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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Dudley ()
Date: November 30, 2019 06:00PM

The means never justifies the ends. No matter if Tulsi Gabbard manages to stops World War III and saves millions of lives tomorrow, a devotee of Krishna would never put another people’s life in danger for some imagined benefit in the future.

Why didn’t Mike Gabbard stand his ground? Because we all know that he would fear the wrath of Siddhaswarup and the nasty/ harsh punishments that would be meted out. Once again it shows the duplicitous nature of Siddhaswarup that he could orchestra such a deception, it’s a bold face lie to the American voters. Who can trust him or her?

I personally am against abortion and I understand about half of the population think that it’s a woman’s right to have abortion. But the fact remains abortion is rejected within Vedic philosophy. Vaishnavas avoid harming other living beings, end of story. You may well disagree with me that is your right but I hope you can still see the hypocrisy of a person who wrote lyrics fervently against abortion, who gave lectures for decades saying that abortion advocates are “killing the kids”. Then he turns around and expects us to support his disciple Tulsi Gabbard campaigning for abortion.

The New Yorker article 30/10/17
Nowadays, Butler regards Gabbard with fatherly pride, likening himself to a music teacher watching a star pupil excel. “He’s taught one of his students cello,” he says. “And he sees that, oh, this student of mine is now playing cello in the philharmonic orchestra. And it’s beautiful.”

TV interview [www.youtube.com]

Tulsi Gabbard has a 100% voting record with both Planned Parenthood and NARAL. [www.votetulsi.com]

PBS News - Jan 22 2019
She told the left-leaning website Ts that she supports using federal dollars to fund aborhinkProgrestions.

All the followers living in Kailua, Hawaii know Tulsi (Sraddha dasi) would say anything Siddhaswarup would tell her, she is his obedient servant (she went to Iraq even though she and her parents didn’t want her to go). Tulsi would stop preaching the pro abortion line tomorrow if he said so but he doesn’t, he wants to be the guru of the President of America and pull the strings from behind the curtain.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: December 01, 2019 05:01AM

Dudley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The means never justifies the ends. No matter if
> Tulsi Gabbard manages to stops World War III and
> saves millions of lives tomorrow, a devotee of
> Krishna would never put another people’s life in
> danger for some imagined benefit in the future.

I have only presented a geopolitical context. If Tulsi Gabbard has had major compromises so far, supporting abortions etc. then it is very likely that she will continue to compromise. Would that be peace? Rather shallow, short-lived. There would be no change in consciousness.

>

> I personally am against abortion and I understand
> about half of the population think that it’s a
> woman’s right to have abortion. But the fact
> remains abortion is rejected within Vedic
> philosophy. Vaishnavas avoid harming other living
> beings, end of story. You may well disagree with
> me that is your right but I hope you can still see
> the hypocrisy of a person who wrote lyrics
> fervently against abortion, who gave lectures for
> decades saying that abortion advocates are
> “killing the kids”. Then he turns around and
> expects us to support his disciple Tulsi Gabbard
> campaigning for abortion.

Personally, I have always considered abortion as an evil done to another entity and breaking laws of the nature, especially because of irresponsibility in begetting and bearing consequences, so from this point of view I look at the matter. I thought so without even having met SIF Poland and having not read the Bhagavad Gita that time.

Yes, it is hypocrisy.

> Tulsi Gabbard has a 100% voting record with both
> Planned Parenthood and NARAL.
> [www.votetulsi.com]
>
> PBS News - Jan 22 2019
> She told the left-leaning website Ts that she
> supports using federal dollars to fund
> aborhinkProgrestions.

Thank You.

Is there any evidence of the political activities of the Independents For Godly Government after February 1977?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2019 05:03AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: December 01, 2019 05:09AM

Dudley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of her support team
> and other members of SIF in Hawaii raised their
> concerns about her pro abortion agenda. They
> thought that it was morally wrong. When
> Siddhaswarup found out about the backlash he got
> Krishna Katha das (Mike Gabbard) to have a meeting
> and quell the dissent. Krishna Katha das told the
> meeting that “it’s only a strategy” “she doesn’t
> really believe in abortion and gay rights”. Can
> you believe it Jagat Guru (the teacher of the
> world) could not face up to his disciples and
> explain the Gabbard policy himself? What an
> abdication of responsibility.

