Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: December 14, 2019 08:26AM
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> I've written on this forum extensively about my
> time in the School, my memories and the things I
> know for a fact happened. I am an open book about
> it and happy to discuss and talk about it all.
I hope you can tell you some more details.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Butler's son, Siddha was treated with special attention as were Tapasya Das' son and nephew.
What were these forms of better treatment? Was it the initiative of Tapas das, teachers or the verbalized request of Siddhaswarupananda?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> had no access to counselors and proper guidance.
> Younger boys were abused and bullied by their
> peers and old boys.
How common were these abuses? Every week Every day?
What did the medical support issues look like, e.g. dental treatments? What about insurance for children at school?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> We are under constant stress and fear of judgment.
Did you write letters to your parents? What were the parents' reactions?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> We woke at 4am after only 5-7 hours of rest and
> took cold bucket showers, chanted in dark temple
> rooms, had moldy clothing, bad food and half-ass
> education based on hindu mythology about half-man
> half lion and pig avatars.
Did you sleep uncovered on a cold floor? Who cooked meals? Did you have symptoms of permanent loss of health, e.g. lost teeth, hair, etc.?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> We were told these
> stories of complete fiction were unequivocal truth
> and were lead to believe they were literal and
> true historical events. We had zero education
> about other world religions and mythology from
> other world cultures. It was not till years later
> that I was able to finally study and see the
> origins of various hindu deities and the evolution
> of the Bhakti cult in India and put two and two
> together to understand that these stories were
> metaphorical ideas about the human psyche and
> various hodgepodge philosophic theories of the
> east.
Yes, I understand. In my case, I came across SIF Poland having already thoroughly studied in elementary and high school. And upbringing in a Catholic family, both parents avant-garde academic education. Religious parents, non-fanatic with understanding far beyond Catholic dogmas and without too much attachment to symbolism, liturgy. At the same time, I went beyond religious dogmatism very quickly, so I had more protection at SIF Poland.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Butler was the focal personality of worship,
> surrender and emulation. We stared at pictures of
> the youthful butler on the Alter
Have you been presented with photos of the aging Siddhaswarupananda?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> every day and
> were told to distribute his books, often in
> vulnerable places like cemeteries and poor barrios
> and downtrodden neighborhoods where uneducated
> people were more likely to be influenced. It also
> helped that were were a bunch of white kids.
What language did you teach and sell publications? Have you learned the Filipino language? What were the reactions of people?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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>
> Most parents were asked to send about $200/month
> to cover our care.
Did you have pocket money for small expenses? Did you have free time for entertainment or small shopping outside of school? Independently?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> We had zero access to parental
> comfort or care. Our parents were left join the
> west to become full-time servants of
> Butler—starting businesses for him, managing
> businesses, opening preaching centers and being
> his person servants: Cooking for him and his wife,
> folding his underwear, massaging him, putting
> tinfoil walls and air filtration systems
> throughout his house and abiding by his many
> neurotic kitchen and personal care rules. Some of
> these rules were as narcissistic as to ask
> devotees to pay Butler money if they accidentally
> left a dirty spoon in the dishwasher or some such
> bullshit.
Was he also massaged by women? And if so, were they also devotees?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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>
> Butler publicly shames his own disciples regularly
> and letters or lecture tapes were sent to all his
> disciples worldwide wherein he cursed and sweared
> at his personal servants or other devotees for
> things like seeking out a husband, not having
> mangoes available or storing his lecture tapes
> improperly and so forth. It ranged from silly
> things to downright absurd and neurotic. Devotees
> lived in shame, fear and guilt.
Yes, I confirm, there were several such lectures dealing with personal issues in public. However, I don't know how big the filter was. Most of the lectures did not arouse controversy.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Butler approved certain devotees as "pure". They
> included, of course, his own wife (which he
> apparently gave up sanyas so he can "preach to
> woman" which has no scriptural source at all),
> Tusta Krishna das and Katyayani Devi Dasi. Mike
> Gabbard AKA Krishna Katha was considered a high
> ranking devotee and we were always told who to
> vote for and so forth (eroding the very meaning of
> democracy).
