Quote
Christa
..I just can't bring myself to believe this sort of nasty manipulation is really going on.

The guy in the clip was dorky and unattractive, and if a strange man plopped himself down that close to me while I was out with a girlfriend I'd like to think my defenses would shoot right up to high alert, but I honestly don't know.
IOW, this is not a guy I would automatically hand a crutch to. That fact upsets me.

To anyone who reads this, this type of manipulation is going on. Its not a belief, its a fact of reality.
Like as has been said in the Byron Katie thread, this stuff is real. They are not making millions of dollars for no reason, and its the exact same techniques being used, just used in a different style.
The fact that a guy is a tool is beside the point, as a matter of fact, it makes him more non-threatening.
That is why the new anti-Guru's with wide-smiles, or who seem nerdy and understated, are actually worse than the aggressive salespeople.

But the techniques do NOT work on 100% of the people. Those guys are pretty sneaky, and they could have checked around before to try and find someone with a high suggestibility. There are people who easily go into trance-states, and these are the people who the LGAT guru's target.
They could also set-up elaborate staged situations using someone they have previously put into trance-states. For example, everyone in a video would have to sign a release of some sort.

But walking up to strangers, and leading them into a light trance-state using conversation, and then eliciting their "love-attraction" modalities, is NOT hard to do at all.
If a person does learn some of the techniques, they can make all sorts of people feel like they "love" or feel "attraction" to them in short order. That is a fact.
All they do is ask very careful questions, find out how this person structures "love" or "attraction" in their minds, and then press those buttons.
You can also make them feel compelled to give you large financial "gifts", or attend more of your LGAT seminars, or work for you for free, or think you are a Divine Being, etc.

That is exactly what Byron Katie did to Janaki, when she elicited the structure of her "love" for her Guru Muktananda with extensive questions. She then simply just transfered that to herself.

Janaki's conversion to Byron Katie, hypnosis [forum.culteducation.com]

None of this can be learned or explained in minutes. To become an expert takes a lot of training, and many years of practice. That is also part of the scam, as they can keep "training" people for years.

The ironic thing, is that these pick-up guru's, some of them, could be providing some information that the other NLP-hypnosis experts like Stever Robbins & Friends are actively trying to conceal from people, by playing innocent. (It really is pathetic, slimey and cowardly to do that, never mind beyond unethical).
Of course, one has to change the context a bit, and sort through the lies they are putting in there for advertising.
But the basic techniques are from the same foundation that "sparrow" has so wisely pointed out thus far.

This could actually be an excellent way for people who are getting scammed by LGAT Guru's to find out what is being done to them.
Also, these techniques are NOT going to work, if the target is trained in the same techniques, because you notice the techniques, and then it backfires.
But how many people on the street have even heard of any of it? Almost zero.

'THis is the only clip I've watched so far, and it scared me.'

Christa,
I've only taken a quite amateur interest in hypnosis (apart from meditation/self-hypnosis), I'm sure sparrow and Anticult can break down what happened much better than I but this is what I saw:
The fact that the guys looked dorky is a plus as the guard is lowered.
Louis spoke first to the women, distracting one of them.

Jeffries? immediately moved into her personal space, taking advantage of the distraction and became directive, took control and began the induction.
He used the phrases 'vivid imagery' 'Look at me' (with hand gestures to his eyes) 'million miles away' and some guff about being on a beach--all helpful in establishing trance.

There was a cut in the film and then Jeffries was at pains to mention that they were having a conversation--normally a two-way event--but the woman was a passive, completely receptive part of the 'conversation'.
However the woman agreed that it was a conversation, essentially accepting some responsibility for what had occurred although Jeffries was totally in control. He got her to agree to a date for coffee and that touch up her arm was quite a heavy deepening of the trance. It was a move with paradoxical overtones also, which always generates longterm confusion.

I doubt this was staged, Louis trades on his faux-naif personality to get his interviewees to open up, he has a reputation for not staging his interviews as his approach works well with most people.
Jeffries could have staged it, setting it up earlier but as he admitted, he had previously scouted and used the place and the time as being a good bet for catching women off their guard. I doubt he needed to stage it.

Be careful out there.

Thanks, everyone. Stoic, your explanation was very helpful. I looked at the video again and think you're right. I'll add that there was something about that woman that seemed particularly submissive, but maybe that was one of the effects of the trance, or the very reason Jeffries picked her out.

I've now watched all of the videos sparrow listed, as well as many Ross Jeffries videos. To me, he is by far the scariest and most manipulative. When I was half-listening to one of his videos while reading in another browser tab, he said "take a deep breath" and I did it! That unnerved me.

He also seems like an angry guy who hates women. And in his most recent videos he's like the picture of Dorian Gray. He looks incredible dissipated and burned-out. But he's smart, so that might be some kind of marketing angle.

