Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 31, 2009 03:56AM
The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan is a terrific book.
For those who don't have a local library or used bookstore near, sometimes books like these can be previewed from a PDF copy online from a torrent. That book is out there.
Another way is to go to a chain-bookstore, and one can preview a book.
Along the same lines, most libraries have the old videos, and the new DVD's of Carl Sagan Cosmos TV series. What's fun about his approach is you get the wonder of the universe, without the new age mumbo jumbo.
And the Sagan Baloney Detection Questions are very powerful. [www.xenu.net]
one of the best things from that school of thought, is learn a Tolerance for Ambiguity and uncertainty.
New Age Gurus always have to act like they have all the answers to everything in the universe.
Its ok not to know the answer, and admit it, and enjoy the process of trying to learn.
And all we have to do is demand actual proof for claims being made.
The most basic level is to use the same level of critical thinking for a new age idea, as buying a used car. Are you going to believe what the used car dealer tells you, or bring your own mechanic to check under the hood to verify his claims?
For those who don't have a local library or used bookstore near, sometimes books like these can be previewed from a PDF copy online from a torrent. That book is out there.
Another way is to go to a chain-bookstore, and one can preview a book.
Along the same lines, most libraries have the old videos, and the new DVD's of Carl Sagan Cosmos TV series. What's fun about his approach is you get the wonder of the universe, without the new age mumbo jumbo.
And the Sagan Baloney Detection Questions are very powerful. [www.xenu.net]
one of the best things from that school of thought, is learn a Tolerance for Ambiguity and uncertainty.
New Age Gurus always have to act like they have all the answers to everything in the universe.
Its ok not to know the answer, and admit it, and enjoy the process of trying to learn.
And all we have to do is demand actual proof for claims being made.
The most basic level is to use the same level of critical thinking for a new age idea, as buying a used car. Are you going to believe what the used car dealer tells you, or bring your own mechanic to check under the hood to verify his claims?
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: February 06, 2009 12:51AM
Quote
The most basic level is to use the same level of critical thinking for a new age idea, as buying a used car. Are you going to believe what the used car dealer tells you, or bring your own mechanic to check under the hood to verify his claims?/quote]
Appropriate metaphor, Anticult. I just recently received a brochure, in the mail, that was designed to sell me on the benefits of therapeutic massage. Normally, they'd be preaching to the choir, but in this case they were selling the Reiki version of 'healing massage'. I did the prudent web-search and found no less than 80 pages of links, on Google alone, which praised or sold this 'ancient Japanese secret'. I looked for quite a while, trying new search word combinations, before I found anything objective. What I did find, was similar to what this forum presents in the way of critical thinking. At least two people made clear their concerns over the absence of ANY type of scientific study, empirical data, testing or verification of the very "new-agey" claims. As it turns out, I could find nothing except personal (and very subjective) claims, and those by people who were obviously sold on the idea, anyway. My random readings, of the sites that came up in the search, produced a huge pile of newage terms and phrases interwoven in the sales pitches.
It's more than a little disconcerting, to see so many people becoming sold on what is probably just another flavor of the same old snake-oil. Sagan, in his book, was holding out some hope for the world; I'm not sure I concur, although I'll continue to do what I can.
qd
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
blue sky
()
Date: February 07, 2009 04:40AM
Interesting you should mention Reiki (which by the way is not a form of "massage") because lately I've been doing a lot of research on the subject. Why? I've taken all the courses and am now qualified to be a practitioner and teacher, but the thing is I have mixed feelings about Reiki.
On the plus side, I've personally experienced wonderful things happen whilst I gave Reiki to myself and others, including fending off a looming asthma attack (the feelings I felt in my chest were very real and unlike anything I had experienced before). I also treated someone whose body was reacting badly to something she had eaten the night before and while I was concentrating on her belly area, a sinus issue cleared up -- a condition I didn't know about.
I experienced many good things happen, but that's not my point. I'm not interested in speaking on behalf of Reiki or anything else, I'm interested in the truth. Besides, I can't say with 100 percent certainty that the results were based on my giving Reiki. There is no way of proving it one way or another.
The thing is there were times when Reiki made no difference and other instances where it may have made things worse. After injuring my knee two years ago no amount of Reiki from myself or my partner seemed to make any difference. Also, after asthma attacks if he concentrates the Reiki on my chest area, I start to cough again and before long I'm dealing with another attack. What we're told as Reiki students is that receivers will take in as much energy as they need and that the energy will go to where it's supposed to go and achieve the highest good. So why didn't the Reiki help my knee or my sore chest area after the asthma attacks??
