Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: November 11, 2007 03:22AM
Quote
Jules
When I heard this tragic news it really upset me.
Beharilal was a good friend and truly a nice guy.
I had heard he was kicked out of of Managing DTE- FYI he had managed that store for years. Hardly was paid a dime I remember he used to sell cars on the side. He lived in one of those bunker type Hawaiian shacks and gave all he had to Sid. And yes he was there from the beginning and sadly till his end.
He moved back to CA. And for all those who were actively involved, you remember how it works. When you get "kicked" out, no-one wants to know you, let alone help you. That little fear when you are on the inside- "that could be me next", each man for himself. Sickening position to be in and yes id does take help to get through that.
Didn't his second wife take off with the New DTE Manager who took the reins from him!
When you hit the outside world after being coddled in SIF/Sid/DTE 24/7 for 35 odd years, that's gotta be tough.
His family was long gone, and the life as he knew it was over. What pieces are there to pick up, life has no meaning when you are in that state. And the one person (SID) who could have helped him turned his back on him. He was too busy with his empire, Poor Beharilal didn't fit into that picture anymore. Perhaps there was someone younger, more eager to please and easier to exploit who came on the scene.
When you are on the inside it's not about how sincere you are it's all about what you can offer the man. He calls this service, I now call it exploitation for ones own gain.
It's really disgusting the abuse that goes on in SIF. And Sid I label you an abuser in the worst form. You have become that "low life" that you love to degrade in those infamous lectures you used to give.
God I would cringe when I heard you constantly putting people down. I would want to block my ears but wouldn't because of fear of being banished.
Now I stand up to people like you, and yes they do exist on the outside as well. They don't label themselves "Jagad Guru" Leader of the world though, instead they are called a---holes and generally don't know what the meaning of a friend is.
Beharilal taking his life is your responsibility SID it happened on your watch when you were supposed to be taking care of God's children.
One person is enough tradgedy, but this was not an isolated incident, and the situation has not changed. I know that those speaking here understand that. I just hope that point gets through to any devotees that might be reading.
I know of a young girl whose family was split up when one parent wanted to leave and the other wanted to stay. As she got older she became very troubled despite her "good proper upbringing" and very devoted (too busy serving to notice) mother and step father.
She wasn't allowed to have any contact with her father, couldn't get a job because she had no education and could hardly read or write. She had no friends to turn to because they were all cult kids and when she did confide in one they spoke to their disciplic parents and she found herself shunned. She had to look elsewhere and not equipped to live in the real world it was easy for her to fall into bad company.
Older teenage guys were happy to use her naivity and ache for human affection to have sex with her and expose her to drugs. No doubt devotees would say that she was fallen and not trying hard enough, but they forget what leads up to these problems - that they are the root cause. Chris Butler is the cause of all causes as far as these problems are concerned.
Of course she was not a bad kid. A bit of alcohol and pot is certainly not good but a lot of people turn to drugs because they just want to get away from their lives.
Her own mother cut her off because of course she didn't want the same shunning for herself. This is what Chris Butler tells his followers to do. Don't associate with anyone who's strayed away from me - or it might happen to you!!!
The saddest part of the story was that she would try to come to the gatherings now and again. Still. Her family and her friends were there. The only people that she had ever known really. She was sick, looked like she hadn't had any food or been in a position to look after herself well. She wanted to chant but they sent her away because of the influence that she might have on the other young people. The next time any of them heard of her she was dead.
It would suit the devotees to make this a cautionary tale about drug use but it seemed most likely that she meant to die. She was only seventeen at the most.
When I pray for anyone I pray that those who are still here might unite to tell the truth about Chris Butler so that this can never happen again.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
terrenaut
()
Date: November 11, 2007 04:03AM
maybe we need a sub-thread here, where people can post about the known suicides. I had only heard about Beharilal. Now I wonder how many others? I know people who have become very depressed and then I don't see them around anymore, but being a good devotee of course I am not supposed to ask.
I would really like to know about the suicide rate, and I am also sure that everybody needs to hear about this. Thanks to you, SOI Kills for your information.
I would really like to know about the suicide rate, and I am also sure that everybody needs to hear about this. Thanks to you, SOI Kills for your information.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: November 11, 2007 06:14AM
There is no way that I would be able to fully answer that question and I think that it could be a very difficult task for anyone.
