Quote
sparrow

Quote
Carlos B
(yes modelling does have its flaws and areas where it does not work but most of the time its extremely useful)

Right, so this is where you get to be like Einstein - by modelling his behaviour and becoming a great mathematician. Grow up sparrow and please realise you are talking to adults.

I am not a specialist and most of what you are rambling about is just so familiar because it's either common sense or available in a multitude of pop-psychology books.

Also - sparrow, please tell us how long your NLP course lasted - just how many weeks did you need to get your qualification?

Carlos there is no need to be offensive or patronising. You asked me to explain what I meant by "keeping the good bits" I have succinctly explained the theory behind NLP modelling and how NLP developed in terms of its various historical influences.

If you dont like NLP then fine, thats your opinion. I personally do not like the way it has gone in terms of marketting, dumbing down the training and the vastly inflated pricing for training these days.

I also clearly stated that modelling has its flaws. (as in your quote above) Your Einstein example would be a good example as his genius was a product of probably genetic intelligence and his extensive education.

However in fairness part of the NLP modelling process involves accurately deciding whether or not you have the resources to perform the behaviour. Because the model does not work with certain types of skill does not mean that it is not extremely effective for other skills.

What for you might be common sense may not be for everybody on this forum. I suspect there are people from all walks of life on here with vast differences in their level of understanding of this material and their level of education.

After my three year full time degree in Psychology from a top British university, I then took a three year part time course in Psychotherapy that included many different techniques CBT, REBT, Behaviour Therapy, Gestalt, Hypnotherapy, and a few others. It also included a sound grounding in anatomy / physiology and the diagnosis of mental and certain types of physical illness. We trained quite closely with a number of medical doctors so that we knew when to refer a patient on to a Psychiatrist etc

My NLP training consisted of 21 client contact hours over a six month period for practitioner and the same amount of time again for master practitioner. I then did further training to be a NLP psychotherapist (NLP psychotherapy is fully recognised by the UKCP) and indeed, have after this then done what amounts to many months of further NLP training over the last 15 years or so.

Having now practiced as a therapist for 15 years (including working on occasion for the National Health Service) I think my comments on the use and misuse of these techniques have a certain amount of validity.

So Carlos appart from generally attacking something without giving any references to back up your assertations, behaving in a rather bullying fashion and being quite offensive, do you want to thrill us with your extensive experience and qualifications in this area ?

I dont mind at all people disagreeing with me , particularly if they can back up what they are talking about with something, (whether that is personal experience or a scientific reference that they actually understand.)

Well sparrow, I suppose I just don't like people being ripped off by frauds like you. Your NLP training consisted of "21 client contact hours" over a 6 month period!! And the same for a master practitioner!! Wow, 42 hours all together. Less than 6 working days. That's not much for someone who's so enthusiastic about NLP and who so obviously came here to promote her NLP practice. You claim to have practised for 15 years as a therapist - very hard to believe from someone whose arguments are as shallow as yours. What exactly has been your practise "from a top British (but unnamed university)" and where can we verify this?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2009 02:28AM by Carlos B.

Quote
Carlos B
Your NLP training consisted of "21 client contact hours" over a 6 month period

Sorry that should have read 21 contact days

And the top British University with contact details was which one?

Carlos:

why are you taking this thread off-topic, which is..."The Game" "Pickup Artists" and "The Seduction Community"? and how NLP is being used by some of them?

From everything seen so far, "sparrow" is one of the good guys/gals.
Has anyone seen anything about sparrow promoting their NLP practice?? If so, please provide a link.
Sparrow started a thread about its possible misuse, and cultish aspects.

How many people with any training in NLP-hypnotherapy, will even CONSIDER how the NLP methods might be being misused by either pick-up artists, or other New Wage Gurus?
Almost zero.
Either they don't care, or they are trying to get in on the action, and try to create a smokescreen.

There are not that many people with any training or knowledge in this area, so its rare to find someone with some experience, who is even interested in how it relates to scammers, and critical thinking.

So far, "sparrow" is providing some very valuable information about the pickup Gurus using ...
[forum.culteducation.com]
QUOTE: "techniques were soundly based on NLP, Psychology, Social Compliance, Confusion, Ericksonian Hypnosis etc."

That is correct, and Byron Katie and many others are doing the same thing, and most people have no idea.
Many people think NLP went off the rails quite some time ago, and some of the senior people like Bandler, cannot be trusted in their claims, or what they say.