Too many New Agers can be incredibly naive and/or arrogant, whilst blindly following the current party line or something they heard on Oprah or read in a self-help book. They can't seem to deal with uncertainty, much like born again religious zealots. I rarely hear a New Ager admit they don't have the answer. Everything can be explained away with a lot of weaselly mumbo jumbo. The thing is I wanted my knee to get better, so according to New Age thinking, the law of attraction, etc., my knee should have healed. But it didn't. Not until I started seeing a naturopath about my allergies.
I take pride in the fact that I think for myself. I like to base decisions on my own research, my own experiences, values and common sense. I'm also learning more and more to listen to my intuition. But when it came to Reiki, I was far too open minded and far too open to the usual New Age blah blah explanations.
After the first time I received a Reiki treatment I experienced a six-week cold, including lots of asthma attacks. (At that time I only got asthma attacks when I had colds.) I was told by the practitioner (who had years of experience) that healing crises are common and my extreme cold was a more severe than normal reaction. That should have sent bells and gongs going off in my mind.
Something else I find interesting: long before I was trained or experienced actual Reiki treatments, I came across a book on it and gave myself a few experimental sessions. (I didn't try this on anyone else.) I had no idea what to expect when I used the different hand positions and found I became very relaxed and dozed off. Honestly, I don't think I've felt much of a difference since taking all the Reiki classes when giving it to myself.
While I think it's important to be open minded (let's face it MDs don't have all the answers and pharmaceuticals are interested in making profits), people who aren't being helped by regular doctors are vulnerable and searching for answers. They can all too easily be taken advantage of.
The people I've met in the Reiki business tend to be New Age flakes. I personally know of someone who now speaks on behalf of animals -- both dead and alive. Enthusiasm about The Secret and What the Bleep is common amongst the people I've met. I know of another Reiki practitioner who is making prosperity hypnosis tapes. I'm not saying they don't have good intentions, but this is all stuff I have no desire to be a part of.
I used to see Reiki as an honourable way of making a living where I could help animals and their people. I never called myself a healer; I always made a point of saying that I was making no promises to heal, that Reiki could help my client relax and in some instances die more peacefully. (I've helped the dying and their loved ones.)
Like a lot of other New Age practises, there is a lot of money to be made, especially if you teach classes -- something I chose not to do. Even if the person doesn't get better, etc. you're still making good money for your time. I have nothing against someone making a decent living, but it's all about honesty and fairness.
I've also come across information that states that the effects of Reiki haven't been tested. What really attracted my attention was reading on a few discussion boards that for some people it can actually cause harm. This is not something that is ever, ever mentioned amongst Reiki practitioners. Actually, the manta is: "Reiki can do no harm." And if someone gets worse or stays the same, it's because "the person had a vested interest in being ill" or "was resistant to the treatment..."
Seems there are good reasons why my intuition caused me to hesitate about setting up a Reiki practise. I never could figure out why because it was supposed to be a good thing. I've reached a point where I want nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, I wasted all kinds of time and money, and now that I've read that it can cause harm, I really hope I never caused harm to anyone, including myself.
On the plus side, I've personally experienced wonderful things happen whilst I gave Reiki to myself and others, including fending off a looming asthma attack (the feelings I felt in my chest were very real and unlike anything I had experienced before). I also treated someone whose body was reacting badly to something she had eaten the night before and while I was concentrating on her belly area, a sinus issue cleared up -- a condition I didn't know about.
I experienced many good things happen, but that's not my point. I'm not interested in speaking on behalf of Reiki or anything else, I'm interested in the truth. Besides, I can't say with 100 percent certainty that the results were based on my giving Reiki. There is no way of proving it one way or another.
The thing is there were times when Reiki made no difference and other instances where it may have made things worse. After injuring my knee two years ago no amount of Reiki from myself or my partner seemed to make any difference. Also, after asthma attacks if he concentrates the Reiki on my chest area, I start to cough again and before long I'm dealing with another attack. What we're told as Reiki students is that receivers will take in as much energy as they need and that the energy will go to where it's supposed to go and achieve the highest good. So why didn't the Reiki help my knee or my sore chest area after the asthma attacks??