Incredible and shocking. Of course, formal evidence is needed.


> Some may go along with the “strategy” proposition
> but we can ask them what if just one more baby was
> aborted because of Tulsi Gabbard’s public
> statements. Who takes the karma for that?

This strategy has "side effects". Bad fruit. Karma. If there were such far-reaching compromises now, what will happen next? How far will the defamation of the Vaisnava philosophy go?

On the other hand, the question is whether this is a Gaudiya Vaisnava sanga, if he teaches techniques like Yoga Nidra banned by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami? Of course, formal evidence is needed.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Dudley ()
Date: December 01, 2019 08:00AM

Hi my respects to you DaWatcher


The Vedic message that ACBS taught is that natural disasters, nuclear war, famine and any

other problem such as the lack of rainfall is bought about by/ increased by sinful

activity such as breaking the four regulative principles. Cow killing and abortion are

top of the list.

This is another reason we can't accept Siddhaswarp, he thinks that

by going along with abortion he increases her chances of being President and that she can

keep world peace. No there can be no peace in a world where there is industrial scale abortion.


Google:

According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions.


He doesn't understand the past gurus and the sastra. That means he is not a pure devotee. He is not

bonafide. He has changed the message. That is why I say the means does not justify the

ends. Thats not how it works.

Only by sticking to the teachings and regulations can we have a lasting effect

on society. We cant abandon the guidelines and expect Krishna to be pleased.


Anyhow we all know after being so vocal she can't go back on her platform if she was President, she

would be a laughing stock in the media.


I too was bought up a Catholic so my parents don't accept abortion. When speaking to a

friend recently she asked me do you think that you would have stayed around chanting if we were

told abortion is alright. The answer would be no way!

As far as the Krishna Katha das meeting and proof, I take your point, proof has to be provided on

every point that is made. Because it will seem like I have a personal axe to grind with Siddhaswarup

and no one within the branches of the Siddhaswarup cult will be inclined to listen. This why

Siddhasarup is so afraid of Meanwhile in Hawaii and Christine's articles because they provide

verifiable evidence.


What I can tell you is that there are people deep within SIF leaking info to me and to others like

Christine Gralow. Recently a young devotee deep within the inner sanctum: without prompting

used those very words "You know she doent really believe it". I would say it's an

understanding that the followers have in Hawaii and elsewhere.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: December 02, 2019 04:31AM

Respects to you, Dudley. Thank you for the post.


>The Vedic message that ACBS taught is that natural disasters, nuclear war, famine and any other problem such as the lack of rainfall is bought about by/ increased by sinful activity such as breaking the four regulative principles. Cow killing and abortion are top of the list.

>This is another reason we can't accept Siddhaswarp, he thinks that by going along with abortion he increases her chances of being President and that she can keep world peace. No there can be no peace in a world where there is industrial scale abortion.

Yes, we know this science.

Writing from my Polish perspective - we practically did not know the realities of "on-site" in Hawaii. As I wrote earlier - we didn't know anything about selling the temple, we didn't know anything about the IGG party or about the adopted son, or that Mr. Midget was also involved in political activities and is not just a gray-headed fellow who talks about reincarnation and meditation. There was some information about the daughters.

For some years of being close to the centers, I have not heard that even once there was a telephone meeting with people from the center, with these regular members, whether from Siddhaswarupananda or Mr. Midget. Not a single phone call to the resort. Perhaps there were calls to members of the initiated elite.


Mr. Midget arrives regularly for retreates, but meetings with people from different centers at dinner had rather such an official, apparent or facade character, saying nothing about the inconvenience of eating and talking at the same time, or watching the inundated Mr. Midget's "culinary gifts" when other SIF members ate a regular meal.

There were also private conversations, but it is difficult to expect that the relationship will be honest or deep, as these conversations are incidental.

