Quote
emma c
While I agree to some degree with what you have said about Vajrayana, this topic is about Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way cult, which is not legitimate Vajrayana. Please stay on topic.

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corboy
It is Mr Ross's job as moderator, to instruct all us, (including myself) to stay on topic.

After lecturing me in several post by Corboy like a moderator.
It shows the attitude.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

bye

this was, until recently, on the London DW centre website,

"Starting in August 2008 Diamond Way Buddhism been subject to an online smear campaign. We are aware of the perpetrator's identity. He has made a number of false, libelous allegations about Diamond Way Buddhism and persistent abusive phone calls to people in our groups, which have been reported to the police. We genuinely have no idea why he has decided to vilify us on the internet or why he persists in harrassing people in our groups, but we are open to discuss his claims, either in person or through a solicitor."

and I noticed on page 2 of this thread, davidlondon wrote,

"he has decided for reasons known only to himself, to start a personal internet crusade against Lama Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism."

(my underlining)

not only is it entirely obvious to everyone else why someone would do this. just look at some of the comments on this thread

but, more importantly, DWB is basically stating that they believe themselves to be whiter than white. that is the aspect of this which really struck me.

it basically states that DWB considers itself to be beyond any possible reproach.

DWB cannot even consider the idea that anyone might take issue with them in any way.
(this in itself answers the question of why someone might act like this. an abject lesson in how to inflame an easily diffused situation)


yet i know for sure four people who DWB have spread untrue and damaging gossip about.

in all of these cases they have used the same tactic of labelling them "sick," or "disturbed"

in at least two of these cases DWB have made false statements to the police in an attempt to incrimnate them.
(which obviously failed due to the fact that DWB invented the whole thing)

and then they call this a libellous smear campaign when someone tries to tell the truth.
they say they are open to discussion, but the truth is that they don't want to hear it, and there is no forum for managing this sort of thing in DWB, the leaders of the centres make decisions and the rest follow them like sheep, so it's hardly surprising that people turn to the internet


ok, so the truth to one person is not necessarily true for the other, that's a fact of life.

but to claim that they are somehow beyond question is really pushing the bounds of credibility.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2009 07:59AM by suenam.

Earlier on this thread Dave showed up suggesting that a Dharma Debate be conducted to evaluate DW.

[forum.culteducation.com]

February 06, 2009 01:43AM

Quote

Quote:
Hi Anti and Corboy
Thanks for your post.

I thought , what is needed is a Dharma Debate contention in the internet .
Instead of complaining about a person/teacher,
we can take the content of both teachings taught in Diamondway and Kagdyu school and to draw the comparisons.

What is needed now is the deep analysis, to descend from the superficiality / complainants about a person or a behaviour and to plunge into the deeper meaning of the all.

And what is needed more is a continuous debate, based on real experience, observations and to report the recording in the internet!

Is that a way we can handle the problem?

Dave

In an earlier post on RR.com, Dave wrote:

[forum.culteducation.com]

February 05, 2009 01:53AM

Quote

Quote:
Question for the moderators, is it in accordance with the rules and regulations of this forum, to fathom the difference between Diamondway teachings and Karma Kagdyu doctrine, in order to expose the difference of both interpretations and to validate?
Because Diamondway asserts to teach and practice authentic Karma Kagdyu School doctrine.
I think this is the real crux in the matter.

Thanks a lot!

Dave

P.S. And we have no other means to discuss this with Ole directly in a meaningful way without risking the discussion will be blocked, or opponents will risk to be precluded.

*(boldface added for editorial emphasis--C)

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 02:16AM by Dave.

If Dave had all this background with Ole, why cant he discuss this directly with Ole, eh?

*It appears to me, that the DW problems stem from a teacher being at the very least unavailable or inaccessible for discussion.

This is a leadership problem, not a lineage problem.

Now...getting back to the request that RR.com, a non Buddhist site, make itself available for a dharma debate...

Well....It turns out a full scale Dharma debate concerning DW and Ole has already taken place.

Recently.

On E-sangha.

The debate ran for 2 years before the E-sangha moderators closed that thread in 2008. And it covers over 50 pages.

