PSYCHOTIC ARROGANCE ARTICLE by Thieme part of my search for Thieme's assertion that IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC

Let's begin with the beginning offered by Thieme in this example of his thinking and teacing style:

HE SAYS:

Text: James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (KJV)

(Any person involved in psychopathic arrogance is a double-minded person.)

Introduction

Some might want to call what I’m going to say a “breakthrough” in an understanding of some facet of Scripture that has been heretofore forgotten or never understood. I would not be so brazen as to say that I have had a breakthrough in Scriptural understanding, but I would not hesitate to say to you that what I am about to teach you is insight that has recently been illuminated to my mind by God the Holy Spirit.

COMMENT:
First notice the huge jump from just one verse of Scripture to a whole ream of teaching which definitely cannot be found in Scripture iteslf.


This is very typical of Thieme's approach. AND here he says what he is about to teach has been ILLUMINATED to his mind by GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, making what follows AUTHORITATIVE especially in the minds of trained Thieme followers. I am not kidding.

The BREAKTHOUGHS he refers to are NEW DOCTRINES he has personally and dolely discovered in his personal Bible studies in the "original languages" which nobody else has seen before, making him the revelator of new information. THIS DOES AMOUNT TO MAKING HIS TEACHING OF BIBLE DOCTRINE as he calls it BIBLE ITSELF. It is certainly not to be challenged by followers. While I was inside, it never occurred to me to doubt or challenge ANYTHING he said.

He always stressed the importance of REACHING SPIRITUAL MATURITY because it would save us much suffering in this life, and would result in GREAT REWARDS in heaven. Without such MATURITY, we would be LOSER BELIEVERS in life and eternally.
We would likely die a miserable, horrible "sin unto death" unless we made it to his version of MATURITY.

But he kept changing the requirements and steps to MAKE IT. Adding new doctrines which must be mastered, reworking old ones to add tweaks and twists not taught before, and all were to be mastered by diligent daily study of his teaching of "Bible Doctrine."

Not doint this resulted in our crashing and burning at the end of the runway, betraying our country and our God in this life, and having a shameful identity for all eternity as LOSER BELIEVERS in HEAVEN.

And yes, his followers do believe this!


BACK TO THIEME:
Since human history and human life are about resolving a spiritual battle between God and Satan, the following statement is true:


Until an integrated, unified, cohesive personality is developed in any human being, the status quo personality of that human being must be considered abnormal.



COMMENT:
This is CLOSE to my memory of immature believers being psychotic, but not quite there. Imagine your pastor speaking from the pulpit that sentence.

THE HUMAN BEING IS ABNORMAL without aN INTEGRATED, UNIFIED, COHESIVE PERSONALITY.

What does this have to do wtiht he bible?

Where is this in Scripture?

I could understand a pastor saying that humans in general were designed originally to function in a close intimate relationship with their Creator God and without that we are all "abnormal," but this is not saying the same thing as Thieme says above.



CONTINUING WITH THIEME:
If the preceding statement is not understood, people will just play head games with themselves, considering spiritually abnormal behavior and the spiritually abnormal people associated with it, so normal, that, for them, the disintegration of a nation and its people has no spiritual explanation, and in fact, is not even a consideration.


COMMENT:
You see the connnection between understanding things his way and the welfare of the nation.


THIEME CONTINUES:
Now, I will expand the preceding statement:

Until an integrated, unified, cohesive personality is developed in any human being, the status quo personality of that human being must be considered abnormal, and that abnormal personality will manifest itself in any one of three ways: (1) normal abnormalcy, (2) neurotic abnormalcy, or (3) psychotic abnormalcy.


COMMENT:
What can one say to this, except at the very least, IT ISN'T IN THE BIBLE! And it did not come from Thieme, either, I would wager. It sounds like something he dug out of a psychology or psychaitry reference work.

One would expect a preacher to comment on the distortions of the human personality made by sin, but this is not that. Later he does give this a cursory mention, but it is so entangled in his opinions and this PSYCHOLOGIZING that the connection is alomst lost.

Besides, if one wanted to know how to be right with God, would you understand how from being told that

Until an integrated, unified, cohesive personality is developed in any human being, the status quo personality of that human being must be considered abnormal, and that abnormal personality will manifest itself in any one of three ways: (1) normal abnormalcy, (2) neurotic abnormalcy, or (3) psychotic abnormalcy.

Well, gee, that sounds awful....guess I am in worse shape than I thought.....I can't even be a simple sinner at the foot of the cross, I have to check my status quo integrated, unified, cohesive personality, and decide if I am normally abnormal, neurotically abonormal, or psychotically abnormal.......

WHAT A MESS!

To be continued....

Sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 05:51AM by sistersoap.

TO THE FORUM, continuing on THIEME'S PSYCHOTIC ARROGANCE ARTICLE re IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC

Well, folks, are you NORMALLY ABNORMAL, neurotically abnormal, or psychotically abnormal? It isn't a joke! He is serious. Just what does NORMALLY ABNORMAL MEAN, anyway?


One thing Thieme said and ASSUMED was this:
Since human history and human life are about resolving a spiritual battle between God and Satan, the following statement is true:

Then he proceeds with his "illuminated" content re UNIFIED, INTEGRATED, COHESIVE PERSONALITY being the Normal Person, apparently the Believer in Christ.

