Many years ago I was attending a training in some fairly high level NLP and Hypnosis.

The instructor, who is very well known, mentioned this guy who was using these types of techniques to seduce women and have sex with them.

I was young, single and thus intrigued! and so I began my journey in to the bizarre underworld that is "the seduction community"

The mans name was Ross Jeffries. Early techniques involve "patterning" a woman, to play her emotions like a musical instrument and to manipulate her hopes and fears and core values to place her in a state of abandoning her critical faculty, opening her up for sex.

These techniques were soundly based on NLP, Psychology, Social Compliance, Confusion, Ericksonian Hypnosis etc.

Just as worrying as the effect on the poor unsuspecting females, who find themselves on the receiving end of these techniques; was the surrounding beliefs that were being passed on to the disciples of these methods. Women were viewed as targets to be "conquered" and then bragged about (often with covert photography) in shady newsgroups across the web.

After Ross Jeffries came many others (such as his student David DeAngelo) all with their own take and spin on this seduction material.

To be fair, the morality of these PUA "Gurus" ranged vastly from, some pretense at being ethical to, absolutely no morality at all. Some even seemed to have contempt for their female targets.

In 2005 Neil Strauss wrote his book "The Game" which exposed this underground sub culture of the PUAs

Now this stuff is very big business. Pick Up "gurus" prey upon vulnerable damaged young men, selling them very expensive courses that offer sex and power and these students are then transformed in to strangely dressed clones with a strange look in their eye, speaking in creepy monotones, stalking nightclubs and bars all across the world.

Students use aliases and meet up with other disciples via newsgroups to hunt in packs, sharing techniques and victims.

I met up with some of these from my local "lair" and after a while saw some very damaged people who had lost any reference point with reality, justifying their lack of morality with a reductionist doctrine (often based on Richard Dawkins type ideas) these people literally became addicted to the courses and forums sold to them by smiling charismatic "Svengali" figures.

Some of the better known players in "The Game" are: (Often these "Gurus" use aliases)

Mystery
[www.lovesystems.com]

Juggler
[www.charismaarts.com]

Lance Mason
[www.pickup101.com]

Tyler Durden
[www.realsocialdynamics.com]

And there are now many many others.

A general feel for this type of material can be found at:

[www.fastseduction.com]

There is no doubt in my mind that this phenomena has cult type aspects and is damaging to both hunter and hunted.

I am curious.

I have personally met one woman who was damaged by someone trained this way, any more out there ?

Or were you sucked in by the promise of sex and power. Did your view of morality and reality come out unscathed?

People should definately be aware this is out there.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2009 04:10AM by sparrow.

sparrow:

Your post is right on the money.
Since you know about the NLP-hypnosis stuff, have a look into the other threads on Byron Katie, to see many similar techniques being used on people. Byron Katie is also doing a type of "seduction", using many of the same methods, mainly to extract money.

Abusing those same technniques to be a so-called pick-up artist, really has at least 2 levels of exploitation.

The first of course, are those people who are manipulated, seduced and lied to.

And as mentioned above, many of the messed-up desperate young men (aka "losers") are also exploited by those Gurus and sold expensive seminars, that don't work. They are the Patsies who spend thousands.
And the Guru's have their shills who lie and sell for them. Same as the LGAT's.

Its really the same as the LGAT scam. They make a huge promise, a Big Claim.
They then sell expensive seminars and products, that don't work.
Then the guys who are "losers" come back for more seminars.
(the Gurus use their shills to make all sorts of false claims about their techniques of course)

But with this stuff, even if it DID work, then its really just about manipulating and exploiting others. Learning how to be a user.
They have taken the techniques that were being used in Sales, and transfering them to personal relationships.

The only thing "positive" about this, is that 99% of the people do not have the ability to use these types of techniques very well, so with a basic knowledge of them, its easy to spot.
Even most professional salespeople aren't able to use these techniques very well either.
It ain't easy.

So that is also the excuse the Gurus use...you didn't do the techniques right! You need another $5,000 seminar! More DVD's...
more "coaching".

you dont need any fancy techniques to do any of that

your falling for all the marketing hype


Geez


plus Nlp is a fake science, it doesn't hold with science, its as effective as psychic powers...



dont fall for the hype

Hi Anticult,

Yup I agreee with you there.

Many of those who hang around the seduction community can't use these techniques (or not very well) and so luckily are damaging only themselves.

Unfortunately some who persist with it, do get rather good at it, and then they are not only damaging themselves but their victims as well. Its these ones that get good that then start assisting on the seminars of those higher up the food chain.

Then in the manner of all pyramid sales models, they then make up their own "method" and start selling it to more "newbies" and thus the cycle repeats itself.............

Amazingly until I popped in to this forum I had never heard of Byron Katie! I am not sure how I could have missed this material. Maybe my eye just slid past such nonsense in my local bookshop.

I have started to read the thread but it may take me a while to read the 200+ pages !! :-) I have checked out some of the clips of BK on youtube and I have spotted some things that are worrying to me as a therapist. I will comment on that in the BK thread once I have read a bit more of it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2009 08:07PM by sparrow.

Hi Sparrow, to get to the juicy stuff, do a search of the message board and run searches for 'all dates'.


Use 'continuing education module'

and that will give you some stuff

Do a search on 'fiduciary'

Do a search on 'confidentiality'--on Guruphiliac there is a worrisome report by Arienariadne who attended a BK 9 day event that raises concerns about confidentiality.

