<sup>[[color=#009933]Truthtesty: Thieme's hermenutics are pathetic. One such example is Thieme says you should insert in place of the Blood, “the SPIRITUAL DEATH” of Christ. This is a violation of the basic hermeneutical principles of Scripture interpretation by setting up a typology in the New Testament based on the anti-type also in the New Testament. Type and anti-type are Old Testament "Type" to New Testament "Anti-Type". This is BASIC hermenuetics and NOT ADVANCED hermenuetics AND Thieme fumbles the ball. Thieme forces this on the average people who really don't know much about hermenuetics. Most average people think "well he went to school so it must be true" but it is not true. Again this "private interpretation" of Thieme's is to support his false fascist politically extreme ideology.[/color]

TT , You are mistaken. All of RBT's doctrinal conclusions are not derived strictly from hermenutics but an evaluation of a combination of categorical doctrines, exegesis and other texual critcism that one learns in Semenary. Plus you are also concluding that Dr Chafer can not be improved upon which is an inaccurate conclusion. You are saying that LS Chafer had it all and we or other men of God in the future just have to stop studying and lean strictly on the teachings of LS Chafer. Well at least that is where you have gone.
I take nothing away from the brillance of LSC but he is a man also and ALL men are fallible, You, I, RBT, Walls, LSC all but Christ. We are all in this spiritual fight together. We are not the enemy but Satan and demons are</sup> .

Truthtesty: No you are mistaken. I never said All of RBT's doctrinal conclusions are derived strictly from hermenutics I said "This is a violation of the basic hermeneutical principles of Scripture interpretation by setting up a typology in the New Testament based on the anti-type also in the New Testament.

That is not my conclusion. That is not where I have gone. Again you are mistaken. I never said that Dr. Chafer cannot be improved upon. I am performing my personal study comparing and contrasting not just Thieme and Chafer, but many theologians AND MY OWN STUDY, if you'd open your eyes you'd see that. Do your own study and leave speaking for myself to me.

Truthtesty

<sup>Truthtesty: Thieme's "TRIPLE COMPOUND DISCIPLINE" is FALSE because Thieme is referring to Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.

This is one of the false fear tactics of the Thieme temple. Cults do not like to be exposed it is no wonder Thieme says "Every believer should develop a conscious habit of keeping his mouth shut..." Christian Suffering by R. B. Thieme jr.

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.

But still? What am I doing? One 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God." (not Thieme) Two 1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The Thieme cult definitely tried to squeeze Matthew 7:2 into the "Age of Grace" or "Church Age", but that's a "Kingdom" Law.
This is another proof for "test all things" and performing your own personal study.
Truthtesty</sup>

Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.

Thieme quote: We must approach the Word of God with utmost care. Never are we to indiscriminately lift a phrase here and a verse there and apply them to suit our fancy. We must always analyze the Scripture in the light of certain principles of interpretation The Integrity of God by RB Thieme jr.

Truthtesty: IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE CHURCH AGE BELIEVER OF THIS CHURCH AGE DISPENSATION.

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.

THIEME KNEW THAT.

Thieme quote: Dispensational Theology holds the key to understanding the Scriptures in their proper perspective. Dispensationalism clarifies the difference between Israel and the Church and defines the Christian’s modus operandi and his relationships. Anti-Semitism by R.B. Thieme, Jr.

THIEME KNEW THAT!

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.

THEREFORE IT IS A DELIBERATE, HYPOCRITICAL, AND INTENTIONAL FALSIFICATION OF THE SCRIPTURE FOR THIEME'S CULT.

Thieme started using his false teaching on "Triple Compound Discipline" at least as of the early 1970's. As far as I know Thieme never recanted his false teaching on "Triple Compound Discipline". And as we all can clearly see pss is still using it.

This is not an improvement on Dr. Chafer's categorical teachings of dispensational Systematic Theology. This is a retardation from Dr. Chafer. Thieme is intentionally and unecessarily intimidating unwitting christians, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thieme is using and inducing unnecessary fear into unwitting chrisitans, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thereby misrepresenting the Word of God and handling the Word of God deceitfully.

Thieme cult doctrine.

As we have seen before Thieme's teachings produce unecessary repression of guilt in unwitting christians.

