Thanks z,
but pages 42 - 43 are missing.
vc

See [www.culteducation.com]
The following bit may explain why people stay in cults.

Quote

”Lengthy participation in an appropriately constructed and managed environment fosters peer relations, an interaction history, and other behavior consistent with a public identity that incorporates approved values and opinions. Promoting the development of an interaction history in which persons engage in cooperative activity with peers that is not blatantly coerced and in which they are encouraged but not forced to make verbal claims to "truly understanding the ideology and having been transformed," will tend to lead them to conclude that they hold beliefs consistent with their actions (i.e., to make attributions to self as the source of their behaviors). These reinforcement procedures can result in a significant degree of cognitive confusion and an alteration in what the person takes to be his or her beliefs and attitudes while involved in the controlled environment (Bem 1972; 0fshe et al. 1974).”

Without some support outside of the cult, or access to truthful information about the cult, it's almost impossible to leave. Deep bonds develop between members. Jagad Guru Chris Butler’s cult is already going on into the second and third generations. Cult behavior is reinforced to a point where participants believe they truly have realized things for which they have no proof or evidence.

The ex followers that I know have one thing in common. They had the unhappy fortune to experience a traumatic event that catapulted them out of the cult. Unhappy, because it was the source of much pain, and fortunate because they experienced an event that gave him/her access to the truth and the world outside of the cult.

The Rick Ross forum often provides a socially supportive environment for people grappling with cults, depending on the good will and understanding of forum members and keeping the disruptive trolls in check with good moderation. If a person is questioning and trying to leave a cult, has no relationships outside of the cult, IMHO a supportive forum helps a lot.

Ex members of Jagad Guru Chris Butler’s cult are still grappling with the past and may initially come on here with many misconceptions or not really understand what actually happened to them. It takes time to assimilate new information. So it is important to respect members who may have had different experiences and opinions. Tolerance and compassion helps to encourage recovery.

The Ofshe article also points out the difficulties in studying cults.
See [www.culteducation.com]

Quote

Thought reform is not an easy process to study for several reasons. The extraordinary totalistic qualities and hyperorganization of thought-reforming environments, together with the exceptional nature of the influence tactics that appear within them, put the researcher in a position roughly analogous to that of an anthropologist entering into or interviewing someone about a culture that is utterly foreign. The researcher cannot assume that he or she understands or even knows the norms of the new environment. This means that until the researcher is familiar with the constructed environment within which the reform process takes place, it is dangerous to make the routine assumptions about context that underlie research within one's own culture. This problem extends to vocabulary as well as to norms and social structure.

The cultural experiment and result of Jagad Guru Chris Butler’s teachings is no longer an unknown country. But it may take some people time to understand how the environment was constructed that made them stay in the cult for so long, without feeling that there was anything wrong or that their thoughts had been reformed in any way.

This “very gentle force”, this particularly gentle form of coercion that Jagad Guru Chris Butler has mastered in his Science of Identity cult, is a key characteristic of the group. That is an important anthropological observation and clue. Does it make his cult any less harmful? No, it makes it more insidious.

Vera City:

Please explain exactly how Chris Butler's "very gentle force" is objectively different than the methods of manipulation used in other groups called "cults."

Quote

rrmoderator
Vera City:
Please explain exactly how Chris Butler's "very gentle force" is objectively different than the methods of manipulation used in other groups called "cults."

Chris Butler's methods of manipulation IMO do not differ from other cults that use these same methods whether they use psychology, hypnosis, or certain forms of meditation. I wasn't comparing his methods to other groups. My comments were in connection with what was brought up in the Ofshe article where he pointed out that the most effective coercive methods were done without torture, imprisonment, and the like. The article explains how both methods create conditions for thought reform.


From the article:

Quote

Programs of both types (confined/assaultive and nonconfined/nonassaultive) cause a range of cognitive and behavioral responses. The reported cognitive responses vary from apparently rare instances, classifiable as internalized belief change (enduring change), to a frequently observed transient alteration in beliefs that appears to be situationally adaptive and, finally, to reactions of nothing less than firm intellectual resistance and hostility (Lifton 1961, pp. 117-151, 399-415; Schein 1961, pp. 157-166).

