or teachers told you how it's done and have you done it?
{{{NO REFERENCE TO SCRIPTURE here or anywhere else. Thieme and his teaching is the SOURCE. You think only in terms Thieme teaches, of methods, and of mechanics, which only Thieme can teach because of his "expertise." It is as if THIEME INVENTED EXEGESIS, ISAGOGICS and all the other scholarly methods. He did not! Why receive Thieme as if he did invent all these things? Because Thieme does teach that his teaching is unique and essential, and demands dependence upon himself alone from his students. You do not go on to tell us from Scripture how to be filled with the Spirit, you just quote more Thieme jargon. Maybe you have not read all the posts which have preceded this in this lengthy thread, but if you did, you might see just how uniform all the defenders of Thieme really are in your approach and your responses to criticism.}}}
Your use of those other teachers quotes is fine but what have you learned to grow spiritually. GAP is a concept from the Word of God that works if you apply it but if you don't believe it you can't apply it you will remain ignorant to the truth and I'm referring to truth you can apply to your life i.e. wisdom. Those who can write about what Pastor Thieme taught have not benefitted because they did not believe it and there spiritual growth systems may not have been cracked up to what Thieme taught or maybe did not give the mechanics which Thieme's has and has worked for me and many others.
{{{Pure Thieme jargon! Not one quote of the Bible. And it does not even make sense.}}}
A false sence of maturity? HAHAHAHA yeah you would like to think so because this would justify your own false sence of being right about everything you claim. I really don't have to defend my spiritual growth as a result of RBT's ministry and all that I've learned, I have proof everyday that I live but that might not be enough for you and others until it's been proven by your own daily doctrinal intake and spiritual growth from RBT or another doctrinal teacher who gives mechanics. The mechanics you seem to lack wanting to express I'm referring to how you are filled with the Spirit. Again if you don't know how to be don't be ashammed to ask your teachers or other Christians. Or someone who has been taught by RBThieme.
{{{Emphases on Thieme terminology. Doctrinal teacher ref. to another "clone" of Thieme's who teaches the same things by the same methods. Emphasis on "mechanics" which the individual can "apply" in order to make the "christian life work"......so where is this in the Real Bible?}}}
Those in this Forum I'd like you to know that it works if you try it. I admit that Pastor Thieme is not perfect but his current messages can be trusted because the errors were corrected by RBT or RBT3 when they discovered them.
{{{Give us some examples. How about starting with this: LIKE IT OR NOT, YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! Thieme declares to his audience way back in the sixties or early seventies....Had plenty of time since then to 'CORRECT' this error....}}}
What more can a Pastor do. It would be great if all Pastors and ministers today would teach and prove or improve their doctrine and correct all their mistakes after spiritual growth and getting more truth, many do. Those that say you can ASK Christ to come into your heart and you will be saved need more ICE teaching. To be more accurate about salvation they need ICE teaching so they will not express that BIGGEST LIE SATAN has spread to THE WORLD.
{{{OK tell us from Scripture why this is not Biblical. Otherwise, why should we listen to you? If this is a big lie, PROVE IT from the Bible, don't just give us an assertion and some Thieme jargon thrown in like this will impress us. WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD ALL THIS DIRECT FROM THIEME. it is not new to us, we used to believe it all just like you do now. You present absolutely nothing new here or in any of your other posts so far.}}}
When you apply the principles of learning through GAP then you will discover a spiritual awakening that will help you grow into a greater undrstanding of scripture and Bible doctrines the Mystery doctrines of Christ with mechanics. As for me and my house we will serve and obey the Lord and Peter when they stated in 2 Peter 3:18 to GROW in grace and in knowledge of the LORD...