Dr. Wall Unless the full ramifications of true agreement about (or acknowledgement of) sins are taught, there can be practical abuses of the doctrine of confession. Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can possible produce in the carnal mind a "license mentality."15 In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin16 and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship. [www.texaswalls.org]

Cults use fear and guilt to program their members to believe that their lives are worthless outside of the group. It is hard to imagine the pain these buried psychic land mines cause when the person manages to leave. Cult experiences and indoctrination have to be worked through during an essential soul-searching recovery period, which usually takes months and sometimes years. by Steven Hassan, M.Ed., L.M.H.C., N.C.C.

Hassan authored "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves"

[www.icsahome.com]


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2008 02:31AM by Truthtesty.

Truthtesty: Thieme's "TRIPLE COMPOUND DISCIPLINE" is FALSE because Thieme is referring to Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.

Also note that Thieme references Matthew 7:1 for false proof for punishment for sins of the tongue.

Sins of the tongue are the basis for further punitive action from God (Matt. 7: 1 ).

Whatever discipline for sins attributed to the victim of sins of the tongue is also added to the maligner (Matt. 7:2). "Isolation of sin" by RB Thieme

Truthtesty: AGAIN, These are falsehoods as seen before. Matthew 7:1-6 are Kingdom Law, NOT "Church Age" or "Grace age".

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.

This should help people to begin to deal with Thieme's false CULT implanted phobias.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 174 However, the gospel of the kingdom was a bona fide message to Israel. To treat it otherwise is to accuse God of trickery and deception. It is likewise a serious misrepresentation of all related Scriptures to apply the message and teaching of the King to the present purposes of God in this age of grace.

Also, Thieme twisted Dr. Chafer's message on confession. Dr. Chafer says Vol. 7, Page 216 confession is really self-judgment. And Chafer Vol. 7, Page 71 "confession is self-judgment and is an expression outwardly of an inward repentance of heart."

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 7, Page 283
If through weakness, willfullness, or ignorance the Christian does sin, there is a cure provided. On the human side there must be a genuine confession and repentance of heart (2 Cor. 7:8–11; 1 John 1:9). On the divine side there is “an advocate with the Father,” and the Father “is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Note Thieme leaves out 2 Cor. 7:8-11 dealing with repentence. 2 Cor. 7:8–11
8For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 11For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.


Also, the self-judgment and repentence teaching of Dr. Chafer is very similar to what SpiritualLiberty stated on this forum on March 05, 2007 09:09PM Post subject: Response to ephesians (continued) [forum.culteducation.com]


Truthtesty

pss quote Do cults teach Salvation correctly?

Truthtesty: It is possible for that group to practice "cult group dynamics"? Yes. Is the leader of that group capable of sin and deceit? capable of murder? capable of lies? capable of misrepresentations? capable of simple error? etc...? YES. Of course. Thieme or any group leader is capable of sin and deceit. And you know that.

pss quote If they can then when a person is born again into the Family of God through Faith alone in Chriat alone, how can they be labeled truly a cult?

Truthtesty: Because they can practice "cult group dynamics" and are not above sinning and falsehood.

pss quote Cult like is at best what one could describe it as.

Truthtesty: I just explained to you how groups that teach salvation correctly can be cults. "Because they can practice "cult group dynamics" and are not above sinning and falsehood."

pss quote But if one is taught to be occupied with Christ and also the procedures on how to accomplish that is explained and after applying those principles God shows you in so many ways that those principles and Bible Docrtine works then Cult like would also have to be elliminated as an applicable description as well.

Truthtesty: Incorrect.

"Occupied with Christ" is Thieme generalized terminology. The only place that I could find that Thieme uses as reference for "Occupied with Christ" is 2 Timothy 4:7-8 in Thieme's booklet "The Divine Outline of History":

2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I do not see "Occupied with Christ" anywhere in 2 Timothy 4:7,8.

Chafer says Vol. 2, Page 332, Vol. 6, Page 179, Vol. 6, Page 294 "fight the good fight of faith" is maintaining an attitude of faith.

However, is it still possible to be deceived on this earth, even though one maintains an attitude of faith? Yes. That's why there is the warning about false teachers. If it were not possible to be deceived then there would be no warning of false teachers. That's why skepticsm and testing reliabilty of teachers is so important. That's why submission to the Holy Spirit's authority is always the priority. That's why it says "study to show thyself approved unto God" not "approved unto your corrupt flesh and blood teacher".

