No connection. There are actually many churches with the name of "Church of the Firstborn", but ours can be traced back to coming over with the Mayflower. We are the "General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn". Any other questions are welcome.

It appears, Diesel, that you are in a Oneness pentecostal church with extreme views. Not only is the "oneness" doctrine (denial of the Trinity), considered heretical by orthodox Christians, but refusal of medical treatment is a practice not endorsed by most pentecostal groups.

Diesel, please explain the Mayflower connection with your Church group. My ancestors lived in Mass. Bay Colony since the early 1600's and were all Puritans. Did your group somehow grow out of the Puritan movement? Have you checked these facts?

Quote

Originally posted by Hogan
Diesel, please explain the Mayflower connection with your Church group. My ancestors lived in Mass. Bay Colony since the early 1600's and were all Puritans. Did your group somehow grow out of the Puritan movement? Have you checked these facts?

He is a true believer.

They never check facts.

Barstool, getting people to check facts is often a good tool in helping people to see that they have been victims of deception. The Mayflower connection, for instance, should be a provable, verifiable, fact. If Diesel finds that this teaching is untrue, there is a possibility that she will begin to question other areas of her belief system. We shouldn't destroy a person's belief system, but give them an opportunity to really examine what they believe.

Diesel has a deep faith, and that is good. However, if she is in a dangerous situation due to the teachings of the elders in her church (and denial of medical attention certainly puts her in danger), then we need to help her to look at the big picture here.

I have always found that groups that set themselves up as the "truth," are the most vulnerable when you actually start looking at facts. Diesel doesn't need to be condemned, but encouraged to research the truth on her own.

Hogan,

You are right. I am sorry for being so terse.

My guess is that by posting here at all Diesel51 has questions that need answering. You have provided more for Diesel51 to think about than I could.

Barstool

All truth is relative, all the information you get passes certain places which makes it less then 100% sure. You see a pen for exmaple, first the light travels to your eye, then the lights is made into electrical signals there, and then your brains interpret those signals (Medical science is great, ain't it?). In all those stages there could have been been a minor defunct which makes you don't get the exact right picture. Therefor truth is a rather uncatchable subject.

It would be great if all those oh so convinced people like this diesel guy would realize so. A lot less suffering like that.

On further note: Statistical evidence shows that the lord hates these people, why else he let so many of them die with painfull diseases? :twisted:

I was a member of a church very similar to the one diesel51 describes. Even though it was 20 years ago, I am recently aware of the scars I still carry. I came to this forum wondering if anyone with a similar past would be here. It doesn't seem there are many, if any at all, "recovering" former members of such churches posting here at this time. However, diesel51's zeal has been an icy reminder, and I thought I'd try to post some thoughts/recollections. I hope they are meaningful or even helpful to someone.

In 1981, the "full gospel" church that I belonged to received a new pastor and slowly but surely transformed into an offshoot of Faith Assembly. The name of the church was even changed to Faith Fellowship. The [i:af024b759a]faith message[/i:af024b759a] had always been taught in the church, but the transformation that accompanied the new pastor was hardly subtle. In part, the message became, God would heal every sickness if a believer's faith were genuine - in fact, God was obligated to do this. Walking in faith was accompanied by [i:af024b759a]positive confession[/i:af024b759a], meaning that believers must [i:af024b759a]claim[/i:af024b759a] the healing by acknowledging that it had already taken place. Even if it hadn't [i:af024b759a]manifested in the natural[/i:af024b759a], believers were to [i:af024b759a]walk by faith and not by sight[/i:af024b759a]. Going to a medical doctor was condemned as [i:af024b759a]leaning on the arm of the flesh[/i:af024b759a]. Members were constantly taught that those who couldn't take the [i:af024b759a]strong meat of the Word[/i:af024b759a] would not be able to remain in the church, and believers should have nothing to do with them. Women were to have their babies at home with the help of midwives – not with any real training, just women who belonged to the church. Women were to be subject to their husband, and had to show their submission by wear head coverings. There were members who resisted the changes (both overtly and passively), but most of those were driven off or just quit coming around.

Before I go on… Those particulars are just some recollections that seem to be the most pertinent to me at the moment. As I read what I have written, I have to admit to myself that the teaching in the church before the new pastor arrived wasn't that much different than after. The first pastor came from the faith churches of Lafayette, LA, a group that I just noticed also receives some attention on this site as cult-like.

My future bride was also a member of this church. She and I had been members since around 1978. She was more or less a passive resister and refused to wear a head covering, but she was thinking of me as her future husband and complied with my insistence that she wear a head covering. After about a year my wife and I were married. Ours was the first wedding the church had, and we were overwhelmed with attention. (The wedding was truly strange, but that's another story.)

We returned from our honeymoon to a devastated church. While we had been gone, a couple who had been [i:af024b759a]"standing in faith, believing"[/i:af024b759a] had withheld medical attention from an infant born with an intestinal deformity. The infant died while we were away. We attended services the following Sunday without knowing anything that had happened. During the service, a young mother, who was a friend of ours, spoke a [i:af024b759a]word of prophesy[/i:af024b759a] to the effect that the Lord was punishing the church for its lack of faith. The church went into turmoil of outspoken disagreement. It wasn't until later in the day that we even began to get the highly distorted picture of the events – the picture remained distorted for years. The church divided into three different groups, each with a self-serving opinion of who or what was to blame. I won't try to recount the events any further.