WELL, did he not assume the premise, then move forward from there without a single reason for us to believe that HUMAN HISTORY is about resolving the spiritual battle between God and Satan???


NEXT THE ARTICLE CONTINUES:
Since we are using the word abnormalcy, we must also acknowledge the word normalcy.

Normalcy defined and described: Normalcy is the condition in life that God demands of every human being. The demand is found in such verses as 1 Peter 1:16 and Matthew 5:48.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (KJV)

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV)

Normalcy in life is godliness, holiness, the condition to be manifested in every life in every life situation, through the moment-by-moment function of the integrated, unified, cohesive personality, which personality is developed only in the human being who has been saved; is confessed up to date; is consistently and correctly applying the principles, promises, doctrines, and techniques associated with the unique Church Age; is yielded to God the Holy Spirit so as to be the recipient of His seven manifestations, manifested only within the life of a yielded believer; and walking by means of the Spirit. The function of the five preceding factors in anyone’s life results in an integrated, unified, cohesive personality, and anything less than the function of these five factors produces an abnormal personality.

Look at the mechanics of (how to develop) the integrated, unified, cohesive personality again:

0saved
1confessed up to date
2consistently and correctly applying the principles, promises, doctrines, and techniques associated with the unique Church Age
3yielded to God the Holy Spirit so as to be the recipient of His seven manifestations, manifested only within the life of a yielded believer
4walking by means of the Spirit

COMMENT:
So the measuring rod for believers is not JESUS CHRIST, or walking by the Spirit, or even the Word of God, but this list.

But this is the PERSON DOING these things: confess, CONSISTENTLY and CORRECTLY APPLYING principles, promises, doctrines, techniques, YEILDED and so on.

This makes the Christian life a LIST OF THINGS TO DO. Not a life to be lived. This puts the person in charge of the process, and in my opinion it is FLESH, and constitutes a unique LAW type of addition to grace, which INVALIDATES GRACE. Where is the grace is making sure each hour of each day you are fulfilling the list, among the many others Thieme has come up with?

This is just the most up to the minute version of the "Christian way of life" for Thieme followers. Who knows what would be next?

One must be constantly checking up on ones self to see if you meet this lists' requirements to SUCCEED or to GROW TO MATURITY at least by what is give here. But it is much more complicated than just this list; any time Thieme comes up with a new "breakthrough" or "illuminated" thought, that too is added to the requirements for maturity, or another LEVEL OF MATURITY is added to the goal. It never ends. There is no final revelation one can point to and say, I HAE GOD'S COMPLETE WORD HERE.
To be continued...

~ Sistersoap

CONTINUING THIEME'A ARTICLE ON PSYCHOPATIHIC ARROGANCE,
topic IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC

QUOTE:
Normalcy[[/b] is the condition of the function of the normal spiritual life. Since there are three stages of development in the Christian life, namely, babyhood, adolescence, and maturity, normalcy is only experienced by the babe and adolescent on those occasions when they are meeting the following criteria: they are

{{{The list. ~ Sistrsoap}}}

confessed up to date; they are correctly applying the principles, promises, doctrines, and techniques associated with the unique Church Age; they are yielded to God the Holy Spirit so as to be the recipient of His seven manifestations, manifested only within the life of a yielded believer; and they are walking by means of the Spirit.


COMMENT:
So now we learn that all three stages of spritual maturity are the same only the consistency with which these criteria are met make the difference. Having been in the Thieme system, I can testify personally to the manner in which this type teaching demands that one look constantly inward at ones' self to see how one is progressing. The critical importance of the damand to MAKE IT to MATURITY, whatever the latest version of it happens to be at the moment, makes one compulsively involved in measuring ones' self compared with the perceived progress of others. This produces anxiety and depression, and eventually hopelessness, if one is of a depressive turn of mind, and perfectionistic since one can never be perfect in this pursuit. If one is self satisfied you will breeze through these "stages" quickly because after all you are talented, smart and so on, and that is my point. These are not SPIRITUAL BIBLICAL instructions! They are psychological/management PRINCIPLES not A RELATIONSHIP with the Living God. This is not the SIMPLICIY which is in Christ as the Apostle Paul taught. This is a mixture of man's opinions and some Bible things thrown in together and presented as the "illuminated" thoughts of a man who says he is teaching "bible Doctrine."

You will not find such lists as you see here in the Epistles of the New Testament. Nowhere does the apostle Paul, for instance, give "principles and mechanics" to be performed LIFE COMES FROM LIFE, not from adhering to lists of things to do and "mechanics" to use to reach a goal.


THIEME CONTINUES:
The difference between the babe, the adolescent, and the mature believer is the consistency with which the criteria are being applied. Increased consistency is determined by volition and the applications of pertinent metabolized doctrine--you cannot apply what you do not know. The mature believer knows more and is applying more than the adolescent and the babe, and the adolescent knows more and is applying more than the babe.

Normalcy is the constant condition and manifestation of spiritual maturity in a Church Age believer’s life.

COMMENT:
So here we have the statement of what it is to be NORMAL and MATURE, BUT it is just more and more of the same, more consistently applied.