Where did you get the foolish idea that Thieme was never in error? Did you assume that, because Thieme never admitted to error? If you believe Thieme has made error where is the limited or unlimited extent of that error? What is the timeframe of Thieme's error? 1 minute?, 1 week?, 1 year?, 1 decade?, 4 decades?

Before this forum have you even actually looked once to see if Thieme made just 1 error? If not? Why not?


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

<sup>Truthtesty: Thieme's "TRIPLE COMPOUND DISCIPLINE" is FALSE because Thieme is referring to Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.

Also note that Thieme references Matthew 7:1 for false proof for punishment for sins of the tongue.

Sins of the tongue are the basis for further punitive action from God (Matt. 7: 1 ).

Whatever discipline for sins attributed to the victim of sins of the tongue is also added to the maligner (Matt. 7:2). "Isolation of sin" by RB Thieme

Truthtesty: AGAIN, These are falsehoods as seen before. Matthew 7:1-6 are Kingdom Law, NOT "Church Age" or "Grace age".

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.</sup>


DISPENSATIONS DEFINED
A dispensation is a period of human history defined in terms of Divine revelation. According to the Bible, history is a sequence of Divine administrations. These consecutive eras reflect the unfolding of God’s plan for mankind. They constitute the Divine viewpoint of history and the theological interpretation of history. The doctrine of dispensations is the vehicle by which believers living at a specific time can orient to God’s will, plan, and purpose for their lives. God never changes. In the essence of God there is “no variation, or shifting shadow” (Jas_1:17). Change, however, is an integral characteristic of His plan for creation. But God is never impulsive or arbitrary. The changes He incorporates into His plan are designed to attain His unchangeable purpose (Heb_6:17). In different periods of human history, the Biblical answer to “After salvation, what?” involves different illustrations and procedures, for the reception, retention, and recall of Truth. (Psa_1:1-6) The doctrine of dispensations recognizes these differences as well as the continuities that run from one period to the next. This doctrine, therefore, becomes essential for understanding the believer’s post salvation experience. Knowledge of dispensations enables the individual believer to handle the word of Truth accurately and to appreciate the magnificent grace of God both in its particular provisions and in its overall objectives. In contrast, failure to distinguish one biblical era from another creates apparent contradictions in Divine commands, and prevents the believer from understanding current Divine guidance, thus retards his all-important spiritual growth. The Divine Outline of History by RB Thieme jr


The doctrine of dispensations provides the biblical system of interpretation for understanding why certain Divine provisions are currently nonoperational, as well as why others are currently operational. In no way does this mean the believer can pick and choose which Divine commands he wants to obey. Each dispensation is God's administration, not man's, and God gives firm and extended guidance for every period of history. Advancing believers are not disobedient or in danger of lawlessness simply because they do not observe the rules God set forth for another age. Indeed, their spiritual growth comes from obedience to God's instructions for the current dispensation. The doctrine of dispensations relieves the Christian's doubts about whether or not God holds him responsible for observing certain practices. This gives his life direction, frees him from a false sense of obligation or guilt, and by answering his questions encourages him to dig deeper into the riches of the Word of God.
The well-informed believer is able to compare and contrast the dispensations. The Divine Outline of History by RB Thieme jr

Is your life free from obligation and guilt? Or are you enslaved to obligation and guilt?

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.

So? if Thieme really believed that then why did Thieme teach "Kingdom Law" from another dispensation as applicable to the "Church age" dispensation? Thiemites need to question this.

Thiemites? does that mean as Thieme says:

"In contrast, failure to distinguish one biblical era from another creates apparent contradictions in Divine commands, and prevents the believer from understanding current Divine guidance, thus retards his all-important spiritual growth

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 174 However, the gospel of the kingdom was a bona fide message to Israel. To treat it otherwise is to accuse God of trickery and deception. It is likewise a serious misrepresentation of all related Scriptures to apply the message and teaching of the King to the present purposes of God in this age of grace.

So ask yourselfs thiemites why? Why is Thieme obviously teaching "kingdom law" from another dispensation in this "Church Age" dispensation. Why? You speak of your concept of "spiritual growth" Yet? Thieme says to mix commands from different dispensations " retards spiritual growth ".

Yet Thieme does exactly that.

