Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 26, 2022 07:04AM

OMG! Missed part 5. What an absolute actor and liar this guy is. We all know how he treated his gay disciples.
I doubt that any devotee would openly dare decalre they have auch tendencis to butker or any other devotee after his lectures.
This is just way too much. How does this liar live with himself?
I must say that he is really good with words but he ain’t fooling us.


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: April 26, 2022 06:16PM

If one accepts the "infallibility" or "added value" "spiritual" of the Indian philosophical system, the set, there are further pitfalls in accepting it. So when one stays or navigates within this system:

- the trap of intellectualism - learning the writings, philosophical understanding without even "realization" but reference to reality. Reading the textbook "How to spend the night in the lion's cage" is different from putting it into practice. Or war. Combat experience is gained in a real life threat. Hence the difference between an experienced and an inexperienced soldier. Where, in turn, comes another phenomenon of "death like a slice of bread". Or Stalin's "one death is a tragic and a million is a statistic".

Or in hospital.

Loss of sensitivity. Service in a factory. Production line, healing line. And then the same trends. Poor grandma is flooding the corridor with urine and screams that she is afraid of death while the doctor is groping the sexy nurse. "Life conquers death."

- a trap of convenience - subsidies from supporters, fame, recognition - it's hard to give up, you have to tolerate, for example, pedophiles because it gets unpleasant and you can lose money

- party / sect trap - sense of belonging to a group - on the level of self-esteem, identification or -attention - energy (group energetic)

And other.

Truth wins Wrote:
> OMG! Missed part 5. What an absolute actor and
> liar this guy is. We all know how he treated his
> gay disciples.
> I doubt that any devotee would openly dare decalre
> they have auch tendencis to butker or any other
> devotee after his lectures.
> This is just way too much. How does this liar live
> with himself?
> I must say that he is really good with words but
> he ain’t fooling us.
> []

Let's check the consistency:


(1a)yoga spiritual master (1b)Jagad Guru (2)Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa, the Science of Identity Foundation is publishing this series of questions and answers where Jagad Guru reveals the essence of yoga wisdom in a clear and (3)logical manner, allowing people from (4a)any background or belief system to contemplate on and (4b)apply these authoritative teachings in their personal lives.

1a. Yoga, not Vedanta
1b. Parishat from Varanasi? Still Vedanta but Madvacarya? But not Caitanya.
2. From A.C.Bhaktivedanta. Bhakti-vedanta. Caitanya. Line from Bhaktisiddhanta (Gaudiya Math), after Bhaktivinode Thakur.
3. Logical manner? Nyaya and samkhya?
4. Vegan eggs on Easter?

But the rest of the message is ok.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2022 06:20PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 26, 2022 09:11PM