And in view of Thieme's other teachings, what kind and degree of maturity are we talking about here? Is this Super Grace? Ultra Super Grace? Dare I posit an ULTRASUPER DUPER GRACE? The follower constantly wonders if he is one of the 100 MATURE believers in this country at this time? {Time of writing.}
There is always that underlying anxiety in the back of one's mind. Am I going to make it? Will I suffer the sufferiung and loss of the normally abnormal believer or even the abnormally psychotic believer?

Try sharing these thoughts with a shrink some time......

To be continued.....

~ Sistersoap

TO THE FORUM,
THIEME'S ARTICLE ON GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE
CONTINUED:

I left off with THIEME SAYING:
Normalcy is the constant condition and manifestation of spiritual maturity in a Church Age believer’s life.

COMMENT: The conclusion is inevitable that NORMAL is being SPIRITUALY MATURE. This demand is paramount in Thieme's system, and he has repeated it throughout his years of teaching in different ways through his many "BREAKTHROUGHS" DESPITE his disclaimer at the beginning of this article to the contrary.

By this point in his ministry, his faithful followers have become thoroughly accepting of his authority, his truthfulness, and the assumption that everything he teaches from the pulpit (or on tapes or other media) is BIBLE DOCTRINE. TtHE OUTSIDER NEEDS TO KEEP THIS IN MIND if he wants to understand the compultions of the insider. NORMAL IS WHATEVER THIEME SAYS IT IS and SPIRITUAL MATURITY IS ALSO WHATEVER THIEME SAYS IT IS and is subject to revision at any time by Thieme.


CONTINUING THE THIEME ARTICLE:
Normalcy is the constant condition and manifestation of spiritual maturity in a Church Age believer’s life. {{{already quoted. ~ sistersoap}}}

It is also important to understand the following definitions:

Abnormalcy defined: Abnormalcy is any thought, speech, or overt activity conducted under the influence of the old-sin-nature, with or without cognizance of doing so.

* Cope defined: The ability to deal effectively with and handle the stresses to which one is subjected.

Note: This is a cosmic (worldly) definition implying that stress is inevitable, and that there are worldly solutions to effectively handle stress. This definition would acknowledge that there may be such a thing as “Christian coping skills,” but would not limit coping skills as being solely Christian in nature. The issue would go like this: “Are you handling your stress, and if you are, who cares what measures you take, Christian or non-Christian, just as long as you are effectively coping?” This is human viewpoint at its best and must be rejected from a spiritual point of view.


COMMENT: Why waste our time with non Christian non biblical discussions such as this AS A PART OF HIS ILLUMINIATED BIBLE TEACHING CLASS? What HE gives us is also not substantiated in Scripture.


QUOTE CONTINUED:
* Coping defined: A measure of an individual’s resourcefulness and ability to deal with the stress of daily life and unusual challenges posed by chronic disease, disability, and pain.

Note: This also is a cosmic (worldly) definition implying that stress is inevitable. It also generalizes an individual’s resourcefulness, implying that the nature of that resource is unimportant just as long as it provides the ability to deal with the stress of daily life and unusual challenges posed by chronic disease, disability, and pain. This is human viewpoint and must be rejected from a spiritual point of view.

* Definitions taken from Taber’s Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary, 1989



Consider my descriptions associated with the word “abnormalcy.”

Normal abnormalcy: The first level of mental disorder that the world calls “coping.”

Neurotic abnormalcy: The second level of mental disorder when coping skills begin to fail.

Psychotic abnormalcy: The third level of mental disorder when coping skills completely fail.


COMMENT:
Here is where we come close to the issue that began this series of posts. IF NORMALCY in the believer raises one out of the realm of these degrees of ABNORMALCY, then the IMMATURE (abnormal in one degree or another) BELIEVER IS ABNORMAL, and it can be also said the IMMATURE BELIEVER IS PSYCHOTIC, if he is low on the list of Thieme's requirements for NORMALCY or MATURITY.

This is not quite saying dogmatically that THE IMMATURE BELIEVER IS PSYCHOTIC but it is getting there! I am still looking for my source for that particular exact quote.

It is also said here that STRESS in the life is a sign that you are NOT MAKING IT as a Thieme brand Christian.

At the very least, a Christian may be excused for coming to this conslusion!


ARTICLE CONTINUES WITH:
The following are capacities of cosmic coping skills associated with the stresses of life:

None: “basket case”--psychotic abnormalcy
Some: neurotic abnormalcy
Complete: normal abnormalcy

The totally integrated, unified, cohesive personality manifests the character of Christ through the application of the appropriate fruits of the Spirit in any given life situation.


COMMENT: Here we have the organizational imperative of a person who is compelled to construct an intricate diagram of the Christian life and to SYSTEMATIZE THE PERSONALITY OF THE CHRISTIAN into a MECHANICAL PROCESS of "applying the appropriate fruits of the Spirit" and so on.

JUST IMAGINE THE THOUGHT PROCESS FOR A MOMENT:
What does this sound like in the mind of the sincere Thieme follower?

First, he assumes that ALL THIS IS BIBLE DOCTRINE, therefore, all this is from God.

Second, he must learn, remember, and apply THIS SYSTEM to SOMEDAY BECOME NORMAL as a human being and as a Christian.

Third, he knows he starts out in a hole. He experiences stresses in his life, and when he does, he is immediately confronted with so many many choices. He has to evaluate the degree of his COPING SKILLS and to determine, IS THIS FROM CHRIST, OR MY OLD SIN NATURE? Am I COPING SPIRITUALLY or COPING HUMAN VIEWPOINT?