{{{"Doctrine" plus "mechanics" is not the product of the Holy Spirit! an unbeliever can learn these things and produce the same results on the outside! This is not CHRIST LIVING IN YOU. This is intellectual flesh knowledge taking the place of the person of Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit teaching you. You can get what you need to know directly from Scripture! Thieme's convincing you otherwise is one of the main reasons we call his teaching cultic. Every time you open your mouth, you prove our point without realizing it.}}}
Finding wisdom and someone to teach correctly has been the Greatest thing that has happened to me in this life other than my own soul salvation. My life proves, it to me and the all of the CREDIT goes to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father and the oly Spirit who lead me to PASTOR-teacher RB Thieme. His teachings answered all the questions I had about the Bible in the Bible for me. So TT is trying to say God lead me to a CULT and that is WRONG.
{{{No God did not lead you OR me into a cult. My gullibility and my ignorance led me there and kept me there for a long, long time. I wanted systematic teaching of the whole Word of God, and that is what I thought I was going to get from Thieme. After nearly thirty years, I finally had to step back and reevaluate the content of what I had believed for so long. I found that so much of it was not Scriptural that I finally had to leave for good.}}}
TT does not know all what he is talking about because he is just one person who can live only his own life as unto the Lord. He has not lived my life so he can not make any accurate statements about it and what anyone else who has learned under RBT's ministry some god and some bad i'm expressing the good side of the spectrum to dispute the claim in this forum that we are a CULT...NOT!!!.
{{{You failed to establish what makes a cult a cult, You chose some innocuous definitions as straw men, and said, see? It is not a cult. You left out all the other definitions and experts which have been quoted and referred to on this forum and in this thread. You never dealt with any of those. I don't think you are willing or even able to do that. And once again, you continue to prove that it IS a cult, it DOES abuse people and harm people spiritually and sometimes in other ways as well.}}}
If he and other don't like him then that is up to them I and others like his teachings with the so called flaws which have not cancelled out any of the blessings we pocess as a result of spiritual growth.and so it's upto you to decide for yourself and not listen to just one side, TT's side of the spectrum. He has discovered so called flaws in RBT's ministry that prevent HIM from learning many of the truths RBT has discovered from the diligent study of the original Greek/Hebrew and if you want to discover some truths for yourself then order the free books and DVD's and MP3's.
{{{More commercials! As if we did not know all this already. All cultists say this: If you really understood what we were saying, you would agree with us. But since you don't agree, then you must not understand, therefore, you have nothing to say about it that we will listen to. You are on the "outside" and we are on the "inside." What you and all other pro-Thiemers here fail to see is that WE HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE, and said the same things you are saying, over and over and over again! NOTHING you have said is new to us. YOU are the one who is in need of some new information! We offer you some here, but there is much, much more available out there. You would do much better to go on over to DELPHI's pro Thieme group BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP and "fellowship" with them.}}}
I have ordered 1000's of lessons all for free and without obligation for over 35 years and many of my friends as well. Hey most of my friends have never visited his Church or even seen him in person as myself so how could they be classified as a CULT?, they are just interested in truth and RBT satisfies them with his explainations from the original languages and categorical evaluations and comparing scripture with scripture after a thorough word by word exegetical analyzing of grammar and syntax.
{{{As if Thieme invented all these things and that they prove he is right and others who disagree with him are wrong! Still proves the cultic nature of his blindness. Keeps on giving the same Thieme line.}}}
When I first started listening to him I had my doubts so I bought a Greek Bible (The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with The Nestle Greek Text with Literal English Translation by Rev Alfred Marshall D. Litt from Zondervan Pub House), also The Analytical Greek Lexicon with a Grammatical Analysis of each word Zondervan Pub House ) and a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance and went to work. But then I decided that I should research a little deeper so I took a few Greek classes also learned the Greek alphebet. That satified my desire at the time and TT has stimulated my interest again in getting even deeper with the Greek again as well as the Hebrew. Thanks TT. Romans 8:28.