There really is no way to tell how many people have suffered severe depression, disassociative disorder, meditation induced psychosis or just sheer hopelessness and who have been led to or attempted suicide. Or people who were shunned as a result of the experience.
There were at least two on the Gold Coast during the 1990s. One was a guy that was disturbed by succombing to the sexuality of Radha Doyle (perhaps "Margaret" would like to add this to her page on the ASM website) and one that claimed to be because he was distubed by having a sexual attraction towards children (alledgedly he left a note to this effect, although given the tendency of devotees to slander the disobedient I think this could deserve some reasonable doubt).
The girl I was referring to died in the 90s also.
I have heard of at least three in Hawaii during the early days.
There was a very tragic case of a young guy killing his friend in Australia and there is a similar case in Hawaii with a young guy attempting to murder his brother.
I have also heard of a few cases of father's who were shunned and lost their kids being driven to serious contemplation and attempts.
There is really not much more than that which I am able to say. I hope maybe there could be some sort of memorial one day to remember these people and document the disgusting nature of this cult.
There really is no way to tell how many people have suffered severe depression, disassociative disorder, meditation induced psychosis or just sheer hopelessness and who have been led to or attempted suicide. Or people who were shunned as a result of the experience.
There were at least two on the Gold Coast during the 1990s. One was a guy that was disturbed by succombing to the sexuality of Radha Doyle (perhaps "Margaret" would like to add this to her page on the ASM website) and one that claimed to be because he was distubed by having a sexual attraction towards children (alledgedly he left a note to this effect, although given the tendency of devotees to slander the disobedient I think this could deserve some reasonable doubt).
The girl I was referring to died in the 90s also.
I have heard of at least three in Hawaii during the early days.
There was a very tragic case of a young guy killing his friend in Australia and there is a similar case in Hawaii with a young guy attempting to murder his brother.
I have also heard of a few cases of father's who were shunned and lost their kids being driven to serious contemplation and attempts.
There is really not much more than that which I am able to say. I hope maybe there could be some sort of memorial one day to remember these people and document the disgusting nature of this cult.
corboy on taking beliefs out of the cultural context
Posted by:
Dassi
()
Date: November 12, 2007 06:59AM
What follows is another excellent post by "corboy" from 2004 in response to a thread about people leaving ISKCON.
[forum.culteducation.com]
corboy wrote:
When an authentic Asian belief system is taken out of its cultural context and transmitted by a single, ambitious person to Westerners who have not been taught how to tell an authentic guru from a wannabe, problems arise.
Indians are well aware that one must test the authenticity of a guru. One teacher told us that there was a Sanskrit proverb that, in English reads:
'A greedy guru and an impatient disciple are both suspended over the pit of hell.'
But, when someone transmits a tradition outside its cultural context, what is the likelihood that the person will teach students that particular Sanskrit proverb?
Sophistication in relation to the claims of gurus is just as important as teaching the Bhaghavad Gita.
Bhakti must be balanced with healthy skepticism/critical thinking otherwise, the practitioner will become emtionally and intellectually constricted, feeling blissful yet diminished as a human being.
Every old culture has its cautions and traditions of skepticism about clergy, along with equally ancient veneration of holy persons, places and things. In one part of Austria the farmers would say, 'Our pastor is a bum--except for his holy ordination.' (Meaning they had no respect for him as a man, but knew he could still administer valid sacraments)
In some parts of the Eastern Orthodox world, theres the proverb, 'Monks take the vows, but the laity keep them'---namely the lay people often live harder lives than monks and that without the laity, the monks could not survive.
In his book The Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism, Agehananda Bharati who was Austrian-born, a Sanskrit scholar, anthropologist, and a Sannyasi (renunciate) monk, wrote (in the mid-970s) that authentic Hindu monks and gurus did NOT prosyletize to non-Hindus, and confined their outreach to India.
The highest authorities in Hinduism did not concern themselves with non-Hindus, nor with the welfare of non-Hindus who were being harmed by charlatans who posed as the genuine article.
'What are the standards whereby the teachings can and must be checked? Very simple. For Vedanta-talk, primary Vedanta scripture, for Yoga-talk, primary yoga scripture, together with the consensus of learned primary-source based opinion. The Sanskrit orginals and their commentaries are the written standards; the first catagory of monks and Hindu scholars, the Hindu theologicans who operate in Sanskrit only, not in translations, and who do NOT seek universal acceptance for the teachings involved, these are the personal standards...
