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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: sam108 ()
Date: October 27, 2008 06:20PM

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corboy
For someone who has just recently found this thread, sam108 shows a suspiciously high degree of rhetorical sophistication. There are precedents for groups coaching members to show up and provide an oppressive atmosphere on a thread.
I can see how you've formed this impression of me, but I don't think it's mostly due to Diamond Way. I used to be in the high school debating team, and I have a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy, so I suppose I'm reasonably proficient at defending ideas in a rational manner. I think, the main contribution to this which Diamond Way has given me, is the emphasis on compassion, which implies for me trying to emphasize with alternative viewpoints, rather than condemning those who hold them. I think, demonstrating compassion towards those who disagree with us, is a fruitful way of changing their perspectives; whereas, I think, condemning people for their views, neither changes their view, nor does anything to help anyone.

I do sincerely hope my personal contribution to this thread has not been providing an "oppressive atmosphere". From my own perspective, I have been trying to share my own viewpoint in a courteous and respectful manner.

I appreciate your point that some groups encourage or organize their members to counter online criticism. I have no doubt that some groups do. All I can say, is I'm personally unaware of anyone doing this within Diamond Way. Certainly, no one within Diamond Way approached me and asked me to address this forum; I merely stumbled upon it under my own steam, and decided to contribute my own perspective. I don't know the other Diamond Way contributors, so I can't speak for their motivations; but, if they were being encouraged in some organized manner to contribute, I would be surprised, since that would be outside my own experience. I suppose its up to you whether you believe me on this point, since its rather impossible for me to prove a negative.

Thank you for listening

Simon

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Emma C ()
Date: October 29, 2008 02:45AM

Personal insults posted to me on Wikipedia by Diamond Way cult members:

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are u allright? drugs maybe? So u might suffer from a distorted view of reality, inability to think and act coherently or both. Either way, you will not get anywhere, I will be here long after you are taken off to a mental institution.

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r u on drugs? lama ole nydahl never talked bad about eny1

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u must be mentally ill to talk bad about dwb and lama ole. hope u get well soon.

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criticizing lama ole is false and libellious. it is illegal so stop it.

Just to show what these people are REALLY like!
(Their spelling isn't great either lol)

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 29, 2008 02:57AM

Remember, all of you who are bullying on behalf of Diamond Way, whether doing it politely as Simon is doing and nastily as the people on Wiki are doing...

this could be a way that Diamond Way is implanting shame so that you will be less likely to ever question an organization that led you to dirty yourselves this way.

Trolling as shame implantation. It could be a form of thought and emotion control that needs to be added to Lifton's list, as the Internet was not yet part of our lives when Lifton first formulated his cult criteria.

Doing dirty tricks for an organization means your own hands are muddied. It becomes that much harder to question
your own allegiance after you've done something nasty on behalf of a group.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Outsider ()
Date: October 29, 2008 01:29PM

First of all, thanks to Hao and Sam for their contributions but they I have to say each is missing the point I am raisin, or should I say points, however by their posts they admit to the faults pretty much word for word.

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Hao
Hi All

I am another member of DW. I found this site trough google alerts, set on “Ole Nydahl”.

First of all, I must say to Outsider, I do not know your friend nor his motives. Lama Ole Nydahl is very specific about not to create debt, as well as not cheating or in other ways hurting ones partner. Especially when children are involved. Whatever your friend is doing, it sounds like an act of free will. Did he skip the part about taken responsibility of own actions?

HaO

(quote Sam)

Lama Ole says that, in terms of sexual ethics, the Buddha only condemned two things: harming others, and incest. Based on that, if people freely agree to take part in an open relationship, there is nothing in the Buddha's sexual ethics which condemns it.
For the benefit of Sam the relationship I discuss has not broken down as you assume, certainly to the degree you assume. As for ethics, I pointed out in my previous post that neither party has consented to an open relationship at this stage but one party has been led into believing that in their path to enlightenment they should perhaps experiment. Funnily enough this would happen to be with a fairly high up DW teacher who needless to say doesn’t have th baggage of being a parent, holding down a 'real' job, paying bills or abiding to normal society protocols, in short taking responsibility for their actions and how they may affect on others.
If a person doesn’t have an inbuilt capacity to be responsible for their actions or have full courage of their own convictions then they are weak to manipulation and they will be easily led. In this case they obviously come into contact with DW (or another cult for that matter) meet new and interesting friends, begin to learn the doctrine of the group, become more open to the group, reveal problems to the group, receive guidance from the group to relieve their suffering and we all know the rest..................
As I said I have experienced the teachings of DW and they are to my mind extremely corrupt and dysfunctional, for example hiding behind the wall of an invite only web site where all manner of teachers and Ole lieutenants can promote their own doctrine and thoughts on how one achieves enlightenment.
I will go back to the basics which seem to have been skipped by the above 2 quotes, DW requires total dedication and doesn’t like outsiders with objective views. DW requires financial commitment, DW is not family orientated, DW benefits nobody out of the group (though establishes centres as registered charity). DW will not be with you when times get hard so think again before throwing everything away in its favor or make sure you draw in your family and friends for added income and brownie points.
I believe I am objective in my view, I dont have an axe to grind as some may suggest, I just believe that the truth should be known and people should be aware of what they might be getting into. After all, there is no effective regulation to govern religious groups but your state school is regulated up to the eye balls, why, just recall the abuses of the past that occured in the name of schooling / education.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: cybertao ()
Date: October 29, 2008 01:47PM