{{{So this makes you capable of seeing what is basically wrong with Thieme's body of work? Evidently not. You see, the "doctrine" plus "mechanics" formula does not give spiritual discernment or familiarity with the whole counsel of God keeping Scripture IN ITS CONTEXT. There is no context in Thieme's teaching, when it can take YEARS, if ever, to complete one book of the Bible! You show by your post here that you are still stuck in and limited by Thieme's "categories" thinking he is accurate in them. HE IS NOT. Give up your tapes, open your English Bible and READ IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Clear your Thieme dominated mind and stick to what Scripture actually says. Quit worshipping the "original language" idol Thieme has created for his followers. Why do you suppose God did not command His believers to learn Hebrew and Greek in order to get all the truth? IF ORIGINAL LANGUAGES were the secret to TRUTH, how is it that those ORIGINAL HEARERS went so far astray??? Oh, I know....it would be THOUSANDS OF YEARS before Thieme came upon the scene.}}}
So TT as a more accurate label to myself and others I think you should not refer to us as you call us "Thiemites" but more as " Bible Christians studying the Bible- believers" who love God's word. That would be a more accurate and fair label. Since Thiemite labels us after a person and it's the Message that we love and enjoy, and it's not the man that should get all the credit and that message is from the MIND of Christ, the man teaching the Mystery doctrines of Christ is not the issue. We all love Paul and he admonished and corrected the Corinthians for that error and the divisions. We don't call ourselves Paulites do we? We call ourselves Christians not Catholics or Chaffrites or Wallites.
{{{No but we are free to pick up our English Bibles and learn directly from them and from the Holy Spirit. You are not. You are stuck with Thieme and what he taught. Take away your tape player or other media, and where do you go then for your teaching?}}}
Sistersoap
May 08, 2008 10:15PM
PAGE 129 of this thread
FROM SISTERSOAP, My remarks below are in {{{xxx}}}:
QUOTE FROM TRUTH TESTY :
TT: Note to moderator: Most of this information would be shocking to most thiemites who have never heard it before, yet PastorThiemeisGreat2m is unremarkably silent on any new information and continues to relentlessly generalize praise for Thieme instead, just as genez and all the other thiemites. It is likely that PastorThiemeisGreat2m is one of the former thiemites on this forum and is now just trying a different approach of attack.
FROM PASTORTHIEMEISGREAT2ME TO TRUTH TESTY:
When i said "see yah" it was my intention to leave until TT kept stating things that I should address in all fairness to myself and others. He might want me to leave without commenting on those things but it would give him reason to accuse witout rebutal. Example:
WRONG again TT. I am not someone who has ever been on this site before as another person. I am bringing a different approach because I am a different person with one more testimony to dispute your claim that we are a CULT.
{{{Your comments just confirm your cultish devotion to Thieme's teachings and your INABILITY TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THIEME "CATEGORIES." Your approach is nearly word for word, and certainly thought for thought IDENTICAL TO MANY ANOTHER poster here defending Thieme. You do not even recognize that you are stuck inside the Thieme system! You continue to use Thieme terminology and can't see that you are doing that, or that that is not biblical.}}}
YOU are WRONG when you say that and so I've given my viewpoint as one more person who says you are ignorant and WRONG, ignorant of the facts of my life and how RBT has helped me emmencely in my understandiing of scripture and the other ministers as well but mainly Pastor Thieme's system of teaching. You use LS Chafer's system. And Dr Wall's system but you are wasting time that you should be using to growing spiritually and one can not build their ministry or there spiritual growth on tarring down anothers ministry. That is God's job to end a Pastors ministry or keep it going and to give believers the Pastors that they can learn from to help them gain the wisdom they need to fight the good fight of Faith.
{{{Again, defending Thieme against all comers is seen as biblical, and criticizing Thieme's teachings and/or methods is seen as "tarring down anothers ministry." Critics are always seen as trying to end his ministry. There is no in between!}}}
You are the one not really listenning and still unable to tell us one of the most basic Biblical truths that exist for the new or baby Christian or GROWING Christian and that is "HOW are you Filled with the Holy Spirit of God?" Has any of your Pastors or teachers told you how it's done and have you done it?