Fourth, it takes ENORMOUS ENERGY to maintain this level of SELF EXAMINATION going all the time! Comparing what the Colonel said, with what is going on in his life NOW, at all times, day and night.

Fifth, he cannot explain his dilemmas to outsiders! They would have to go through all the tapes and books of Thieme's in order to really understand where this poor soul is "coming from."

Sixth, HE CANNOT POINT TO ANY OF THIS DIRECTLY IN THE BIBLE, so he can't share this clearly with other Non Thieme brand Christians. And Thieme has trained him to look down on outsiders since they don't have the truth as Thieme teaches it, which is superior to all other teachers who are not Thieme trained.

Seventh, he MUST get that DAILY TAPE or other Thieme lesson media in lest he lose his train of thought, and fail to maintain his momentum toward some day BECOMING NORMAL, MATURE CHRISTIAN.


NO WONDER this system EXHAUSTS PEOPLE and can DRIVE THEM TO DISTRACTION.


to be continued....

Sistersoap

THIEME'S ARTICLE CONTINUED:
GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

There are two basic reasons why any person will fail to manifest an integrated, unified, cohesive personality: (1) ignorance of the mechanics (how to) of producing an integrated, unified, cohesive personality; and (2) willful disobedience manifested by knowing the particular fruit of the Spirit that needs to be applied, but choosing not to make that application.


COMMENT:
So we have NO SCRIPTURE to support this process. The LIFE of Christ is reduced to MECHANICS and whether or not the Christian will choose to APPLY FRUIT. How does one APPLY FRUIT? In the bible it is a result of GROWTH in the vine, not choosing to 'APPLY" this or that quality, and they go together! It is not that God gives you, or you develop these qualities by learning and applying "doctrine", that is something that YOU DO OR DON'T DO. Again, this is a Thieme conception: MECHANICS and knowing how to 'APPLY" is a man centered action. It is another thing entirely to submit to the righteousness of God and to allow HIM TO GROW THE LIFE OF CHRIST IN YOU GIVEN YOU FREELY! There is no mechanic involved. Yet Thieme goes to infinite pains to explain MECHANICS to EVERYTHING including here where there is no such MECHANIC given in the Bible. He says he finds these things in the "original languages" but I challenge any non Thieme "expert" to find these 'mechanics" in the Greek. They certainly are not there in the English of any translation! Did all the translators miss so very much through all these years? How did the Church, the Body of Christ manage to arrive in the twentieth century without any of this supposedly vital information?


Thieme would probably say NOBODY MADE IT TO MATURITY until he came along.

How did the world manage without him?


THIEME CONTINUES:
What is the mechanic (how to) of applying a particular fruit of the Spirit to a life situation? (See Changing Clothes in the spiritual life series).

How many abnormal people do you think there are in life?

Spiritual Christians understand the following principle of life:

Principle: Adversity that is inevitable and that stress is optional.


COMMENT:
A MAXIM MADE UP BY THIEME is not BIBLE.


THIEME:
Spiritual Christians use the eleven problem solving devices as the FLOT line (Forward Line Of Troops) that are resident in their soul’s stream of consciousness to handle all adversity, so as to keep stress from ever entering their souls. Coping is a human viewpoint term and a human viewpoint function that should be eliminated from Christian vocabulary and Christian function.


COMMENT: So the natural conclusion to the person in the pew listening to this "Bible Doctrine" is that if I have stress in my life, I am failing to apply the eleven problem solving devices properly and I am a failure as a Christian. Therefore, I must be ABNORMAL, and not mature.

The eleven problem solving devices is another Thieme invention of various MECHANICS he says the Bible teaches on how to deal with life's problems, all of which require learning and applying (correctly) them to daily life. This is a HUMAN INVENTION PROCESS akin to MANAGEMENT COURSES in business schools! The investment of time and energy to find those 11 devices, remember and use them all without solid Scriptural proof is enormous. If one just reads the English with care and attention, prayerfully asking God to teach you truth, consulting reference sources when needed, one can come to an intelligent and useful knowledge of what God has FREELY REVEALED TO US in His Word. It is not that hard! You don't have to jump through the zillions of hoops Thieme invents. Using his own invented terminology is a source of confusion and a big time waster. How much better to use BIBLE TERMS for BIBLE CONCEPTS. Otherwise, you can't think outside the "Thieme box."


NEXT, THIEME CONTINUES:
The ninefold fruit of the Spirit characterized the integrated, unified, cohesive personality of the humanity of Jesus Christ. The ninefold fruit of the Spirit is found in Galatians 5:22-23 (NAS).

love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control


COMMENT: So having the fruit of the Spirit constitutes the INTEGRATED, UNIFIED, COHESIVE PERSONALITY in JESUS CHRIST.

So Jesus at least was 'NORMAL." He was a MATURE human being spiritually speaking.

But wait! Who invented the description of "integraged, unified, cohesive personality" to begin with? Why don't we see it in the BIBLE? This is supposed to be "Bible Doctrine" isn't it? This was ILLUMINATED to Thieme's mind, as he said it was in the first paragraph of this article.

If it did not come from the Bible, where DID it come from?

To be continued.....