'these authorities do not learn English (Bharati wrote this in the mid-1970s, one wonders if this has changed or stayed the same)...the standard authorities, the learned monks and pandits, in India could not care less about the roaming swamis and their flock. The standard setters are elitist, often arrogant, and outspokenly against any form of prosyletization.*
*(moderator note--Which means that in the 1970s, when Bharati wrote , anyone who went outside of India to prosyletize non-Hindus, was not qualified to teach or transmit any authentic Hindu practice, because those qualified to do so would not have left India or targeted non-Hindus. )
Bharti continues 'In fact if some eager Hindus or occidentals do penetrate to their lofty abodes in the mathas of South India or the learned houses of Benares, these monastics and lay scholars try to ward them off, stall them, send them away. If they are finally cornered, they do not hold out any hopes for the transmission of the sacred lore to outsiders...and yet, if claims to teaching Yoga, Vedanta, and 'Hindu Philosophy' are made in India or abroad, it is only these haughty people who can tell if these claims are true. Such a confrontation, however does not come about. Or not yet. It is the critical scholars who will crack the code somer or later.'
(The Light at the Center pp 173-174)
Indians have a term for teachers who are not taken seriously by guru-savvy Indians, but who impress naive Westerners who dont know the difference between genuine Hinduism and distortions of Hinduism:
These are termed 'export gurus'--harking back to the old days when boatloads of inferior quality porcelain was shipped from China to Europe.
Both veneration and healthy skepticism have to be transmitted if a spiritual practice is to remain healthy in a new environment, far from its original home. The problem is, ambitious gurus are often mavericks and they dont take the care to teach skepticism along with veneration.
***Another EXCELLENT sign is when a foreign teacher establishes a center in the West and then brings in other teachers who represent the tradition, ensuring that the Western students learn the material from more than one person. And it will be an especially good indicator if these Western students are encouraged to go to the country where the tradition is indigenous, then return to the Western center and bring their insights with them.
The great teachers do not seek to monopolize their student's perspectives. They put thier personalities to serve the tradition and the welfare of their students, they dont make the tradition and students serve the teacher's personality.
[forum.culteducation.com]
corboy wrote:
When an authentic Asian belief system is taken out of its cultural context and transmitted by a single, ambitious person to Westerners who have not been taught how to tell an authentic guru from a wannabe, problems arise.
Indians are well aware that one must test the authenticity of a guru. One teacher told us that there was a Sanskrit proverb that, in English reads:
'A greedy guru and an impatient disciple are both suspended over the pit of hell.'
But, when someone transmits a tradition outside its cultural context, what is the likelihood that the person will teach students that particular Sanskrit proverb?
Sophistication in relation to the claims of gurus is just as important as teaching the Bhaghavad Gita.
Bhakti must be balanced with healthy skepticism/critical thinking otherwise, the practitioner will become emtionally and intellectually constricted, feeling blissful yet diminished as a human being.
Every old culture has its cautions and traditions of skepticism about clergy, along with equally ancient veneration of holy persons, places and things. In one part of Austria the farmers would say, 'Our pastor is a bum--except for his holy ordination.' (Meaning they had no respect for him as a man, but knew he could still administer valid sacraments)
In some parts of the Eastern Orthodox world, theres the proverb, 'Monks take the vows, but the laity keep them'---namely the lay people often live harder lives than monks and that without the laity, the monks could not survive.
In his book The Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism, Agehananda Bharati who was Austrian-born, a Sanskrit scholar, anthropologist, and a Sannyasi (renunciate) monk, wrote (in the mid-970s) that authentic Hindu monks and gurus did NOT prosyletize to non-Hindus, and confined their outreach to India.
The highest authorities in Hinduism did not concern themselves with non-Hindus, nor with the welfare of non-Hindus who were being harmed by charlatans who posed as the genuine article.
'What are the standards whereby the teachings can and must be checked? Very simple. For Vedanta-talk, primary Vedanta scripture, for Yoga-talk, primary yoga scripture, together with the consensus of learned primary-source based opinion. The Sanskrit orginals and their commentaries are the written standards; the first catagory of monks and Hindu scholars, the Hindu theologicans who operate in Sanskrit only, not in translations, and who do NOT seek universal acceptance for the teachings involved, these are the personal standards...