But its a very complex area, and there are very few with any training who are willing to even ask ANY critical questions about NLP. Tony Robbins started doing almost pure NLP material, to the point he had to pay-off some of the NLP guys.

And there are some very "bad" sales NLPers out there, who are ruthless, and extract huge amounts of money from vulnerable people. That is a fact.
But unfortunately, its a very complex area.

Hopefully, "sparrow" will continue to make posts in various threads, as these exact techniques have moved into the culty and new age "spiritual" arena.
And some senior NLPers who have been in the game for 30 years have gone with them. That is where the serious money is now.

The Anticult - and when someone claims an accredtation from a university but won't say which university it was, or provide a reference, don't alarm bells ring?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2009 03:53AM by Carlos B.

I would suggest you read around the subject of how peoples beliefs and values and behaviour can be changed by these types of technique (which after all is surely one of the underlying presuppositions of the RR forums) '

I don't see why sparrow has to provide his exact credentials in an anonymous forum. Nobody else is providing theirs.

He has provided some good reference material and although I am fairly convinced that beliefs values and behaviour can to some extent be changed by certain techniques--I've done a lot of that on myself--I will be tracking down and reading up on some of the reference material he has provided.

Hi, Thank you Anticult for your comments.

With regards the history of NLP training. I believe Bandler and Grinder started of doing 10 day trainings in the early material in the 1970's. Then, so I heard, they later set the standard to being 21 days for "practitioner" training. This I believe was so that the psychology / therapy students could use the course as an accreditation towards their final qualifications. (courses had to be at least 21 days for this purpose) and because the material was growing so 10 days was not enough.

Originally to become a "master practitioner" you did the original 21 day "practitioner" training again and became more proficient in it. As the original material was added to and more and more developments occured in the NLP field, the courses ended up having seperate material on each. Now as NLP has grown massively over the last 30 years or so, the original material has been squashed by the newer stuff and in my opinion not enough time is spent on the fundamentals.

The fundamentals used to come under the headings "the four pillars of NLP" sensory acuity, rapport, outcome orientation and behavioural flexability. To my mind rapport and sensory acuity are absolutely key and you can do a lot with those alone. This very much ties in with Stoics earlier comments about the state of trust between therapist and client.

In the UK we used to have one organisation that validated trainings and regulated the NLP community (the ANLP) so I did my training under this system (42 days) I trained with a very respected therapist and on our training we were closely supervised and had to pass an exam. A number of people on my course failed this exam and were not certified, because they did not reach the required standard. The way the training worked was that you did four days full time a month and then went away to practice the material learned on that module, you then came back and discussed your use and practice of the material often having to write up case historys etc. So really each training occured over a six month learning and integration period.

I should point out that being a NLP practitioner or master practitioner does not qualify you on its own to be a psychotherapist or to deal with complex issues. You need a lot more training to do that. (Which I later did)

Then all hell broke loose in the NLP community, Bandler attemped to copyright the term NLP and sue everyone in sight, at about the same time he started doing 7 day practitioner programmes. The ANLP refused to validate these in the UK (I believe they were correct not to) and you had the bizarre scenario where an NLP organisation refused to recognise certifications given out by NLP's co creator!

Having allready trained in NLP "the old way" I went along and did one of Bandlers 7 day practitioner trainings. To be honest I really wanted to get it from the "horses mouth" so to speak. I found the training very valuable but only because I allready understood the material from my previous training and could watch it being done to the highest degree.

However people on the 7 day course who had no previous training often seemed very confused, there was no examination process, a lot of the time we were told "Oh its in your manual, get together with other students after the course and practice it" I enjoyed the course from my perspective but I would never send anyone to a practitioner who had been trained this way. It also involved signing some bizarre copyright license agreement about the use of NLP (TM) to be honest you could have turned up on the first day and signed the register and then turned up at the end and you would have been given a flash certificate signed by Bandler "qualifying" you as a practitioner.

I really didnt like this.

Its akin to the "Hypnotherapy" certificate I once received from Tad James after 2 days training that qualified me as part of the American Board of Hypnotherapy! Puhleeze!

(I did later properly train in Hypnotherapy)

Carlos, I started this thread, as stated in the title, to warn people about the dangers of "the seduction community" both in terms of the (mainly) women on the receiving end and the vulnerable (mainly) young men who are sucked in by the "Gurus" and to find out what others experiences were.