I believe that at the end of the day, we cannot truly interfere much in the scripts that are written for each individual soul.
Maybe I cannot truly judge either not seeing the full picture. As we come into this realm with amnesia and so much is hidden from us.
We are just given many different stories. Each culture has its own stories and beliefs.
What will always remain a mystery is why the gods of religions who are supposed to be the Lord of the Universe need our worship and love.
We enter these programs without asking ourselves any questions because we are looking for solace and answers.
We step in blindly, solely because of the way it makaes us feel inside. How these practices give us some hope, the mystical experiences… And ultimately the promise of liberation from the material world of suffering, which was initially built by these same god(s).
Problem, reaction, solution. Hegelian dialectic.
The fact that most paths tell you not to look anywhere else and lock you in, is quite suspicious IMHO.
I have been thinking recently how when I imagined the pastimes of of Krishna on earth, I would see them through the paintings in the books.
All looking the same, beautful clothing and scenery…
I could not even imagine in flesh like us. Kind of like a Disney animated movie.
Ideally Bhakti Yoga should be a fantasy land of imagination, woship and love. With a bonifed guru who does not have emotional baggage (growing up in qualified devotee family without abuse and trauma) and a covered heart.
However Iskcon and SoI have transformed it into something else. And many of us ( myself included) entered the path with huge baggage and not a perfect heart.
I admit that I was possibly one of the patients of the SoI mental hospital. It is a good thing I was not put in a position of leadership as I would have possibly sucked at it too big time.
I can see how so many are not able to leave or feel that they have been saved.
I have never encountered a program that is so hard to get rid of. Once we have been invoved for many years, this path truly follows us for the rest of our lives.
This is why some come and go all the time. And other members rejoice when they aee you after a few years.
They are happy thay you have not been totally absorbed by the world of Maya.
The unseen forces keep reminding you of the good times with the group. Of the bliss and peace you felt at times.
Putting many in miserable situations that make them miss their devotee years. Pushing them into unhappy situations going from one relation to the next and addictions…
Carrying the guilt and doubt that they have missed out on the greatest opportunity of their lives. That they will have to come back again and again until they surrender and accept that they are eternal slaves of a Supreme being, who has created them for his own enjoyment.
The fear and doubts that will follow some us, are as bad as the abuse that we have once experience in the cult.
Suffering is here so that we can turn to these gods and accept these programs.
Nothing is as simple as it seems. Even though butler could have for sure been a key MK ultra agent, he is not that powerful.
The real program is Krishna consciousness. butler himself has been programmed by the path. So it is a program within a program.
Now imagine how hard it is to free yourslef from both a very powerful religious path plus a very expert manipulative, narcissit, pathological liar… guru.
This is why all that we can have for the followers, is a deep compassion.
The battle to free oneslef from religious programs and addictions is very difficult.
Once you do, you are truly punished by the feelings that will always follow you.
Krishna Consc. is both a religious program plus addiction bliss.
We can only pray that those who are being used and abused can one day realize it.
And those who are treated well, or have separated themselves from the abuse, groups and have the best of both world, are fine in their imaginary krishna disneyland.
The vedic version of the Arabian nights.
Krishna Consc wants to make us believe that we have solved the whole puzzle. That the mystery is solved. That we do not have to look any further.
We know how we got here, we know how the mind and senses operate, we know how to be happy, we know who god is, we know how to get out of the material prison…
How can one not fall for it? And get lazy. Not look any further for answers.
I am sorry if I share my insights as I know that some or many are not fans.
I am on a journey of discovering deeper truths and maybe some of the things I have come to realize can help one or two people.
I am thankful to all who are making an effort to put butler in his place and curb his arrogance, which is possibly much greater than mine.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: April 26, 2022 10:47PM

It's called damage control. SIF's PR team needed to put something out there online to cover their tracks as always. These were posted on Medium at the height of Tulsi's political campaign and were 100% developed b their PR team to cover all basis. Tulsi is recorded in a number of places stating she never heard her guru speak a single ill word. What a load of crap.

Now she is on Twitter making a big deal about schools teaching kids about sexuality and sexual orientation etc. I knew more about the sex acts of fringe homosexual practices, bestiality and carpophelia from Butlers lectures at age 9 than the average kid today going to a public school and learning how to respect and acknowledge a wide range of sexual and gender roles, respectfully, I might add. Butler did not treat his gay disciples nor the topic of sexuality with an iota of respect, seriousness or common sense. Let alone sensitivity.

They have been doing, like ISKCON and Gaudiya Math, a varying degree of damage control since the turn of the century. To prop up his advocacy of giving Brahman Initiation and the obvious challenges that other Vaishnava groups passed to Saraswati thakur, he spent an inordinate amount of energy trying to establish the "superiority" of the Gaudiya Brahmin. Even though, siddhantically, brahminism has little to nothing to do with most bhakti cults, let alone the Chaitanya saints cult of "I am not a brahmin, I am not a sidhra". And for a cult that speaks so much of not being the body, what difference does it make what color cloth you wear or if you sport a brahmin thread and sikha?

Butler's group admits to taking out his lectures from circulation that were "inflammatory" and "offensive". The question is, why is a self-proclaimed representative of the all-loving god speaking in such way to begin with? What great teaching does it impart to call a group of people derogatory names and emotionally and psychologically scar followers who have a particular sexual orientation? Or why smash disciples who take inspiration in their so-called krishna consciousness form other gurus? You would think an authentic guru would be happy wherever his disciple is able to maintain and get inspiration to continue to "never forget krishna and always remember him". But alas, as all things in these cults, it's about power trips to control followers.

Butler is an expert, like many devotees, at spreading false lies, fear-mongering, conspiracy theories, anti-science, anti any other group and even anti other groups like their own. Bhaktisiddhnata was also like this. He spent all his guru days criticizing other Gaudiya vaishnava groups, claiming what he was presenting was somehow superior and better while making things up and being petrified to sit in the same room as his own mother for fear of getting sexually aroused. The big boogieman "maya" is their "satan" and abstraction of evil. The mind and body is always to blame. Bad karma etc. Their solution instead of putting on your big boy pants and taking responsibility? Blame.

