Thanks to all who posted in response to Dave Lakhani, especially The Anticult. I just sat and read the entire thread! Every post and rebuttal by Dave made me feel like I had been punched in the gut and I got an instant headache reading him (I started to skim his responses because of this). SOO glad to have all of you here to refute and challenge these guys on a playing field where they can't control the "marketing message" that goes out, take down the forums, or influence anyone in a shadowy way!

'One can't believe anything they say, due to the constant stream of bullshit.'

Way too many red flags already exposed for me. I did buy both Lakhani books (second-hand from Amazon, where they will be returned) and tried reading both of them. I have to agree with The Anticult that there is nothing of value in the books that cannot be learned from more reputable sources.
My conclusion is that this is purely a sales operation centred around the teaching of highly dubious and manipulative sales practices. The application of these practices in large groups has been extensively covered on this board and the results for some participants, eg the James Ray deaths, have been disastrous in the extreme.

I think the issue of 'intent' determining whether such practices are manipulation or 'just persuasion' is of enormous importance and cannot be fudged in any way.

It is quite simply a self-serving rationalisation to declare that "my intent is good and therefore the practices are legitimate and acceptable." It completely overlooks the effect of the practices on the other party--who is unaware of the use of the practices and cannot defend against them.

I've been doing a lot of reading around the use of coercive persuasion by the military and law enforcement agencies, where the same techniques are applied in interrogation and came across this gem from the CIA:

CIA Human Resources Exploitation

It's an eye-opening document itself but clearly states at point H18/6:
'Any confusion concerning the purpose of the "questioning" or the belief that the purpose will take shape after the "questioning" is underway is almost certain to lead to aimlessness and failure'

"Questioning" in this context refers to interrogation and is itself a euphemism, the quotes are in the original document. The principles are uncannily similar to those used by the covert persuaders, hardly surprising since it is all based on the same psychological research findings.
So for the recipient of this persuasion, the supposed 'good intention' of the persuader is far too wooly a concept to be of use. And I think we can be sure that no-one will put in such an extensive effort to persuade without very clear intent as to the expected end result.

The question to ask oneself is 'what is my intent in this and how does my intent differ from the perceived intent of the persuader?'
To defend against this manipulation I have to be at least as clear and unwavering in my own intent as the persuader is in his.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 08:42PM by Stoic.

Whenever a person is dealing with a PROFESSIONAL persuader, one who does it for a living, one has to be extremely careful.
If your gut is acting up, or you are getting a headache, or getting dizzy, confused, dissociated, anxious, or even super-excited and manic, those are signals of self-protection and warning.
This is because the professional persuader is targeting and affecting your core beliefs and mental concepts, and using emotional manipulation.

This is why these professional persuaders like Byron Katie, spend so much time telling you...RELAX, don't be afraid...be like a vase of flowers...be open to change...surrender...

Other professional persuaders say:
...don't worry, you are perfectly safe...I am on your side...trust me...I drink beer just like you with my marketing buddies...I am not doing what you think I am doing...I am your good friend who has only Good Intentions...
...but if you don't think as I order you to think I will THREATEN to send my people after you, and yes that is meant to be perceived as a THREAT, I am a dangerous person, as I used to be covert CIA behind the iron curtain. (actually, it was covert security at the local mall).
...But I am your friend...you are perfectly safe, and I am on your side, as long as you think as I tell you to think. Now sign this document at my seminar which forbids you from criticizing me or my seminars, or talking about it.


Carrot and stick, pain-pleasure, threats and love-bombs.
Standard operating procedure.

Quote
Breva
Thanks to all who posted in response to Dave Lakhani, especially The Anticult. I just sat and read the entire thread! Every post and rebuttal by Dave made me feel like I had been punched in the gut and I got an instant headache reading him (I started to skim his responses because of this). SOO glad to have all of you here to refute and challenge these guys on a playing field where they can't control the "marketing message" that goes out, take down the forums, or influence anyone in a shadowy way!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2010 04:06AM by The Anticult.

'If your gut is acting up, or you are getting a headache, or getting dizzy, confused, dissociated, anxious, or even super-excited and manic, those are signals of self-protection and warning.
This is because the professional persuader is targeting and affecting your core beliefs and mental concepts, and using emotional manipulation.'

Yes indeedy. Something I had to learn step by step was trusting the gut feelings.
A beginning of successful manipulation comes from teaching a person to distrust their own gut feelings and put trust instead in an external authority, who naturally has 'good intentions' and 'wants only the best for us'

A lot of confusion is then self-generated with the conflict between what the gut feelings are saying and what the external authority is saying.
With my cult background, I was an adult long before it occurred to me that the gut feelings had a very important purpose and that just as I have self-serving purposes for myself so does every other person, including those wishing to position themselves as experts and authorities----in anything.

When dealing with manipulators and persuaders, those self-serving purposes must be utilised for self-protection.

"I've wasted all the time I intend to with people who apparently limit their experience to a forum where they can be anonymous rather than actually doing something to make the world a better place." says Mr. Lakhani

typical, as soon as you don't get your own way, or people don't agree wity you, you "bad-mouth" them = "rather than" do "something to make the world a better place"...oh please!!!

Just a follow-up on the ridiculous and embarrassing attempts at intimidation and threats made earlier in this thread by Dave Lakhani, about the so-called "torrents".

Dave Lakhani is very experienced on the internets, as can be seen in their advanced web marketing strategies and many websites.

So of course he knows perfectly well that no files are posted.
He would have also clearly read that the suggestion was to NOT download or buy any of those materials, as they are too many covert manipulative tactics at play in them.
This thread is about cult education, research, and analysis.