Sistersoap

CONTINUING THIEME'S ARTICLE ON
GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

Consider the following definitions:

Integrated: The bringing together of the various parts or functions so that the various parts function as a harmonious whole. Application: These characteristics should not be viewed as independent contractors. They WORK as a team.

Unified: to make into a unit; cause to become one; unite. Application: They COME TOGETHER as a team.

Cohesive: sticking together. Application: They are BOUND TOGETHER as a team.

love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control

COMMENT:
Thieme has used three different words UNIFIED, INTEGRATED, COHESIVE to mean the same exact thing. He affirms that the FRUITS of the Spirit COME TOGETHER, but then he asserts in the body of this article that these FRUITS can be obtained then selected, applied and benefitted from INDIVIDUALLY AS NEEDED. And that this process is ACCOMPLISHED not by the filling of the Spirit, or the life of Christ in the believer but by THE LEARNING AND APPLYING OF HIS TEACHING OF "BIBLE DOCTRINE." Now if that is so, he ought to be able to INDICATE THIS IN THE SCRIPTURES. iT surely ought not to be a "sacred secret" revealed only to those like him who have the skills in Greek to perceive it in his "illuminated mind" and give it to the rest of the Body of Christ.

Again, his mechanistic portrayal of METHOD over LIFE sets the believer up for FAILURE. Don't drop the doctrinal ball, believer! You must learn, remember and correctly apply this teaching in order to have the fruits of the Spirit in your life. SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE where this is so, and where this statement of mechanics is justified in Scripture, IN ENGLISH, please.

If this was unavailable to believers before THIEME, then God was not fair to those who lived and died in faith before Berachah opened its Thieme ministry. If it WAS available before then, then why is Thieme so exclusively RIGHT in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers, of whch I was one?

If this truth is freely available to any earnest believer willing to read and believe the Word of God, then why are we wasting so much time with all this non biblical stuff?



QUOTING THIEME:
When the ninefold fruit of the Spirit are in the believer’s spiritual clothes closet, having been placed there through the metabolization of doctrine, the end result is an integrated, unified, cohesive personality that manifests a Christ-like personality in the life of the believer.



COMMENT: "In the believer's spiritual clothes closet, having been placed there through THE METABOLIZATION of doctrine".....

Since this is so important, don't you think God would say what this means, exactly, METABOLIZATION OF DOCTRINE."?

This is part of the system Thieme has created. The phrases and terms he uses supposedly make things "clearer" but instead they really cloud the mind with non Biblicaland sometimes ANTI Biblical ideas.

Scritpure explains Secripture!
Adding to it is forbidden.
Thieme adds to Scripture.
This is just one example among many.

To be continued....

Sistersoap

THIEME'S ARTICLE
GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

CONTINUED:

Body of Text

There is one other important note that should be considered before beginning the body of this document:

Distinguish between organic disease (SDB)* that leads to neurotic and psychotic mental disorders and mental disorders whose source is the locked-in arrogance (SDB) associated with cosmic one, gate #1, which I will refer to as locked-in motivational arrogance that results in normal abnormalcy, neurotic abnormalcy or psychotic abnormalcy.

* (SDB) found throughout this document means “see the definition(s) below,” listed at the bottom of this document. The italicized words will be defined.

This document focuses on those mental disorders that are the product of locked-in motivational arrogance rather than focusing on mental disorders that are the product of organic disease.


COMMENT: So according to this, non organic mental disease resulting in normal abnormalcy, neurotic abnormalcy, and psychotic abnormalcy for the believer is LOCKED IN MOTIVATIONAL ARROGANCE, and apparently applies to all until MATURITY IS REACHED. This would be a logical conclusion in light of what Thieme has already said in this document.

So this is not far from my original inquiry into the statement attributed to Thieme that IMMATURE BELIEVERS ARE PSYCHOTIC.


THIEME CONTINUES:
Body of Text
1. Psychopathic (SDB) arrogance is a volitional drive toward unreality.

2. Under normal conditions, the emotions of the soul are under the control and domination of the mentality of the soul.

3. Normally, a person’s emotions blend with his mentality so that his emotional life does not disrupt his ability to think rationally.

A. The emotions are designed to respond to the content of information contained in the soul’s right lobe (SDB).

B. Emotion has no ability to think, no ability to rationalize, and is not related to any field of cognizance.

C. By divine design, emotion is a responder, not an aggressor.


COMMENT: So far, so good. These statements have been made or implied by other Christian ministries I have come across not related to Thieme. BUT note there is still no Scripture accompanying these generalizations, and this makes them untested ASSUMPTIONS.


THIEME CONTINUES:
4. In the psychopathic person, the normal subordination of emotion to mentality is not present because of cultivated arrogance associated with cosmic involvement and its resultant drive toward unreality.


COMMENT: Translation, please?
definition of COSMIC from:
[www.bibledoctrinechurch.org]

Quote:
COSMIC ONE - Consists of grieving the Spirit. In Cosmic one the believer becomes involved with sin or preoccupation with self causing the believer to sin hence exit the pre-designed plan of God (PPOG). Once in cosmic one the believer only need rebound (1Jo 1:9) to get back in fellowship with God!

