'He sets up the bogus fake Permission Granting trick, that he might not take your 3 grand to attend his seminar, which is just a manipulation tactic.'

I think this is really just about usurping the customer's own power of choice and keeping all power in the hands of the seller--or the leader who is bent on developing a cult following.


I read 'On Bullshit' by Harry G. Frankfurt, a worthwhile read though not too detailed on specific ploys in use.

“’All men shall be my slaves! All women shall succumb to my charms! All mankind shall grovel at my feet and not know why!’”

another quote from L Ron, taken from a long article posted by Christa on the James Ray thread but relevant here also:

www.arts.ualberta.ca

Quote
christa

"Here's a link to a superb article about malignant narcissism. It's long, but worth it. The main subject is L.Ron Hubbard, and there's a lot of discussion of Joseph Smith and others of that ilk.

This article addresses Anticult's question about Ray and his women followers quite well, and provides a great deal of insight into Ray, Andrew Cohen and many of the other exploiters we write about in this forum."

[www.arts.ualberta.ca]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2010 11:49PM by Stoic.

A little more about Kevin Hogan's "Boot Camp"....

He says the "keynote speaker" is Mark Joyner. (Lakhani is also speaking there.)

Let's take a little look at Joyner.

As with Hogan and Lakhani, there's a lot of hype on Amazon. Thankfully that's not all you'll find.

Here are some Amazon reviewers' comments/criticisms re Mark Joyner’s book, "Simpleology: The Simple Science of Getting What You Want":

* Maybe Obvious*ology would be better., August 28, 2009
<snip>

The truth is he is using the very same manipulation tactics he discusses in the book. And is setting up a Us .Vs them frame so that you will think he has the answer but to get it you have to go to his website. This is just a lead generation tool for him to get you to sign up at his site. How people are saying this book is amazing I don't get it. Maybe I have just studied a lot more than the average reader. This is a pointless waste of time. Save your money, save your time.

* Not Worth Your Time, March 4, 2009
I bought this book when it first came out. After eagerly reading it in one sitting (on an airplane) I kept waiting for it to tell me something useful. It did not. I also signed up for the Simpleology 101 course. It is entirely possible that I have done enough productivity improvement work over the years, but I did not find anything useful in the course either. The part that I find the most odd, is that despite the fact that Mark tries to help you become more productive, he floods your e-mail box with incredibly long time wasting e-mails daily. Whats up with that? His software crashed my computer. As other reviewers have stated, "it took over my computer." That was a bummer because that was the only thing of Mark's that I found remotely useful.

<snip>

* The simple science of getting people to pay for advertising, November 19, 2009
I wrote about listening to the audio book back in June and have since checked out the web site. I feel I have better footing now to give an assessment. Unfortunately, I have to side with the naysayers. I am not sure whether or not I would use the term "scam" to describe the book, but I would certainly go with "Bait and switch". The book claims to teach you a system to get what you want in life. It then spends the first 80% or so of the book talking about how marketers think and how they manipulate. The part that is the reason most readers presumably bought the book is underdeveloped and tacked on at the end. It contains such advice as "don't be distracted from your goal". Well, I'd like not to be distracted, but I already knew that. How? It doesn't say. It does give an oversimplified example using a glass of water. But there is nothing in the book that translates the philosophy from glasses of water to real life.

To learn what you need, you have to sign up for the "free" web site. I put "free" in quotes because although you pay no money, it will cost you in time. Joyner is a marketer by trade and this site is pure marketing. You do get some material for free, and it may be helpful. I wasn't able to get much out of it, but that could be because I was not in a place to really embrace the system. Instead, I was overwhelmed by the barrage of emails with other products and services from Mark and people he trusts (his affiliates) that would "take me to the next level" or be "the next big thing" and were "limited time opportunities". I had to get in before he "opened it up to the rest of the world". In this respect, I found Simpleology amusingly like Penn and Teller. He told us exactly how the trick was done with all the chapters on marketing. Then he used those techniques on us to get us to give him more money.

<snip>

[[url=http://www.amazon.com/Simpleology-Simple-Science-Getting-What/product-reviews/0470095229/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar]www.amazon.com[/url]]

(note: bold emphases mine)

Hmmm.... do any of the above criticisms sound familiar? ;-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2010 03:18AM by helpme2times.

An unhappy reader of Mark Joyner's "Simpleology" felt compelled to start a "discussion" of the book at Amazon:

Is This Book A Scam?