{{{NO REFERENCE TO SCRIPTURE here or anywhere else. Thieme and his teaching is the SOURCE. You think only in terms Thieme teaches, of methods, and of mechanics, which only Thieme can teach because of his "expertise." It is as if THIEME INVENTED EXEGESIS, ISAGOGICS and all the other scholarly methods. He did not! Why receive Thieme as if he did invent all these things? Because Thieme does teach that his teaching is unique and essential, and demands dependence upon himself alone from his students. You do not go on to tell us from Scripture how to be filled with the Spirit, you just quote more Thieme jargon. Maybe you have not read all the posts which have preceded this in this lengthy thread, but if you did, you might see just how uniform all the defenders of Thieme really are in your approach and your responses to criticism.}}}
Your use of those other teachers quotes is fine but what have you learned to grow spiritually. GAP is a concept from the Word of God that works if you apply it but if you don't believe it you can't apply it you will remain ignorant to the truth and I'm referring to truth you can apply to your life i.e. wisdom. Those who can write about what Pastor Thieme taught have not benefitted because they did not believe it and there spiritual growth systems may not have been cracked up to what Thieme taught or maybe did not give the mechanics which Thieme's has and has worked for me and many others.
{{{Pure Thieme jargon! Not one quote of the Bible. And it does not even make sense.}}}
A false sence of maturity? HAHAHAHA yeah you would like to think so because this would justify your own false sence of being right about everything you claim. I really don't have to defend my spiritual growth as a result of RBT's ministry and all that I've learned, I have proof everyday that I live but that might not be enough for you and others until it's been proven by your own daily doctrinal intake and spiritual growth from RBT or another doctrinal teacher who gives mechanics. The mechanics you seem to lack wanting to express I'm referring to how you are filled with the Spirit. Again if you don't know how to be don't be ashammed to ask your teachers or other Christians. Or someone who has been taught by RBThieme.
{{{Emphases on Thieme terminology. Doctrinal teacher ref. to another "clone" of Thieme's who teaches the same things by the same methods. Emphasis on "mechanics" which the individual can "apply" in order to make the "christian life work"......so where is this in the Real Bible?}}}
Those in this Forum I'd like you to know that it works if you try it. I admit that Pastor Thieme is not perfect but his current messages can be trusted because the errors were corrected by RBT or RBT3 when they discovered them.
{{{Give us some examples. How about starting with this: LIKE IT OR NOT, YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! Thieme declares to his audience way back in the sixties or early seventies....Had plenty of time since then to 'CORRECT' this error....}}}
What more can a Pastor do. It would be great if all Pastors and ministers today would teach and prove or improve their doctrine and correct all their mistakes after spiritual growth and getting more truth, many do. Those that say you can ASK Christ to come into your heart and you will be saved need more ICE teaching. To be more accurate about salvation they need ICE teaching so they will not express that BIGGEST LIE SATAN has spread to THE WORLD.
{{{OK tell us from Scripture why this is not Biblical. Otherwise, why should we listen to you? If this is a big lie, PROVE IT from the Bible, don't just give us an assertion and some Thieme jargon thrown in like this will impress us. WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD ALL THIS DIRECT FROM THIEME. it is not new to us, we used to believe it all just like you do now. You present absolutely nothing new here or in any of your other posts so far.}}}
When you apply the principles of learning through GAP then you will discover a spiritual awakening that will help you grow into a greater undrstanding of scripture and Bible doctrines the Mystery doctrines of Christ with mechanics. As for me and my house we will serve and obey the Lord and Peter when they stated in 2 Peter 3:18 to GROW in grace and in knowledge of the LORD...