COSMIC TWO - Consists of quenching the Spirit. This is man's exit from the pre-designed plan of God by way of antagonism toward God and the plan of God. Cosmic two entails more than sin per se in that it moves into evil. Evil is more than sin, it is a system of thought based on disputes, rejection and contradiction to the Word of God. Evil attempts to frustrate the grace policy of God. This "human" viewpoint takes more than mere rebound to re-enter fellowship with God, it requires recovery as well! recovery being the cleansing of the mind through consistent inculcation of the accurate teaching of the Word of God!

COSMIC SYSTEM - Involves both cosmic one and cosmic two entails the over all objective of Satan in using mankind to prove his superiority over God. The cosmic system is the devil's multifaceted policy for achieving his goal by way of human viewpoint projected through the world system.
end quote

These definitions are second nature to the trained Thieme follower. They say or strongly imply that the believer who sins bounces in and out of "fellowship" with God. Some sins are so bad, or motivated in antagonism to "truth" that more than simple confession is involved in 'getting back in fellowship." RECOVERY is involved. This is tantamount to REJECTING WHAT THIEME HAS TAUGHT and requires FURTHER TRAINING IN HIS SYSTEM to RECOVER. This is getting into the area of EVIL rather than simple sinning. Evil is OPPOSING THE TEACHING in this system. This teaching is EQUIVALENT TO THE WORD OF GOD.

So this cascade of the believer through the levels of sin into evil begin with ARROGANCE as described in this article. We have already seen the NORMAL ABNORMALCY, NEUROTIC ABNORMALCY, and PSYCHOTIC ABNORMALCY mentioned in the beginning. Thieme takes Scriptures, a few of them, mixes the concepts therein with notions of man regarding sanity and insanity, and comes up with this RUBE GOLDBERG system of DOCTRINE which in his teaching is EQUIVALENT TO BIBLE TEACHING, as he calls it BIBLE DOCTRINE. The Thieme follower is required to believe and apply all this in his life, and if he rejects it for any reason, he is under DIVINE DISCIPLINE FROM GOD for so doing.

Is this Biblical? Well, just look for this in YOUR ENGLISH BIBLE and judge for yourself.


QUOTING THIEME:
5. The psychopathic believer lacks the ability to realistically evaluate the object of his emotional responses or reactions.

A. Arrogant preoccupation with self excludes reality and leads a drive toward a false object.

1) For example, a psychopathic woman may fall in love with a male in her periphery, making him the object of her hallucinations (SDB) and fantasies (SDB).

2) Pursuing this pseudo-love with arrogant fanaticism, the arrogant psychopath loses all objectivity, reasoning power, and moral stability.

3) This means that the psychopathic believer under the influence of the cosmic system pursues a false object with irrationality, unpredictability, and abnormal behavior.


COMMENT: Interesting he would choose this example of a woman falling in love with a "male" in her periphery....


BACK TO THIEME:
B. Psychopathic arrogance has no capacity for true love.

C. Because of an incapacity for true love, the psychopathic believer becomes occupied with some form of self-gratification which interrelates with the other cosmic one gates, including sexual arrogance.

6. Locked-in arrogance in the psychopathic personality results in several categories of psychopathic personalities:

alcoholic psychosis organic psychosis
depressive psychosis polyneuritic psychosis
drug psychosis post-infectious psychosis
exhaustion psychosis postpartum psychosis
functional psychosis senile psychosis
gestational psychosis situational psychosis
involutional psychosis toxic psychosis
Korsakoff’s psychosis traumatic psychosis
manic-depressive psychosis


COMMENT: This is a sweeping statement that LOCKED IN ARROGANCE causes SENILE or FUNCTIONAL psychosis, when he already said that he would not be covering ORGANIC CAUSES OF PSYCHOSIS. Senile mental disability is an ORGANIC disease not an ARROGANCE CAUSED illness, as he and his family should know now, since he himself SUFFERS FROM ALZHEIMERS disease, having nothing to do with one's emotions and attitudes as a cause! Does this man know what he is talking about? Or was his Alzheimer's beginning its damage to his brain when he wrote this?

I believe some other of the listed mental disease/disorders listed here are ORGANIC in cause as well. Methinks the author is out of his depth.




To be continued...

sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 03:58AM by sistersoap.

CONTINUING THIEME ARTICLE
GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

7. Considering the psychopathic personality, particularly, the manic-depressive (SDB) personality:

A. Arrogance as a catalyst in manic-depressive psychosis is obvious.


COMMENT:
How so? Where is this proven or even cited in works of those qualified to comment? This is typical of THIEME'S DICTA which NO ONE following him questions! His interest in the subject in light of his Mom's mental illness can be naturally accepted, but this does not make him an expert in the field, though he apparently thinks he is.


BACK TO THIEME:

B. In the manic phase, the believer may be very self-righteous, very self-satisfied, and even arrogantly aggressive.

1) He may be childish, proud, intolerant of criticism, irrepressible, uninhibited, effusive, and often unconventional in speech and manner.

COMMENT:
Unconventionality of a kind is encouraged by Thieme's ministry in that he constantly criticizes those who disagree with him or his teaching.


OOPS, STORM COMING,,,, HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK!

sISTERSOAP

BACK TO THIEME'S ARTICLE ON GATE 9: PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE

B. In the manic phase, the believer may be very self-righteous, very self-satisfied, and even arrogantly aggressive.

1) He may be childish, proud, intolerant of criticism, irrepressible, uninhibited, effusive, and often unconventional in speech and manner.