I thought this forum would be a good place as quite a lot of people on here have had contact with "cults" or damaging movements/individuals and are as such particularly vulnerable. Its quite common to see people going from one thing to another "hey landmark didnt work but whats this seduction course"


I believe my extensive knowledge of these techniques can not only help people spot them (and thus not fall for them) but can also help clarify some of the absolute nonsense that is spouted about them both in terms of those attacking them and those selling them.

I would like to clarify that I am not interested in selling anything.
I have no wish to make personal contact with anyone on this forum other than by my public posts.
If you look at the forum rules at the top right of your screen it says quite clearly that users of the forum have a right to anonymity. Indeed it says that you are actually not allowed to post contact information without the moderators permission. (I have no wish to do this)


The only way I could prove my academic qualifications would be to post my full real name, the name of my university, the name of my college and my year of graduation. From this it would be possible to get a hell of a lot of other information about me. I allready have enough fruitcakes ringing me up with bizarre requests as it is!
This would also quite possibly lead to repercussions in my private and professional life, and to be honest (no offence guys) I dont want to publicly be known as the "heretic" spilling the beans on the weird cult site.

Carlos I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else on this forum. If you can enter in to a rational, informed, polite discussion of these issues and actually back up you assertations with something, then I will happily reply to your posts. If you are going to degrade the standard of conversation to infantile, unprovoked schoolyard attacks and name calling then I wont even bother acknowledging you.

I will spend my valuable time instead interacting with those who actually bring something useful and meaningful to the discussion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2009 07:18AM by sparrow.

I am sure members of this forum are familiar with this, but if not, a very accessable book is:

Robert B Cialdini "The psychology of influence" (rev ed. 1998)

Also with regard to cold reading a very good read (a bit more full on) is:

P. Ekman "Telling Lies" (rev ed. 2002)

These both illustrate certain techniques used within the seduction community, by BK and many of the other LGATs mentioned.

sparrow, I am really enjoying your comments and information.

I am also very glad that you've raised the issue of these predatory "I can get you laid" guys. This area is booming -- I know because a very sensible, intelligent, educated, yet sadly hard-luck-with-the-ladies friend of mine bought a book about it.

Thank God, the book was more an advertisement for why people need to stay away from this crap than anything else, but the fact that my friend thought for even a moment that these PUA losers had something viable to offer shocked all of us.

Maybe if this thread had been here then we wouldn't all be laughing at him now for wasting his money; on a more serious note, I think that book was a bestseller, which means a lot of people need to be warned.

Carlos B, am I missing something? sparrow (who I thought was a guy, though I don't know and it doesn't matter) is raising some very important issues and doesn't seem to be here to shill.

I'm all for taking a very hard line with dishonest people who come this forum with some strange agenda, but I don't see that sparrow has crossed any lines or done anything to arouse an angry response. (You want to meet some real pieces of work, check out the big Katie/Tolle thread. The characters who show up there could have their own special episode of Cops or Dog the Bounty Hunter or any other show that deals with people who try to get away with things and then invent painfully pathetic yet oddly compelling excuses when they get called out.)

Do you see something I don't?

Quote
Carlos B
The Anticult - and when someone claims an accredtation from a university but won't say which university it was, or provide a reference, don't alarm bells ring?

Yes, if they did it one a website, selling their stuff.

But I just don't see the problem here.
Sparrow is the one who brought up the potential problems, as mentioned.



As far as a guy like Ross Jeffries, after looking into it a bit, its highly possible he doesn't know or even care if what he sells "works".
That is a good example of Content vs Process.
It basically looks like he thought of a product to sell to desperate men, that is why he calls it FAST seduction. They are DESPERATE, and he knows it.

Lets be blunt here.
He knows desperate men spend a fortune trying to get women, either by dating, or many just pay for it one way or another. So there is a huge MARKET for a business.

The men have a NEED, and he sells products he tells them will fill that need, so they buy it.
If it doesn't work, then even better, repeat business.

And if it "works" what is working? Maybe the course teaches people to walk up to people and start talking. That will get better results than sitting in a corner.

Again, it would take a lot of study, but even a quick review, show the Pick-Up Guru's are raging super-salesmen scammers. Some of them are making a killing, and they get their shills to lie through their teeth for them. Its very obvious.

If anyone is using the advanced persuasion techniques, the Guru's are using it on the chumps.
It does seem that much of the real NLP-persuasion action is man-on-man.

They are running all-male LGAT seminars.
It sounds similar to these other Men's Groups where there are all sorts of complaints, like Sterling?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2009 10:41AM by The Anticult.