{{{"Doctrine" plus "mechanics" is not the product of the Holy Spirit! an unbeliever can learn these things and produce the same results on the outside! This is not CHRIST LIVING IN YOU. This is intellectual flesh knowledge taking the place of the person of Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit teaching you. You can get what you need to know directly from Scripture! Thieme's convincing you otherwise is one of the main reasons we call his teaching cultic. Every time you open your mouth, you prove our point without realizing it.}}}
Finding wisdom and someone to teach correctly has been the Greatest thing that has happened to me in this life other than my own soul salvation. My life proves, it to me and the all of the CREDIT goes to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father and the oly Spirit who lead me to PASTOR-teacher RB Thieme. His teachings answered all the questions I had about the Bible in the Bible for me. So TT is trying to say God lead me to a CULT and that is WRONG.
{{{No God did not lead you OR me into a cult. My gullibility and my ignorance led me there and kept me there for a long, long time. I wanted systematic teaching of the whole Word of God, and that is what I thought I was going to get from Thieme. After nearly thirty years, I finally had to step back and reevaluate the content of what I had believed for so long. I found that so much of it was not Scriptural that I finally had to leave for good.}}}
TT does not know all what he is talking about because he is just one person who can live only his own life as unto the Lord. He has not lived my life so he can not make any accurate statements about it and what anyone else who has learned under RBT's ministry some god and some bad i'm expressing the good side of the spectrum to dispute the claim in this forum that we are a CULT...NOT!!!.
{{{You failed to establish what makes a cult a cult, You chose some innocuous definitions as straw men, and said, see? It is not a cult. You left out all the other definitions and experts which have been quoted and referred to on this forum and in this thread. You never dealt with any of those. I don't think you are willing or even able to do that. And once again, you continue to prove that it IS a cult, it DOES abuse people and harm people spiritually and sometimes in other ways as well.}}}
If he and other don't like him then that is up to them I and others like his teachings with the so called flaws which have not cancelled out any of the blessings we pocess as a result of spiritual growth.and so it's upto you to decide for yourself and not listen to just one side, TT's side of the spectrum. He has discovered so called flaws in RBT's ministry that prevent HIM from learning many of the truths RBT has discovered from the diligent study of the original Greek/Hebrew and if you want to discover some truths for yourself then order the free books and DVD's and MP3's.
{{{More commercials! As if we did not know all this already. All cultists say this: If you really understood what we were saying, you would agree with us. But since you don't agree, then you must not understand, therefore, you have nothing to say about it that we will listen to. You are on the "outside" and we are on the "inside." What you and all other pro-Thiemers here fail to see is that WE HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE, and said the same things you are saying, over and over and over again! NOTHING you have said is new to us. YOU are the one who is in need of some new information! We offer you some here, but there is much, much more available out there. You would do much better to go on over to DELPHI's pro Thieme group BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP and "fellowship" with them.}}}
I have ordered 1000's of lessons all for free and without obligation for over 35 years and many of my friends as well. Hey most of my friends have never visited his Church or even seen him in person as myself so how could they be classified as a CULT?, they are just interested in truth and RBT satisfies them with his explainations from the original languages and categorical evaluations and comparing scripture with scripture after a thorough word by word exegetical analyzing of grammar and syntax.
{{{As if Thieme invented all these things and that they prove he is right and others who disagree with him are wrong! Still proves the cultic nature of his blindness. Keeps on giving the same Thieme line.}}}
When I first started listening to him I had my doubts so I bought a Greek Bible (The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with The Nestle Greek Text with Literal English Translation by Rev Alfred Marshall D. Litt from Zondervan Pub House), also The Analytical Greek Lexicon with a Grammatical Analysis of each word Zondervan Pub House ) and a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance and went to work. But then I decided that I should research a little deeper so I took a few Greek classes also learned the Greek alphebet. That satified my desire at the time and TT has stimulated my interest again in getting even deeper with the Greek again as well as the Hebrew. Thanks TT. Romans 8:28.
