Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: May 30, 2007 06:04AM
Hi Rick Ross,
I sincerely hope you reconsider your position as Zelig was being accused of attacking Cara's attempts to expose SIF long before my pointing out that you had already banned him previously for being a cult apologist. Now zelig has posted a long list of very serious allegations against Cara, a couple of pages back, (which he is perfectly with in his right to do so) yet when I requested evidence of these allegations he refrained from offering any.
Having read this entire thread I have not seen any evidence of these "claims" and I do not see Cara's anger in this regard as being unprovoked.
If you would care to, please read the following posts from Zelig to you Rick when he was posting as Initiate which clearly show him to be a cult apologist. In his final posts he also accused you Rick of personally attacking him. He criticises other cult activists and defends other cults.
[board.culteducation.com]
Here is evidence against Zelig that Cara's claims are legitimate now I would like to once again see evidence of Zelig's allegations. I would also like to see evidence of claims that Zelig has conducted any research of SIF that has been contributed to this thread. There isn't any. He also put time into convincing Cara to write a book which would mean that information was not posted on the net. Again he tried to convince her not to post information on members of SIF.
He has spent much of his time criticising Cara and I am quite frankly tired of it aswell.
Please reconsider your position Rick so that the real SIF cult activist Cara can do her job without Zelig's irrelevant and/or critical rants.
Sincerely,
MeanReds
I sincerely hope you reconsider your position as Zelig was being accused of attacking Cara's attempts to expose SIF long before my pointing out that you had already banned him previously for being a cult apologist. Now zelig has posted a long list of very serious allegations against Cara, a couple of pages back, (which he is perfectly with in his right to do so) yet when I requested evidence of these allegations he refrained from offering any.
Having read this entire thread I have not seen any evidence of these "claims" and I do not see Cara's anger in this regard as being unprovoked.
If you would care to, please read the following posts from Zelig to you Rick when he was posting as Initiate which clearly show him to be a cult apologist. In his final posts he also accused you Rick of personally attacking him. He criticises other cult activists and defends other cults.
[board.culteducation.com]
Here is evidence against Zelig that Cara's claims are legitimate now I would like to once again see evidence of Zelig's allegations. I would also like to see evidence of claims that Zelig has conducted any research of SIF that has been contributed to this thread. There isn't any. He also put time into convincing Cara to write a book which would mean that information was not posted on the net. Again he tried to convince her not to post information on members of SIF.
He has spent much of his time criticising Cara and I am quite frankly tired of it aswell.
Please reconsider your position Rick so that the real SIF cult activist Cara can do her job without Zelig's irrelevant and/or critical rants.
Sincerely,
MeanReds
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: May 30, 2007 07:05AM
Just incase I am asked how I know that Zelig and Initiate are the same person can someone please explain to me the odds of two Jewish men (both of whom are accused of being a cult apologist) in SIF during the same period who were humiliated by their Jewish fathers and brothers who have as one example the following "identical" stories to tell:
Zelig wrote:
Here is Zelig's patented minimizing of SIF which seems to have been his sole purpose on this thread:
Zelig wrote:
Initiate wrote:Quote
I spoke with his father once on the telephone. Chris was really ill and needed a free antibiotic perscription. The acupuncture wasn't working. He gave strict instructions not to let his father know where he was. He loved his son very much and was pained not to have contact with him after he became a big time guru. I'll never forget that conversation - ever. Chris's father was always depicted as this materialistic, gross, angry meat-eating demon who yelled at his sensitive and spiritual son. In reality he was just a gentle and heart broken loving father who wanted to do good for others. This revelation, for me, was one of the "bricks in the wall".
[board.culteducation.com]
Quote
Once, Siddha was very ill. Katyayani was taking care of him but he was not getting better. He knew acupuncture and could treat himself quite well or taught others to help him. This must have been a bacterial infection. Katyayani asked me to call his father, who was a doctor. She said that she could not speak to him, he’d know her voice and to not let him know the location of the house. I called and explained that his son was very ill, described the symptoms and asked if he could prescribe some antibiotics. He asked a few questions and gave me the name of the pharmacy where we could pick up the meds. What I heard next, stunned me. Not so much the words, but the depth of grief they conveyed in their tone. He said that he had not heard from his son in a very long time and had no idea he was in Honolulu. He said, “Tell him I love him.” This man had a broken heart. He was not the crazed materialist that I had imagined.
