Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: Dassi ()
Date: October 23, 2007 07:36AM

I found this great reply by "corboy" on a different thread.
He is talking about Adi Da or Dada Free John (he has other names --like FL).
He is a contemporary of FL.

quotesman and Googs, you might want to add to this post with FL examples.

IB - and other kids who grew up in FL's cult should take notes!

From corboy:

They capitalize on two things: Harmful people and groups often re-write their history and exploit that most seekers will not fact check.

Rewriting History

1) Even in relation to ghastly scandals, public memory is short. All one has to do is wait a long time, then offer sanitized histories of controversial organizations and groups.

Often, names of organizations or controversial leaders are changed, and the actual histories of the group become part of the 'family secret' that is with held from newcomers.

Once you get emotionally involved, you have formed friendships, often initially seem to benefit from what the group has to offer. Outer circle members, especially those who are sweet people and have businesses that are likely to attract recruits (eg teachers at yoga studios), may never be told the true and ugly history of an organization. Those in the outer circles will have NO frame of reference for any evidence of abuse and will be horrified, even indignant if any suggestion is made that thier beloved group has a secret history and track record of abuse that is well hidden.

Often, inner circle members who directly serve the guru are the ones who know the inside dope. They may be specially recruited into this position if they show evidence of having codependent talents--as many do who seek healing through spiritual venues. Once people join the inner circle of a group they may be led to see and do things that leave them ashamed to leave and they are trapped. They may rationalize the abuse they suffer as evidence that they are priviliged, and tough enough to see the guru's cruelty as actually a blessing and that anyone concerned about cruelty is either ungrateful or a weak and unworthy worm.

Note: it is amazing to see how often in supposedly spiriutal organizations, a sophisticated rhetoric of invalidation is used to re-frame cruelty as a blessing and that compassion and honesty are re-framed as evidence of inferiority and weakness. If you can let a guru convince you that shit is sugar that proves you are highly evolved and that anyone who goes 'yuck!' is inferior.)

Here are examples of gurus whose followers re-wrote history. THey get away with this because so very few spiritual seekers know that real spiritual traditions actually value discernment and prize critical thinking as essential for any aspirant. It is those who create bogus traditions who devalue critical thinking.

Rajneesh, the guy who collected Rolls Royces and tried to affect a local election in Oregon by having followers taint a salad bar at a restaurant with salmonella to keep townspeople home sick so that ashramites could cast the deciding votes---he died and his successors have changed his name to 'Osho.'

Adi Da is now known as Adi Da Samiraj. He hides out on an island in the South Pacific, waited on hand and foot by devotees. Few are allowed to see him until they are so devoted (and preferably wealthy) that they are capable of rationalizing anything. His trashed physical appearance is disguised on the publicity posters.

Siddha/SYDA yoga, founded by Muktananda, did all it could to revise its history by destroying past issues magazines. When one of its gurus (Nityananda) was purged, all of his pictures were destroyed en-masse.

Few Bother to Fact Check

2) Most spiritual seekers are socialized to be naive and trusting and to consider any sort of prudent fact-checking a 'negative' state of mind.

There is an amazing double standard. It is considered wise and praiseworthy to consult Consumer Reports and fact check big ticket purchases such as a car, laptop, house, etc.

But any suggestion that it is just as wise to check the background of someone who proposes to alter your mind and belief system--people screetch that that is negative and horrid and that 'you have to take a leap of faith.'

Come on. Would we let just anyone log on and re-format the hard drive on our computers?

At least if such a person were incompetant and messed our computer up, that sitaution could be fixed. But if someone messes up our minds, that is hard to repair, maybe in some cases impossible. Family relations can be destroyed beyond repair, too.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: hoax108 ()
Date: October 23, 2007 09:18AM

Once again we have an individual describing aspects of a harmful cult and its leader. Once again FL and the SIF fit perfectly into the mold.

Just one example - Rajneesh had his followers taint a salad bar with salmonella to try to influence the outcome of an election. FL had a disciple dig up dirt on a political opponent of one of his puppets by having a disciple use a hidden tape recorder and speak to a woman who (I think) alleged she was sexually assaulted by the opponent. Created quite a scandal. And of course recently Mike Gabbard lied about being Catholic.

The post above by "corboy" might well have been illustrated with examples from FL and SIF for every point listed.