THat entire thread rapidly turned into a troll toilet and one participant spoke up asking where the moderator was. No reply. But at least this first hand visitors report is still available. The thread should be read in its entirety--all six pages. It shows how hard it
is to keep a discussion running that is NOT under the control of BK. Too many disruptors show up.

[guruphiliac.lefora.com]

[guruphiliac.lefora.com]

Do a search on 'aikido handshake'

It appears that in some states, including California, someone has been snoozing on the job at regulatory agencies, because someone said that BK stuff can earn a therapist continuing education credits--at least in California.

Some dodgy stuff can be slipped under the CE fence if not enough people are staffing the review boards.

And if you are licensed as a therapist, remember BK is not licensed. If a licensed therapist uses BK stuff and a client is harmed, BK isnt liable, but the therapist might be.

If BK really wanted to take responsiblity for her work, she'd do what thousands of therapists do without any whining or complaining--she'd use her energy to go to an academically accredited clinical program, do the mandated number of hours of supervised therapy, take and pass the tests needed for licensure, and carry malpractice insurance.

And unlike real therapists, she'd not be prattling about her marriage and private life and her illnesses. That undermines the boundaries needed for real therapy to take place.

yes, sparrow,

Its true that there are some who do get very good at those techniques, and do run around hurting many many people. Its probably the same pattern as with other areas, in that the most predatory and sociopathic, rise to the top, and do victimize and harm a lot of people.
Then as you say, they also turn to making money using the same techniques. Probably a lot of professional salespeople get obsessed with it, and study it all day everyday, and use it at work, and not just in bars, or on the street.

As far as Byron Katie, its all very complex. She is not only doing the hypnotherapy stuff, but many other techniques as well, and has customized them in her own way. Her skill level is very high. But of course, she says she is not a therapist, and is not doing group therapy. Of course, that is a loophole exploited by many. Its quite complex what is going on.



also, the comment above about NLP tech being fake-hype, its much more complex that that. Yes, the seduction guru's are bald-faced liars, and some of them make a lot of money by exaggerating their claims with ridiculous lies.
But on the other hand, the advanced NLP based persuasion tech, do work. That is a fact. Look at the bank accounts of the experts. When you see countless people hand-over tens of thousands of dollars, and hundreds of thousands, then that is called reality.
But its very complex what is really going on.

Quote
The Anticult
yes, sparrow,

Its true that there are some who do get very good at those techniques, and do run around hurting many many people. Its probably the same pattern as with other areas, in that the most predatory and sociopathic, rise to the top, and do victimize and harm a lot of people.
Then as you say, they also turn to making money using the same techniques. Probably a lot of professional salespeople get obsessed with it, and study it all day everyday, and use it at work, and not just in bars, or on the street.

As far as Byron Katie, its all very complex. She is not only doing the hypnotherapy stuff, but many other techniques as well, and has customized them in her own way. Her skill level is very high. But of course, she says she is not a therapist, and is not doing group therapy. Of course, that is a loophole exploited by many. Its quite complex what is going on.



also, the comment above about NLP tech being fake-hype, its much more complex that that. Yes, the seduction guru's are bald-faced liars, and some of them make a lot of money by exaggerating their claims with ridiculous lies.
But on the other hand, the advanced NLP based persuasion tech, do work. That is a fact. Look at the bank accounts of the experts. When you see countless people hand-over tens of thousands of dollars, and hundreds of thousands, then that is called reality.
But its very complex what is really going on.

houndreds of thousands make it a reality???


if its a million people and they are wrong, then its false

nlp has gone several testing, and it has failed,

you are falling for the hype...


[donaldclarkplanb.blogspot.com]

there have been different tests...

Just to make sure the point is clear.
Yes, the claims made by many NLPers are grossly exaggerated, so they can charge more money.
[www.skepdic.com]
But, there are advanced practioners, who are highly skilled in using NLP-based techniques in sales and persuasion. That is just reality.
One could list dozens of experts who use those techniques to make a fortune.

Now, what is precisely going on, is not easy to figure out.

And no one should be duped into taking expensive NLP training.
The eye-accessing cues, are certainly bogus.

But there is a lot more to "NLP" than that, and things have been modified, and now use a lot of hypnotherapy techniques, which are really just suggestion.
The real troubling part about NLP and what has come after it, are the persuasion techniques they have codified.
Most psychologists have no idea about anything concerning SALES in the real world. They are criticizing other aspects of NLP, which is fine.
NLP is criticized here at SkepDic. [www.skepdic.com]


But it is a horrendous error to simply claim NLP is a "scam", as that is almost meaningless. Maybe the content is dubious, but they are always running meta-level patterns at the same time. Most people have no idea of what those are. Especially psychologists.
For that aspect, people need to listen to very advanced professional salespeople and group persuaders.

Quote
The Anticult
But it is a horrendous error to simply claim NLP is a "scam", as that is almost meaningless. Maybe the content is dubious, but they are always running meta-level patterns at the same time.

I'd certainly like to know more about "meta-level patterns. Dr. Google didn't have much to say, and I couldn't tell who was reliable, anyway.

yeah, just dropped that in there. Its not something that can be explained in a few words.
There are all sorts of "meta-levels" and meta-patterns they get into in NLP.

In one way, it can be the difference between "content" and meta-level processes being done at the same time.
So the content can be anything, as in any subject on earth, like a subject in a class.

But the Meta-level, might be the processes/structure that are occuring that have nothing to do with that content, like the social influence techniques being used.

Just a note to anyone reading, please do not buy anything from anyone in the NLP field, there are too many rip-off artists at work. The library has books, and that is enough to start.


Search Google for these:

nlp meta-level

nlp meta-patterns