Earlier on this thread Dave showed up suggesting that a Dharma Debate be conducted to evaluate DW.
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forum.culteducation.com]
February 06, 2009 01:43AM
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Hi Anti and Corboy
Thanks for your post.
I thought , what is needed is a Dharma Debate contention in the internet .
Instead of complaining about a person/teacher,
we can take the content of both teachings taught in Diamondway and Kagdyu school and to draw the comparisons.
What is needed now is the deep analysis, to descend from the superficiality / complainants about a person or a behaviour and to plunge into the deeper meaning of the all.
And what is needed more is a continuous debate, based on real experience, observations and to report the recording in the internet!
Is that a way we can handle the problem?
Dave
In an earlier post on RR.com, Dave wrote:
[
forum.culteducation.com]
February 05, 2009 01:53AM
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Question for the moderators, is it in accordance with the rules and regulations of this forum, to fathom the difference between Diamondway teachings and Karma Kagdyu doctrine, in order to expose the difference of both interpretations and to validate?
Because Diamondway asserts to teach and practice authentic Karma Kagdyu School doctrine.
I think this is the real crux in the matter.
Thanks a lot!
Dave
P.S. And we have no other means to discuss this with Ole directly in a meaningful way without risking the discussion will be blocked, or opponents will risk to be precluded.
*(boldface added for editorial emphasis--C)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 02:16AM by Dave.
If Dave had all this background with Ole, why cant he discuss this directly with Ole, eh?
*It appears to me, that the DW problems stem from a teacher being at the very least unavailable or inaccessible for discussion.
This is a leadership problem, not a lineage problem.
Now...getting back to the request that RR.com, a non Buddhist site, make itself available for a dharma debate...
Well....It turns out a full scale Dharma debate concerning DW and Ole has already taken place.
Recently.
On E-sangha.
The debate ran for 2 years before the E-sangha moderators closed that thread in 2008. And it covers over 50 pages.
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And what is needed more is a continuous debate, based on real experience, observations and to report the recording in the internet!
Two years and 50 pages of space on E-sangha is a pretty continuous debate.
And its not written on the wall of a hidden cave on Mount Kailash. Its available, via Google and can be read by anyone, though by now its closed to further discussion.
So Dave can go read it and find his wish has already come true on E-sangha--a Buddhist venue full of people qualified to discuss the matter.
Funnily enough, it appears that someone using Daves same handle and with similar background in 3 year retreat and
shedra study in India participated in this E-sangha dharma debate.
So in charity, let us pretend there are two Daves--Dave1 on RR.com and Dave2 on E-sangha
On RR.com 'Dave1' wrote:
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forum.culteducation.com]
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Without wanting to disclose my identity in the internet, I like to say that I know Ole date from 1977.
I as well as others were very close to Ole during the first time, (for decades) and I can say for myself, that at present time I don't entertain any bitter feelings towards Ole or the like. Still feel close to Ole.
So my motivation is not of a personal nature.
During my Dharma time I came in touch with many different great Tibetan teachers and also with some Western teachers like for example Ole and Hannnah, Hernrik and Walli, and DW travel teachers, as well as with so many self declared teachers.
I went through a traditional three year retreat and I did study the Dharma (higher fields of knowledge) in a Tibetan Shedra in India, for a period of5 years.
(Corboy note:
If someone who knew Ole back from 1977 cant discuss troubling matters directly with him, then the teacher is at fault for not being available to help resolve problems that affect the sangha.
Thats a problem in leadership and it comes from the leader--not from corrupt lineage, or because the students have corrupted the leader.)and on E-sangha in the Ole discussion, Dave2 wrote:
[www.lioncity.net]
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Jan 24 2006, 04:46 AM
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Dear thegiantalbion
There is much to say about his stile of teachings, but i wrorry this can be inflame some hot discussions and the cause of opening the box of pandora.
I now him since 1978, there is much good what he is doing and there are some points of critic about him which are not only of emotional nature.
D.
and
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Mar 2 2006, 12:24 AM
An earlier poster named Endymion had written about Ole:
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which says he(Ole) only teaches the sutric - sort-of - mahamudra, and only a 'lite' mahayana.