Butler and Bhaktivedanta had a knack for garnering cheap laughs from their followers while being vulgar or insensitive about topics like rape, sexuality etc. They preached "equality" but in name only. They preached not being the body, but this only went as deep as their words.

Bhaktivedanta spent lecture after lecture blaming the "demons". Who were these "demons"? Basically, anyone who rationally opposed their group's teachings. In many places such demons were "atheists" or other rational thinkers. Instead of actually trying to discuss/convince/diologue, they do as all these "great" acharyas have done: Slap a negative label on it and move on. Mayavadhi, impersonalists, demons, mlechaas, etc etc. I have shown many links to lectures like this. Even in the writings of bhaktivinode there is mention of any deovtee not striving for manjari bhava as being an "ass-like" devotee. If that is not the height of arrogance I don't know what is.

Their whole scriptural rhetoric is a big blame game of demons and "outsiders" the whole vedic religion is based on a rhetoric of "crushing" the outsiders. After digging through miles worth of total literary trash, the average sincere thinking person will come out of the "vedas" and any gurus lecture with 2 things of potential value to them:

1. Hypothetically, you are not this body.
2. Love god.

Everything else is a monumental pile of hogwash nonsense packaged, repackaged, reassembled, interpreted variously by tom, dick and harry and vomited back out.

And how has "not being your body" manifest for Butler et al? Untold millions to maintain him and his wife's bodies. In ISKCON and Gaudiya Math it's endlessly trying to justify the Swamis and other "stalwart" guru's words about women, blacks people, sex, and all manner of mundane nonsense that modern science has sufficiently answered for. Yet, by hook or by crook they will try to shoe-horn it into some naive vedic fold. If the veda has any scientific rigor and method it's been lost on most rational minds throughout time. Even ancient Inidan scholars like Shankar and Ramanuja interpret such works so divergently that it's laughable they read the same texts. as with all things in life, use your brain and take it all with a grain of salt.

And how has "love god" manifest for the average devotee? Chanting and bouncing around to a medieval papa smurf god and gobbling up silly stories from the equivalent of fairy tale books. Replete with flying swan airplanes, talking animals and intergalactic veena players and multi-headed gods and demons.

Butler and Bhaktivedanta BOTH took titles on their already long ass names to bolster their posts. "Prabhupada" (Gaudiya math were very critical that he adopted the moniker of their guru), "Paramahamsa" "Jagad Guru", "His Divine Grace...". Holy fuckign shit guys. Any person with an ounce of air in their skull can easily see the complete lack of humility in these clowns. A real saintly and humble person would never accept any worship, sitting on thrones, long complicated titles and their special brand of snuff tobacco and Chinese food delivery. 2 main qualities pop up to my mind when I hear the lectures of these "acharyas": Arrogant and Delusional.

Anything after or in between those two words is simply a show put on for their disciples to sell them what they are delusional enough to think has any rational and redeeming value. In the general sense for this group it was to try to mesmerize and convince people that singing some songs will "elevate", "purify" and give you "god realization". Which is code for 2 basic things: That god is everything, or that god lives on some distant cow planet where you will one day be born as a 12 year old farm girl who helps god run off with his lover to play eternally. Take your pick.

It's fine to chant and practice some of this stuff superficially as a fun way to be peaceful, make friends and enjoy good food. But anything deeper or beyond that and you are 100% in a cult. The kids who grew up in Butler's schools in the PI have had assorted results. Some stayed in the cult, some stayed in the periphery and some went even deeper. I wonder which of them were happiest?
I can speak to myself, I became happiest when I fully abandoned this path. it was a dysfunctional burden on my psyche and life in general. It became old going to kirtans and listening to the lectures. It gnawed at me what I was hearing and seeing and I saw no real examples of anything I wished for my own life or the life of my kids. And while I can admit that life has been at times hard, confusing or disruptive, I always feel I have a choice and it's up t me to fix things in a rational way. I also feel less constrained and free to think more personally about the stuff I believe in about life/god/self etc. I don't feel a rigidness in what comes my way as a realization and I don't feel I need to shoehorn it into the philosophy to "see it properly". I see it how I see it and how it makes sense to me without needing to subscribe to an ideology that makes little sense to me.

