Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: XKRISHNA ()
Date: March 05, 2024 10:10AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's terrific, XKRISHNA! Very brave of you to
> take LSD with a broken brother. I'd have myself an
> unforgettable panic attack and stop loving
> anything or anyone altogether! It's great to find
> a deep connection with others, for most it never
> happens.

Well, I am a "broken brother" too, FORREST. It was an exercise in healing and empathy-building, what we did yesterday. Something we did toward our mutual self-development. I've been in psych wards, totally suicidal. I have not walked in this man's shoes, but I've been through and survived some shit in my life too. So we can relate to one another in many ways, he and I. I am broken, myself. But I am in good physical shape, unlike him.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: March 06, 2024 11:02PM

Broken is, as broken does.

RUN.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: XKRISHNA ()
Date: March 07, 2024 12:30AM

FORREST, I guess that I am used to being around severely traumatized people and I know how to handle those kinds of situations. I used to be friends with the ex-wife and a couple of the children of Lonnie Davis, aka "Marc," of the Family International. I used to be friends with "Lydia West." Google those names. These people had lived at what was called the Jumbo, in the Philippines, in the 1980s. They told me things that have scarred my mind for life. I guess that's why I felt like I could handle doing what I did with this man the other day. I've heard horror stories, right from the mouths of people who lived through them, more than once before in my life. I've hung out with, and have formally interviewed, people who have lived through incredible things. I have lived through incredible things too. I am a former member of a group too, though I was not raised in it and I don't talk much about it. And I am not talking about ISKCON, either; I've been involved with more than one group. It's a long story. But believe me when I tell you: I can relate, man.

[www.xfamily.org]

[www.xfamily.org]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: March 07, 2024 01:48AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Buter came to ISKCON offering his followers to
> Bhaktivedanta. Within the ISKCON structure, those
> followers STILL very much followed and adored
> Butler. And when he left, they left with him, as
> well as several who were not with him before but
> were in ISKCON before his arrival but left when
> Prabhupada died cuz they did not want to deal with
> the GBC etc.

Quote

Respect for all devotees
Ahmedabad
14 December, 1972
Byron's Bay, Australia

My dear Tusta Krishna,
Your next question, after leaving this material realm does the devotee remain forever with his spiritual master? The answer is yes. But I think you have got the mistaken idea in this connection. You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed? Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction. Siddhasvarupa is a good soul. But others should not be misled. Anyone who is surrendered to the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it doesn't matter if Siddhasvarupa or non-Siddhasvarupa. Amongst ourselves one should respect others as Prabhu, master, one another. As soon as we distinguish here is a pure devotee, here is a non-pure devotee, that means I am a nonsense. Why you only want to be in the spiritual sky with Siddhasvarupa? Why not all? If Siddhasvarupa can go, why not everyone? Siddhasvarupa will go, you will go, Syamasundara. will go, all others will go. We will have another ISKCON there. Of course, Mr. Nair must stay. And if somebody does not go, then I shall have to come back to take him there. One should remember this and every one of my disciples should act in such a way that they may go with me and may not have to come back to take another birth. As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind. Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshipped. Vani is more important than vapu. Your next question is, should we love Krishna or love the spiritual master: You cannot go to Krishna directly, loving Him. It is common sense that if Krishna is the object of your love, His pet dog is also the object of your love. Friends meet friends and if the friend is with his dog the gentleman pats his dog first, is it not? So the man becomes automatically pleased, his dog being patted. I have seen it in your country. The conclusion is this: Without pleasing the spiritual master he cannot please Krishna. If anyone tries to please Krishna directly, he's fool number one. Hoping this meets you and your good wife, Krishna Tulasi dasi, in good health and devotional mood.

Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/sda

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: March 07, 2024 01:51AM

It has been a long time since I last posted in here. It almost makes me laugh to think how abuse can turn the mind of a person into such a lunatic state. I say laugh, because abusers are not worth being taken so seriously. There were times I almost envied the life of people in the cult who had it easy and were not used and abused. Missed the safety of the group and the few so called decent friends. But nothing equals the freedom of the mind. Those bliss addicts must constantly kiss the feet of the Elite devotees. Jump as high and low as they are told.

Slavery should be pittied. No amount of dopamine created by so called spiritual happiness is worth giving up your will, mind, time, energy… to a criminal narcissist such as butler. The days of victimhood are over. Time to embrace the victory of leaving a hell that they call spiritual life. What a parasitic mind program this process is. I have dreams of the group almost every week. But it is all right. Something we learn to live with. Anyway, it has been a great pleasure meeting you all in here. All the best on the book project. Best wishes to all on your journey. This forum has been a very enriching experience.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: March 07, 2024 01:58AM

Quote

Letter from Syamasundara dasa
From the Archives Ashé Journal #2.3, 2003.