The Butler group uses the nonconfined/nonassaultive type of methods. The term "very gentle force" comes from the title of Jagad Guru Chris Butler's album made in 1975 with very sweet, Donovan-esque sounding music titled, "Siddha: A Very Gentle Force". It's title holds a very bitter irony here.

The article pointed out that the non-violent coercive methods are the ones that are the most effective. That was my point and why I said it was insidious.

I wrote:

Quote

This “very gentle force”, this particularly gentle form of coercion that Jagad Guru Chris Butler has mastered in his Science of Identity cult, is a key characteristic of the group. That is an important anthropological observation and clue. Does it make his cult any less harmful? No, it makes it more insidious.

From the article:

Quote


Two widespread myths have developed from misreading the early studies of thought reforming influence systems (Zablocki 1991 ). These studies dealt in part with their use to elicit false confessions in the Soviet Union after the 1917 revolution; from American and United Nations forces held as POWs during the Korean War; and from their application to Western missionaries held in China following Mao's revolution.
The first myth concerns the necessity and effectiveness of physical abuse in the reform process. The myth is that physical abuse is not only necessary but is the prime cause of apparent belief change. Reports about the treatment of POWs and foreign prisoners in China documented that physical abuse was present. Studies of the role of assault in the promotion of attitude change and in eliciting false confessions even from U.S. servicemen revealed, however, that it was ineffective. Belief change and compliance was more likely when physical abuse was minimal or absent (Biderman 1960). Both Schein (1961) and Lifton (1961) reported that physical abuse was a minor element in the theoretical understanding of even prison reform programs in China.

In the main, efforts at resocializing China's nationals were conducted under nonconfined/ nonassaultive conditions. Millions of China's citizens underwent reform in schools, special-training centers, factories, and neighborhood groups in which physical assault was not used as a coercive technique. One such setting for which many participants actively sought admission, the "Revolutionary University," was classified by Lifton as the "hard core of the entire Chinese thought reform movement" (Lifton 1961,p. 248).

The facts brought up in those last two paragraphs were a surprise to me.

See [www.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 07:55AM by Vera City.

This Krishna loves Jesus, Jesus loves Krishna booklet
brought back a lot of memories.
It was produced by the free labor of followers
really believing that they were going to turn on the world.
This was my favorite book.
I thought, "how could a person not want to chant and become
a vegetarian after reading this!"
I really got duped...

I used to believe everything in it was true.
Wow! Jesus knows Krishna too!?
Is that who he was talking to in the garden?!
It's true because sweet gurudev says so! (I'm being sarcastic here!!!)

Behind all that gooey, sticky, sacharine splenda sweetness
lies the real Siddhaswarupananda Chris Butler
who lives off of the illusion of that propaganda piece
and tax free donations of his "volunteers"...

In the end,
the very gentle force's not so gentle on your mind...

A correction: the devotee in the above photo, with the turtleneck and red jacket, is not named Arjuna das; the devotee to the left, wearing the hoodie, is Arjuna. Mr. Turtleneck (Prajapati would not tell me the man's name when he came over to my place today to get the photos and booklet back) eventually got wound up in the New Vrindavan cult and was involved with some of the murders out there, scary stuff.

Having posted all of this, I also want to state that I have been openly critical of ISKCON and Prabhupada himself in the past:

[forum.culteducation.com]

...and am a bit embarrassed about that. Everybody knows that ISKCON has had quite a troublesome history. Some bad people abused their power severely after Prabhupada left. A lot of people got hurt, to put it mildly. This makes me sad, and hurts me to know. I live in Dallas and visit the temple for darsansa daily and chant myself. I like to read Prabhupada's books, especially his Gita translation and Sri Isopanisad. Really at heart, have I deep respect for Prabhupada and what he started in the US. He was able to accomplish a lot in a relatively short period of time. His contributions cannot be overstated. I feel great reverence and affection for Prabhupada. The Hare Krsnas who are my friends and acquaintances (and there are many) are some of the most interesting people I know. I myself, however, identify (in terms of the material) as a Christian and consider Jesus to be my highest "guru." I was an atheist until I met Prabhupada (through his books) and feel a lot of gratitude and affection for him.

