I would like to ask another sincere question of the ex-ers.

I learned of the meditative practices Kirtan and Japa from a variety of sources outside the Chris Butler Cult, and even outside Yogic systems in general.

Do any of you feel you received meditative benefits from doing these practices on your own (as devotees are required to chant individually)?

Also, I would sincerely like to ask: I can see how group Sankirtans can be subject to... a different experience (manipulation). But, if one is chanting individually at home, away from other cult members and influences, what is the mechanism by which these meditative practices can be seen as detrimental to one's mental health?

Thank you for your time.

Thanks terre, you bring up a lot of good points as well.

Indigo, sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. You may be missing a lot by rushing to judgment and expecting to be spoon fed all the answers. Take time to process the different pespectives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2010 09:29AM by Vera City.

just googling was merely saying that regardless of theology, the Butler quotes do not represent a person connected to any spiritual values, but illustrate a "power tripper". I think he made a valid point.

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Vera City
just googling was merely saying that regardless of theology, the Butler quotes do not represent a person connected to any spiritual values, but illustrate a "power tripper". I think he made a valid point.

Yes, I reckon the "power tripping" is definitely a huge red flag. There is really no need for it. A person who is thinking logically would surely see how this power-tripping aspect of Butler's personality outweighs any spiritual teachings.


Tuco says: Humiliating others is not god-like or spiritual!

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indigoarthur
I would like to ask another sincere question of the ex-ers.

I learned of the meditative practices Kirtan and Japa from a variety of sources outside the Chris Butler Cult, and even outside Yogic systems in general.

Do any of you feel you received meditative benefits from doing these practices on your own (as devotees are required to chant individually)?

Also, I would sincerely like to ask: I can see how group Sankirtans can be subject to... a different experience (manipulation). But, if one is chanting individually at home, away from other cult members and influences, what is the mechanism by which these meditative practices can be seen as detrimental to one's mental health?

Thank you for your time.

Indigo Arthur
The topic on this forum is not about the benefits of meditation nor its historical background. Just like there is a difference between military indoctrination and cult indoctrination, both in purpose, scope, and methods, there are differences between how cults employ meditation techniques. Remember, even the most destructive and dangerous cults use meditation, religious practices, or noble causes. For example, read Dharmabum’s post on Jim Jones.

Your first questions should be, "With what are these meditations associated? Is there a background program running of which I am not aware? Is this practice reinforcing the doctrine or dogma with which it is associated?"

I suggest you do further research on how people are manipulated in cults.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2010 05:04AM by Vera City.

1. Indigo arthur, I read your PM. I am sorry you felt offended, but it was your messages -- not you, the messenger. Actually, people have been very considerate and patient with you on this forum, considering what you have been posting. Rrmoderator is understandably direct and succinct. He's heard it all from a million different cults. He keeps the forum on track. Don't take it personally. Like I have said before, not everyone here agrees on everything, but it is Rick's forum and he does a damn good job. Until someone wants to spend the time and energy to create another website and invest in security, this is it.

I don't know how to break this down for you in a sugar coated way . . . You still do not seem to understand the purpose of this forum. If you want to talk about vaishnava beliefs, apologize for Butler and his group, and minimize the pain and harm done to followers and innocent children, start your own forum elsewhere. Consciously or unconsciously, you are a Butler apologist and this is not the place for you.

2. Your coming here is like a BP representative wanting to justify the oil spill to marine biologists busy trying to save the lives of endangered animals! Maybe the BP guy lost some sleep over the disaster. Maybe you are a nice guy, but people have been genuinely hurt and ripped off by this cult. So don't expect some sort of polite television debate. They have heard the Butler apology raps a million times over. They're done. The trial is over and Butler is guilty.

3. Many details, events, and the "evidence" you seek, would identify people, and therefore not provided on this forum for fear of being harassed by members of the group (which has happened). People want their privacy along with a safe place to speak the truth. No one needs to prove a thing to you. Most people who have posted here had direct experience of Butler and his group's harmful practices. They validate each other and have seen the breadth of the damages with the shared experiences. The debate is long over. Sh#t happened.


4. CB followers may be kind to you because they sincerely think they are helping you, or maybe they just like you. I doubt they consciously think they are breaking you down or employing "brain washing" techniques, but they do want you to think like them. Knowingly or unknowingly they are using the same techniques that worked on them. Being well trained by Butler, they have to demonize the rest of the world that does not believe as they do. They have to create straw men, polarities, demons versus devotees.

5. You have come on this forum with their same assumptions and insults. It is bigotry, pure and simple. People here have been hurt by the Butler cult and you have been insensitive, insulting, and provocative towards them. You do it in such a polite, oblique way, but derogatory nonetheless.


6. You imply that exers are demons, weak, have no discipline or purpose, are atheists, gross materialists, intolerant, hypocrites, sex addicts, and lost in maya. Formula-->Demons = anyone who does not share the vaishnava or the "culture of Butler" world view!? WTF! People that post here are "demons" because they don't believe the same as your pals!? Is it any wonder you are censored!?


8. I will say that when you answered you own question, and realized VD is an extension of CB, your critical thinking skills were kicking in. Read about the characteristics of a narcissist. Read about other cults. Compare and contrast. If you want to be "deprogrammed" as you claim, do the research yourself, or interview a licensed therapist who has experience with cults.

Quote from "indigoarthur":

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I ask again: is there evidence of abusive activity beyond verbal? I ask in hopes of getting pointers that will not require me to read 290 pages parsing for something "substantial."

Dude, I'm sorry but WTF??