'these authorities do not learn English (Bharati wrote this in the mid-1970s, one wonders if this has changed or stayed the same)...the standard authorities, the learned monks and pandits, in India could not care less about the roaming swamis and their flock. The standard setters are elitist, often arrogant, and outspokenly against any form of prosyletization.*
*(moderator note--Which means that in the 1970s, when Bharati wrote , anyone who went outside of India to prosyletize non-Hindus, was not qualified to teach or transmit any authentic Hindu practice, because those qualified to do so would not have left India or targeted non-Hindus. )
Bharti continues 'In fact if some eager Hindus or occidentals do penetrate to their lofty abodes in the mathas of South India or the learned houses of Benares, these monastics and lay scholars try to ward them off, stall them, send them away. If they are finally cornered, they do not hold out any hopes for the transmission of the sacred lore to outsiders...and yet, if claims to teaching Yoga, Vedanta, and 'Hindu Philosophy' are made in India or abroad, it is only these haughty people who can tell if these claims are true. Such a confrontation, however does not come about. Or not yet. It is the critical scholars who will crack the code somer or later.'
(The Light at the Center pp 173-174)
Indians have a term for teachers who are not taken seriously by guru-savvy Indians, but who impress naive Westerners who dont know the difference between genuine Hinduism and distortions of Hinduism:
These are termed 'export gurus'--harking back to the old days when boatloads of inferior quality porcelain was shipped from China to Europe.
Both veneration and healthy skepticism have to be transmitted if a spiritual practice is to remain healthy in a new environment, far from its original home. The problem is, ambitious gurus are often mavericks and they dont take the care to teach skepticism along with veneration.
***Another EXCELLENT sign is when a foreign teacher establishes a center in the West and then brings in other teachers who represent the tradition, ensuring that the Western students learn the material from more than one person. And it will be an especially good indicator if these Western students are encouraged to go to the country where the tradition is indigenous, then return to the Western center and bring their insights with them.
The great teachers do not seek to monopolize their student's perspectives. They put thier personalities to serve the tradition and the welfare of their students, they dont make the tradition and students serve the teacher's personality.
re: SOLUTIONS
Posted by:
Dassi
()
Date: November 12, 2007 07:43AM
This is just one person's opinion.
As far as solutions go,
I would hope that the people involved with creating the new "Cult of Butler" website
would avoid past mis-steps and consider the following:
- #1 - Improve the writing
- Have a clear and mature vision of what you want to accomplish and do it in a clean way
- Your best bet is to provide a reputable and professional website that will inform and educate the public
- Do not engage in sensationalist discourse and speculation for the sake of readership
- Stick to known and verifiable facts, not just rumor and heresay (of course the forum section is not in your control)
- Provide resources and links to experts and solutions outside of the "cult of butler" website (in other words, do not set yourself up as an authority without really being one --- don't do what Chris does --- know who you are or are not --- let others who have the experience and expertise guide you and support you)
- Provide good articles the calibre of "corboy" posts on this forum (well written, well researched)
- Focus on solutions
- Be professional
- Make it universal, not personal
- Keep the humor
- Don't be preachy
- Critique and attack the philosophy and leadership, not individual members
- Monitor the forum and allow people to PM each other privately (don't let it degenerate into a battle ground for the rude and the trolls)
- Respect other points of view (not everyone wants to be a Vaishnava after they leave)
- Get experts and professionals to write your articles based on research (such as dangerous meditation techniques and mind control)
- Be a facilitator and a bridge builder for those who want to leave the cult (in other words, be a positive force as opposed to a negative, destructive one)
It has been pointed out to me that since the advent of the "cult of butler" website, there are more and more SoI websites than ever---- and then "cult of butler" came down.....
I hope that when it comes back up, that it is run with integrity and is a good counter balance to ASM or other related cult propaganda.