Change was about 2011 or 2012 year, where event some Ukrainian initiated disciples could see Siddhaswarupananda on the video-call for the first time.

So in this sense, not knowing the realities of Hawaii, I have a problem in seeing Tulsi Gabbard's beliefs as Jagad Guru's instructions etc. Or maybe someone is in the middle? Or maybe someone else is pulling the strings?

> That is why I say the means does not justify the ends. Thats not how it works.

I agree 100% and in the same way the problem was articulated. This was also my vision and I approach it in this way.

> Anyhow we all know after being so vocal she can't go back on her platform if she was President, she would be a laughing stock in the media.

The reality is that a possible president who would pivot against the interests of the elites that supported him could share the sad fate of several presidents. These are the realities of power.

> As far as the Krishna Katha das meeting and proof, I take your point, proof has to be provided on every point that is made. Because it will seem like I have a personal axe to grind with Siddhaswarup and no one within the branches of the Siddhaswarup cult will be inclined to listen.

The realities present in Poland are that SIF Poland is formally divided into at least four organizations, where in practice people work together. They do a lot of interesting work, distribute prasadam, books or organize festivals and kirtans. They are nice people and nice work. Those who have been hurt or have left or are keeping their distance. Of course, the symptoms of old times and moods are visible and sometimes manifest as you can learn from people's stories - e.g. utilitarianism in relationships.

It's not even about a personal axe but the reason for the injury. Was it the result of acceptable discipline, was it part of maintaining party discipline, was it a wrong naimittika dharma for drug addicts, or was it a wrong method of mapping the good-bad policeman tactics etc. Hence the need for formal proof. Also for analysis.

It is amazing, of course, that, for example, some people promote Tulsi Gabbard in some simple way, and so their tolerance for such a deep deviation from the teaching of Vaisnavism is amazing or confirms party mechanisms and it is a matter of some sensible communication, saving them.

> What I can tell you is that there are people deep within SIF leaking info to me and to others like Christine Gralow. Recently a young devotee deep within the inner sanctum: without prompting used those very words "You know she doent really believe it". I would say it's an understanding that the followers have in Hawaii and elsewhere.

Among humble people in Poland, there is no awareness of the erroneous nature of Tulsi Gabbard's political beliefs, and even if they are, due to the social mechanisms of this sanga / sect, they will be afraid to say, but yes, there are also leaks.

Reactions are predictable. On information about Mr Midget's involvement in political activities related to IGG disbelief appears, but only independent evidence opens their eyes.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2019 04:49AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: December 02, 2019 05:15AM

Another example.

Call it as you want: hypocrisy, bigotry, policy, mendacity:

Tulsi Gabbard's Speech at ISKCON 50th Anniversary Gala Event in Washington D.C.

[www.youtube.com]

So friendly, so nice, so appreciating.

And here:

Here, ISKCON Poland members ask Trivikram Swami why SIF Poland members are attacking and have a bad opinion about ISKCON

[www.youtube.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Dudley ()
Date: December 02, 2019 06:24AM

Namaste DaWatcher

Yes the same here in Australia for decades no interaction accept for those secret emails (burn after reading) through the 80s& 90s that seem to have stopped? Here in Australia many devotees can afford to go back and forth to Hawaii. Probably not so much from Poland hence the lack of first hand accounts,it's the reign of a tyrant there.

2012 is important this is when Tulsi Gabbard started her House of Reps/ Presidential run. Swarup had to clean up his act, smooth over the past war with Iskcon. And god forbide start acting like a real guru and communicate with his disciples via video link.

The changes are staggering he has even given funds, $30K to Radhanath Swami this is public knowledge

[www.prnewswire.com]

Radhanath is Mr Big in Indian and GBC. His qualification is that he was Kirtanananda's right hand man. Yes Kirtanananda the person accused of hundreds of child sex offences and even rape. Was even involved with mudering a devotee. Yes the money you and I donated has gone to a criminal appointed guru via Siddhaswarup.