Too many New Agers can be incredibly naive and/or arrogant, whilst blindly following the current party line or something they heard on Oprah or read in a self-help book. They can't seem to deal with uncertainty, much like born again religious zealots. I rarely hear a New Ager admit they don't have the answer. Everything can be explained away with a lot of weaselly mumbo jumbo. The thing is I wanted my knee to get better, so according to New Age thinking, the law of attraction, etc., my knee should have healed. But it didn't. Not until I started seeing a naturopath about my allergies.
I take pride in the fact that I think for myself. I like to base decisions on my own research, my own experiences, values and common sense. I'm also learning more and more to listen to my intuition. But when it came to Reiki, I was far too open minded and far too open to the usual New Age blah blah explanations.
After the first time I received a Reiki treatment I experienced a six-week cold, including lots of asthma attacks. (At that time I only got asthma attacks when I had colds.) I was told by the practitioner (who had years of experience) that healing crises are common and my extreme cold was a more severe than normal reaction. That should have sent bells and gongs going off in my mind.
Something else I find interesting: long before I was trained or experienced actual Reiki treatments, I came across a book on it and gave myself a few experimental sessions. (I didn't try this on anyone else.) I had no idea what to expect when I used the different hand positions and found I became very relaxed and dozed off. Honestly, I don't think I've felt much of a difference since taking all the Reiki classes when giving it to myself.
While I think it's important to be open minded (let's face it MDs don't have all the answers and pharmaceuticals are interested in making profits), people who aren't being helped by regular doctors are vulnerable and searching for answers. They can all too easily be taken advantage of.
The people I've met in the Reiki business tend to be New Age flakes. I personally know of someone who now speaks on behalf of animals -- both dead and alive. Enthusiasm about The Secret and What the Bleep is common amongst the people I've met. I know of another Reiki practitioner who is making prosperity hypnosis tapes. I'm not saying they don't have good intentions, but this is all stuff I have no desire to be a part of.
I used to see Reiki as an honourable way of making a living where I could help animals and their people. I never called myself a healer; I always made a point of saying that I was making no promises to heal, that Reiki could help my client relax and in some instances die more peacefully. (I've helped the dying and their loved ones.)
Like a lot of other New Age practises, there is a lot of money to be made, especially if you teach classes -- something I chose not to do. Even if the person doesn't get better, etc. you're still making good money for your time. I have nothing against someone making a decent living, but it's all about honesty and fairness.
I've also come across information that states that the effects of Reiki haven't been tested. What really attracted my attention was reading on a few discussion boards that for some people it can actually cause harm. This is not something that is ever, ever mentioned amongst Reiki practitioners. Actually, the manta is: "Reiki can do no harm." And if someone gets worse or stays the same, it's because "the person had a vested interest in being ill" or "was resistant to the treatment..."
Seems there are good reasons why my intuition caused me to hesitate about setting up a Reiki practise. I never could figure out why because it was supposed to be a good thing. I've reached a point where I want nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, I wasted all kinds of time and money, and now that I've read that it can cause harm, I really hope I never caused harm to anyone, including myself.
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 07, 2009 06:35AM
All I can say, is very basic and simple techniques of critical thinking, are incredibly powerful.
Its as if we are mini-scientists, trying to figure things out. Using some basic tools of critical thinking might be like a little hammer and chisel. You tap tap tap, and before you know it, an entire boulder splits wide open.
So its not really complicated.
For example, Reiki.
One would first do some basic research, and find out that its a type of alleged "energy healing".
[skepdic.com]
Its as simple as, what is the PROOF that it works,or not?
And the proof has to be based on objective evidence and not anecdotes or stories, and controlling for the placebo effect, etc.
This moves into the basics of scientific method, which unfortunately most people never learn.
That's why that book the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan is terrific, that is what it teaches, how to think for yourself.
Its as simple as, what is the evidence for a claim? But people seem to get duped sometimes that stories are evidence, when they are not. If people start believing things without proof, you can get trapped in the rabbit hole forever.
So its great, a person can test any claim that comes up.
Some weird cult, or non-weird culty group starts pitching something, and you just research and test it to see if it holds water. It can even be fun to try and figure it all out.
Very simply methods can literally destroy the most elaborate new agey and culty structure.
This is why every single new agey cult tries to suppress critical thinking!