But I did not learn that from gurukula or any number of lectures. I learned it by believing in myself and trusting the natural process of how my mind adapts to life as I mature, learn, make mistakes and grow. Something I felt I was unable to ever do as a devotee. Maybe others have their own way to make it all fit in with their life, but for me, I felt I saw and read and learned so much about the history of this cult that I could never in good faith sit in another lecture or kirtan and just gobble it all up in some haze of "love". it just felt fake and forced and artificial.

That said, I applaud those who find their way in it. It's your faith, your beliefs and you are welcome to have them. As much as I am welcome to have my ideas. Still, I fail to see the point in much of it and I do see that it has mostly become a cultural appropriation and white-washed cult that is struggling to stay relevant and survive against all odds. But it's managed. And that's something. Then again, so has the Batman franchise. Some people are endlessly and easily amused by the same mindless garbage. The tired and true, as they say.

I see value in reading the texts of assorted religions to find their common thread. and in general, I have found it. It asks us to be as good as we can be, cause as little disturbance as we can and mind our own life and affairs. Basically take responsibility for our self. The stoics call this mastery over your reasoned choice. We can only control our reaction to the onslaught of life. We cannot control most aspects of life. We have limited control and contentment is key. Service is a powerful way to access a deeper sense of fulfillment, aka happiness. Otherwise, yes, most of what we equate as happiness is a by product of some basic interaction of senses and brain synapsis related to pleasure and pain.

This makes things simpler for me. I dwell less on ritualism and hypothetical and more on what I actually can manage and attend to. For me, god has little if anything to do with my day to day life. I see no purpose in dwelling, worshipping or praying to someone or something that is not in any way reciprocating in a functional, tangible dynamic. Sure, I can create abstractions of ways that I feel some sort of god in my life, but it takes effort to do so and I see no point in it. Me singing and chanting or praying and worshipping does nothing to the rest of my reality. It's literally all in my head.

One can say god is love, we can meditate and acknowledge that all beauty in the world is god and be grateful for the good things in our life as the grace of god. But by that same token we must acknowledge that all evil, sadness, and all manner of horrid shit is also gods great gift. God created a material world, god created karma, god created reincarnation, god made us forget, created "maya" and a mind and senses etc. So you know, thanks for that too god. Again, I see no functional reason to pray, worship and deify a blue playboy, trickster, long-haired-lovely, blue colored wife stealer.

And I see many simpler methods to access similar states of peace, contentment and happiness. I think for early humans ritualism had a way of creating a sense of control and security about things. Something you can always depend on following some formula. But we already have a lot of that built into how society unfolds and progresses. We have our rituals and things we do that give us a sense of belonging and being a part of something. So we don't need medieval rituals and methods.

Fear not. One thing is for sure. Regardless if you believe or do not believe in this stuff, God is either merciful and sees you are sincerely trying to understand and seek truth, or you are easily amused with simplistic sing-song cults. In eithercse. be that Gaudiya Vaishnavism or Abrahamic religions, most such faiths believe that "mercy" and "grace" are the only methods of coming to know god. Not by ones own effort. So no matter if you are Jaghai and Madhai or Haridas Thakur, Grace will come to you when god well damn pleases, by their estimation and doctrine. If that is the case, we have no control over attracting gods grace and mercy any more than we do stopping a bowl movement.

Running is good.

If it interests you:



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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identit
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 27, 2022 02:18AM