[www.iskcontimes.com]

Jalamukti dasi testimony

[www.youtube.com]

Siddhaswarup also said a few years ago that Satswarup das should continue to be a guru to those that he accepted as his disciples. Sadly Satswarup has a mental disorder (crazy) which has been known for years.
[www.harekrsna.org]

Tulsi speaking and chanting at ISCKON Rathayatra

[www.youtube.com]

Not only has he gone back on abortion but now appointed acharyas are accepted. This all points to one thing, he is not a messenger of the truth/ Vedas.

I am working on a essay about the selling of the temple and ALL of what the letters and conversations say. There is nothing there that would give you any faith that ACBS endorsed Swarup, the opposite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2019 06:36AM by Dudley.

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A project to aid new visitors to this thread
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 02, 2019 06:43AM

Friends, this discussion is years-long and runs to 672 pages.

New readers will be overwhelmed by the amount of information.

How about we create an index of important topics with URLs to relevant
sections of this discussion? That will aid journalists and concerned citizens.

Here is a sample of some topics:

Butler's Teachings

Butler's Stance Re LGBT Persons

What Butlerians Must Do - Their Lives and Duties as Butler's Disciples

Child Rearing Practices Within SIF - Consequences

Use of Public Assistance by Butlerians

SIF's Network of Businesses

Shri Shim

SIF in Foreign Countries

Bad Behavior by Butlerians in Foreign Countries

Chris Butler as Personal Guru to the Gabbards

The Gabbard Family's Political Network in Hawaii

Tulsi's Upbringing in a Butlerian Family (aka the Gabbards)

Tulsi's Actual Career in the Military

Tulsi's Ties to Hindu Nationalists

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Dudley ()
Date: December 02, 2019 11:11AM

Great idea corboy

there needs to be subheadings, even I haven't got the stamina to read back very

far over 672 pages. And there is some very compelling testimony and important

evidence tucked away.

How would that be done? So that people clearly see "Chris Bulter Cult" then relevant

sections. Thank you, hope we can work together Dudley

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: seren87 ()
Date: December 02, 2019 09:13PM

Hi all, just wanted to make a quick post to introduce myself and express my
gratitude for all the digging people have been doing. I am a college student who was really engrossed in Tulsi's political message since she started her campaign. I volunteered at several of her events and met her 3 times. I sat in on a number of campaign phone calls and generally attempted to befriend or stay in touch with campaign staff. I was even asked to represent the Gabbard campaign on more than one occasion.

When I first read about Tulsi's connection to SIF, I really didn't want to believe it. I sought counter-evidence that might suggest it was nothing but a "Hinduphobic smear by the corporate media," as her campaign would say. I was never able to find any evidence of this. The more I read, the more visibly apparent it was that Tulsi, and practically her entire campaign, are actively involved in the SIF. Not a shock to anyone here, I'm sure.

You can literally go to the SIF's numerous Facebook pages, find its photos of Butler, and see campaign staff liking the photos. If nothing else, I was consistently able to see that basically every person liking/love-reacting to photos of Butler/SIF quotes had mutual friends within the campaign, some of whom were very high ranking. This chilled me to my core and I left the campaign without notice, which, I'll add, I saw many other people do. It was like the most excited, energetic campaign staff would sometimes vanish in the dead of night, blocking all means of communication with anyone who had been involved with it. I wonder if they discovered something similar?

I'd also like to link this interview with Tulsi (hopefully it's new information) which I find really troubling. It's apparent how much Tulsi bristles when the interviewer mentions Chris Butler. Notably, she denies absolutely nothing the interviewer states, and only accuses her of being unwilling to "try and understand" her faith.

I concur with the folks above that creating some index of actual evidence is a good idea. I don't think Tulsi is an outright bad person, but I think that, like other former children of SIF, she was raised in a horrific environment and is probably still subject to the "teachings" and influences of a madman. I think the sooner this issue is represented by concrete evidence on a more visible level, the better. Again, thanks to everyone for all the awesome work looking into this. It helped me recognize the reality of what's going on with her and her campaign.

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