What saddens me is that the students I saw in the videos appeared to have a genuine desire to get better at something they're not good at, and seemed like good guys. My friend who bought Neil Strauss's book is a truly fine person who's just awkward with women.

I admire people who have the guts to admit they don't know something or don't do something that well, and then try to find teachers to help them.

So it's sad that these PUA slimeballs are the "teachers" they find. LGATS present the same problem. The attendees are usually quite sincere, and then they get used by the likes of Byron Katie or Werner Erhard.

Why is it so difficult to find honest teachers? I sure didn't go looking to be abused by a sociopathic cult leader when I wound up in a cult, but that's what happened, and one of the hardest things for me in recovery was realizing that my best instincts and talents were precisely the ones that were manipulated.

I don't like what most of these PUAs are telling men about women and relationships, it doesn't seem true or accurate, and if this is what men are learning, no wonder so many relationships are in the state they're in.

This is a really terrific thread, but it's getting pretty grim. Here's a link to a spoof video featuring Paul Rudd that totally cracked me up. He plays a PUA based on Mystery ("step up to get your rep up, dude!")

[www.mydamnchannel.com]

Quote
Stoic
I then watched this clip which I think is Jeffries with a better personal image, demonstrating his technique to Louis Theroux. This doesn't look at all staged to me and the induction is quite slick. I assume there is a post-hypnotic suggestion planted for the girl seems to follow the two men the way a lost duckling will follow any moving object.
pick-up in action

A couple more points about this.
If anyone can find a TRANSCRIPT of what Ross Jeffries said to the girl, what he did with his language patterns can be PRECISELY described. But to be honest, looking at that creep, its too much to even watch that charade again. Its all very sad and pathetic, how low the old NLP-hypno-persuaders have sunk with this.


But its not staged.
But Ross Jeffries did pick the location, and the guy at the table as the camera arrives, could have been one of Ross Jeffries stooges/assistants. He would just cruise the joint for a few hours, trying to find people who are Suggestible and open.
And then he would watch for the camera, and go to the Target's table to show Ross Jeffries a good "mark" who is suggestible.
That girl could have been put into a light trance by an amateur in seconds.

But that is not even needed, an expert can tell in seconds who is "open" and suggestible.

But Ross Jeffries just walks up to her, and using verbal commands and a rapid induction, elicits and gets her to re-experience some of her most pleasurable emotions and memories.
He then would have done a lot more stuff that was not in the clip, to reinforce and bring it out even more.
Then once the emotions and memories are being experienced in her mind, he creates a Trigger and Anchor, this time to his own finger, so he can use the sense of TOUCH later on.
Then running his finger up her arm, he can take that pleasureable feeling from 1-10, pretty much on his command.
(remember how Byron Katie touched Janaki's cheek, same thing).


What is really shocking about this, is that this part is very very basic stuff, that anyone can learn in a day, if they have the aptitude.
It can be done with fake "palm reading", it can be done with storytelling, Tarot Cards, Astrology, anything. It can be done using "Advaita" as the ruse "content".

Its also decades old, and has been in books for decades.
What is shocking, is why is the public so unaware of even the basics of any of this?
If someone could explain that, that would be appreciated.

Once a person has some experience and training, none of that twaddle even works. You see in 5 seconds that some creepy salesperson is trying to elicit the modalities of your most pleasurable life experiences, and then link it to herself, or her product and services.
And you say, hey asshole, why are you trying to elicit my most pleasurable memories and emotions? Screw off.

Even the hyperbole by Louis Theroux at the end, seems very melodramatic.
You could take a hypnotist and find a "Target" and have them dancing like a chicken in the street, that has been known for decades. Especially when a TV CAMERA is there.
Its nothing magical, its just suggestion, and many people just do what is asked of them, without much preparation. Inducing light trance-states just makes it more effective.


So Ross Jeffries is a slime, maniupulating people (women and men) to make money.
But he is actually LESS slimey than many others. At least he ADMITS to SOME of what he is doing.

Hate to bring up Stever Robbins again, but he is far far worse, as he is trying to act naive. Its 100X worse, to have far far more extensive knowledge than little ole Ross Jeffries, and then try to PRETEND it does NOT EXIST, and then refer and send "new age" people into the ruthless hands of experts who are far worse than Ross Jeffries.

They can use those same techniques to anchor into people to feel SUPREME PLEASURE to giving them ALL OF THEIR LIFE-SAVINGS, or their WEDDING RINGS, or anything else. (Read the Byron Katie thread).
They can make you feel like they are a divine being, by activating your "God-Guru" representations in your mind, and then linking them to themselves.
They can elicit how you represent a Soulmate, and link it to them too.
They can also stack, merge, amplify, and constantly reinforce all of these, to the point where they become the center of their subjects mind and life.