Yes i confirm In Poland, there were also symptoms of creating a vision that true pure devotees were only "on-site". Somehow because of physical proximity, destiny, etc.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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>
> Toenails of Butler, hair clippings or sand he
> walked on were regularly distributed as "Maha
> prasadam" which was eaten by devotees.
Are there any other such biological materials available? Also derived from Siddha Bellord?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> There was constantly scandals throughout the
> mission. Instead of solving these things in a
> rational and respectful manner, Butler often
> exploded with anger and smashed everyone who was
> involved. There was no leading with love and
> mindful attention to how people may be affected.
This is the mechanism. There could be no success.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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>
> Millions of dollars were funneled for assorted
> projects of Butler's (many of which failed or
> never came to fruition) or just to maintain his
> elaborate care. There are countless letters were
> Butler is angry and critical of his Devotees for
> messing up some small part of his care. These were
> devotees with real jobs and kids to care for who
> were doing their best to be his person servants.
My personal feeling in Poland at some point was that letters could be written by another person. Can you confirm that some of the letters were not written by Siddhaswarupananda?
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Information about Butlers based was often secret
> or we were told some sort of fantastical stories
> about Butler having achieved brhaman realization
> while he was a 17 year old LSD hippie in Hawaii.
> We were told silly stories about Butlers flesh
> burning at the base of his spine as he raised his
> Kundalini energy along his spinal column. We were
> told tales of Butler surrendering his large group
> of followers to Swami Prabhupada like some sort of
> tale from Chaitanya Charitamrita of Mayavadis
> surrending their followers to Mahaprabhu. It's
> comical now in retrospect, but we were kids and
> ate this shit up like ice cream on a hot summer
> day.
From my point of view, there were important points in the biography such as: attaining nirvakalpa samadhi, mystic yoga school teacher or individual approach to students. Materials on the web undermine each of them.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> As Butler devotees we had no exposure to the
> deeper traditions of the Vaishnava faith. We were
> not allowed to visit India or any of the
> pilgrimage spots, did not wear tilak or tradition
> vaishnava dress, neck beads, sika, dhotis and
> saris or even play instruments like mrdanga,
> supposedly dear to the founder of the Bhakti
> movement, Chaitanya.
This is surprising. In Poland there were drums in the centers, neck beads, people painted tilak while there was no wearing traditional Indian costumes. People in Poland at SIF did not have a special attraction to Hindu folklore, such as ISKCON.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Believe what you want, but I don't feel any of the
> above has a place in modern hindu thought as
> literal and historic factual events. They are
> parables and symbolic tales at best and simple
> village stories in most cases. They have no place
> in a serious study and perusal of a spiritual
> practice regardless if they are of the Bhakti ilk
> or Jnana or Karma yoga variety.
From my point of view, various Indian philosophical or scientific schools have value. For example, learning about three modes of material nature. However, you can appreciate them after thorough study of mathematics, system dynamics, physics, psychology (e.g. Jung), reductionist analytics, etc. Of course, in depth and not as pseudo-eastern nonsense. For example, reductionism in the Bhagavad Gita is of scientific value.
IanKoviak Wrote:
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> Kids should not
> spend their childhood being fed this stuff or told
> to worship any guru unless it's in a more generic
> traditional guru/priest approach. A child should
> be allowed to play, be with their parents, have
> girls and boys as friends and learn contemporary
> academic courses, learn about world religions and
> cross-cultural mythology and eventually, as
> adults, find a spiritual guide on their own.
I agree completely. Freedom of choice regarding religion, value system etc.
I am able to imagine your burden of these experiences if it was an experience since childhood and not some stage in my life.
In my case, the controversial experience at SIF Poland, both inspirational and devastating, forced me to develop independent analytics.
Have SIF leaders ever tried to contact you to determine any form of redress? Were there symptoms of understanding your experiences at this school? Has there been any initiative in this direction?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 08:28AM by DaWatcher.