When it comes to the R rated lectures, shame of the stupid parents and those who run the PI schools to let kids listen to that crap.
That shows how brainwashed and mindless these people are and how irrational butler is.
How do you even mention such things to people who are supposed not to think about sex and hear about it much?
It was absolutely not necessary to make a point. He could have been much milder.
He is a showman. He wants to get some laughs and be a cool charismatic dude.
Would a well wisher of all beings, expose kids to such graphic stuff like the bath houses…
Why would a kid be allowed to listen to that stuff? Blows my mind.
Do you think he would ever appologize for exposing kids to this language and damage them?
Imagine if you are secretely a homosexual and keep hearing the man who is supposed to love you, speak in this way?
There is absolutely nothing he can say or do in order to correct the damages.
Relating to god, discovering the truth… is a very personal journey.
We should not impose it upon others or make others suffer because of it.
I know people who believe Jesus is the truth and that the bible is the only scripture that tells us the story of this realm.
That person does not even care to know if I share the beliefs or if I am even interested.
They just take it for granted that I too must accept that Jesus descended as a human being. And that he will return again.
After my cult programming, I spent years thinking others may hold the truth. I had some help along the way and many of these people held some pieces of the puzzle.
I would say that it did for sure help me get rid of having one single set in stone belief.
When it comes to accepting suffering as a gift, not all souls feel equally about it and can deal with it the same way.
I always wanted to exit this reality since I was a kid. And I am extremely sensitive and allergic to the material world.
I do not truly get the complexities of human relations and always felt more drawn to animals.
Each soul is very unique in their psychic and physical strength. And we all carry different gifts as well as faults.
This is what makes it interesting. Uniformity would make this place quite boring.
And at the same time, our differences make it quite challenging. So we are often looking for souls we can relate to much eaiser. And sometimes we can find so called soulmates.
Before one tries to figure out what and who god is, one must know themself fully.
The innerverse is so complex in itself that it is fascinating. And we keep changing and evolving.
There are so many amazing tools and teachings out there. How sad to dismiss them all and just stick to one absolute truth.
The individual path is not for everybody. Many require the security of a set belief and the group.
The path I have chosen is he hardest thing I have ever done. But at the same time the rewards may equal the pain.
Becoming an adult on a soul level and gradually trusting our own instincts is quite amazing.
I feel it is pathetic to knock on guru’s door every day and ask them how to live and act.
To think that bellord, midgett, tibby… know best because they are so called brahmans is also very amusing.
Some go to bellord for marriage advice while he has handed his own wife to a supposedly sannyasi guru. I am not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Getting rid of fears is the best and most important thing any human being can do in this lifetime. Fear is the greatest ennemy.
Even though I hate suffering, I always try to overcome my fears. No matter what consequences might come with it. Yet fear is the driving force of that cult and not love.
If the creator of this sttrange reality is the one who created me, I should not fear that being.
Until I get the absolute comfirmation that I am to god what a dog is to humans, I am not going to bow down 100 times a day and surrender my will to that being and his representative.
Because let us be quite honest, this is what Krishna Consc. does. It is a domestication and training camp for souls.
They say god loves you unconditionally and yet they will kick you out if you do not abide by the rules.
I trust that we know nothing about the real story of this place and what goes on behind the scenes.
I am rather sure that it must be 10000 times more strange and scifi that we can imagine.
Knowing this now, makes me more humble. After a lifetime of searching for answers and absolutely mind blowing experiences.
It is very tricky to detect how religious paths are disempowering because of the inner rewards that they offer.
I love that I am in my own private world now and that noone truly thinks like me or shares my views.
I just know from experience that this place can be at times a ruthless jungle and I now wear more solid shields.
The cult of butler should be a great experience for us all that we can never let our guards down. And this is not me being paranoid.
When you get treated like this in spiritual communities, what to speak of the outside world.
In our lives we face many moments when we are on the cross and like Jesus, we ask god “Why have you forsaken me”?
There are times everybody lets us down or avoid us and we have no support.
The ones that love us and support us, can leave this world anytime.
Like it or not, the only person we are stuck with at all times, is ourself.
But Krishna Consc tells us to just trust god and guru. To find our strength in them.
We must sit around and have this toxic inner dialogue:
“ I am the most fallen, I deserve everything that happens to me and even worse…”
Then give some clueless narcissist leaders the permission to give you a free psych and personality evaluation.
Tell you that you are selfish because you are a loner and find fauls in you all day long.
Give away your will, your life, time, money, friends, identity… so that you can be a false ego free lover of god.
Then when you leave the cult or are kidked out, you find yourself with nothing because you have lost yourslef to the cult.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 27, 2022 06:33AM

This open letter from Lalita is one of the best things I have ever read on butler.
Also what is the story about him coming face to face with authorities in 1995?
Never heard about it.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: April 27, 2022 04:45PM


Important position

> []
> []

Truth wins Wrote:
> To think that bellord, midgett, tibby… know best
> because they are so called brahmans is also very
> amusing.

Now they are "Sirs".

> Some go to bellord for marriage advice while he
> has handed his own wife to a supposedly sannyasi
> guru. I am not sure if I should laugh or cry.

And what about "ius primae noctis"???

"Can I marry her, Sir?"."First let ME try.."