2) Such a person may court the limelight as boastful, flippant, argumentative, with wandering thought patterns, be easily bored, lacking the ability to sustain anything, and never having an enthusiasm sustained for very long.


COMMENT: Those of you out there may notice the similarity to characteristics of NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY to these character traits listed under this portion of Thieme's descriptions of the "manic" phase of "manic-depression" psychosis. If you do, I invite you to speak up now or later about this. He rattles off stuff with no reference to any source. Is this coming from his head? Why should this take up so much time in a BIBLE CLASS?

I have some ideas on that, and I can't prove them. but since he allows himself much freedom in expressing HIS OPINIONS I will express mine here: I suspect that this level of detail and all these intricate descriptions really come in handy when it comes to what he calls "NEGATIVE BELIEVERS," negative that is, to something he has taught, and who therefore become sources of irritation, or who speak out against something he has said. They then become MANIC DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOTICS and their comments and complaints can be safely IGNORED and their concerns sidelined. It becomes a method of STOPPING THOUGHT. One can even stop oneself from even considering anything might be wrong. That thought never entered my mind for most of the years I spent in the Thieme "doctrinal" camp.

My own experience in years of taper groups tells me that few would speak up, but the ones who do regret it. Most who become "trouble makers" by disagreeing with something Thieme has taught just quiety leave and never come back. They take with them loads of problems which may not be dealt with for many years.


BACK TO THIEME:
B. Arrogance in the manic phase may be characterized by hostility toward members of one's own family, combining arrogance with unreasonable and unprovoked anger.

1) Oscillation of emotions is very common.

2) In the middle of exuberance, the person may suddenly burst into tears.

C. The manic may be self-righteous, officious, and meddlesome.

D. Hallucinations in manic excitement are usually arrogant illusions (SDB) as the manic builds himself up in order to interfere and straighten out everyone.

E. Therefore, the manic depressive believer is characterized by alternating mania and mental depression (SDB).

F. He goes from being depressed to being very excited and self-righteous.


COMMENT:
wE CAN SEE A recurring theme in these descriptions, and I suspect it will crop up again and again. It is the theme of the "interfering" person who "meddles" in the affairs of other people. Such a person who feels it is his responsibility according to the Bible to assist a brother caught in a sin might be called in Thieme's system a manic depressive or other form of psychotic if they insist on behaving wrongly by NOTICING another's sins, and approaching them about it. As one person who was a devoted Berachah Church attendee said, "If the Colonel told us to build a whore house in the parking lot, we would do it." That sounds very consistent with the Thieme I knew. Thieme called this the PRIVACY OF THE PRIESTHOOD and we were not even supposed to notice immorality or sin of any kind going on right under our noses. In one clone church I know of, a PRACTICING PEDOPHILE was not even reported to the police, much less thrown out of the congregation, because of THE PRIVACY OF THE PRIESTHOOD and the "fact" that he had REBOUNDED, that is he supposedly confessed his sins to God according to 1 John 1:9. Now that is CRAZY! Illegal, too.


THIEME CONTINUES:
G. In the mild depressive state, the manic may have physical complaints that have no organic basis.

1) This may be followed by a lack of confidence or a lack of a sense of destiny; instead, he has a sense of inadequacy and is unable to stay with a job.


COMMENT:
SENSE OF DESTINY is a Theime JARGON term he made up as Bible Doctrine. The mature Christian has a "personal sense of destiny" and this is BIBLE DOCTRINE. BUT we are never told exactly what this means, or how to "get it." To insert this into a list of PSYCHOLOGICAL DESCRIPTIONS OF A MANIC DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOTIC tells me this whole list is suspect. but his followers just sit there and "take it all in" from his puplit and pen, not questioning the source. He refers to SDB, which means SEE DEFINITION BELOW, and I have skimmed over the definitions. None of them are referenced to any outside authority or source, they apparently come from his own head.

AND YET he rejects any PASTORAL COUNSELING TASKS as being inappropriate for the "doctrinal" pastor-teacher. It is certainly convenient for some pastors to not have to help any of his congregation with their problems, especially if his teaching is causing any distortions in their lives. Counseling is one way a pastor can judge how what he is saying in his ministry is being understood or misunderstood or misapplied. The Thieme model of pastoring and teaching eliminates this function entirely.


THIEME AGAIN:

2) Above all, he is unable to realize that God has a plan for his life, and that he is alive by logistical grace so God's plan can be fulfilled in his life.


COMMENT:
More Thieme jargon. LOGISTICAL GRACE as a teaching always gave me chills. It stated that God supplied your bare minimum needs: food, water, clothing and shelter, to keep you alive on planet Earth. The purpose was to keep you alive SO YOU COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIEME'S TEACHING OF BIBLE DOCTRINE and grow, and "earn" more blessings from God. Thus, the immature child believer always got the LEAST PROVISION AND PROTECTION, and it seems to me that that is wrong! The immature believer (similar to a child) NEEDS MORE protection and blessing, and often does not realize when God is protecting and blessing him. Since I gave up any hope of actually making it to "maturity" I felt rejected by God and had no hope of being a "mature" believer, and would never see all those fabulous blessings Thieme kept dangling in front of me to keep me going in the system.