So these sociopaths and manipulators do laugh like Ross Jeffries, at how naive and suggestible many people are. They think its funny, and they believe people get what they deserve.
They even lie to themselves, and tell themselves they are doing a service.

But this is why they try so hard to MISDIRECT, and say there is NOTHING GOING ON. Because once people get trained, it doesn't work. You see through it in seconds.
So yes, the sociopaths are wrong to do this to people.

But can anyone shed some light on why so many people don't know anything about even the most basic manipulation tactics like this?
Is it that most people are just regular too-trusting people, and are not used to dancing with the wolves, who present themselves as sheep?
To the trained eye, the question is not why do the sharks do it, its why can't anyone see what is there in plain-sight?

Byron Katie very blatantly uses many of the same techniques on groups and on individuals, and just tries to conceal it behind the new agey pseudo-philosophy.
The people who admit they do some techniques, are not anywhere near as bad, as those who try to pretend nothing is going on. Those one are the most damaging.
And the more they play the idiot savant or try to act naive, the worse they are.

I am familar with this stuff for about 7 years (to make this short).

I think the PUA community has become a exploitive sociopathic industry.

No one is safe. Not your female friends. Not your sisters. Not your mother. Not even yourself, even straight people are being targetted (Not that I have anything against someones sexual orientation or anything).

'Its also decades old, and has been in books for decades.
What is shocking, is why is the public so unaware of even the basics of any of this?
If someone could explain that, that would be appreciated.'

Not claiming to have the definitive answer, but my take on this having questioned it myself, is that we are all socialised, of necessity, in childhood to obey someone who sounds and acts authoritive or who seems to convey conviction in some less direct way. Parents, teachers, policemen etc. Its an unavoidable part of teaching children how to behave amongst others.

That childhood conditioning is what these types try to tap into, the age regression, infantile games, wishful thinking, which is still there to some extent in all of us, no matter how old and crabby and suspicious we become growing up.
Women are probably generally more susceptible to this due to hierarchies of power but I do think it is there in all of us.

Unfortunately the more this susceptibility is denied, the more people are vulnerable to having this childhood conditioning exploited.

'What is shocking, is why is the public so unaware of even the basics of any of this?'


Another reason that so many people do not seem to be aware of this is that watered down versions of these techniques are so commonplace in normal life.
If you look closely at the dynamics of any interaction of power imbalance, i.e. between boss and employee, saleman and customer, parent and child, you will see these techniques used, often unconsciously, to maintain the power imbalance.

There is an old film, 'Gaslight' that dramatises this showing how a dominant husband controls his wife and eventually pushes her to insanity.

gaslight film

Theodore Dorpat used the film title for his book on the way these techniques are used, again often unconsciously, in therapy to allow the therapist to maintain his authoritive position. A book worth reading as it covers the subject of coercive control from a non-sensational perspective

gaslighting

Finally, I found the models of Transactional Analysis useful in trying to see this in action. The simple 3 circle representations of TA ego states can illustrate what happens in a dynamic of power imbalance. If you have two people, (2 sets of the 3 circle model facing each other) the parent state of the would-be dominator is addressing the child state of the dominated one while the dominated one is trying to communicate adult to adult. No possibility there of anything other than confusion and mixed messages.

TA model (scroll down for 3 circle model)

P.S.
The Amazon comments on the Dorpat book are particularly interesting.

An analysis of the current teen trauma vampire movie. It has some relevance to this thread.

"Not Having Time For Games is Itself a Game"

[thelastpsychiatrist.com]

Quote

I know you weren't talking to me, but I have something to tell you"

Anyone other than me ever been 15? You only do that when you want to start being friends. It's a move. He has no ambivalence at all.

Here's another example: he (again) sneaks up behind her-- after eavesdropping, mind you-- and says all broody, "what's in Jacksonville?" and she says, "How did you find out about that?" To which he responds, even more broody, "you didn't answer my question."

Most people's response to him would be to stab him in the eye, who does this jerk think he is? And hence I can see why some audience might see him as a disrespectful misogynist. However, I'm not sure girls are aware of this, but if there are any honest men reading this blog they'll know-- it's also a move. He doesn't actually want to know what's in Jacksonville,-- he just wants to talk to her. He's not annoyed she didn't answer his question; what he wants is to convey the impression of a deep, brooding intellect who doesn't have time for "games." (Not having time for games is itself a game.)

read the whole thing.

Thanks for that Corboy, I will check out that article. Sounds interesting. Anyone watched Antichrist yet? Now there's a cautionary tale for manipulative men trying to play mind games with damaged women! :-) It also confirms my deepest suspicions about the effectiveness of CBT ;-)