Quote

And what is needed more is a continuous debate, based on real experience, observations and to report the recording in the internet!

Two years and 50 pages of space on E-sangha is a pretty continuous debate.

And its not written on the wall of a hidden cave on Mount Kailash. Its available, via Google and can be read by anyone, though by now its closed to further discussion.

So Dave can go read it and find his wish has already come true on E-sangha--a Buddhist venue full of people qualified to discuss the matter.

Funnily enough, it appears that someone using Daves same handle and with similar background in 3 year retreat and shedra study in India participated in this E-sangha dharma debate.

So in charity, let us pretend there are two Daves--Dave1 on RR.com and Dave2 on E-sangha

On RR.com 'Dave1' wrote:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Quote:
Without wanting to disclose my identity in the internet, I like to say that I know Ole date from 1977.
I as well as others were very close to Ole during the first time, (for decades) and I can say for myself, that at present time I don't entertain any bitter feelings towards Ole or the like. Still feel close to Ole.

So my motivation is not of a personal nature.

During my Dharma time I came in touch with many different great Tibetan teachers and also with some Western teachers like for example Ole and Hannnah, Hernrik and Walli, and DW travel teachers, as well as with so many self declared teachers.

I went through a traditional three year retreat and I did study the Dharma (higher fields of knowledge) in a Tibetan Shedra in India, for a period of5 years.

(Corboy note: If someone who knew Ole back from 1977 cant discuss troubling matters directly with him, then the teacher is at fault for not being available to help resolve problems that affect the sangha.

Thats a problem in leadership and it comes from the leader--not from corrupt lineage, or because the students have corrupted the leader.)


and on E-sangha in the Ole discussion, Dave2 wrote:

[www.lioncity.net]

Quote

Jan 24 2006, 04:46 AM


Quote:
Dear thegiantalbion
There is much to say about his stile of teachings, but i wrorry this can be inflame some hot discussions and the cause of opening the box of pandora.

I now him since 1978, there is much good what he is doing and there are some points of critic about him which are not only of emotional nature.

D.

and

Quote

Mar 2 2006, 12:24 AM

An earlier poster named Endymion had written about Ole:

Quote:
which says he(Ole) only teaches the sutric - sort-of - mahamudra, and only a 'lite' mahayana.
Which is the case??

the jumping out of airplanes thing is - well funny

Dave2 replied

Quote:
The jump from the airplane is just funny but no fault in actual sense.
Hi Endymion

Frankly speaking its a kind of wishy washy of its own stuff and also mixed with other Buddhist transmissions.

I am sorry to say so, but i observed this man 28 years and i found that his teachings are not 100% correct.

On the other side he is doing also very positive things, he is teaching very useful general things i never heard from other Lamas.

So my observation of this man is based on many years following him first and later i did a ]3 year retreat with Lama Gendun Rinpoche and much later i did study the Dharma in India 5 years long. After i got the knowledge about what were wrong with his teachings.

All in all i can say, that his knowledge about the Buddha-dharma is based of some very basic knowledge, and what he taught is very much mixed with some personal hero -stuff, mysticism, cult about his person, he says more or less, he is the an emanation of Mahakala with the effect that people belief he is Mahakala in person, which again misleads people mind, they belief he resides on the 10th bodhisattva level.

This is completely nonsense, to be a emanation does not automaticall mean that the person in question has the capacity of a realised bodhisattva like been omniscient like a Buddha. And it doesn't mean he can teach the Dharma without need to studying it into detail before, it also doesn't mean that an emanation is free from compounded tendencies, or karma and it doesn't mean an emanation is without faults and error. He also did no traditional 3 year retreat but calls himself a Lama which is again a little bit misleading the public about his real qualifications.

Since in Karma Kagyu school the title Lama is given after to both lay and monk if the person did a traditional 3 year retreat. But Ole
didn't, he attributes himself with the title of being a Lama which is baseless.

His claim being an emanation of Mahakala is based on one quotation by the late 16th Karmapa...,i never heard it by myself and never meet anybody who eye- witnessed this historical occasion.
In the west people are easily impressed by some good feelings and by some good jumps and entertainments, (like in a TV show) if the knowledge of the Buddha-dharma is very low, easy fertile fields for Buddhism light.