Is this book for real? Every review is five stars, and most of them appear to be from authors and people related to "simple ology." (from Patrick R. Bowman)

Someone called "Hopefully Helpful" responds to this discussion, and boy does he/she have a lot to say:

THIS WAS AN ACTUAL COMMENT I POSTED AFTER BUYING THE BOOK. MY COMMENT WAS POSTED APRIL 7 AND AMAZON ACTUALLY DELETED IT BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY APRIL 7. **** New Info **** My 2nd review was deleted as well. It had the 2nd highest usefull rating (32 useful votes) of this book (even with one star) and dropped the book from the top 100 to above 500, but after it was deleted, I noticed the book is now #59. I have just posted my 3rd review in an attempt to keep anyone from losing their money.

Yes, I believe it is a scam. I feel tricked. I feel horrible about buying this book. I am angry. I want my money back. And DON'T BELIEVE ANY POST THAT GIVES THIS BOOK OVER 1 STAR. I believe this book is a NEW MARKETING "SPAMMING" METHOD, that actually gets you to buy a book just to go to their website to buy other things! Why are there so many 5 stars? 16 posts only 6 days after release and they're ALL 5 stars! NO WAY!

I wish there were a way to declare this type of marketing a crime, but I bought it, so I have to live with it. BUT, I WILL TRY TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET YOUR MONEY! Please, please, please make sure other people don't feel tricked like I did by marking this post as "helpful" if you think it is helpful.

WHAT THE AUTHOR ACTUALLY WRITES AND WHAT YOU THINK YOU ARE BUYING DUE TO WHAT THE TITLE OF THE BOOK SUGGESTS ARE NOT THE SAME AT ALL. In fact, the author clearly states on page viii (before page 1 even begins!) that it is ESSENTIAL TO DOWNLOAD SOFTWARE AND A COMPANION GUIDE WITH THIS BOOK. (I feel unsafe because I gave my email to them, and I feel believe the real reason the author wants you to buy the book is to go to their website and buy stuff). It could lead to shelling out more money if you go through with it) Here's an actual quote what I mean: "This is essential! We've made all of this available to you completely free of charge, so please do this now before you begin reading this book." What? Isn't this a book I bought? It is free, so no harm, but I bought a book to read. Not simple. Simple-ology? Or market-ology with tricker-ology via misrepresent-ology? I went out at night at 10:30pm to get this book, got home and started reading at 11pm only to find out I needed to go to the computer, turn it on, while waking my wife and child. No thanks. I did, however, read the entire book the next day, and was just as disappointed. Read on.

<snip>

PS. Everything I wrote above was before I went to the web site. I didn't want to post this message until I did that. I AM EVEN MORE ANGRY THAN BEFORE! I WAS JUST INTRODUCED TO (IN MY OPINION) AS MUCH OF A TRICKY, SCHEMING ATTEMPT AT TAKING MY MONEY THAN ANY SPAM MESSAGE I HAVE RECEIVED. After registering, one of the first things I was shown, was a long description of how to create more physical energy, feel better, etc, etc. But, . . . for $97 (after a free trial). This appears to me to be a way of spamming me for $23, except not through my email, but buy tricking me into buying a book I then went to the part of the website that provides the "free stuff" talked about in the book. I was so confused, I just stopped. I feel horrible about myself for falling for this. Now they have my email and I feel I will be receiving messages from them to buy stuff.

Please, don't buy this book. In my opinion, I believe the book is a "snake oil" peddler in modern day clothes. Who knows how much money they have made already. I wish there were a way to declare this type of marketing a crime, but I bought it, so I have to live with it. BUT, I WILL TRY TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET ANYONE ELSE'S MONEY.

DO NOT BELIEVE ANY COMMENTS THAT SHOW MORE THAN 1 STAR! All I wanted was to sit down and read a book, and now I am writing my first post ever because I am so angry.

I'll bet you, after this post, there will be plenty of 4-5 star postings that will try to push this post to the page where you can't see it. Please, help other people by keeping that from happening by marking this is helpful. (only if it really IS helpful)

[bold emphasis above is mine]

[[url=http://www.amazon.com/Is-this-Book-a-Scam/forum/Fx31VO6OIBBMQC8/Tx3Q7OU3RBQOVJV/1?_encoding=UTF8&asin=0470095229]www.amazon.com[/url]]

helpme2times, I just read the Amazon reviews and can see your paranoia is well-founded. It seems his website will re-set your home page to his website and he gets through spam filters with personal appeals to blanket people with emails most likely selling more crap.

Do you think this deserves it's own heading? Perhaps under "Multi Level Marketing and Commercial Schemes"? Or maybe under "Coercive Persuasion and Undue Influence"?