As far as solutions go,
I would hope that the people involved with creating the new "Cult of Butler" website
would avoid past mis-steps and consider the following:
- #1 - Improve the writing
- Have a clear and mature vision of what you want to accomplish and do it in a clean way
- Your best bet is to provide a reputable and professional website that will inform and educate the public
- Do not engage in sensationalist discourse and speculation for the sake of readership
- Stick to known and verifiable facts, not just rumor and heresay (of course the forum section is not in your control)
- Provide resources and links to experts and solutions outside of the "cult of butler" website (in other words, do not set yourself up as an authority without really being one --- don't do what Chris does --- know who you are or are not --- let others who have the experience and expertise guide you and support you)
- Provide good articles the calibre of "corboy" posts on this forum (well written, well researched)
- Focus on solutions
- Be professional
- Make it universal, not personal
- Keep the humor
- Don't be preachy
- Critique and attack the philosophy and leadership, not individual members
- Monitor the forum and allow people to PM each other privately (don't let it degenerate into a battle ground for the rude and the trolls)
- Respect other points of view (not everyone wants to be a Vaishnava after they leave)
- Get experts and professionals to write your articles based on research (such as dangerous meditation techniques and mind control)
- Be a facilitator and a bridge builder for those who want to leave the cult (in other words, be a positive force as opposed to a negative, destructive one)
It has been pointed out to me that since the advent of the "cult of butler" website, there are more and more SoI websites than ever---- and then "cult of butler" came down.....
I hope that when it comes back up, that it is run with integrity and is a good counter balance to ASM or other related cult propaganda.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: November 12, 2007 12:20PM
One person's opinion? Ok if you say so - sounds as if the old guard has had a meeting.
The site was not perfect and did not claim to be, but it was an effort by someone with the desire and determination to confront problems that the critics were happy enough to ignore.
Didn't you say you would have no more to do with the site?
That was after you declared it very well written?
Since you have denounced the site and vilified it's owner what right do you feel to appoint yourself as director?
Do you have the money available to pay for "experts" to write articles?
CultofButler started out with a quaint utopian vision which did not work because others did not want to get help out or involve themselves. It is true that some information was provided, but that information was also compromised by the lack of credibility of anonymous sources, as much of the information available on this forum unfortunately is.
SoI put up constant harrassment, hacking attempts creating technical problems and personal problems. The information was limited and had to be backed up by months of (poorly funded) research in addition to written while suffering very poor personal circumstances.
You can't have revolution by remote control Dassi. When you have any courage to stand up to Chris Butler yourself and stop dividing loyalty to current members who are responsible for abuses within the cult to day and drop the superiority that is unbecoming of someone who has done nothing themselves then maybe you will be taken seriously.
The site was not perfect and did not claim to be, but it was an effort by someone with the desire and determination to confront problems that the critics were happy enough to ignore.
Didn't you say you would have no more to do with the site?
That was after you declared it very well written?
Since you have denounced the site and vilified it's owner what right do you feel to appoint yourself as director?
Do you have the money available to pay for "experts" to write articles?
CultofButler started out with a quaint utopian vision which did not work because others did not want to get help out or involve themselves. It is true that some information was provided, but that information was also compromised by the lack of credibility of anonymous sources, as much of the information available on this forum unfortunately is.
SoI put up constant harrassment, hacking attempts creating technical problems and personal problems. The information was limited and had to be backed up by months of (poorly funded) research in addition to written while suffering very poor personal circumstances.
You can't have revolution by remote control Dassi. When you have any courage to stand up to Chris Butler yourself and stop dividing loyalty to current members who are responsible for abuses within the cult to day and drop the superiority that is unbecoming of someone who has done nothing themselves then maybe you will be taken seriously.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: November 12, 2007 12:54PM
For the purpose of clarity CultofButler is not my website, it belongs to Cara James.
She does not read or post on this forum for reasons she has already stated herself including constant personal attacks by those who appear as 'allies', trolls and hostile former (?) disciples.
The focus of the new site is as follows :
Documenting the nature, history and 'science' of SoI.
This includes facts about Chris Butler personally and in his career as a guru. It will not be swayed by fond memories or subverted by sentiment of former members who among other things have claimed they maintain anomisity because Chris Butler is 'very powerful', implying that he has supernatural abilites, which he certainly claims.
The practices of meditation, the science of identity, yoga etc will be reported from the perspective that they are 'pseudo-sciences' backed by professional research from the scientific community and networking with skeptics organisations.
All members who can be identified will be named and their photos will be published. No corresspondence or debate here will be entered into by anyone related to the site. The policy is if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. SoI members lie because they know they are doing the wrong thing and are ashamed of their guru and cult. These lies are an integral part of recruitment since SoI relies so much on deception. The only reliable way to identify a recruiter (and all members are potential or active recruiters) is by knowing who they are.
Some people object to this based on their reasons and are free to disagree with the site's reasons as the site is free to disagree with theirs.