I shudder when I think of the responses at the beginning of this thread a couple of years ago from FL cult members saying that "we are not an organization, we're just a bunch of happy people trying to incorporate the teachings of the B-G into our lives.....etc....etc.... "

Corboy's observations are quite acute. I especially the statements regarding the inner circle members. This rings so true in FLs group. Also the re-framing of cruelty as a blessing - note: this is EXACTLY what I was told about FLs chastisements. And double standards? In SIF, double standard IS the standard. I remember quite vividly a former member of ISKCON mentioning to me that he felt the double standards just in our little remote group was hard to take.

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Re: Indian Guru
Posted by: I Believed ()
Date: October 23, 2007 11:07AM

One thing I would like to ask you. I had heard all those people who went to the Indian Guru were students not initiated disciples of FL. Were any of them initiated first by FL?

I would be interested to know who you heard this from - I am sure that it must have been from other Haribols. Of course they still stick to the story that noone ever leaves. There is two indian gurus and three if you factor in Narayan Maharaj of which letters you published. There is a lot of bad feeling there and the Krishna Karuna thing was a big scandal. Information came through to CR immediately regarding these three gurus, but a lot of it was not published. ISKCON also put forward some info as did ex-ISKCON and ISKCON-reform and it went unpublished simply because of not being sure of the ramifications of it at the time. A lot of the more controversial stuff was sat on and a lot has been researched further so that the history of dissent against Siddha is actually pretty well documented now. I am sure that Siddha also tells his followers that ISKCON letters and other letters that have been published are forgeries and should not be accepted. Like most things he says a little research and maintaining the ability to think reveals what a total liar he is.

There were people that were Siddha's initiated disciples that left him as far back as ISKCON to become disciples of ACB.

There is at least one very high up former Siddha disciple with a guru in India that has a strong ISKCON background and who was branded widely as a huge betrayer.

There are at least twenty disciples that I know of (I am being very conservative in that) who went to the guru that I am talking about and yes they were definitely initiated. My own dad was one of them. Some of them were initiated just immediately before they left. Siddha played the big time guru card by initiated wives with dissenting husbands and vice versa and then gave the order that if they were really his disciple they would serve him by leaving their partner. Kids that were aged above five that were presented to him by at least one loyalist parent were initiated since Siddha considers five the age where one is supossed to become serious about their spiritual life (no more toys, having to start to do all their rounds etc.)

I would like to ask you a question if I may quotesman or anyone else who might have some sort of idea - all this talk about the portfolio. I have helped to seek out this mythical book and there has been no luck whatsoever. ISKCON in three countries and the BBT have claimed that it does not exist. They get very offended that it is being asked for as if there is someone trying to check up on them or something. Searches online have definitely turned up letters that are most likely derived from Sulochana das's bribery of the archives worker to get the letters for The Guru Business. Other people have mentioned this portfolio outside this forum with the urging to get hold of it for what it would reveal but it is nowhere to be found. In particular there was a circular that was ordered to be distributed by ACB against Siddha prior to him joining ISKCON which is of very much interest to those of us wanting to see the real history of Siddha documented. Any help you could offer would be appreciated.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: I Believed ()
Date: October 23, 2007 11:40AM

Hi Dassi

That is a lot of questions so I will try to answer some of them now.

I really do hope that you and anyone else might consider supporting some of the projects that I am involved with for the kids. That is the concern of myself and my friends too. It is not like we would be running meetings or anything formal like that but there is a lot of groundwork being done finding out what the possibilities might be. There is some indication that human rights and children's orgs that look at conditions like in the Phillipines might help us. It is hard trying not to get too optomistic but all the information that is available about the PI circumstances has been put into a letter and sent off waiting for the first round of responses. It could be that there comes a time when it would be great for formers devotees to consider emailing or contacting helpful organisations and urging them to become involved and shouting out any ideas or knowledge that would satisfy them that there is a real need. I will try to post as much helpful info as I can without letting SIF get too much insight and playing their ninja games. Trying to anyway. Tools.

If you were reading the thread a while back you may have seen that terrible events and treatment of a kid was reported to the police and nothing was done about it. That kid is still living with his dysfuctional parents and not getting any education and is being exposed to his highly questionable grandparents who are untouchable disciples with a very suspect history of how they raised their own kids.

Even what is considered to be a good relationship in SIF is tainted with the skewed subjective morality that these people have. Radha Krishna das really was thought to have one of the best relationships around. There have even been lectures about how good he is to his wife. Siddha has felt the need to endorse the marriage because there were so many disciples saying to him why is this guy marrying a girl that is so much younger than him? Of course she is close to him, he made sure that he got her young enough that he could train her. It is gross to see the way that she and other wives simper at their husband's feet. The youngest daughter was also married off to a much older devotee so the parents can feel as if they are above everyone else and in Krishna's favor. Women are being used to barter salvation. It is sick!!!