Its as if we are mini-scientists, trying to figure things out. Using some basic tools of critical thinking might be like a little hammer and chisel. You tap tap tap, and before you know it, an entire boulder splits wide open.
So its not really complicated.
For example, Reiki.
One would first do some basic research, and find out that its a type of alleged "energy healing".
[skepdic.com]
Its as simple as, what is the PROOF that it works,or not?
And the proof has to be based on objective evidence and not anecdotes or stories, and controlling for the placebo effect, etc.
This moves into the basics of scientific method, which unfortunately most people never learn.
That's why that book the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan is terrific, that is what it teaches, how to think for yourself.
Its as simple as, what is the evidence for a claim? But people seem to get duped sometimes that stories are evidence, when they are not. If people start believing things without proof, you can get trapped in the rabbit hole forever.
So its great, a person can test any claim that comes up.
Some weird cult, or non-weird culty group starts pitching something, and you just research and test it to see if it holds water. It can even be fun to try and figure it all out.
Very simply methods can literally destroy the most elaborate new agey and culty structure.
This is why every single new agey cult tries to suppress critical thinking!
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: February 07, 2009 09:59PM
blue sky:
Very interesting that you mention that Reiki is not truly "massage", which is what I also believe. The flyer that I was referring to, actually used the term 'massage' and was selling their services as 'Reiki Massage', which pretty much makes them fibbers (maybe I should just say outright liars) right from the start, doesn't it?! I guess that would be the precursor to the 'big claims' that follow. And the claims are most definitely BIG. I just love therapeutic massage, which does exactly what it promises: It relaxes you and makes you feel good for a while, like scratching an itch or rubbing a sore muscle. So, the Reiki persons in question kinda used the word 'massage' as a hook, to literally bring in this massage-loving fish! Luckily, my recently installed BS Detector saw what was going on in a minute. Thank goodness for critical thinking, and thank Rick Ross for creating this forum.
I'm with Anticult, in that it really doesn't take much effort to check on stuff like this. Just a quick question or two is all that is needed.
qd
Very interesting that you mention that Reiki is not truly "massage", which is what I also believe. The flyer that I was referring to, actually used the term 'massage' and was selling their services as 'Reiki Massage', which pretty much makes them fibbers (maybe I should just say outright liars) right from the start, doesn't it?! I guess that would be the precursor to the 'big claims' that follow. And the claims are most definitely BIG. I just love therapeutic massage, which does exactly what it promises: It relaxes you and makes you feel good for a while, like scratching an itch or rubbing a sore muscle. So, the Reiki persons in question kinda used the word 'massage' as a hook, to literally bring in this massage-loving fish! Luckily, my recently installed BS Detector saw what was going on in a minute. Thank goodness for critical thinking, and thank Rick Ross for creating this forum.
I'm with Anticult, in that it really doesn't take much effort to check on stuff like this. Just a quick question or two is all that is needed.
qd
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: April 05, 2009 02:25AM
In that blue sky actually got banned from this forum by the moderator, I suspect that one reason this thread got sidetracked is perhaps by design. That being said, I found a great 'on-topic' article by Steve Salerno, dating back to May of 2005--just one month before the release of his book "SHAM: How The Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless".
The article, from National Revue Online, is titled Overdosing on Oprah.
qd
The article, from National Revue Online, is titled Overdosing on Oprah.
qd
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo & Karla McLaren
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: April 05, 2009 08:17AM
I just found my way to this thread and read through most of it.
Boy, can I relate to the concept of "recovering from new age mumbo jumbo"!
Earlier in the thread, the former "energy healer" Karla McLaren got mentioned. In 2004, McLaren had written a widely circulated article, Bridging The Gap Between Two Cultures, detailing her disillusionment with the new age and attempting to reconcile new age versus skeptical communities.
I really got a lot out of McLaren's article, both when I had initially read it and then whenever I would remember it and re-read it.
And so I wondered what McLaren was up to these days. Happily, she has posted a "2008 Update" at her former website. McLaren continues to operate outside of the new age and is even writing a book from her current perspective. In her update, McLaren came across to me as quite balanced (dare I say "grounded"?!) and shared some really interesting perspectives re dealing with the new age and beyond...
This is a link to Karla McLaren's latest:
[[url=http://www.emovere.com/where.htm]Karla McLaren's 2008 Update[/url]]
Boy, can I relate to the concept of "recovering from new age mumbo jumbo"!
