The posts on here run from
> genuine hurt to vicious bullying attacks to almost
> incoherent nonsense,

Wow. That’s one hell of a way to talk about survivors of spiritual abuse. “Incoherent.” Just wow. If some of the posters on here read a little wild and out there at times, how do you think they might have become like that? Being told as a child that the end times is coming and you’re going to be tortured into grassing up your parents will send you a bit strange.


The fellowship has changed a lot, as
> have the people in it. The majority of the posts
> here represent a partially complete snap shot of
> events over a decade ago, and don’t take into
> account that people do change over time, regret
> things, learn to handle situations better.

So where is the apology? Where’s the acknowledgement that hurt was done? You’re the first person I’ve even heard use the word “regret”, and even that’s nowhere near “sorry”.


> To answer your other question, no there isn’t
> usually a higher authority in independent
> evangelical churches,

I mean my question was rhetorical but thanks for mansplaining.

If anything happens that
> you disagree with, leave. If anything illegal
> happens, notify the police. If your tile there
> results in damages, go to court.

If it were that simple why would this forum even exist? Do you know how cults control people? And even if it were that simple for adults, what about those of us who were children when some of these things were done to us?

(By the way those questions are also rhetorical.)

My first query was whether or not KCF has really changed. If your reply is representative of their current ethos, I have my answer, so thanks, in a way, I guess.

ALongTimeAgo

> Wow. That’s one hell of a way to talk about
> survivors of spiritual abuse.

I didn’t realise that self-labelling yourself anonymously as a survivor of spiritual abuse made it ok to launch vicious, public, slanderous attacks on individuals without any evidence.

> So where is the apology? Where’s the
> acknowledgement that hurt was done? You’re the
> first person I’ve even heard use the word
> “regret”, and even that’s nowhere near “sorry”.

I have nothing to be sorry about regarding these events. I regret that people were hurt on both sides. Apologies are needed from both sides. I can’t dictate what others do, but if I personally felt I was owed an apology I would start by approaching the person and asking for one.

> I mean my question was rhetorical but thanks for
> mansplaining.

And how could I have known that? I’m sorry I mistook your question as genuine curiosity and tried to answer it helpfully, I guess? I know lots of people from an Anglican/Catholic/Non-Christian background who could easily have (and indeed have in the past) asked that non-rhetorically.

> (By the way those questions are also rhetorical.)

Thanks for letting me know.

> My first query was whether or not KCF has really
> changed. If your reply is representative of their
> current ethos, I have my answer, so thanks, in a
> way, I guess.

I have no idea what the leadership of KCF think on the subject, and I certainly do not represent KCF in any way.

You asked if KCF had changed, I tried my best to answer. 2018 KCF is not a cult. For one, there is no one position on anything that must be agreed on or you are out, like real cults. For another, there is no attempt to control or dictate anyone’s personal life/time/commitments.

I’m sorry you reacted angrily to my words, and assumed evil intent where there was none. I wish you health, happiness, and peace.

> I didn’t realise that self-labelling yourself
> anonymously

(says anonymous man)


> I have nothing to be sorry about regarding these
> events.

Didn’t mean you but rather the KCF leadership — if, as you say, they have “regrets” it means even they know they did something wrong. So they should apologise.

I
> can’t dictate what others do, but if I personally
> felt I was owed an apology I would start by
> approaching the person and asking for one.

I don’t know if you’ve been following the #metoo movement but it might interest you to know that in fact there are myriad reasons why survivors of any kind of abuse (sexual in the case of #metoo, spiritual in the case of KCF) wouldn’t approach their abuser.



> I have no idea what the leadership of KCF think on
> the subject, and I certainly do not represent KCF
> in any way.

Then I cannot help but wonder why you’re here. No new posts on this thread for a while and not much activity for years; I post to see how people are feeling these days and very suddenly you pop up, having not posted before as far as I can see (my username is new but as I said in my earlier post I’ve posted here before).

These are forums for ex cult members, for “battered sheep” so to speak, for survivors of spiritual abuse, a safe space for often vulnerable people, and this particular section is for discussing KCF within that remit. You are an apologist for what absolutely once was (and may still be) a pretty messed-up cult (I was there).

As for “slander”; you mentioned going to the appropriate authorities in an earlier post; I’m sure you’re aware there are appropriate ways to get slander — even anonymous — reported and removed from Internet forums. If KCF are so concerned let them follow these procedures.

I won’t be engaging with you again.

ALongTimeAgo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> (says anonymous man)

I didn’t use my anonymity to attack anyone. You’ve made two disparaging remarks now about me being a man...I wonder why?

> Then I cannot help but wonder why you’re here.