Which is the case??
the jumping out of airplanes thing is - well funny
Dave2 replied
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The jump from the airplane is just funny but no fault in actual sense.
Hi Endymion
Frankly speaking its a kind of wishy washy of its own stuff and also mixed with other Buddhist transmissions.
I am sorry to say so, but i observed this man 28 years and i found that his teachings are not 100% correct.
On the other side he is doing also very positive things, he is teaching very useful general things i never heard from other Lamas.
So my observation of this man is based on many years following him first and later i did a ]3 year retreat with Lama Gendun Rinpoche and much later i did study the Dharma in India 5 years long. After i got the knowledge about what were wrong with his teachings.
All in all i can say, that his knowledge about the Buddha-dharma is based of some very basic knowledge, and what he taught is very much mixed with some personal hero -stuff, mysticism, cult about his person, he says more or less, he is the an emanation of Mahakala with the effect that people belief he is Mahakala in person, which again misleads people mind, they belief he resides on the 10th bodhisattva level.
This is completely nonsense, to be a emanation does not automaticall mean that the person in question has the capacity of a realised bodhisattva like been omniscient like a Buddha. And it doesn't mean he can teach the Dharma without need to studying it into detail before, it also doesn't mean that an emanation is free from compounded tendencies, or karma and it doesn't mean an emanation is without faults and error. He also did no traditional 3 year retreat but calls himself a Lama which is again a little bit misleading the public about his real qualifications.
Since in Karma Kagyu school the title Lama is given after to both lay and monk if the person did a traditional 3 year retreat. But Ole
didn't, he attributes himself with the title of being a Lama which is baseless.
His claim being an emanation of Mahakala is based on one quotation by the late 16th Karmapa...,i never heard it by myself and never meet anybody who eye- witnessed this historical occasion.
In the west people are easily impressed by some good feelings and by some good jumps and entertainments, (like in a TV show) if the knowledge of the Buddha-dharma is very low, easy fertile fields for Buddhism light.
Westerners are naive and credulous about spirituality and those teachers.
Sorry if anybody may feel uneasy with this.
(Initials given in original version but omitted by courtesy here--Corboy
(
Note how in the end, after this analysis of Oles dubious lineage credentials and training--the blame gets placed, on naive and credulous westeners.
Vajrayana Taboo strikes again.
Ultimate responsiblity is never with the powerholders. By being powerholders they are exempt from an accountability commensurate with their power. C)And, someone named 'Valantin' showed up on E-sangha too. Rather a similar spelling to the 'Valontin' who was banned recently from RR.com.
So..lets pretend...that its V1 and V2.
On Apr 23 2008, 09:57 AM
V2 wrote:
[
www.lioncity.net]
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Hi to everyone!
Well, yes Lama Ole sometimes says he is more like a program. And yes he is doing Karmapa`s work. But like a program does not mean he is a program.
And I don't really know somebody of us - his students to think that Lama Ole is in touch in some higher transcendental power.
Also Ole never says he is obsessed by any external power.
Everyone has Buddha nature, so we all can have Buddha activity, we can inspire, we can teach and of course we can protect others.
And I never saw or hear Ole to give his responsibilities or mistakes to somebody else
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We have a very normal explanation for what is going on with Ole Nydahl, he is simply a workaholic, and he like to do what he does.
That is just one possible point of view.
Other is that he is simply Bodhisattva and works tirelessly for the benefit of others. And that is what he is doing.
I can see actually nearly all of Ole`s students (for me and I think for Ole too, more right word is colleagues) has immense growth, became fearless, joyful and actively compassionate.
In a interview Lama Ole says something like this:
Here is important not to break the bond with the teacher. I have received many and important teachings from Situpa. And despite we are in big contradiction with him now, I am grateful for the teachings.
Please use every opportunity to do good things - no matter how small they are, and avoid any chance to do something harmful, no matter how small it is.
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Just a point of view, for me Lama Ole is a Buddha. It is because of him I can see the buddha nature in others and can work with enlightened teachings for the benefit of others.
I also think that there are many other lamas that are Buddhas to their students.
Of course it is good to examine carefully, not to blindly believe.
Drarma is the same, packing is different.
Best wishes, much love, joy and enlightenment to all.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2009 09:32AM by corboy.