Earlier in the thread, the former "energy healer" Karla McLaren got mentioned. In 2004, McLaren had written a widely circulated article, Bridging The Gap Between Two Cultures, detailing her disillusionment with the new age and attempting to reconcile new age versus skeptical communities.
I really got a lot out of McLaren's article, both when I had initially read it and then whenever I would remember it and re-read it.
And so I wondered what McLaren was up to these days. Happily, she has posted a "2008 Update" at her former website. McLaren continues to operate outside of the new age and is even writing a book from her current perspective. In her update, McLaren came across to me as quite balanced (dare I say "grounded"?!) and shared some really interesting perspectives re dealing with the new age and beyond...
This is a link to Karla McLaren's latest:
[[url=http://www.emovere.com/where.htm]Karla McLaren's 2008 Update[/url]]
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo & Karla McLaren
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: April 05, 2009 08:44AM
scanned this article, and one thing jumped out. This is EXACTLY what is what like to be up onstage looking out at all those people in pain. Anyone who works at, or does seminars sees this right away.
This is what people like Byron Katie, and many others, see everyday. A wave of people in desperate pain.
and in the seminar business, you make the serious money from the aftersales, where you sell them more tapes and upsells.
You have to be utterly ruthless to be able to do this to these desperate people. you clearly see their pain, and you have to sell to that pain, even though you know it doesn't work, as they come back over and over.
some of us have seen that with our own eyes, so that is why the scam is so transparent.
It was so bad, Karla McLaren had to get out of the racket. Whereas the really ruthless folks stay in and cash-in on it.
some folks in the Byron Katie scene might get something out of her articles?
[www.emovere.com]
QUOTE:
"I saw that pain when I was up on stage being the spiritual healer gal, or the empath. I don't even know how to describe it to you – the sorrow, and the fear, and the naked longing that I saw in people's faces. There was this aching hope that if they listened to me (or someone), or if I (or someone) looked at them in the right way, or if I (or someone) said the right things, or if I (or someone) wrote the right words, their pain would be suddenly healed and they would be able to breathe and live more easily. It was oppressive up on stage for me – to see all that, and to try to do something, anything ... to make it better for people"
This is what people like Byron Katie, and many others, see everyday. A wave of people in desperate pain.
and in the seminar business, you make the serious money from the aftersales, where you sell them more tapes and upsells.
You have to be utterly ruthless to be able to do this to these desperate people. you clearly see their pain, and you have to sell to that pain, even though you know it doesn't work, as they come back over and over.
some of us have seen that with our own eyes, so that is why the scam is so transparent.
It was so bad, Karla McLaren had to get out of the racket. Whereas the really ruthless folks stay in and cash-in on it.
some folks in the Byron Katie scene might get something out of her articles?
[www.emovere.com]
QUOTE:
"I saw that pain when I was up on stage being the spiritual healer gal, or the empath. I don't even know how to describe it to you – the sorrow, and the fear, and the naked longing that I saw in people's faces. There was this aching hope that if they listened to me (or someone), or if I (or someone) looked at them in the right way, or if I (or someone) said the right things, or if I (or someone) wrote the right words, their pain would be suddenly healed and they would be able to breathe and live more easily. It was oppressive up on stage for me – to see all that, and to try to do something, anything ... to make it better for people"
Quote
helpme2times
This is a link to Karla McLaren's latest:
[[url=http://www.emovere.com/where.htm]Karla McLaren's 2008 Update[/url]]
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
Christa
()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:18PM
I've known about Karla for several years. She wrote an essay that appeared in one of the skeptic magazines. I deeply admire her. I think she's a great example of the sort of person who could make it as a guru, yet decides not to; she's obviously intelligent, perceptive, and possessed of a conscience and a strong moral sense.
Says something about those who decide to stay in the game, doesn't it?
Says something about those who decide to stay in the game, doesn't it?
Re: Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: April 06, 2009 10:41PM
Yes!Quote
Christa
I've known about Karla for several years. She wrote an essay that appeared in one of the skeptic magazines. I deeply admire her. I think she's a great example of the sort of person who could make it as a guru, yet decides not to; she's obviously intelligent, perceptive, and possessed of a conscience and a strong moral sense.
Says something about those who decide to stay in the game, doesn't it?
Unfortunately McLaren seems to be a rare bird in her (former) field.
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