[board.culteducation.com]
Here is Zelig's patented minimizing of SIF which seems to have been his sole purpose on this thread:
Quote
My assessment of this group is not black and white. When I looked over the "10 signs of a safe group/ leader" on this web site, Jagad Guru had 6. When I read the "10 signs of a potentially unsafe group/ leader", I found 4. In the "10 warning signs of people involved in a potentially unsafe group/leader", I saw 2. Realize that this is not neccessarily a valid assessment instrument, but it is reflective of the grey areas and nature of this group. If I put the same test to the US military or Donald Rumsfeld, they have more signs of a "potentially unsafe group/leader"!
You would have to admit the odds are extremely low.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 30, 2007 10:30PM
I have edited out some recent flames on this thread regarding cultreporter.
MeanReds:
You have raised an interesting question.
Are Zelig and Initiate the same person?
Well, let's wait to read what Zelig has to say about this.
If there is no meaningful response we can assume your theory is correct.
MeanReds:
You have raised an interesting question.
Are Zelig and Initiate the same person?
Well, let's wait to read what Zelig has to say about this.
If there is no meaningful response we can assume your theory is correct.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: May 31, 2007 03:52AM
The only truth to the theory is that I formerly posted as initiate and got kicked off for saying that I blamed the victims of cults for their folly. My opinion at the time was that followers bear a certain responsibility in joining and willfully participating in cults. I still believe this, but to a lesser or differing extent. I was naïve at the time and did not fully comprehend all of the subtle aspects of mind control.
My posts as Zelig, and even the above quotes only bear witness to my criticism of the Butler cult. Obviously, I did not try to hide the fact that I was ‘initiate’ and purposefully posted similar items so that my friends would recognize me. And this was before other exes began communicating with me privately off the forum. Again, I reiterate that my sole purpose on the forum is to report my experiences in Siddhaswarupananda’s cult, participate in the discussion, and to relay information to discourage people from entering the Science of Identity Foundation or any other cult. Period. I also offer up opinions and questions. One need not stretch the truth, speculate or exaggerate to show the cult for what it is; an injurious waste of time.
I am not a “cult apologist” as evidenced by all of my posts. Even the above quotes illustrate my pointing out some of the ‘red flags’ of a cult--- Siddhaswarupananda’s secrecy, estrangement from his family, and hypocrisy (having made everyone believe his father to be this yelling, heartless, materialist). I posted under another name so that I could continue to contribute to the forum. My critics and others have done the same.
Also, it is possible to have one’s opinions change and evolve when new information is presented. People change, places change. When I first took the “10 Signs” test, that is what I honestly assessed, based on my perceptions at the time. I actually felt good about the fact that it wasn’t as bad as some cults. It was enough to have escaped for the reasons I shared. I had not examined my experiences up to that time as much as I have in the last 12 months. At the time, (as ‘initiate’ on 5-17-06), I had yet to make the contacts and friendships to discuss freely with other exes that I currently have. I am not qualified to take the “10 Signs” test for the Cult of Butler 2007, as I have no direct experience of it. In light of what other’s are sharing or if I had different experiences, I would have scored differently.
Communicating with other exes opened up my understanding, even the with the ones who wish to continue to quarrel. I still stand by all my posts. The only exception is that I now know how easily it is to manipulate even intelligent and educated people. I understand that brainwashing and mind control is a lot more subtle than I initially believed. I now feel that we gentle people are more susceptible to our environment than I once believed. This is something that “initiate” did not completely comprehend. Note ‘zelig’s’ poll question, “Did you know you were in a cult when you were in a cult?” The majority said “No.”, including myself. I would not have thought to ask such a question prior to learning more on this website and elsewhere.