He made a SUGGESTION that torrents appeared after it was suggested in these threads that they be uploaded. That is actually a deliberate double-disinformation. Its applied propaganda, with the emphasis on app-LIED.
Of course no torrents were suggested from these threads, and none appeared due to these threads.
That is a hard fact, that anyone can check.

A simple Google search for:

torrent "dave lakhani"

will show that there are hundreds of torrent links on the internet, and they have been there for YEARS.
Of course he would know about all of them for years, as they have Google alerts for their names, and know when anything about them is said online.

So why the obvious deliberate disinformation, combined with threats and attempts at intimidation? Clearly as a tactic to attempt to use random threats to try and FRIGHTEN and silence those who are analyzing the material and the tactics being used.
That is the identical tactic that has been seen 100x in these threads, from those who think they are above being analyzed and subjected to critical thinking.

Its like in the Kevin Hogan seminars, which feature Dave Lakhani. [forum.culteducation.com]
They tell people they will be "bound to secrecy" due to alleged "trade secrets"?
That is obviously bogus nonsense.
They are just doing the exact same techniques that every other LGAT does, to try and keep the tactics of the seminar secret, as then the techniques work better on people.
It appears those folks will have to sign some kind of gag-order release waiver, and if you speak up about what went on, then guess what? More threats and intimidation.


And notice that Dave Lakhani calls those who are analyzing his methods "spineless", which is another attempt to do a turnaround on people.
In fact, who is the spineless one?

Why won't he confirm who allegedly certified him as an NLP Master Practitioner?
Did he get certified, or not? Is it true, or is it bullshit?
Talk about spineless, by not backing up the claims made in marketing all over the internet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2010 05:44AM by The Anticult.

yep Anticult.
it is a neverending job to remain vigilent and expose these "sociapaths" who prey on the mental frailties of others...i have been away for awhile, but thanks for your continueing work here.

The Shad

'He made a SUGGESTION that torrents appeared after it was suggested in these threads that they be uploaded. That is actually a deliberate double-disinformation. Its applied propaganda, with the emphasis on app-LIED.'

I think that became obvious from the minute he mentioned the torrents, he was unwilling to reread what was actually posted and continued to belabour the point that served him.
I am prepared to concede that anyone can make a mistake or misread a point but when he refuses to recheck the data?......alarm bells, red flags, gut feelings.

The word "con man" is short for "confidence man." Wikipedia's article on the confidence trick is pretty interesting: [en.wikipedia.org]

QUOTE: "A confidence trick or confidence game (also known as a bunko, con, flim flam, gaffle, grift, hustle, scam, scheme, swindle or bamboozle) is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence. The victim is known as the mark, the trickster is called a confidence man, con man, or con artist, and any accomplices are known as shills. ... Confidence tricks exploit typical human qualities such as greed, dishonesty, vanity, honesty, compassion, credulity and naïveté. The common factor is that the mark relies on the good faith of the con artist."

Whenever someone charismatic says some variation of "trust me" and your gut doesn't feel right, get the hell out of there.

Quote
The Anticult
Whenever a person is dealing with a PROFESSIONAL persuader, one who does it for a living, one has to be extremely careful.
If your gut is acting up, or you are getting a headache, or getting dizzy, confused, dissociated, anxious, or even super-excited and manic, those are signals of self-protection and warning.
This is because the professional persuader is targeting and affecting your core beliefs and mental concepts, and using emotional manipulation.

This is why these professional persuaders like Byron Katie, spend so much time telling you...RELAX, don't be afraid...be like a vase of flowers...be open to change...surrender...

Other professional persuaders say:
...don't worry, you are perfectly safe...I am on your side...trust me...I drink beer just like you with my marketing buddies...I am not doing what you think I am doing...I am your good friend who has only Good Intentions...
...but if you don't think as I order you to think I will THREATEN to send my people after you, and yes that is meant to be perceived as a THREAT, I am a dangerous person, as I used to be covert CIA behind the iron curtain. (actually, it was covert security at the local mall).
...But I am your friend...you are perfectly safe, and I am on your side, as long as you think as I tell you to think. Now sign this document at my seminar which forbids you from criticizing me or my seminars, or talking about it.


Carrot and stick, pain-pleasure, threats and love-bombs.
Standard operating procedure.

Kevin Hogan keeps popping up in connection with Dave Lakhani.

(Those two just love to give each other 5-star reviews on Amazon.)

Hogan is holding an "Influence: Boot Camp" on March 10-13, 2010 in Las Vegas, and Lakhani is speaking there.

The website is LOADED with info. Very confusing to try and take it all in.

[[url=http://www.kevinhogan.com/]www.kevinhogan.com[/url]]

Price tag for the "Boot Camp"? It is $3997. That's nearly FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS, for just a 4-day seminar, folks.

Oh wait, if you register today, it's $1,997.

Even with the lower rate, that is just about TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS. For 4 days.

Kevin Hogan:
"Look, there's a million reasons to be at Influence: Boot Camp 2010, but your brain will try and come up with reasons not to go... it has to... that's how brains work... and it's a good thing."

NO.

It's NOT a good thing to disregard YOUR OWN BRAIN with its wonderful thinking apparatus. It's a trick to say that what your brain does is a good thing and then go on to try and dissuade you from it.

I don't think it's a good thing to disregard your brain when you're being BOMBARDED with a slick SALES PITCH.

And it's called BOOT CAMP. It could get rough in there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2010 08:22AM by helpme2times.