I would be interested in seeing your takes on its own thread which would surely draw more people from all over the net who have been scammed/or are thinking about buying the course. I am sure you would also get Mark himself to chime in along with his paid trolls. Could be a real fun thread. Just my two cents...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2010 04:53AM by Sparky.

Good point, Sparky.

We've been honing in on Dave Lakhani, and Mark Joyner as well as others have popped up in relation to him.

It gets a bit tricky because these guys often seem to be splashing around in the same pool.

I guess we can see if enough information emerges to warrant a new thread.

Thanks!

It seems that Dave Lakhani has been very impressed with someone named Ben Mack.

Such that he has worked alongside him, as well as commissioned Mack to write the "Afterword" to his book, "Subliminal Persuasion."

Time to take a look at "Dr." Ben Mack.

According to Ben Mack, Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale is one heck of a guy!

Joe Vitale has of course been mentioned numerous times in the Cult Education Forum:

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/search.php?0,search=%22joe+vitale%22,page=1,match_type=ALL,match_dates=0,match_forum=ALL]forum.culteducation.com[/url]]

Here is Ben Mack in a video testimonial for an "UnSeminar" given by Joe Vitale:

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK-ayCODfQs]www.youtube.com[/url]]

In the testimonial, an interestingly attired Mack says that the UnSeminar uses a "radical different approach". How? Mack actually says this.... that Joe Vitale et al.:

"have the ideas put directly into your skull."

That was a direct quote. I kid you not.

Ben Mack also thinks a lot of Werner Erhard. This is his 5-star Amazon review of the DVD "Transformation: The Life and Legacy of Werner Erhard":

CAN You get iT in 77 minutes? Yes..., June 7, 2008
By Ben Mack (Nacirema)

I would have preferred a video with more sensationalism. Robyn Symon reveals how The Church of Scientology systematically discredited Werner Earhard and how mass media only covered the scandal and didn't care when the accusation were proven false. I get off on those kind of stories which can be found in this hard hitting documentary.

Instead, this 77 minute documentary gives you the building block technology of transformation, the ideas and methods that have retooled modern western business and quantum learning.

The bonus material includes shockingly candid scenes straight from est. If you ever wondered what the big hoopla about Landmark Education's The Forum, you can now see the technology in action. You can watch how Werner separates a participant from their story, an identity that had been holding them prisoner. This video teaches you how to use your mind for a change that will give you completion of your past so that you are present and responsible for yourself in a new way.

Of course the video is not without its detractors. Critics of The Forum discuss how Werner is discussed as victimizing the victimized and compounding their pain. Others hold that this process is the key to letting go of the authentic benefits of being a victim.

This video is not for the intellectually squeamish.

[[url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AS8H91U03ECS4/ref=cm_pdp_rev_title_3?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R35UORQTKF11SB]www.amazon.com[/url]]

Note: Ben Mack's review says his location is "Nacirema". That's a backwards spelling of "American". Um....perhaps that interesting tidbit can be explored another time....

So, I have to wonder.... why is it that Mr. Lakhani has affiliated himself with Ben Mack on many occasions? One would think that a so-called cult expert would have noticed some big red flags about a guy who is so enamored of big-time manipulators like Joe Vitale and Werner Erhard?

More to come on "Dr." Ben Mack....



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2010 05:15AM by helpme2times.

I've read before about this practice amongst this ring of marketers of 'gaming' Amazon where they get their mates to bump up their ratings and make a best-seller out of a rubbish book. Joe Vitale does it regularly, I believe and some cult leaders have also employed this tactic--Maharaji is one I recall mentioned.

This selling of a product, where the product itself is simply a lead generator (just to get your contact details) and is packed with persuasive advertising tricks for endless more expensive products, is the same MLM scam that has so incensed the Salty Droid on his blog. Mark Joyner is one of the originators of this new version of Bait and Switch and most of the IM 'guru' names exposed on the Droid's blog consider him the grandaddy guru. There is another grandaddy guru often mentioned as being in the same league as Joyner, a Michael Masterson who also uses the same type of scammy methods. They're all in the 'make money' market but as in most MLM schemes the suckers at the bottom just seem to funnel money to the ones at the top.

I'm not an internet marketer myself but have been watching this con-game for a while because of the similarities to cult recruitment. Some of the scammers have very large lists of dedicated followers (tens and hundreds of thousands)who never seem to spot the con. They never seem to get anything useful for their money either.

More about "Dr." Ben Mack....

Apparently on 1/31-2/1/09, Ben Mack held an "ESP BootCamp". (There's that term "Boot Camp" again.)