I can understand how people can misconstrue my posts and recently have tried to more carefully explain my points of view. I believe in accurate reporting without embellishment. I question everything. I also go through periods where I feel ambivalent about my past in the cult. I am not however, ambivalent about the harm done by the cult of Butler, Aish, Chabad, Hare Krishna, or any other! Anyone who follows my posts will get this. But you will see a pattern with me that seems contradictory, without understanding the qualifyers. With both the CB cult and Chabad; I don't see things in black and white. That is part of my personality. I try to look at the positive in life. I have a core belief system that sees an ultimately benevolent universe and everything is ultimately for the good. So readers can take that in mind when they read my posts. That said, it does not mean that I lay down passively when I see lies and injustice or throw out all of my critical thinking skills. On the contrary, focusing on the greater good makes one’s critical thinking skills sharper. One should question everything and look at issues from many sides. And one should use these tools in all aspects of one’s life.
My past experience with CB taught me some valuable lessons, but so have many other life experiences, both good and bad. That does not make me an apologist. I have learned that over time Siddhaswarupananda has become progressively more paranoid and obnoxious, but have known him to be a con man for a long time. Even in my most idealistic days I would not have eaten his toe nails! I offer opinions that differ from a few, but not all. That’s life. The free exchange of ideas is healthy. We do not all have to agree. I have not lobbied for censorship. I have not flamed anyone. I have been civil and focused on ideas and not people. I hope that I will continue to have the right to post and have a flame-free experience on this forum. As Rick said, “This is a huge thread with much information. Let's not ruin it with petty arguments and "flaming." Please be courteous and allow each other some space and understanding. Everyone does not need to agree on everything. Each person posting here has their own history with the group and personal situation. There may be some differences in individual experiences and perhaps specific interests. Please don't allow personality clashes ruin the dialog and exchange of ideas here.”
My posts as Zelig, and even the above quotes only bear witness to my criticism of the Butler cult. Obviously, I did not try to hide the fact that I was ‘initiate’ and purposefully posted similar items so that my friends would recognize me. And this was before other exes began communicating with me privately off the forum. Again, I reiterate that my sole purpose on the forum is to report my experiences in Siddhaswarupananda’s cult, participate in the discussion, and to relay information to discourage people from entering the Science of Identity Foundation or any other cult. Period. I also offer up opinions and questions. One need not stretch the truth, speculate or exaggerate to show the cult for what it is; an injurious waste of time.
I am not a “cult apologist” as evidenced by all of my posts. Even the above quotes illustrate my pointing out some of the ‘red flags’ of a cult--- Siddhaswarupananda’s secrecy, estrangement from his family, and hypocrisy (having made everyone believe his father to be this yelling, heartless, materialist). I posted under another name so that I could continue to contribute to the forum. My critics and others have done the same.
Also, it is possible to have one’s opinions change and evolve when new information is presented. People change, places change. When I first took the “10 Signs” test, that is what I honestly assessed, based on my perceptions at the time. I actually felt good about the fact that it wasn’t as bad as some cults. It was enough to have escaped for the reasons I shared. I had not examined my experiences up to that time as much as I have in the last 12 months. At the time, (as ‘initiate’ on 5-17-06), I had yet to make the contacts and friendships to discuss freely with other exes that I currently have. I am not qualified to take the “10 Signs” test for the Cult of Butler 2007, as I have no direct experience of it. In light of what other’s are sharing or if I had different experiences, I would have scored differently.
Communicating with other exes opened up my understanding, even the with the ones who wish to continue to quarrel. I still stand by all my posts. The only exception is that I now know how easily it is to manipulate even intelligent and educated people. I understand that brainwashing and mind control is a lot more subtle than I initially believed. I now feel that we gentle people are more susceptible to our environment than I once believed. This is something that “initiate” did not completely comprehend. Note ‘zelig’s’ poll question, “Did you know you were in a cult when you were in a cult?” The majority said “No.”, including myself. I would not have thought to ask such a question prior to learning more on this website and elsewhere.
I can understand how people can misconstrue my posts and recently have tried to more carefully explain my points of view. I believe in accurate reporting without embellishment. I question everything. I also go through periods where I feel ambivalent about my past in the cult. I am not however, ambivalent about the harm done by the cult of Butler, Aish, Chabad, Hare Krishna, or any other! Anyone who follows my posts will get this. But you will see a pattern with me that seems contradictory, without understanding the qualifyers. With both the CB cult and Chabad; I don't see things in black and white. That is part of my personality. I try to look at the positive in life. I have a core belief system that sees an ultimately benevolent universe and everything is ultimately for the good. So readers can take that in mind when they read my posts. That said, it does not mean that I lay down passively when I see lies and injustice or throw out all of my critical thinking skills. On the contrary, focusing on the greater good makes one’s critical thinking skills sharper. One should question everything and look at issues from many sides. And one should use these tools in all aspects of one’s life.