{{{So this makes you capable of seeing what is basically wrong with Thieme's body of work? Evidently not. You see, the "doctrine" plus "mechanics" formula does not give spiritual discernment or familiarity with the whole counsel of God keeping Scripture IN ITS CONTEXT. There is no context in Thieme's teaching, when it can take YEARS, if ever, to complete one book of the Bible! You show by your post here that you are still stuck in and limited by Thieme's "categories" thinking he is accurate in them. HE IS NOT. Give up your tapes, open your English Bible and READ IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Clear your Thieme dominated mind and stick to what Scripture actually says. Quit worshipping the "original language" idol Thieme has created for his followers. Why do you suppose God did not command His believers to learn Hebrew and Greek in order to get all the truth? IF ORIGINAL LANGUAGES were the secret to TRUTH, how is it that those ORIGINAL HEARERS went so far astray??? Oh, I know....it would be THOUSANDS OF YEARS before Thieme came upon the scene.}}}
So TT as a more accurate label to myself and others I think you should not refer to us as you call us "Thiemites" but more as " Bible Christians studying the Bible- believers" who love God's word. That would be a more accurate and fair label. Since Thiemite labels us after a person and it's the Message that we love and enjoy, and it's not the man that should get all the credit and that message is from the MIND of Christ, the man teaching the Mystery doctrines of Christ is not the issue. We all love Paul and he admonished and corrected the Corinthians for that error and the divisions. We don't call ourselves Paulites do we? We call ourselves Christians not Catholics or Chaffrites or Wallites.
{{{No but we are free to pick up our English Bibles and learn directly from them and from the Holy Spirit. You are not. You are stuck with Thieme and what he taught. Take away your tape player or other media, and where do you go then for your teaching?}}}
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 22, 2008 12:09PM
To the Forum:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
For thiemites who just have to have the greek:
[www.zhubert.com]
[www.zhubert.com]
Thieme's flesh and blood authority was corrupt. God's authority is perfect. Submission to God's perfect authority does not corrupt. Thieme was at best a servant to you, but you probably find that shocking to hear. Thieme should have submitted to you.
Truthtesty
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
For thiemites who just have to have the greek:
[www.zhubert.com]
[www.zhubert.com]
Thieme's flesh and blood authority was corrupt. God's authority is perfect. Submission to God's perfect authority does not corrupt. Thieme was at best a servant to you, but you probably find that shocking to hear. Thieme should have submitted to you.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: June 22, 2008 12:42PM
HI TESTY, YOU SAID:
re LIFE IN THE WOMB and EEGs
Truthtesty: Hey Sis,
Who is the originator of that statement? I dare that person to show thier face here.
---->>>That just shows the public, how much of a "locked in" cult mindset they have, totally impervious <<<---
RESPONSE:
You said it. Locked in to whatever Thieme says on the tape or in the pulpit. And the same mindset is found in his clone preachers, too. One of his clone pastors who has a popular web site had a most fascinating GLOSSARY of terms, which people here would know was necessary for "newcomers" to the teaching, because you won't find the words or their definitions in the Bible or standard Bible reference works, and in the glossary if I recall correctly, for one of the terms was the statement that
"WE SHOULD NEVER SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT SOMEONE."
Now I ask you, did this man's mentor, Thieme, refrain from saying something, plenty, negative about other people?
But it sure comes in handy if the pastor is above reproach, and above investigation, or examination of what is said from the pulpit LIKE THE BIBLE BEREANS is not welcome.
LOCKED IN is what you become when you listen to Thieme and believe what he says. Like the other pro Thieme posters here I was impressed in the beginning with Thieme's "great learning" and since Thieme let few opportunities go by without reminding us how smart he was and how dumb other teachers were or how deficient they were compared to him, I was LOCKED IN too. For nearly thirty years.
This is such a common characteristic of cultic thinking that I am surprised that PastorThiemeIsGreat2Me did not mention it in his list of definitions of cult. But he picked all the sort of OK defs and ignored the others.