Dave Lakhani was a speaker at that event.

[[url=http://www.boisemicroblog.com/article.cfm/id/475759]ESP Boot Camp in Boise 1/31[/url]]

ESP Boot Camp In Boise 1/31 =
Free Seminar Teaches How to Earn $1,000 a Day as a Telephone Psychic

Prior to the event, there was a (in my opinion, unintentionally comical) telecconference:

[[url=http://espbootcamp.blogspot.com/2009/01/esp-telemixer-replay_26.html]espbootcamp.blogspot.com[/url]]

Here is a short YouTube video about the ESP BootCamp:

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA2UGCKRiPQ]www.youtube.com[/url]]

Dave Lakhani can be seen in this video.

This is something that "Dr." Ben Mack says in the "BootCamp"; you can hear it in the video:

A copywriter writes words that inspire you to take that credit card out of your pocket and hold it up and look at the number and enter that stuff... For the next day and a half, can we talk about that as telekinesis? Are you guys okay with that?

THAT'S telekinesis? Um, okay. Er, uh....

Very small turnout for the BootCamp, from the looks of that video.

Now....

I have discovered something really interesting as well as disturbing.... it appears that someone participating in this BootCamp ended up having a rather unpleasant experience, and she blogged about it. For some reason, "Crescent City Gal" did not cite the name of the event, perhaps for legal reasons, but it does sound like the event in question. For one thing, Dave Lakhani (or at least someone calling themselves that) found his way to the blog and made a telling comment. Also, Crescent City Gal wrote her blog on the same day the seminar was finished.

Her blog entry is entitled: Public Verbal Abuse as a Business Practice = FAIL

Crescent City Gal:

I love educational seminars the way some people love chocolate, so I was delighted that my schedule would allow me to attend one being held on Super Bowl Weekend. Admission Price was touted as being the purchase of one CD on a subject with which I was already quite familiar, so we booked our room and started studying the lessons from the CD we purchased as our admission. Oh, what a FUN experience this was intended to be.

But that's not how it turned out for her.

Now suspend for a moment the fact that he verbally abused me in front of a room full of my associates and colleages after pretending to be my friend, which is a personal matter, and think strictly business for a moment. Ask yourself this question: Was this Good Business Practice? You decide. Here's what that one moment of non-professional behavior in a business setting has set into motion:

Will I ever buy anything endorsed by this person? No.

Will I ever buy anything on which this person has placed a testimonial? No.

Will I ever buy anything from anybody who is associated with this person? Probably not.

Will I remember how it felt to be treated with such disrespect? Oh, yes.

For how long? For the rest of my life.

Will I tell my friends and fellow professionals? You better believe it.

(My note: it appears that Mr. Lakhini was not the person who engaged in the alleged verbal abuse, but rather the "organizer", as Cresent City Gal calls him/her.... which seems to have been Mr. Mack?)

[[url=http://kleppin.blogspot.com/2009/02/public-verbal-abuse-as-business.html]kleppin.blogspot.com[/url]]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2010 09:17AM by helpme2times.

Still more about "Dr." Ben Mack....

In November 2007, Mr. Lakhini wrote a blog,"Ben Mack Deconstructed by Dave Lakhani".

I just did something very dangerous, I deconstructed a friend. Frankly, I'm not sure how things will turn out as a result of this but I did it because he is so misunderstood. And frankly, that is partly his fault. Ben lives out loud, he lives his life as a human experiment.

<snip>

Ben is often criticized for not being understandable, for being too smart and using language that people don't understand. He is also often seen as caustic and confrontational.

Hmmmm.

Some things that stood out for me in the Ben Mack video....

-Mack says that his mom actually had him do the controversial EST training.... WHEN HE WAS ONLY 8 YEARS OLD.

-When the video reaches the 35:01 mark (you can move the lever ahead to that point), things get rather dramatic. Mr. Mack says:

"Being called insane used to freak me more than it does presently.... because I was hospitalized. And I had a doctor look at me and say 'You are paranoid schizophrenic'." (Although Mack claims the doctor later said it was a mistake.)

-Around 51:44 minutes, Mr. Mack says:

"When I tried playing nice, when I tried being politically correct, when I tried suppressing my observations, um, I had to go back on medications. I had to see a psychiatrist. I began seeing flashes of color....."

"I see what I see" [CRYING] "I see what I see" [CRYING] "and I think that people are DICKS [emphasized] for telling me to keep it to myself."

Here is a link to the video:

[[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757990819784402795#]video.google.com[/url]]