Statue of Shrila Prabhupada, ISKCON Juhu, Mumbai (Os Rúpias)
Statue of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, ISKCON Juhu, Mumbai (by Os Rúpias)
Please accept my best wishes, and most humble obeisances. All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Where would any of us be had He not so mercifully come to the West? What would any Westerner know about Krishna, Vrindavan, the Maha Mantra, or Prasadam? So many things…

I was living on the East coast of the United States in 1976 when I heard that Prabhupada was going to Honolulu. I was ready to “get warm”, and also spend some time with my most merciful Guru. I flew to California to visit the devotees in San Francisco; my old stomping grounds. Jayananda was there, and so many devotees that had helped shape my Spiritual life. Then I flew to Honolulu, and was delighted to see Prabhupada again. I wasn’t planning on staying for long, but I got to sleep just outside His door on the balcony. I could lay down, and tilt my head back, and watch Him working at His desk almost the whole night long. He did so much translating there at that Temple.

One morning I think it was May 1976; Siddhasvarupa dasa came to visit. I have never had good interactions with Him, and I honor Him from a distance. I had met Him in Lahaina, Maui previously, and had always been treated with disrespect from Him. I was pretty “delicate”, and have always had a very long sikha. I used to hear comments from Siddha about it, and the attachment He thought I had about it whenever He saw me. Prabhupada said not to worry. That there were worse things to have attachment for. I heard Him say that ton several occasions when someone criticized one of us for the length of our sikhas.

One day Prabhupada was trying to gently persuade Siddha to “get with the program”. Siddha used to actually challenge Prabhupada; that maybe Siddha’s ideas were superior to His Spiritual Master’s plans. It was really immature, and un-believable how He carried on. Anyway one day I was standing by Prabhupada’s window over-looking His private garden; when Siddha came in. He was whining about all of the “pretty boys”, and Homos in ISKCON. Prabhupada just let Him vent, and didn’t say much of anything. After a while Siddha just left. He didn’t get the reaction He had wanted.

Prabhupada sat at His desk for a while.

I was feeling really angry at Siddha, but also self-conscious about my own sexuality.

Prabhupada just sat there quietly, and deep in thought for awhile. He looked over at me briefly and said, “What is the difference if a person is held in this Material World by a gold chain, or a silver chain?”

I said “I don’t know Prabhupada.”

He then said “I am glad that Siddha Swarupa is chanting, and reading my books.

“But He is always focusing on everybody else, and not on the Supreme Person.


“That’s the important thing.”

From the early days in San Francisco I saw so many people come to the Temple, Kirtans, etc… There were many Gay, and Lesbian people. Prabhupada was always aware that these people were among His audience.

He always seemed to not give it a whole lot of notice. I know it probably seemed a bit “strange” to Him at some level, but He didn’t like any of His disciples to make comment about it. I hope this little slice of ISKCON History is interesting to you. I know that Prabhupada knew my sexual identity; but I never, ever felt anything but love; equal in every way with the love He displayed, and felt for any other person so fortunate to come to Krishna Consciousness in this lifetime. That’s the real thing, isn’t it?

Your friend, supporter, and servant.
Syamasundara dasa

From: [ashejournal.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: March 07, 2024 04:52AM

That sounds about right. Everyone's a pure devotee, but not quite everyone, only me, and be careful about that Siddhswarup you have a hard-on for; he's a pure devotee, but...

All that "you're not the body" shit is a bit hard to follow. The swami says he's in his pictures; his followers need a special haircut to be "clean" or whatever, dress in Indian clothes, and separate women and men. Butler's worried there are too many homos lurking about. it seems like all these fools are way more worried and concerned about "the body" than they admit to.

Bhaktivedantas writing, lectures, and casual talks are chock-full of anti-homosexual rhetoric, anti-blacks, anti-women etc. It's preposterous for Shyamasundar to state that Bhaktivedanta "...seemed to not give it a whole lot of notice". BULLSHIT. Bullshit. and another small pile of bullshit. Like all the shit they all peddle.

But all in all a nice slice of history once again showing that Butler had a style/agenda/motive that was pretty evident even when his own guru was around.


Hence, run.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: XKRISHNA ()
Date: March 07, 2024 10:24AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's terrific, XKRISHNA! Very brave of you to
> take LSD with a broken brother. I'd have myself an
> unforgettable panic attack and stop loving
> anything or anyone altogether! It's great to find
> a deep connection with others, for most it never
> happens.
>
> RUN.

If you want, I will introduce you to this man, FORREST. Assuming he'd be willing to meet you. Just say the word; send me a private message if you'd care you and it'll be easy.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: March 07, 2024 10:52PM

You should see if he wants to contribute to the cult testimonials book. It's completely anonymous and he can make a difference to a lot of folks both in and out of the hare krishna groups.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: XKRISHNA ()
Date: March 07, 2024 11:27PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You should see if he wants to contribute to the
> cult testimonials book. It's completely anonymous
> and he can make a difference to a lot of folks
> both in and out of the hare krishna groups.

I did. He's not willing to go on the record with anything or anyone.

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