I don't know why Thieme picked certain topics to be so LOCKED IN on, such as life in the womb. However, this was in the beginning of the feminist movement and the abortion rights movement, and he did not like them, the feminists that is. The "bleeding heart liberals" backing the abortion rights movement he despised, but their group has used Thieme's teaching on this subject to their full advantage, in some pretty disgusting ways, too, to judge by the Internet.
YOU SAID:
(blindfold engaged - check! throttle up - check! no brakes - check! no brains - check! parrot for co-pilot - check! ready for takeoff - check! --- where she lands nobody knows) to any new evidence as long as what Thieme said (to them) is considered "abolute truth" and automatically worshiped as "absolute truth" above "obvious truth" and any new evidence.
Did they offer any evidence to differentiate between "tissue motility" and EEG brain waves? How is it that they know the difference between tissue motility of a human being diferentiated with X activity indications? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? AND "tissue motility" of a baby in the womb and/or "tissue motility" of an animal, MINUS "X activity indications"?
COMMENT: The only evidence they need or accept is what Thieme has taught or one like him who agrees with him. You can present page after page and they still won't REASON to any conclusion that differs with Thieme. I could have more respect with some of them if they would not be so lock step MINDLESS. Defenders show up here and elsewhere and parrot Thiemeology over and over again, using his jargon and showing no proofs from Scripture that they have reasoned out to a conclusion THEMSELVES. Not one has done that. Not one.
YOU SAID
How do they subtract the value of "tissue motility" from "X activity"? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? including evidence which shows that "X activity" does not occur within babies or animals?
They don't do they? It's just PRETENTIOUS ACADEMIA. ONE PRETENTIOUSLY LABLED LIPSTICK LIE after another. Psuedo Academia and psuedo science.
Because if they can prove scientifically the electronic indications of the soul either "in humans" and/or the electronic indications of the soul "not in babies or animals". I am CERTAIN that the entire scientific world - the entire Christian world AND - the whole world in ti's entirety, would be intrested in that information. NOT CONTRARY TO IT.
I would be 1st in line to see this evidence. But? I haven't seen it yet.
So thiemites bring this "new breakthrough" to the public.
Also, Thieme's verbage was "impulse in the brain". Thieme did not disclude "tissue motility" in Thieme's "impulse in the brain" description. Did these people show how "tissue motility" was different than "impulse in the brain"? I think not, but again I dare these people to present what they have to say about Thieme's toutings of "impulse in the brain", MINUS "tissue motility", on this forum.
Truthtesty
RESPONSE:
I think Thieme was ill advised by many of his "advisers" in the background. He took things he was told by so called "experts" and brought it into Bible Class without real understanding of it himself. His use of "psychology" as Bible Doctrine toward the end of his teaching life shows quite plainly that he did not know what he was talking about and in many cases, he did not even realize he was repeating himself over and over again. And devoted followers just sat there in th pews or listening to their media players at home and took it all in. The last was much worse than the first.....IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC!!!
Yes, I probably would have sat there and taken even that in, but it would have been very very hard. Thirty years of Thieme made me mindless. Just now getting it back.
Sis
re LIFE IN THE WOMB and EEGs
Truthtesty: Hey Sis,
Who is the originator of that statement? I dare that person to show thier face here.
---->>>That just shows the public, how much of a "locked in" cult mindset they have, totally impervious <<<---
RESPONSE:
You said it. Locked in to whatever Thieme says on the tape or in the pulpit. And the same mindset is found in his clone preachers, too. One of his clone pastors who has a popular web site had a most fascinating GLOSSARY of terms, which people here would know was necessary for "newcomers" to the teaching, because you won't find the words or their definitions in the Bible or standard Bible reference works, and in the glossary if I recall correctly, for one of the terms was the statement that
"WE SHOULD NEVER SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT SOMEONE."