If you really want some great insight into the "haribol cult" start reading the posts on this forum. There is a ton of information and a lot to be learned - not only about what a cult is and how this relates to CB, but also about Vaishnavism and how CB has manipulated this form of worship for his own purposes.

Oh, and is there abuse beyond verbal? Why, yes there is...wanna find out? Start reading. Period.

Quote from "indigoarthur":

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I ask again: is there evidence of abusive activity beyond verbal? I ask in hopes of getting pointers that will not require me to read 290 pages parsing for something "substantial."

Your question is suggestive that verbal abuse is not substantial. This is incorrect.

For a guru whom blind followers accept 'as good as g0d' to verbally humiliate and abuse such followers is very substantial. Ordering such followers to pay fines or put bags over their heads etc. is very detrimental to these persons' well-being on a psychological level as well as an obvious financial level.

I apologize to all, had I not been nicer to Indie. At least I know now what ticks me off. I've been making conscious effort not to be mean to anybody, but when it comes to people who are propagators of religious cults I can easily blow my lid. After reading through all the posts, it just dawned on me that people like Indie maybe are more like victims than perpetrators. Terre, must have a point there. I applaud Vera, Terre and Googs for being so extra patient with Indie. I should have been more tolerant, but then again, who knows?

I just really feel sorry that people still fall for the mambo jumbos of religious cults. I just get so frustrated that they still work. I still have loved ones in there, and I pity them when I observe how socially off they become when dealing with the world outside the community. Especially with adolescents, when they are torn between their faith and their natural propensity as growing adults. The struggle is just much too much. I wish they could be as rebellious as Rama das. But boy, those teens I observed, they could really grow up to be very confused. Whenever they talk to people outside their faith, most of the time they are defensive, suspicious and even hostile.

Through the years I learned to be very, very patient, just because they are my own. It's good to know that I don't have the same patience when it comes to people like Indie. Especially when I hear them use the word demon to refer to people outside the faith. It's almost rude, but Chris Butler made it so cool and trendy among them. Him, being their model for uttering profanities, George Carlin becomes kindergarten. The most thing I hate is how SELF-RIGHTEOUS they become and how they perceive ordinary people as inferior and wrong all the time, and this demeanor is across the board, from the children to the old-timers. If this is not a psychological damage, I don't know what is?

I too struggled growing up in the cult, they just don't have any idea how damaging it was. When I left, it was an uphill battle to adjust to society. Just to be conditioned to see the world in black and white, you can't help becoming judgmental, opinionated and difficult. The physical abuse is just no match to the psychological damage, just because the latter is not so obvious, therefore is easily ignored most of the time; as compared to physical bruises that even our social vanguards are compelled to intervene. And this is one thing so different with Chris Butler's cult. He seems to have come clean when it comes to the usual dirty laundry most cults are guilty of. There were no rampant sexual abuses and child molestation, and they don't go dealing with drugs and smuggling arms. If they do, I have no knowledge of. For me that's what makes them more dangerous, because they seem to be good guys and the culture is very unique and seductive. They overemphasize love for God and simple living, that it looked very ideal kind of a lifestyle from the outside. He's quite good with the lingo and the "feel good" psychology. The ugliness is very subtle. Nevertheless, just as damaging as any other cults.

I just hope time has changed, and the children growing up in there are unlike us anymore in the 70s. Vera was right in saying that we don't mean to hurt when we seem mean, but are usually hurt when it gets to this topic. It's good to know that somehow I've not fully gotten over my experience there and still have to work harder to overcome the hurt. Somehow there's a point when we just have to move on, but that becomes more difficult when you still have connections that are still stuck in there. The bitterness lingers.

I too, have a gut reaction to being called a DEMON. I really did have to wait to cool down and think rationally before I could answer Indigo, both in PM and here. The devotees, *especially* Chris butler, actually do nothing to improve people's lives, and yet are still registered as a charitable organization. Yeah yeah I know, they think the greatest gift they give is the holy names, but I still think that the whistle can, and should, be blown on their charitable status. It would be nice if they got audited and were billed for back-taxes. It would be even nicer if they would give back all the money they have taken from their "students". yep, if pigs fly...

If Indigo cannot see any wrong-doing in the things that he has witnessed, and the stuff he had heard on here, then he is already lost. Or just another shit-disturber. Whatever. It is really too bad they got another one.

Dharmabum, I don't think you were too mean. This stuff really is serious, regardless of the apologists. I don't have family still in, but there are people I care about who are suffering. Yes, for real. Emotional abuse is a killer. Suicide, anyone? How can death not be enough evidence?

In a PM, Indigo asked me why I left. I did not answer because Vera had just posted an awesome summary of how f*cked up the whole deal was, so it seemed redundant, but I will post here:

1. suicides of really nice people
2. Being told to HATE gays
3. Trying to find a tape my dying friend could listen to, and failing. In every tape I picked out, CB ended up ranting on about gays, or insulting devotees (yes, on tape), or just getting stuck in a cursing tantrum like he has OCD or early-onset dementia. I figured if I was too embarrassed to let anyone outside the group hear it, it was probably crap.
4. Hate, intolerance, lying, cheating, scamming, and good old stupidity, all in God's name.
5. the philosophy was shallow and incomplete. Really, "you are not your body", is just a whisper compared to the massive history and theology behind Vaishnava life. It became evident that the philosophy merely existed to prop up the leaders' lifestyle. "we'll spend a few seconds on philosophy, then you can all get back to work".

yeah, enlightened bunch.


So Indigo, if you are still reading, there's my answer. Really.

Dharmabum, I hope your family members stay safe. I also hope that one day they will be able to make a complete recovery. CB won't last much longer, and then maybe they will be free.