The message below seems a good example of "cultish" way of thinking:

1) First, a reference saying this teaching is not for "anybody". The idea of being a selected people with unique ideas create a clear distinction between "we" and "them". Also, how many healthy religious organizations will say "Feel free to be with us or not". Isn't this MERE COMMON SENSE?, so there is no need to be said. However, from a cult perspective, for someone who already invested some time and effort inside that organization, it would sound more like "if you don't like the truth or fun like us, then better to go away". It is an obvious pressure tactic masked as "free will".

2) Please notice the text below refers to Mr. Ole Nydahl as the only reference for Buddhist knowledge without any cross-reference to traditional sources. In other words, it is not the question that "we misunderstand", but that we are not aware about the qualities and thoughts of the great leader. I think there is no way to justify the horrible things that Mr. Nydahl said about Islam. The argument provided below could be used for DW members as well.... Like it was referred to Islam, there is always an argument that some DW Members may be "backwards" and some "good ones"..... The simple act of trying to justify what goes in Mr. Ole Nydahl's mind seems to provide a good insight on how a member in DW may become enmeshed with the leader's thoughts after some time.

3) The sexual references are absurd since it uses Mr. Nydahl's thoughts are the reference for orthodoxy of buddhist teachings. I lived in Tibet and I am puzzled with the arrogant references that sexual experiences are being used in DW are the "real thing". The person below seems to have been in contact only with the shallow interpretation of DW, so everything is a circular reasoning. While sexual and sensorial aspects have some part in Tibetan practices, this is anything like the person below says. In addition, the incredible insistence from Mr. Nydahl on people to have open mind about sex is totally out of purpose. I heard references on which Mr. Nydahl clearly refers this openness is necessary, so that DW would not have people with mental tribulations.... The problem is not only this idea of "free love", but also combined with a freewheeling party mentality with a lot of alcohol around. i am really sorry, but all of this is a real poor excuse of using Buddhism to make Mr. Nydahl's Hippie experiences in the 60s or 70s to last forever...




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sam108
Hi

I am new here, but I came across this thread and thought I might contribute my perspective.
I have some experience with Diamond Way -- but I'm not in any way an official
spokesman for them (if there is such a thing); I don't have any sort of leadership position either.
Reading this thread, it sounds like a very different group from the one I am involved in.
I suppose we all take away our own interpretations of what we perceive.

I don't think Diamond Way is for everybody. Lama Ole himself says that. We have
this saying, "finding the hat that fits". For some people, the Diamond Way hat fits very
well. For other people, it doesn't. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them,
or anything wrong with Diamond Way -- it just means they need to look elsewhere.

People above have raised all sorts of issues about Lama Ole's qualifications to be a Lama,
the legitimacy of the 17th Karmapa (as recognized by Diamond Way), etc. I think these
boil down to interpretations of Buddhist teachings, and on different accounts of events that
happened years ago. I wasn't there years ago, and I don't feel qualified to judge on complicated
questions about the proper interpretations of traditional teachings. What I can say, is that I
(and a lot of other people) have found Diamond Way to be a place which contributes to my
spiritual well-being, which is why I continue to be associated with it. Because of that,
these sort of arguments (which I'm out of my depth to judge) don't sway me.

I also think, in terms of Lama Ole's attitude to Islam: I think there are two types of Muslims
-- backward, conservative types; and the more secular progressive sort. I think in terms of
the first group, Ole's criticisms are 100% on target, if maybe a bit bluntly worded. In terms
of the second group, I think Ole just doesn't seem to notice they are there, and I think if he
would make some more effort to acknowledge them I think people would be less critical of
him in this area. Also, although I see the political and social usefulness of supporting liberal
/ progressive interpretations of Islam, one has to ask, whose interpretation is more
historically authentic? And I'm afraid, as much as it is politically inopportune to say, that
the more backward sort is probably more historically authentic; and one aspect of Ole's
distinctive vocation is to point out those truths that some of us would rather ignore.