PERHAPS what Thieme referred to was that as a believer grows in his Christian life, he receives MORE AND MORE GRACE as his function in the Body of Christ matures. BUT Paul the Apostle says that we are COMPLETE IN CHRIST and IN HIM WE HAVE ALL THINGS PERTAINING TO LIFE ANDF GODLINESS.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Does that sound like the minimum given to the baby believer? It does not sound like that to me!



THIEME CONTINUES:
H. In his depressed state, there may be a desire for violence and crime.

When a homicide is committed by a manic-depressive Christian, the victim is often a member of his own family.

I. This person may seek to take his own life, so that suicide becomes the ultimate arrogance.

8. Psychopathy is a general (non-specific) term for mental disturbances or mental disorders. (SDB)


COMMENT:

Watch this! Psychopathy is a general term for mental disturbance.....



THIEME:
A. However, psychopathy is also used specifically (not generally) for certain mental disorders characterized by emotional instability, perversity of conduct, undue conceit, suspiciousness, lack of self-control, lack of social feeling, lack of truthfulness, lack of common sense, and lack of persistence.


COMMENT:
"Lack of common sense" a sign of psychopathy? How scientific is that?


THIEME:
Note: Let’s be clear here. The following are considered mental disorders:

COMMENT:
Source?

THIEME:
emotional instability considered a mental disorder
perversity of conduct considered a mental disorder
undue conceit considered a mental disorder
suspiciousness considered a mental disorder
lack of self-control considered a mental disorder
lack of social feeling considered a mental disorder
lack of truthfulness considered a mental disorder
lack of common sense considered a mental disorder
lack of persistence considered a mental disorder

COMMENT: This sounds like a description of TWO OR THREE YEAR OLD CHILD! See what I mean?

Taken individually these characteristics may be NORMAL for immature children. Not psychopathic. Not a mental disorder. BUT in the Thieme system, trained as we were, one EASILY TOOK ALL THESE JUDGMENTS AND DESCRIPTIONS to one's self and this list or many others were available to beat ourselves up with.....If I was emtionally unstable, it was NOT THIEME'S FAULT, or the fault of the TEACHING, I was suffering from a MENTAL DISORDER. "undue' conceit? how much is UNDUE CONCEIT? I don't think Thieme lacked in that department. SUSPICIOUSNESS? Thieme saw commies everywhere. Granted, they WERE in many places, and still are. But this is coming across FROM THE LIPS AND PEN OF AN AUTHORITATIVE BIBLE TEACHER whose every word is BIBLE DOCTRINE. That is the difference between someone spouting personal opinions and someone saying this is FROM GOD and God will punish you if you don't accept it. Since I said it, it is BIBLE DOCTRINE. Remember how he began this entire article? Go back and reread it. It should be giving you chills now. The average Thieme devotee would see NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS ENTIRE ARTICLE.

I know I would not have. Until now.

To be continued...

Sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 09:56AM by sistersoap.

GATE 9 PSYCHOPATHIC ARROGANCE article by THIEME continued:

My Note: Isn’t it amazing that the cosmos (world) is calling these symptoms mental disorders.


COMMENT:
From the way the foregoing is written, it sounds as if THIEME IS CALLING THESE "symptoms" MENTAL DISORDERS....and I believe any ordinary reader could be excused for thinking that, even someone totally unfamiliar with Thieme and his teaching. It sure sounds like he is saying that. He does not QUOTE ANY SOURCES, THAT I RECALL nor do I see them in the DEFINITIONS BELOW. CALL THIS TO MY ATTENTION if I missed anything in the way of an attribution to source outside of Thieme. I recall the quote from the MERCK MANUAL, of which I have one somewhere here at home, but can't lay my hands on it at the moment.



THIEME CONTINUES:
They are mental disorders because they characterize a spiritually fragmented personality. Any one of the above is inconsistent with an integrated, unified, cohesive personality.


COMMENT:
Oh my! Now we are back to the "integrated, unified, cohesive personality" which was a SECULAR definition if I remember correctly, but here he says this is a SPIRITUAL PROBLEM. Which is it Doc? Er, PASTOR?

Oh, I forgot. We can't ask. He won't tell. We are not supposed to notice the lack of source material. Nor are we to question this ILLUMINATED MIND and its brilliant concepts that help make the BIBLE CLEARER.....



BACK TO THIEME:
Any one of the above is a manifestation of the “double minded man” in James 1:8. It should also be clear that these mental disorders are not cured by medication. These are spiritual problems cured only by the use of the mechanics necessary to produce the spiritual life in the person manifesting any of the above forms of mental disorders. Everyone of the above mental disorders are cured by Bible doctrine resident in the soul,


COMMENT:
HOW MUCH DOCTRINE? which ones? for how long? Can we learn this from the Bible? {are you kidding?} WHY DOESN'T MY BIBLE SAY ANY OF THIS?


THIEME SAYS:
and we will never fully appreciate the plan of God for the human race, nor will we understand the present depravity of the United States of America until we are willing to recognize and label the above conditions as mental disorders. When you finally come to grips with this labeling issue, you will begin to realize that there are not many sane people in this country, and one of the main reasons for any person’s unwillingness to make such an acknowledgement is that “the pot doesn’t want to call the kettle black.”


COMMENT:
NOT MANY SANE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY? The USA is in trouble because of US not LABELING THESE MENTAL DISORDERS PROPERLY?

Whose POT is calling what KETTLE BLACK?
To be continued...

Sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 10:17AM by sistersoap.