My work against David McKay and his group has nothing to do with some hatred I have towards "cults." It has to do with my overwhelming conviction that DM is a sick maniac who needs to be stopped from hurting other people. Very simple.

So, I just thought thought that I'd tell you all something about me. This is personal stuff.

Please understand: the CB material was posted purely and solely for informational purposes only. Purely presented as research material.

I do not want anybody accusing me of being a phony or some kind of "cult buster" maniac. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances around the Dallas dhama, and have associated with, served in my own small way, and studied among the devotees for years. Some of my Christian, "churchy" friends give me a hard time about my devotee associations.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 03:39PM by zeuszor.

See [www.culteducation.com]
More on the Ofshe article relating it to the Butler cult:

On controlling communication within a group.

People were told to only associate with other devotees and preferably those more “advanced”. You were encouraged not to speak unnecessarily about any topics but g0d and guru. If you had some practical thing to discuss, keep the words to a minimum. Gossip was considered like eating “blood on crackers”, and yet a lot of people sure ate a lot of them! If you had to have contact with outside people, you were encouraged to try to turn them on to chanting, preach, and come to “gatherings”. Unmarried followers were warned against talking to the opposite sex. Everyone really was programmed to think that they were saving the world and cows by doing this!

You were also told to avoid talking to anyone from ISKCON, which was in the middle of its worst scandals. Butler did not want there to be any connection between his group and their group. He wrote about his lawsuit with the Honolulu Star Bulletin in the Dear Fanatic article posted earlier.

In Chris Butler’s group one often had the feeling that there were members who would sell you down the river for one false move. A cult member was not fearful of physical violence, but of being rejected, shunned, told to leave, or be told that their spiritual life was over.

Some people were dependent on their shelter and daily bread from Jagad Guru Chris Butler, so getting in trouble meant out on the street and homeless.

Chris usually threatened to “leave the planet” at least once a year. This meant that if guru decided to go off to Krish-nah land and left his followers behind, they would not achieve the ultimate liberation of serving g0d and guru. People actually believed that Chris could willingly go back to g0dhead at a moments notice and the only reason he stuck around this “miserable place” was to save his “miserable” followers. That’s a part of the myth that was well communicated amongst followers.

Sometimes he would get fed up with followers and disappear for a few months at a time, only to return to repentant followers with renewed energy to “worship” him properly (with enthusiastic free labor, adulation, and money).

From the Ofshe article:

Quote

“One of the essential components of the reform process in general and of long-term refreezing in particular is monitoring and limiting the content of communication among persons in the managed group (Lifton 1961; Schein 1960; Ofshe et al. ] 974). If successfully accomplished, communication control eliminates a person's ability safely to express criticisms or to share private doubts and reservations. The result is to confer on the community the quality of being a spy system of the whole, upon the whole…”

“Controlling communication effectively blocks individuals from testing the appropriateness of privately held critical perceptions against the views of even their families and most-valued associates. Community norms encourage doubters to interpret lingering reservations as signs of a personal failure to comprehend the truth of the ideology; if involved with religious organizations, to interpret doubt as evidence of sinfulness or the result of demonic influences….”

The oft repeated line was that “doubts are like demons”. No one would listen to your concerns and if they heard expressions of doubt, it would spread like wild fire in the group and go straight to CB’s ears. He could use the information to humiliate a follower or use the person as an example in public (or on tapes distributed to members around the world). He also might “fire” someone until they came begging back with tail between legs. Some people got habitually fired, but never kicked completely away. They would often go to an advanced devotee looking for “service”; people like Katyayani, Tusta, or Sudama when they were all around. I’m sure there were others.

So this essential component of the reform process and long-term refreezing was a huge part in the Jagad Guru Chris Butler Science of Identity cult. I am sure today it is even more sophisticated and controlling as it has spread to the next generations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 11:03PM by Vera City.

To whom it may concern:

"SoI Kills" will no longer be participating in discussion at this message board.