I wish I could say I had an immediate epiphany. I can't. What I can say now is that the faith-healing message is totally flawed. Faithful Christian or not, everybody gets sick, everybody dies eventually. Withholding medical treatment from children is a terribly selfish act that above all else seeks to retain or to earn approval of the group that espouses the doctrine.

It's self-deception to blame the message, blame the cult, blame this pastor or that elder. Awakening to the full realization of all the error is very difficult and painful. When honestly examining the flaws, you end up having to face yourself and the unsettling truth about the role you may played in the suffering of those who have died and those who have lost loved ones. A particularly vile realization is that those who are healthy retain special honor and learn to become arrogant taskmasters. It is also hard to begin to see the truth about whose approval you really have been seeking (man's not God's).

This seems far from being complete, but it's the best I can do for now.

diesel51,

I was a member of a similar church for just over 50 years. I know what you are saying about the miracles in the lives of the people there, including myself. My mother told me about how I was healed of polio at the age of two when they called the ministers to pray for me instead of taking me to the doctor. As they prayed, they watched my foot, which was turned backwards and red, turn and become healthy. Regarding your accident when you were younger, I was on a rollercoaster in the ‘60s, when I flew completely out of the seat. My brother-in-law pulled me back in. I had severe stomach aches as a child, and they would go away with prayer. My father had heat strokes when I was a teen. They prayed for him, and he would be fine. My son prayed for his dying newborn kitten, and in spite of the mother kitten rejecting him, he lived, and she began to feed him.

Great! But when I became an adult and began to question whether or not I had ever had polio, I asked my mother’s old friends, who knew her well, who came to our house. Both of them told me it never happened. Our G-d receives no glory in lies.

The rollercoaster near-accident? My brother-in-law was quick and I was saved from falling about two stories. My stomach aches and Father’s strokes? It is more likely that the natural healing our G-d has provided healed these things, along with the possible placebo of prayer. The kitten? I believe our G-d answered my little boy’s prayer, and I also stayed up all night, putting him back in the box when its mother kept removing him.

I believe in prayer, and I believe our G-d can do these things. While I know about church members who went through the damage of storms, I am also aware of the stories of storms that hit one house and skipped one of the church member’s homes, but who deserves the platitudes, gratitude, loyalty and commitment for them — a church? NO! Do not give to an organization what our G-d deserves. And if you find out that some of these things were not authentic, don’t be surprised. And don’t be impressed that members of your church are “persecuted” by the authorities: so was Barabbas.

And please do not take this as criticism, but you need to read this: I, too, was said to have a very high IQ. (Hi, Templar! Hee-hee!) I was removed from my classes, told that I was exceptional, and advised to seek a profession involving mathematics. Well, that could not buy a sheet of lined notebook paper then, and it gets me far less now. :-) Your personal intelligence has nothing to do with anything. You are either a believer or you are not, and it will not tip the scale.

In the end of your time, if you think you are going to stand before the leaders of your church to give an account, then you are on the right track. If you recognize that they are not the Judge, then maybe you will find a different way to go, but don’t waste too much time. From experience, I can tell you: you will regret every moment you gave them, keeping them upon the Throne.

It is not difficult to observe that we have contrary standards in our country, especially towards those considered to be in unorthodox groups or cults.

Parents belonging to unacceptable cults will be prosecuted for not utilizing the medical industry if one of their children should die. On the other hand, parents of unborn children belonging to acceptable cults can choose to have their babies cut to pieces and vacuumed out by the medical profession and not be prosecuted. This happens 4500 times each day in America. Do Americans care about children?

Those who lead the nation suggest that laws must be changed to provide for the children's best interest and to protect them. On the other hand, hundreds and thousands of kids are harmed (maimed/deaths) directly or indirectly by alcohol related accidents, as well as smoke inhalation from cigarrettes. This does not seem to bother the people to much because businesses make billions of dollars in sales, and the state/feds make billions of dollars in “sin” taxes. Do they really care about the children?

We say that alcohol and tobacco must be tolerated because every man is free to live the way he wants to live. On the other hand, every man is not permitted to live the way he wants to live. Just ask those who have had their children removed from their homes for living as they see fit. We proclaim that we believe in “freedom of religion” but if one attempts to practice that supposed religious freedom, they find themselves in jail.

If our people really cared about the lives of children, why did they withhold medicine and medical supplies from the 3/4 million children who died of malnutrition and disease during the 13 years of sanctions against the people of Iraq? Do Americans care about children?

If Americans truly have a concern for the well-being of children (all children), why were the hospitals shut down by American soldiers in Falluja, and ambulances shot at by American snipers during the siege a month ago? The maimed and dying children could not be cared for in the country we are trying to liberate. Do we really care about children?

The issue does not seem to be the health and well-being of children. No, if one looks at the actions, and not reported concern, it does not seem that the health and well-being of children is the real issue. They do however, seriously take note of people who break out of acceptable methods of living, as it may cause other people to wake up out of their stupor and start thinking for themselves and not just blindly follow the dictates of the Almighty State.

Elisha