As I clearly said, I have people I love on both sides and after much thought I decided to post in response to what I thought was a genuine query about the current situation at KCF. I very seem to have seriously misjudged your motives.

> You are an apologist

I’m a person who likes to get both sides of the story and attempt to reconcile people.

> I won’t be engaging with you again.

Ok.

To anyone reading this, wondering if KCF has changed, I think this poster’s three replies tell you all you need to know. Have a look at DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender) with a good dose of acting the nice guy (just wanting to reconcile people etc.)

You can see this disingenuousness in the anger seething beneath some of the responses compared with the nicey-nicey parts of the replies. The attack on forum members (“incoherent”). The accusations of slander (contrast with him suggesting that survivors should just have gone to the police, no thought (possibly deliberately) that many of us here were children at the time. (And the idea being that survivors should use official channels but my suggestion KCF should do the same ignored). We’ve seen that a lot in the #MeToo movement — as far as I know there was no sexual abuse (although the “show me on a doll where you’ve been touched” episode skirted pretty close) at KCF but the parallels between the responses and this poster’s response are striking. In #MeToo women have been ridiculed for not going to the police and instead using social media to “slander” their abusers. This is so similar because it’s classic control tactics. This KCF member wants to diminish these testimonies.

And yet over his barely-concealed anger he spreads a veneer of niceness. Wishing me happiness. Just wanting to reconcile. People he loves on both sides. And so on. And yet if you look through his replies you’ll see very little empathy with survivors and most of it with KCF.

And then, not to sound tinfoil hat but it is slightly concerning, there’s how on earth he found this recent post of mine so quickly. He hasn’t posted here under this name before, hasn’t posted on this entire forum. And yet as soon as I post, first post under this name and first post anyone’s put on here in a while, up he pops seemingly out of the blue. Perhaps he is watching this thread (which, again, I know sounds a little paranoid, but then alternative is that he just happened to stumble across it a day after I’d posted on it for the first time in years). Watching out for dissent and trying to squash it immediately is pretty controlling.

I do actually feel slightly disappointed. I don’t ever plan to reconcile with KCF but I think it would help many survivors of the spiritual abuse they perpetuated during the eighties and nineties if they had changed and were prepared to admit they’d behaved terribly during that time. I can see now that’s never going to happen. Perhaps they’re worried if they apologise publicly it might lead to legal claims. I don’t know. It could simply be they don’t believe what they did was at all wrong and controlling.

I’d hoped I’d have some responses from other ex-members who used to post on here and it seems all I’ve done is attracted a KCF member, which has possibly been triggering for anyone else reading. I’m sorry. I am hopeful though that the silence means you have all recovered to the extent you are busy getting on with your lives with little thought of KCF. Much love to you all. X

(This post is also, in case it needs to be said, written for ex-members / survivors and people who used to post here regularly.)

This is my theory about what’s happened with KCF. I do suspect it’s less cult-like than it was, and may even no longer meet official definitions of “cult”. I do think it’s still pretty fundamentalist and evangelical (which doesn’t automatically make it a cult, though the Venn diagram of cults and unaccountable evangelical churches isn’t far off being a circle.)

About a decade ago, a few things seemed to happen all at once. Some of the elders left the fellowship. They were deeply unhappy with how things had been going. Whether or not they “had an axe to grind” is almost immaterial; survivors tend to be bitter and angry after what they’ve been through.

At the same time two blogs did the rounds, one from an ex-member who had grown up in KCF, another from someone who wasn’t an ex-member but had a relative who was, and who’d suffered poor mental health as a result.

I think — and this is just my opinion, I don’t know any people involved in KCF to ask — at this point the current leadership got “spooked”. Perhaps they worried there might indeed be a court case or similar brought against them. Certainly it was very bad publicity that if you typed Kirkby Christian Fellowship into google, the autocomplete added “cult”.

Or perhaps the current leadership had been looking all along to make a change, to break with the (horrific) past and appear a little more modern.

They took this opportunity to be a little less “church of no compromise” and a little more “heaven sent”, getting more involved in community projects, being a little more transparent. And just like in Orwell’s Animal Farm, when Snowball leaves and Napoleon blames everything on him, I suspect that’s what happened with those elders who left. Everything was blamed on them. In a kind of “mistakes were made but not by us. The ethos was down to those who have now left, they were responsible for the church’s cult-like behaviour and spiritual abuse” way.

Again this is only my theory. And also I’m very conscious that some ex members might have issues with those elders who left at that time. I don’t want to characterise them as just convenient scapegoats. It’s complicated and I don’t want to gaslight those people who were harmed by those who left.