The focus is NOT on pandering to those who accept that a millionaire former hippie is a direct link to God but on stopping recruitment and profit by SoI.
Sympathy is reserved for the children of SoI who had no choice to be there and ultimately are there because of the actions of their parents which fly in the face of every normal parental instinct.
Activism will be focussed on the dissemination of information via the internet and AUSTRALIA. The site will support and help American and other country's activists but cannot realistically solve all the problems around the world.
All SoI sites are a direct result of Cara James created by followers with the aim of preventing others from access to the truth. SoI has been forced to sit up and take notice by her. In my opinion that should not single her out for criticism from those who claim to want to help the cause. Those who have helped her in doing this respect that she has done something and inspired and helped others to do the same.
She does not read or post on this forum for reasons she has already stated herself including constant personal attacks by those who appear as 'allies', trolls and hostile former (?) disciples.
The focus of the new site is as follows :
Documenting the nature, history and 'science' of SoI.
This includes facts about Chris Butler personally and in his career as a guru. It will not be swayed by fond memories or subverted by sentiment of former members who among other things have claimed they maintain anomisity because Chris Butler is 'very powerful', implying that he has supernatural abilites, which he certainly claims.
The practices of meditation, the science of identity, yoga etc will be reported from the perspective that they are 'pseudo-sciences' backed by professional research from the scientific community and networking with skeptics organisations.
All members who can be identified will be named and their photos will be published. No corresspondence or debate here will be entered into by anyone related to the site. The policy is if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. SoI members lie because they know they are doing the wrong thing and are ashamed of their guru and cult. These lies are an integral part of recruitment since SoI relies so much on deception. The only reliable way to identify a recruiter (and all members are potential or active recruiters) is by knowing who they are.
Some people object to this based on their reasons and are free to disagree with the site's reasons as the site is free to disagree with theirs.
The focus is NOT on pandering to those who accept that a millionaire former hippie is a direct link to God but on stopping recruitment and profit by SoI.
Sympathy is reserved for the children of SoI who had no choice to be there and ultimately are there because of the actions of their parents which fly in the face of every normal parental instinct.
Activism will be focussed on the dissemination of information via the internet and AUSTRALIA. The site will support and help American and other country's activists but cannot realistically solve all the problems around the world.
All SoI sites are a direct result of Cara James created by followers with the aim of preventing others from access to the truth. SoI has been forced to sit up and take notice by her. In my opinion that should not single her out for criticism from those who claim to want to help the cause. Those who have helped her in doing this respect that she has done something and inspired and helped others to do the same.
Re: corboy on taking beliefs out of the cultural context
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: November 12, 2007 06:25PM
The article by Corby is interesting to those who want to uphold Vaishnava views since essentially it is critical reasoning 101 with a spiritual bent.
All this banging on about traditions and breaking traditions does not at all reflect the history of Hinduism. The entire religion is an evolution of the ideas of one guru to the next. Chaitanya broke tradition, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami revised and redefined his guru's teachings and then renounced his godbrothers. That Chris Butler now claims to be the only genuine and enlightened disciple of Bhaktivedanta while doing things completely differently is actually following tradition.
Chris Butler actually cites the example that Bhaktivedanta broke from tradition and was poorly regarded by his godbrothers to support his own authenticity. The whole religion was created by Chaitanya as revolutionary departure from the tradition before him.
Constructing debate around spiritual issues and the composition of scripture is only giving validation to the image of an ancient and exotic tradition used to attempt to convince others that Vaishnavism is a safe and tested practice. It is an infinite debate on both sides.
Rather than Chaitanya or so and so deva Chris Butler should be compared to David Koresh and Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard. Once one widens their perspective of cults it is realised they all go for the ancient and exotic and proceed to structure a cult around it. It has less to do with failing to follow the proper traditions and charlatan messiahs than it does with the age old habit of the powers that be finding ways to control the masses.
In India there was a different cult in every region with their own gurus and deities and as the country became more unified by various means people were reluctant to give up their beliefs, so they were blended together to create the all things to all men Hinduism in India today.
What use is it really to go to India? It is a land of horrific poverty among the highest HIV infection and infant mortality rates in the world, half the population is illiterate and there is a guru on every corner. Religion is one of the few exports these people have and it is a very popular profession in India for those who can do nothing else to become gurus.