Truth wins Wrote:
> This open letter from Lalita is one of the best
> things I have ever read on butler.
> Also what is the story about him coming face to
> face with authorities in 1995?
> Never heard about it.
> []

Cinematic punch line "where's the f*ing money"....

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: April 27, 2022 10:39PM

Great Vedic Pluralism: []

Some great things to look forward to in India: []



How will we know when "Krishna wants us to be violent"?:

Will Tulsi gabbard tell us? Buteler? Swami Boo Boo?

“It is far better to discharge one’s prescribed duties, even though they may be faulty, than another’s duties. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous.” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-gita, 3.55)

Who prescribes "duties" to you? If your execution of "duty" results in the suffering of others, god forbid we suggest a different "duty" to you. If a police officer kneels on the neck of a black man, we should just let it happen cause everyone is engaging in their "prescribed" duties? If we ask that police officer to change his line of work to say plumbing or being a soccer coach, are we disrupting the great "law" of dharma/karma????

You see guys. I can take almost any quote from the Gita and break it down for you if you like. These texts are an amalgamation of wise-sounding tid-bits that mostly, in about 80% of cases, amount to nothing more than just that: Sounds good on paper. Lacks practical, functional application in any meaningful way.

Chaitanya is said to have once approached an illiterate brahmin who was crying and "reading" the gita. When asked why he was having such a reaction if he could not even read the text, the brahmin answered, "Every time I sit in front of this book I see Krishna standing in front of me and I think how merciful he is and I cry". To that the chaitanya saint acknowledged that the brahmin was a pure devotee of god.

Guys, these types of sentimental, useless stories abound. A man who cannot read the text of the gita but is crying is called a sentimentalist and an emotionally unstable person. That's it.

There are many people who get emotionally charged and sentimental about spirituality and "love" and all manner of sentiments. There are people who can barely watch a commercial for starving kids in Africa without shedding a tear. That's all fine and dandy, but we cannot in good faith say that such people are "more compassionate" because they have a sentimental reaction to pain, suffering, love, devotion etc. You certainly cannot verify that they are dearer to god or "see" god or "hear" god or "love" god in any more meaningful ways than a rational church-goer who has their emotional shit together.

If you took 10 devotees from assorted years of practicing this cult ideology, you would gain no measurable difference between their level of happiness, contentment and mental stability. You would certainly not be able to pinpoint what specifically each person is doing differently that results in a measurable difference in such abstractions. At best you would see that one person has memorized a few more verses, is more adept at speaking to others about the philosophy and perhaps chants a few more rounds than the next guy.

Butler was charismatic. So was his guru. They had sway over people when they spoke. Much of that sway was actually at the expenses of painting the outside world as "may" and anyone outside the cult as "demons". They were expert in creating mental division. And if there is one thing humans LOVE, it's a clear division. Hence we have the political party systems we have and all manner of endless religions claiming to be the "best" one.

That is the essence of what these cult ideologies produce: a legion of people who want to highlight the differences between the good guys and the bad guys. In the krishna cults, the good guys are the guys who accept the blue god. If you like the green god, you are a decent person, but not as good as the ones who like the blue god. If you like Jesus, good for you, but hey, did you know, Jesus went to India and was initiated by Babaji Woo Woo Swami and was really a devotee of the blue god...

And so the story goes for ever. Till you unplug yourself from such naivety and face the reality: We are all just humans. Bumbling about with no answer better than the next person. We have experiences. Those experiences shape us, give us ideas, dictate our life in some way for some time and then we explore other ways, other ideas. That is how humanity grows, changes, evolves, progresses, learns etc. NOT by adopting archaic "vedic" ideas in some naive hope that it will "reveal" some deeper truth about reality.

If krishna consciousness does give some insight, it is simply by virtue of it amalgamating the semi-rational ideas of other philosophical systems like Samkhya, yoga etc. But I hope we can all agree that the buck stops with the "majari" bhava stuff and the crazy myths. Those have symbolism, at best. Chanting has some calming effect, at best. Dancing is fun, eating good food is fun. Hanging out with people can be fun. Service is beneficial. These are not notions or ideas exclusive or discovered by krishna devotees.

Butler telling you that you are "not your body" and teaching "mantra meditation" is not exclusive to his cult. ALL RELIGIONS/CULTS/SPIRITUAL systems teach a version of this. All of them. Christians and Islam believe you die and go to heaven or hell. In Heaven, you get a "new" fresh body and enjoy the pastoral beauty of heavenly life with god at the center. Islam also teaches some variations of this. Buddhism also has notions of heaven, hell and assorted gods and demons.