Westerners are naive and credulous about spirituality and those teachers.
Sorry if anybody may feel uneasy with this.

(Initials given in original version but omitted by courtesy here--Corboy

(Note how in the end, after this analysis of Oles dubious lineage credentials and training--the blame gets placed, on naive and credulous westeners.

Vajrayana Taboo strikes again.

Ultimate responsiblity is never with the powerholders. By being powerholders they are exempt from an accountability commensurate with their power. C)

And, someone named 'Valantin' showed up on E-sangha too. Rather a similar spelling to the 'Valontin' who was banned recently from RR.com.

So..lets pretend...that its V1 and V2.

On Apr 23 2008, 09:57 AM

V2 wrote:

[www.lioncity.net]

Quote

Quote:
Hi to everyone!
Well, yes Lama Ole sometimes says he is more like a program. And yes he is doing Karmapa`s work. But like a program does not mean he is a program.
And I don't really know somebody of us - his students to think that Lama Ole is in touch in some higher transcendental power.

Also Ole never says he is obsessed by any external power.
Everyone has Buddha nature, so we all can have Buddha activity, we can inspire, we can teach and of course we can protect others.
And I never saw or hear Ole to give his responsibilities or mistakes to somebody else


QUOTE
We have a very normal explanation for what is going on with Ole Nydahl, he is simply a workaholic, and he like to do what he does.

That is just one possible point of view.
Other is that he is simply Bodhisattva and works tirelessly for the benefit of others. And that is what he is doing.
I can see actually nearly all of Ole`s students (for me and I think for Ole too, more right word is colleagues) has immense growth, became fearless, joyful and actively compassionate.

In a interview Lama Ole says something like this:
Here is important not to break the bond with the teacher. I have received many and important teachings from Situpa. And despite we are in big contradiction with him now, I am grateful for the teachings.
Please use every opportunity to do good things - no matter how small they are, and avoid any chance to do something harmful, no matter how small it is.

---------------

Just a point of view, for me Lama Ole is a Buddha. It is because of him I can see the buddha nature in others and can work with enlightened teachings for the benefit of others.
I also think that there are many other lamas that are Buddhas to their students.
Of course it is good to examine carefully, not to blindly believe.

Drarma is the same, packing is different.

Best wishes, much love, joy and enlightenment to all.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2009 09:32AM by corboy.

The following is an open letter circulated by The Network for Western Buddhist Teachers, based in Tucson, Arizona,

On March 16-19, 1993, a meeting was held in Dharamsala, India, between His Holiness the fourteenth Dalai Lama and a group of twenty- two Western dharma teachers from the major Buddhist traditions in Europe and America. Also present were the Tibetan lamas Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche, Pachen Otrul Rinpoche, and Amchok Rinpoche. The aim of the meeting was to discuss openly a wide range of issues concerning the transmission of Budhadharma to Western lands.

After four days of presentations and discussions we agreed on the following points:

1. Our first responsibility as Buddhists is to work towards creating a better world for all forms of life. The promotion of Buddhism as a religion is a secondary concern. Kindness and compassion, the furthering of peace and harmony, as well as tolerance and respect for other religions, should be the three guiding principles of our actions.

2. In the West, where so many different Buddhist traditions exist side by side, one needs to be constantly on one's guard against the danger of sectarianism. Such a divisive attitude is often the result of failing to understand or appreciate anything outside one's own tradition. Teachers from all schools would therefore benefit greatly from studying and gaining some practical experience of the teachings of other traditions.

3. Teachers should also be open to beneficial influences from secular and other religious traditions. For example, the insights and techniques of contemporary psychotherapy can often be of great value in reducing suffering experienced by students. At the same time, efforts to develop psychologically oriented practices from within the existing Buddhist tradition should be encouraged.

4. An individual's position as a teacher arises in dependence on the request of his or her students, not simply on being appointed as such by a higher authority. Great care must therefore be exercised by the student in selecting an appropriate teacher. Sufficient time must be given to making this choice, which should be based on personal investigation, reason, and experience. Students should be warned against the dangers of falling prey to charisma, charlatans, or exoticism.