When Chris Butler went to India he hated the place and didn't stay, eventhough he was travelling with Bhaktivedanta and has never gone back. He tells his followers that there is no need to go to India and I have often wondered if the reason for this is because more than anything it could not help but prompt people to ask if a kind, all-loving, infinitely merciful God really exists.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2007 06:30PM by SoI Kills.
All this banging on about traditions and breaking traditions does not at all reflect the history of Hinduism. The entire religion is an evolution of the ideas of one guru to the next. Chaitanya broke tradition, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami revised and redefined his guru's teachings and then renounced his godbrothers. That Chris Butler now claims to be the only genuine and enlightened disciple of Bhaktivedanta while doing things completely differently is actually following tradition.
Chris Butler actually cites the example that Bhaktivedanta broke from tradition and was poorly regarded by his godbrothers to support his own authenticity. The whole religion was created by Chaitanya as revolutionary departure from the tradition before him.
Constructing debate around spiritual issues and the composition of scripture is only giving validation to the image of an ancient and exotic tradition used to attempt to convince others that Vaishnavism is a safe and tested practice. It is an infinite debate on both sides.
Rather than Chaitanya or so and so deva Chris Butler should be compared to David Koresh and Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard. Once one widens their perspective of cults it is realised they all go for the ancient and exotic and proceed to structure a cult around it. It has less to do with failing to follow the proper traditions and charlatan messiahs than it does with the age old habit of the powers that be finding ways to control the masses.
In India there was a different cult in every region with their own gurus and deities and as the country became more unified by various means people were reluctant to give up their beliefs, so they were blended together to create the all things to all men Hinduism in India today.
What use is it really to go to India? It is a land of horrific poverty among the highest HIV infection and infant mortality rates in the world, half the population is illiterate and there is a guru on every corner. Religion is one of the few exports these people have and it is a very popular profession in India for those who can do nothing else to become gurus.
When Chris Butler went to India he hated the place and didn't stay, eventhough he was travelling with Bhaktivedanta and has never gone back. He tells his followers that there is no need to go to India and I have often wondered if the reason for this is because more than anything it could not help but prompt people to ask if a kind, all-loving, infinitely merciful God really exists.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2007 06:30PM by SoI Kills.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: November 15, 2007 06:21PM
SRILA PRABHUFRAUD GOES POLITICAL...
CONTROLS THE GABBARD FAMILY...
OR, HOW THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH GOT LOST
Here's something you won't see in the newspapers or on TV:
Oooooops, a CIA agent in the Philippines accidentally blew his legs off while planting explosives to fake another "terrorist bombing"!
One can only wonder what other global "terrorist attacks" were perpetrated by the CIA and not "Al Queda"... The large explosion in Bali, for one, comes to mind. (Didn't that one serve the purpose to bring the Australians on board?)
What a scam! Get CIA agents to plant explosives to kill Westerners around the world, and then get the media to point the finger at the "terrorists" and so create a hate/hate situation.
Tulsi Gabbard, instead of listening to her Fearless Leader, should have studied more website like this before merrily marching off to war:
[www.hermes-press.com]
They're making us go insane, indeed.
CONTROLS THE GABBARD FAMILY...
OR, HOW THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH GOT LOST
Here's something you won't see in the newspapers or on TV:
Oooooops, a CIA agent in the Philippines accidentally blew his legs off while planting explosives to fake another "terrorist bombing"!
One can only wonder what other global "terrorist attacks" were perpetrated by the CIA and not "Al Queda"... The large explosion in Bali, for one, comes to mind. (Didn't that one serve the purpose to bring the Australians on board?)
What a scam! Get CIA agents to plant explosives to kill Westerners around the world, and then get the media to point the finger at the "terrorists" and so create a hate/hate situation.
Tulsi Gabbard, instead of listening to her Fearless Leader, should have studied more website like this before merrily marching off to war:
[www.hermes-press.com]
They're making us go insane, indeed.
Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: November 15, 2007 06:58PM
NOTE: the above link in the last post -- click right box "Next Series" -- then click on "They're Driving Us Insane" -- about soldiers in Iraq war.
An interesting website, but can be confusing to maneuver around.
I wonder if Fearless Leader is still spouting "Vote for Bush" ???
An interesting website, but can be confusing to maneuver around.
I wonder if Fearless Leader is still spouting "Vote for Bush" ???
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