I'd also like to comment on claims of "sexual abuse". I think some people misinterpret
both the open attitude to relationships which is common (but not compulsory) in the Diamond Way
community, and also the traditional Tantric Buddhist spiritual approach to sexuality. Some people
like the idea of openness in relationships; other people find that concept hard to fathom. But there
is nothing specifically Diamond Way about that, it is also a broader (albeit minority) view within
Western culture, shared by groups of all sorts of different persuasions, spiritual or secular. I myself,
I have always been inclined to that attitude towards relationships, long before I ever even heard of
Diamond Way, so that aspect doesn't bother me. But I understand a lot of people can't understand it;
maybe they should just live and let live, rather than condemn them?

The other aspect of the sexual question -- traditionally, in Western culture, the sexual and spiritual
domains were considered largely disjoint, except in the specific case of marriage. So, the idea of
a spiritual teacher having a sexual relationship seems highly improper. But, I think the impropriety
really comes from the betrayal of trust -- in the Christian tradition, for instance, ministers of religion
are expected to behave in a way which excludes sexual relations with either anyone (celibacy), or
no one but their marital partner. Thus, for a religious functionary in that sort of tradition to engage
in a sexual relationship with a follower is to violate the teachings of their religion, and thus violate
the trust which the follower has placed in them as a minister. But, if a religion doesn't teach that,
then no such violation of trust occurs. I'd say the same thing about attempts to analogize medical
ethics into spirituality -- if you go to see a physician, you don't expect a sexual relationship, and
thus for a physician to engage in one is inappropriate. On the other hand, do you expect a sexual
relationship if you go to a spiritual teacher? Well, that really depends on the nature of their teachings.
If they teach e.g. "no sex outside of marriage", which would judge that such a relationship is improper,
and then seek to engage in one anyway, that suggests they are being abusive. Whereas, if they teach
"free love" (to use an old phrase), and offer you the opportunity to participate in that with them,
how is that a betrayal? It's not a betrayal; its just their being truthful to their own teachings.

I understand that, for someone to describe their experiences as "sexual abuse", they must be in
great personal pain. At the same time, I feel that the term should really be restricted to cases
involve minors, or those of restricted capacities (e.g. the intellectually disabled), or non-consensual
cases (i.e. rape). If an adult of sound mind consensually engages in sexual activity, then I don't
think we should call it abuse, even if they later regret doing it. I'm sure some people have had
sexual experiences in the context of Diamond Way which they later regretted -- just as people
have had sexual experiences they have regretted outside Diamond Way as well -- but unless they
involved lack of consent or other violations of the law, I don't think its fair to label them abuse.

Thanks for listening
Samuel

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Emma C ()
Date: November 05, 2008 06:11PM

well said, corboy, outsider and cybertao. it seems DW's tactics are now being exposed for what they truly are.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Emma C ()
Date: November 08, 2008 11:05PM

Another Diamond Way book has been leaked onto the internet!

This is the 'Mandala Offerings' ritual that is a major money spinner for the Diamond Way cult.

You only get to do this once you are high up enough in the hierarchy. Those doing it are not allowed to tell those lower down about what it contains and lie to both them and the public about it. In this way it is like Diamond Way's "Xenu story".

Enjoy...!

[www.wikiupload.com]

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: dr. thomas ()
Date: November 09, 2008 12:34AM

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Emma C
Another Diamond Way book has been leaked onto the internet!

This is the 'Mandala Offerings' ritual that is a major money spinner for the Diamond Way cult.

You only get to do this once you are high up enough in the hierarchy. Those doing it are not allowed to tell those lower down about what it contains and lie to both them and the public about it. In this way it is like Diamond Way's "Xenu story".

Enjoy...!

[www.wikiupload.com]

I wasn't able to download this; am I mssing something?

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Emma C ()
Date: November 09, 2008 05:36PM

There should be three buttons on the right of the page. Click the one labelled 'download this file'. You will then have to enter a 4 digit code to prove you are not an automated bot. After entering this number, click the 'get' button to download the file. It is a PDF.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: darren c ()
Date: November 09, 2008 11:20PM

Someone didn't do there homework. Putting colored rice in a pan Isn't some secret ritual.

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