Reincarnation and karma is not unique to this cult. And it certainly has no origin in a blue god.

Chanting, dancing and congregating to glorify god is done by EVER RELIGION. And even the swami has stated multiple times that it does not matter what name of god you chant (he certainly did not believe this).

Krishna Consciousness is not "vedic". So using that as a sell point of it's so-called "antiquity" is flawed and a lie. There is nothing relatable to the veda and the puranic epics. That the puranas weave assorted vedic gods into their epics does not make them vedic. Nor does the veda clearly specify any particular methods for loving god save for fire sacrifices and worship of nature deities, i.e. pagan tribalism of cattle herders. Certainly nothing of functional use to modern humans.

The great offering of the hare krishna cult is singing and chanting in public. This has been received with cultural amusement at best. So it's "success" as a method for giving "god realization" is at best seen as a cultural oddity and aberration by most people. Even in India, you will be started down and looked at as an oddity as you ramble through town chanting loudly. It has been tolerated and socially accepted as a freedom of religious expression.

In private venues, it attracts mostly what I described above: Religious sentimentalists. People who like to sit with their eyes closed and sway to the kritan while they imagine themselves having some sort of "relationship" and "love" for the blue god. Functionally, such people have to go to work, make money, raise kids and buy groceries like the rest of us. Once a week they can "destress" in the company of a few devotees and let lose and chant. Great! Go for it. But just know, that as soon as you are going deeper into it all, you will find a mega mountain of irrationality.

People think it's cute to worship and glorify the elephant-headed Ganesh. Devotees don't even bat an eye in accepting that an elephant man wrote their scriptures. They just accept it. So pretty much off the bat, these cults ask you to suspend your disbelief and skepticism. That is wrong, dangerous and serves little functional use. Why would I ever accept that an elephant-headed god broke his tusk to write a book? But yet, reject the fact that such a book may have (definitely has) been repeatedly interpreted, re-written, added to and molded to fit assorted religious agendas?

To the average ISKCON deovtee, prabhuadas books are FLAWLESS. Never mind he wrote them high as fuck on snuff tobacco at 2AM and his pervert criminal disciples helped edit them. Never mind they are chalk full of bad science, flawed concepts, and what amounts to philosophical fluff in most cases. Never mind they read like propaganda books for his cult. Never mind they resulted in a cult that even within his lifetime was falling apart and riddled with child abuse, child marriages, misappropriation of funds, illegal fundraising tactics, scams, murders and child molesters.

Then we have Butler. A guy who built his career on breaking his religious vows, stealing property from his guru, playing politics with is disciples, abusing his followers for his own pleasure and gain and marrying his own disciple. Add a few years of drug money laundering, international scams operated by his disciples and all manner of attempts to cover up his true persona by his followers who intimidate journalists, use lawsuits to silence ex-followers and support his tin-foil habit.

And in Gaudiya Math you'd be hard-pressed to find a sannyasi guru who is not sporting a rolex watch and at least 2 gold rings and a chain. And their followers swoon in their presence cause they speak of Radha krishna lila with an extra twist of intimacy as they describe radhas swollen breasts and krishna ogling 12 year old girls. Jai jai jai!

Meanwhile, REAL 12 year old kids and younger are growing up in this mind-churning mess. Literally unable to ever get themselves out. Thinking of themselves as demons for even thinking of "enjoying" a fucking lollipop lest it's offered to krishna.

Run comrades. God gave you a brain. Use it or lose it.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 28, 2022 03:59AM