5. Particular concern was expressed about unethical conduct among teachers. both Asian and Western teachers have been involved in scandals concerning sexual misconduct with their students, abuse of alcohol and drugs, misappropriation of funds, and misuse of power. This has resulted in widespread damage both to the Buddhist community and the individuals involved. Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicize any unethical behaviour of which there is irrefutable evidence. This should be done irrespective of other beneficial aspects of his or her work and of one's spiritual commitment to that teacher. It should also be made clear in any publicity that such conduct is not in conformity with Buddhist teachings. No matter what level of spiritual attainment a teacher has, or claims to have, reached, no person can stand above the norms of ethical conduct. In order for the Buddha dharma not to be brought into disrepute and to avoid harm to students and teachers, it is necessary that all teachers at least live by the five lay precepts. In cases where ethical standards have been infringed, compassion and care should be shown towards both teacher and student.

6. Just as the Dharma has adapted itself to many different cultures throughout its history in Asia, so is it bound to be transformed according to conditions in the West. Although the principles of the Dharma are timeless, we need to exercise careful discrimination in distinguishing between essential teachings and cultural trappings. However, confusion may arise due to various reasons. There may be a conflict in loyalty between commitment to one's Asian teachers and responsibility to one's Western students. Likewise, one may encounter disagreement about the respective value of monastic and lay practice. Furthermore, we affirm the need for equality between the sexes in all aspects of Buddhist theory and practice.

The Western teachers were encouraged by His Holiness to take greater responsibility in creatively resolving the issues that were raised. For many, His Holiness' advice served as a profound confirmation of their own feelings, concerns, and actions.

In addition to being able to discuss issues frankly with His Holiness- , the conference served as a valuable forum for teachers from different traditions to exchange views. We are already planning future meetings with His Holiness and will invite other colleagues who were not present in Dharamsala to participate in the ongoing process. His Holiness intends to invite more heads of different Asian Buddhist traditions to attend future meetings.



Signed: Fred von Allmen, Brendan Lee Kennedy, Ven. Ajahn Amaro, Bodhin Kjolhede Sensei, Jack Kornfield, Martine Batchelor, Dharmachari Kulananda, Stephen Batchelor, Jakusho Bill Kwong Roshi, Alex Berzin, Lama Namgyal (Daniel Boschero), Ven. Thubten Chodron (Cherry Greene), Ven. Tenzin Palmo, Lama Drupgyu Crony Chapman), Ven. Thubten Pende (James Dougherty), Lopon Claude aEsnee, Lama Surya Das aeffrey Miller), Edie Irwin, Robert Thurman, Junpo Sensei (Denis Kelly), Sylvia Wetzel.


(http://www.anandainfo.com/buddhist_ethics.html)

Corboy, are you fine?

please use a mirror, or take a tranquilizer pill, but stop throwing all kind of junk towards people like me.

what has my question original directed to the moderator of Rick Ross to do with you?

Are you scared not being able to follow a debate you are not familiar with, hence, forced to shut up for while???

For sake to give the forum some piece of mind we better should start a dharma debate.
May you get well soon.

D.

P.S. If you go on with your harassment I will notify the moderator!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2009 01:57AM by Dave.

Dave:

First warning.

Don't use personal attacks on this thread or you will be banned from the message board.

Dear Moderator

Please scroll a few pages back and read the entire thread until now. (Starting around February the 8th, page 20)
Until (February 11, 2009 06:26PM)

Maybe you can see my point?

Dave

and read my PM



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2009 07:37AM by Dave.

Dave:

I don't see your point.

The warning stands.

Abide by the rules.

Hi moderator

Does the forum operate with equal standard for all members?

D.

Dave:

Yes. And you have crossed the line, i.e. regarding the specific rules you agreed to before posting here.

No preaching (your personal religious views).

No personal attacks.

Frankly you come across as an Internet troll, here to advance your own agenda and/or be disruptive with the purpose of subverting this thread.