Did you get a good education?

Absolutely not. I was lucky not to be there for too long. I couldn't read or write and had no concept of math whatsever. I was amazed when I was sent to a real school how different it was. All we learned was Srila Prabhupad this, Krishna that. Listening to lectures and chanting and japa.

Did you like the school?

At the time I wasn't happy for a lot of reasons. Like all kids I wanted to play and just fool around and stuff but that isn't recognised as normal by thsoe people. The conditions I will get to will give you another hint as to why. I didn't really know anything else, but honestly I don't recall being very happy just the same. I think about if that was all I knew and it still seemed wrong it must seem pretty damn wrong to so called responsible adults.

I really do have to run right now, but I have a lot to think about and I am happy to talk about what I know so will get back to you later.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: October 23, 2007 05:30PM

Yes, Dassi, eerily similar to what is happening with $iddha and his followers.

"They may rationalize the abuse they suffer as evidence that they are priviliged, and tough enough to see the guru's cruelty as actually a blessing and that anyone concerned about cruelty is either ungrateful or a weak and unworthy worm."

This example is 100% of what is happening in Science of Identity. Yes, I'm sure we were ALL thinking that we were unworthy worms in the presence of the Fearless Leader.

The comparison to Osho and his political shananigans is also eerily similar to what is happening in Science of Identity... I wonder if the Fearless Leader would go as far as to consider poisoning the homosexual voters on voting day, hmmmm, now there's an idea ... ?

Great points, Hoax, about charitable acts and how the word "Christianity" has become synonymous with this... Don't forget also, that $id uses that 1.6 million a year to maintain his extremely extravagant lifestyle as well as his political campaign. Like Swami Beyondananda, $id has gone beyond charitable acts (that's for tillies!) and is looking after Number One ~ himself.

Great post, "I believe" and thanks for the news on what is happening in Australia. "Born Again Karmi" ~ good one! BAK = back to normalcy... Back to using my hard-earned money to feed and house myself (or should I say "my godamned body"!) and my family, instead of throwing my money to $id to spend on his castles on the sand... and as Jimi Hendrix once said, "Castles in the sand fall into the sea, eventually" ...


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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: October 24, 2007 02:02AM

I believed
"Kids that were aged above five that were presented to him by at least one loyalist parent were initiated since Siddha considers five the age where one is supossed to become serious about their spiritual life (no more toys, having to start to do all their rounds etc.)"


This is news to me, and unbelievable. Forcing a five year old child to "chant rounds" seems very wrong to me, somehow.

I think the Catholics have "confirmation" for children at age 7, which is considered the age of reasoning by a lot of people.

Expecting a child to chant 16 rounds of Hare Krishna on beads seems downright crazy.

Thanks for presenting this info, I believed.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: hoax108 ()
Date: October 24, 2007 02:49AM


In Catholicism, First Communion is usually conferred at the age of 7 (the age of reason) and Confirmation in the faith is conferred usually around 12-14 years of age. Generally speaking.

The posts from IB seem to confirm and commune with all of the info that has been posted in this forum. And then some.

I can't help thinking that SIF and FL may be worse than I even considered. What a tangled web.

Many thanks to God for getting me out of there!

Many thanks to all you posters who have supported me (even just by posting and sharing) and helped me come to terms with my experience with the cult .

Thank you all so much!!

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: I Believed ()
Date: October 24, 2007 09:41AM

Sorry about was running late for work yesterday.

With regards to kids chanting rounds it was then and is now said that the first four years are for playing and then it is time to get serious. Apparently this is in the scripture. I am not up enough on scripture to confirm if this is true or not. It depends whose followers you ask anyway.

Were you separated from your family for years?

I was at the school for almost two years beginning when I was six. I was not allowed to see or speak to my father in this time. My contact with my mother who stayed with Siddha was very limited. She was going along with the need to focus more on service indoctrination. I know that she regrets thinking that way now. I have trouble forgiving her completely still but she is also my mother. We are not particularly close because of this krishna bs in our lives. I do agree with Rama's sentiments when he says that people shouldn't have kids if they don't want to look after them or accept them as little people.

What work did you do there?

We were made to cook food for all the adults, gather flowers, the girls made garlands for the gatherings, clean up the place. What we were told basically. Some of the bigger kids were made to clean up after the adults, scrub toilets, do their laundry and all that.