So why did Thieme do it? Could it be fear and intimidation? The same concept as "chewing someone out in the back" of the auditorium, when there was no one there?



Truthtesty

<sup>pss quote: ps quote: Pastors will have to give an account. Greek= APODIDOMI is the root word for APODUSONTES which is in the Nomnative. plural Future active participle, Meaning to render a due, to give an answer to a claim or expectation, and with it's grammtical construction meaning now and in the future at the judgement seat of Christ.

Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17

So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.</sup>


Truthtesty: I previously answered this [forum.culteducation.com], but in addition:

Pastor - apodidomi logos - in Heb. 13:17

Believer - didomi logos - in Romans 14:12

[www.levendwater.org]

Pastors have to give back an account for (false/true) teachings to a believer, but as Romans 14:10-12 (KJV) says:

10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [www.searchgodsword.org]

The believer is to didomi logos "to give" account.

didomi {did'-o-mee}; a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an altern. in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection): --adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew

Your are still responsible thiemites as much as you would like to forget about your insecurities about different teachings and responsibilities for your personal studying (and actions as it relates to the real world), by submitting your discriminating faculties to Thieme's corrupt flesh and blood authority.

No one here is impressed with your fundamental linguistics. The KJV is very clear and the average person could read the KJV get the clear meaning.

Ignorance is not an excuse, nor is it bliss.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Thieme spoke alot about opening doors for women and emphazing social manners. For men to be gentlemen.

One of the many things that I have noticed about Thieme is that he was no gentleman about opening the door for christians to see both sides of an arguement. Just one more of the many differences that I see between Thieme and his highly regarded mentor and professor Dr. Chafer, is that Thieme never tells you Chafer stated an opposing arguement. Thieme doesn't "open the door" for the christian to use thier own discrimination thier own critical faculties by comparing and contrasting Chafer's teachings with Thieme's. Thieme doesn't say "Well Dr. Chafer taught this way and I disagree and here's why". No Thieme never mentions where Chafer disagreed.

Ask yourself is that "real" teaching? Think about it.

Here is one more disagreement with Dr. Chafer that Thieme has(that he didn't tell you about). The "Sermon on the Mount". Thieme fictionally creates "The Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union", thereby enabling Thieme to incorporate the very strict authoritarian commands and bypassing the "spiritual retardation" of "picking verses" from different dispensations.. No one has ever heard of this dispensation before, because it did not exist before Thieme created it.

Indeed Thieme was no gentleman about opening the door for the careful student to use thier own discriminatory abilities to judge between Dr. Chafer and Thieme. No gentleman at all. That door was nailed shut. And as far as Thieme was concerned you mind could stay closed forever.

More on Thieme's newly fictionalized creation "The Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union" later...


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Dr. Chafer does speak of The Hypostatic Union (two natures in Christ). However, as mentioned before, Thieme "creates" a new dispensation - "Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union", but Dr. Chafer does not.

Dr. Chafer's mentionings of the Hypostatic Union in "Systematic Theology":
Vol. 1, Page 382, Vol. 1, Page 396, Vol. 3, Page 33, Vol. 1, Page 72, Vol. 1, Page 364, Vol. 1, Page 355, Vol. 1, Page 350, Vol. 1, Page 339, Vol. 1, Page 385, Vol. 7, Page 120, Vol. 1, Page 314, Vol. 1, Page 380, Vol. 1, Page 394, Vol. 3, Page 12, Vol. 2, Page 52, Vol. 4, Page 291, Vol. 1, Page 321, Vol. 1, Page l, Vol. 3, Page iv, Vol. 7, Page 79.


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2008 10:02PM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's mentionings of the "Sermon on the Mount" in Systematic Theology:

Vol. 8, Page 73, Vol. 5, Page 112, Vol. 5, Page 102, Vol. 5, Page 101, Vol. 5, Page 98, Vol. 5, Page 114, Vol. 3, Page 23, Vol. 4, Page 215, Vol. 5, Page 108, Vol. 5, Page 140, Vol. 8, Page iii, Vol. 5, Page 344, Vol. 4, Page 212, Vol. 5, Page iv, Vol. 5, Page 166, Vol. 5, Page 97, Vol. 5, Page 96, Vol. 4, Page 220, Vol. 4, Page 177, Vol. 7, Page 141, Vol. 7, Page 249, Vol. 7, Page 164


Truthtesty