Imagine some beings sitting around and coming up with all these stories. Wondering how far they can push the enveloppe with naive humans.
The joke is on us truly for blindly accepting all the mythologies.
I think I would be quite good at the job since I like writing as you can see it.
They have highjacked our imagination by feeding us prefabricated stories. Lies mixed with truths.
At the end of the day, Islam has kept it a bit more real. They do not have that many far out myths.
Just straight swords and bloodshed to impose their religion and plenty of martyrs.
When love and friendship totally left my life, I became free. It forced me to rely on myself alone.
Being loved and accepted is the last thing I care about. Am just a tourist here and I no longer look for my tribe.
I think I have experienced enough abuse both from humans, gods and demons.
I wish I had always been the way I am now. My life could have been an absolute wonder.
I cannot even phatom how the love I felt for this path kept me in the prison of masochism for wo many years.
And I know that this will offend many. I do not think we need the love of higher beings. I think they need ours.
The same way butler pretends he is atmarama but he could no longer wash an underwear or make a smoothie for himself.
If my love and devotion did not matter, why have been punished so harshly for no longer accepting being a slave?
I spent years thinking I was a devotee but in fact I was just a dog in an obedience class. And we waited for the treats and hear the leaders praise us:
Good boooooooooy! Good giiiiiiiirl!
Yes the spiritual life at SoI was an amazing adventure. It thought me that I should have watched more animal behavior videos to survive that jungle.
Yes we were so advanced spiritually. Acting like a pack of wolves where only Alphas have it good.
Such vaishnavas!
I no longer believe in PURE and unconditional love. Not even from beings we call god.
Love is a very sweet and cozy emotion. I never knew that one could live without it.
Thank goodness for the gods and gurus, that all humans are not like me. Because they would have to close shop.
butler would be toast if he can no longer vamparize his followers.
Spiritual Love has at one point been the nectar I would have died for.
But I leave it to the SoI bliss heads. They really need it in order to stand the lies and abuse.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 28, 2022 08:59PM

I have been attacked through my psyche since I was 7 years old.
And I know for sure that the gita does not even scratch the surface when it comes to the complexities of how our minds, senses and bodies function.
The teachings of the vedas give some minor guidance that can free one to a certain extent. The whole truth and picture will never be revealed.
Those teachings are like letting you in a mansion and telling you that you can only enter certain rooms only. The rest of the house is off limits.
Because the teachings of other religions are more shallow, those who get to krishna consc think they have hit the jackpot and puff up.
Getting proud because of some mystical experiences and transcendental bliss.
Next thing you know, your forehead is on the ground 24/7 and you have to give up your will in exchange for all the false promises and bliss.
It is freedom mixed with slavery. Same way that the love is mixed with fear.
I have been attacked via my psyche 3 times in a way that is equal to a 15 feet great white shark attack.
The fact that I am still alive is a miracle. But no krishna guru is able to see that these are psychic attacks because they have zero clue.
However they will blame it on Karma or one going crazy because of offenses.
I have battled those forces face to face and I now know exactly how my psyche works. I know that how we are being manipulated.
It is not something that I can teach to anyone. However I know that we hold much more power within us that we are made to believe.
butler and krishna consc were like some very useful basic training for me. It has been a stepping stone. If I had stayed there, I may be an advanced doormat by now. I would cry harder for krishna and love my fellow man. Offer the left chick and let people punch me in the nose.
I can understand how some can feel happiness in the state of being a urinal. Because this is what is being thaught in bhakti literally.
If they unrinate in you, do not use your enthusiasm.
Maybe true power is to reach that point that you don’t mind being a walking urinal. I may have missed that golden opportunity.
If that resonates with some on a soul level, go for it. You can always take a bath in the Yamuna to clean up.
If we have a warrior side to us, then that attitude is a huge betrayal to our nature.
We know best who and what we are. We do not have to let a path or a guru decide that for us.
Imagine going to a restaurant and asking the waiter:
“What do you think I like or should eat”?
The cult of butler keeps people in a state of infancy and your whole obsession is to be pleasing to a guru who possibly don’t give a damn about you.
The fact that some people are still in the cult after being traumatized and abused for so long, is because the mantras and being busy slaving is like wake and bake.
You must take that cannabis every day in order to stay oblivious to the pain you feel on a soul level. They tell you that you deserve it all.
However letting others abuse us so freely, is very damaging and leaves deep scars.
But you have no way to heal other than forcing yourself to be humble about it.
When you leave and the high is taken away from you, reality hits. The wounds open up and all that anger and hurt comes up.
All the times that you felt like saying Eff off to the abusers but had to shut up makes you explode.
Then one will turn to street drugs, booze, therapy… or maybe even suicide.
This is when you realize that it was all a bandaid solution and an illusion that you must work hard at maintainig.
As you said it, stay a part time, sunday gathering, appearance days devotee with solid boundaries. Best of the 2 worlds.
Do not give them power to monitor you. Come and go as you please.
If you enter the open waters of full surrender of life, will, love to god and guru, it will be at your own risk.

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