The company did not exist when I was there but I am genuinely concerned about the plans to move Vege Chips to PI. There is also the concern that a lot of the Wai Lana merchandice is made in PI. There is a need for more research into this to gather compelling evidence but there is a lot of talk around the Gold Coast (PI is not that far away from Oz) about this and that being made by their friends in PI. Friends of course read other devotees.

What were the living conditions?

Very basic. Huts. Sleeping on mats on the floor with a blanket. Rice and milk diet. No indoor plumbing like those camp toilets. No hot showers. Washed out of a bucket. Cold. Wet. Neglected.

Were you allowed to question or have doubts?

Of course not. The bhramacharins hit you if you mouthed off or stepped out of line. I was too young to think really but I saw the other boys getting into trouble for stuff like that and not doing what they were told when they were told. The bastards there were really cold and cruel.

What were you not allowed to do?

We had no toys, no books except the krishna books we were given. We were not allowed to contact our parents had to wait for them to contact us and it was not encouraged. If you were hungry after what they gave you or didn't give you that was just too bad. It was segregated with a seperate girls school. We had no contact with anyone other than devotees whatsoever. If you got sick it was a big deal to take you to a doctor, you practically had to be dying. I remember being sick but I never saw a doctor or was given any medicine or chicken soup (lol) or even a nice word.

Were you treated kindly by teachers and peers?

Teachers lol these were bhramacharins that had no idea about kids just crapping on all day about krishna this and srila prabhupad that. They did whatever they liked and when they wanted to feel like good devotees they told themselves they were doing service to do something with us.

Did you know of any physical or sexual abuse at the PI school?

Physical abuse yes. Sexual abuse not to me but I have reasons to believe yes. I know of sexual abuse in Australia.

Were there any kids with special needs or disabilities?
How are they educated or treated?
Were you raised to give them up for adoption?

No. Siddha tells people that these children are not special and should not be called special because that gives other kids the idea that they want to be special too. He tells people to give kids like this away. Even adults that have disabilities are treated like shit unless they are a big time disciple (and they would never get sick right because krishna loves them too much) My mum told me once when I saw a kid that had something that I would now say was probably cerebal palsy in a wheelchair that they were like that because of bad karma in a past life and because their parents were demons and that it was their bad karma too that they had to raise a kid like that.

Have you or your parents ever met Chris Butler personally?

I have seen him a few times. Not like I went up and sat on his lap like santa though. I doubt he would know me from any of the rest. My parents have yes but they were mainly influenced by Tusta.

Are you an adult now? Did you get skills to support yourself now?

Yes. I don't want to give my exact age but late twenties seems to be popular among the disgruntled. I ended up going to a real public school and I really appreciated it after PI. Not that I was a genius or anything but I really liked school. It was the most normal part of my life as I saw it. I have a job now and my own place and all that stuff. Pay my own bills. I am lucky compared to some for sure. If not for my mum burning out I have plenty of examples as to how I could have ended up a lot worse off.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: October 24, 2007 09:02PM

I'm surprised the Fearless Leader has not become paranoid about the "chemtrails" theory, seeing as how he is so concerned about the quality of the air...

I met a guy a couple of weeks ago who was going on and on about these chemtrails, saying that the government was polluting the air with airborne diseases, etc., and to tell you the truth, I THOUGHT HE WAS CRAZY...

However, further investigation through the media of YouTube reveals the following:


this clip ^ is 23 minutes long but is definetely worth watching.


this clip ^ is 8 minutes long and is also worth watching.

MIKE GABBARD, if you are reading this, why are you not raising this issue??? Does this not seem more important than the homosexual problem, which is miniscule in comparison to this?

Is Prez Bush behind this conspiracy, and if so, why did your Fearless Leader tell his followers to vote for him?

This is the man that the Fearless Leader has told his followers to vote for:


This clip ^ is very short and is definitely worth watching.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: Dassi ()
Date: October 25, 2007 07:33AM

Thank you IB for answering my questions.
To think I almost raised my child in this crap makes me shudder
... I thank my lucky stars (or critical thinking skills)
for getting out shortly after the birth.
A light bulb went on when I was pregnant.
And my kid turned out really well.
A real shining light.
I feel like I narrowly escaped really f*cking up my kid completely.

I am sure all of us here on the forum wish you well
and a full recovery.

Are you in touch with a lot of devotee kids
who feel the same way as you do?
I'm not clear if you are all the way out of the group or not.

I understand the need for discretion
but us old people have been in the dark
about the direction of the cult.

It saddens me deeply
and I feel as if I escaped a great danger.

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