Now I ask you, did this man's mentor, Thieme, refrain from saying something, plenty, negative about other people?
But it sure comes in handy if the pastor is above reproach, and above investigation, or examination of what is said from the pulpit LIKE THE BIBLE BEREANS is not welcome.
LOCKED IN is what you become when you listen to Thieme and believe what he says. Like the other pro Thieme posters here I was impressed in the beginning with Thieme's "great learning" and since Thieme let few opportunities go by without reminding us how smart he was and how dumb other teachers were or how deficient they were compared to him, I was LOCKED IN too. For nearly thirty years.
This is such a common characteristic of cultic thinking that I am surprised that PastorThiemeIsGreat2Me did not mention it in his list of definitions of cult. But he picked all the sort of OK defs and ignored the others.
I don't know why Thieme picked certain topics to be so LOCKED IN on, such as life in the womb. However, this was in the beginning of the feminist movement and the abortion rights movement, and he did not like them, the feminists that is. The "bleeding heart liberals" backing the abortion rights movement he despised, but their group has used Thieme's teaching on this subject to their full advantage, in some pretty disgusting ways, too, to judge by the Internet.
YOU SAID:
(blindfold engaged - check! throttle up - check! no brakes - check! no brains - check! parrot for co-pilot - check! ready for takeoff - check! --- where she lands nobody knows) to any new evidence as long as what Thieme said (to them) is considered "abolute truth" and automatically worshiped as "absolute truth" above "obvious truth" and any new evidence.
Did they offer any evidence to differentiate between "tissue motility" and EEG brain waves? How is it that they know the difference between tissue motility of a human being diferentiated with X activity indications? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? AND "tissue motility" of a baby in the womb and/or "tissue motility" of an animal, MINUS "X activity indications"?
COMMENT: The only evidence they need or accept is what Thieme has taught or one like him who agrees with him. You can present page after page and they still won't REASON to any conclusion that differs with Thieme. I could have more respect with some of them if they would not be so lock step MINDLESS. Defenders show up here and elsewhere and parrot Thiemeology over and over again, using his jargon and showing no proofs from Scripture that they have reasoned out to a conclusion THEMSELVES. Not one has done that. Not one.
YOU SAID
How do they subtract the value of "tissue motility" from "X activity"? "X activity" being equal to activity only prescribed to the electronic indications of the soul? including evidence which shows that "X activity" does not occur within babies or animals?
They don't do they? It's just PRETENTIOUS ACADEMIA. ONE PRETENTIOUSLY LABLED LIPSTICK LIE after another. Psuedo Academia and psuedo science.
Because if they can prove scientifically the electronic indications of the soul either "in humans" and/or the electronic indications of the soul "not in babies or animals". I am CERTAIN that the entire scientific world - the entire Christian world AND - the whole world in ti's entirety, would be intrested in that information. NOT CONTRARY TO IT.
I would be 1st in line to see this evidence. But? I haven't seen it yet.
So thiemites bring this "new breakthrough" to the public.
Also, Thieme's verbage was "impulse in the brain". Thieme did not disclude "tissue motility" in Thieme's "impulse in the brain" description. Did these people show how "tissue motility" was different than "impulse in the brain"? I think not, but again I dare these people to present what they have to say about Thieme's toutings of "impulse in the brain", MINUS "tissue motility", on this forum.
Truthtesty
RESPONSE:
I think Thieme was ill advised by many of his "advisers" in the background. He took things he was told by so called "experts" and brought it into Bible Class without real understanding of it himself. His use of "psychology" as Bible Doctrine toward the end of his teaching life shows quite plainly that he did not know what he was talking about and in many cases, he did not even realize he was repeating himself over and over again. And devoted followers just sat there in th pews or listening to their media players at home and took it all in. The last was much worse than the first.....IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC!!!
Yes, I probably would have sat there and taken even that in, but it would have been very very hard. Thirty years of Thieme made me mindless. Just now getting it back.
Sis
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