Of course the leadership had to characterise the posters on this forum as incoherent, nasty, slanderous, bitter. The elders who left especially. The mantra of “fault on both sides”, which makes them appear reasonable. Added to the way that some of the posts on this forum do seem a little wild (because survivors often are sent into poor mental health as a result of what they’ve been through), with accusations of witchcraft, talking about lesbianism as if there’s something wrong with it (though there is something wrong with hypocrisy, and if KCF leaders are involved in same-sex relationships after preaching against it, that’s hypocritical) and seeming paranoia. (Though it’s hard not to be paranoid when within a day of posting on a forum a current member shows up!)

Folks, I don’t think we’ll ever get our apology or even an admission of guilt. But please don’t let anyone gaslight you. These things did happen. I was sat there as the fellowship’s leader stood at the front of the pyramid suite and told everyone how a man member was in the wrong for having a relationship with a non-Christian woman, in front of him. Many of us were there when we were told a female member who had “spread rumours” (truth) and temporarily left her husband “was in sin”, in the days of ‘the building’. Many of you remember our music choices (no pop or rock) and even the soft toys we played with (no frogs!) being controlled. We remember what was said about “backsliders”. We’ve seen the documents online about “knitted relationships” (as recently as 2007, so this kind of behaviour carried on after we’d left) and how they could cause breakdowns. And we remember similar episodes (covenanting and convocation for example). We remember how revival was always around the corner and when it didn’t come it was the fault of the congregation.

These things happened. And they were spiritual abuse. And sure, we will never have our apology but what we must not let anyone take away from us is the facts. What was done to us was wrong, regardless of whether or not has changed (and as I said earlier my thought is they probably have, but not much, given the enlightening posts by a KCF member this last day or so).

Love to you all.

I’ll leave it to the reader to decide who is “seething with anger”. So far two attacks on me have been solely based on my gender - in 2018 no less.

The only story here is that a non-member of KCF with loved ones on both sides of this very tangled web of he-said she-said who has read, (but never felt the need to post in) this forum mistoook the above poster for a genuinely curious passer-by and suffered the consequences.

My mistake. Why now and not before? Well, look at the last few pages. Not really much to respond to for someone in my position was there?

For anyone reading, you’ll see how this is pure DARVO. For ex-members in particular, you’ll see some parallels between this and classic KCF behaviour.

Survivors, you have an absolute right to your anger, to be angry. Whereas the anger of abusers and their apologists is because they see any attempt to escape their control as an attack on them.

I feel this has unfortunately been more like stirring a hornets nest than my original intention of seeing who had news and/or any closure (sorry to any this has triggered. I didn’t mean to bring this apologist here). If he posts again I will report him as then it will be bordering on harassment.

He has a right to his say of course, but I think he has more than said it, and this forum isn’t for him, but for ex-cult members and survivors. Usually these types cry “free speech” a lot, until it’s free speech of survivors and then that’s “slander”. We’ll see.

How is defending my true intentions from your false accusations harassment? Comparing me to an abuser maliciously discrediting his victims is truly vile. I can see there is no point in interacting with you further. I’m truly sorry you think it’s ok to treat other people with such anger and decietful malice. I wish you no ill will, and that is all.

Have reported AintreeLad as I said I would. It may or may not lead to a ban; I’m not sure this low level of harassment counts with the forum or not, and of course these types potentially have “sock puppet” accounts. Again I’m truly sorry to have brought this person here with his gaslighting.

I suppose the good thing that’s come out of it is, if it’s true he didn’t clock straight away that I was a former member (even though I said in my post that I’d been here before under a different name) this shows how KCF apologists will talk about what happened with those they think are laypeople. “Fault on both sides”, “incoherent”, “personal attacks” and “slander”. Hand-waving and DARVO.

I think it’s fair to say this is no longer a safe space if indeed it ever was. It is of course a public forum and anyone can post, anyone can read. For our own sakes, and for the sakes of any we know who are caught up in KCF still (I don’t know anyone there but wonder if some of you might) we do have to choose our words carefully and who we name. This isn’t to silence survivors but so that we bear in mind if people like AintreeLad are crawling this forum there will be others prepared to try and use our words against us and paint us as the aggressors (the RVO part of DARVO).

Some may even have chosen to forgive and forget and that’s their call. That might be what some of you have chosen to do. It’s not going to work for me. But if it does for you that’s great.

If any of you want to PM me feel free. But I don’t think I’ll post here again, I regret stirring up this man’s anger, and I may even go back and delete my posts lest they be used against survivors of KCF or my words twisted to try and wound anyone who is genuinely hurting or would rather forget about this whole era and fellowship. That’s the last thing I want.