My past experience with CB taught me some valuable lessons, but so have many other life experiences, both good and bad. That does not make me an apologist. I have learned that over time Siddhaswarupananda has become progressively more paranoid and obnoxious, but have known him to be a con man for a long time. Even in my most idealistic days I would not have eaten his toe nails! I offer opinions that differ from a few, but not all. That’s life. The free exchange of ideas is healthy. We do not all have to agree. I have not lobbied for censorship. I have not flamed anyone. I have been civil and focused on ideas and not people. I hope that I will continue to have the right to post and have a flame-free experience on this forum. As Rick said, “This is a huge thread with much information. Let's not ruin it with petty arguments and "flaming." Please be courteous and allow each other some space and understanding. Everyone does not need to agree on everything. Each person posting here has their own history with the group and personal situation. There may be some differences in individual experiences and perhaps specific interests. Please don't allow personality clashes ruin the dialog and exchange of ideas here.”
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: May 31, 2007 03:54AM
This is the full post that was quoted out of context and not referenced with it’s url, followed by my further comments.
[board.culteducation.com]
From this alone you do not see a cult apology, but a person building the case against the cult. It already illustrates:
1. The guru is a fraud.
2. The guru is a labor rip off.
3. There were blind followers acting as watch dogs.
4. There was secrecy.
5. There was homophobia.
6. There were other issues of cultdom, yet to be addressed.
All this from my second post.
My comment about the US military was an obvious poor choice, but it came on the heels of Haditha and the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The violations of the CB cult in no way compares to the human rights violations that were perpetuated in these places, except in the power of the milieu, the culture of the environment. [www.salon.com]
The ‘New Scientist” article I posted on 4-19-2007 addressed how and why this can happen. [board.culteducation.com] This article was no more an apology for those occurrences than any of my posts!
A final word. I wrote a year ago, “I have no fear whatsoever of retaliation from this group.” I have also changed my mind on this as well. It should be self evident as to why.
[board.culteducation.com]
Quote
cuz wrote:
initiate,
How long have you been out? If you are thinking of writing book does that mean you are not afraid of retalaliation? When did you leave and for what reasons. What made you realize it was a cult? What are the misconceptions and what is true in the posts? Do you still have contact with cult members?
Tell us everything you know. If you are thinking of writing a book you must know plenty.
initiate wrote:
I will have to answer your questions and respond to the many posts in installments for lack of time. There's a lot to say. I have no fear whatsoever of retaliation from this group.
I left in stages from 1984 to 1990. Technically, I left in 1984, when I no longer worked for or received any direct instructions from Jagad Guru (Chris Butler). I simply packed up my things in Honolulu and moved back to the mainland. I continued to get communiques, but that eventually stopped, when I no longer responded. I can only speak of the time period from 1971 - 1990. I was in touch with many members and ex-members up until the mid 1990's. I lost touch the same way we lose touch with old friends -- moving and losing addresses.
I left for many reasons; some simple and some complex. The short answer is that I no longer believed that he was a pure devotee or God's representative on earth and got tired of working for little or nothing. I wanted to finish my education. Jagad Guru was changing and I was changing. Sorry to disappoint alarmists on this website, but I did not leave due to some trauma or nefarious goings on nor do I know anyone else who left for any reason that would be aired on 60 minutes. The only resistance I felt about leaving was from a couple of lower echelon, busy-body followers looking for gossip. They came by to ask why and if I had permission from Jagad Guru to leave. I just told them that it was none of their business.
My assessment of this group is not black and white. When I looked over the "10 signs of a safe group/ leader" on this web site, Jagad Guru had 6. When I read the "10 signs of a potentially unsafe group/ leader", I found 4. In the "10 warning signs of people involved in a potentially unsafe group/leader", I saw 2. Realize that this is not neccessarily a valid assessment instrument, but it is reflective of the grey areas and nature of this group. If I put the same test to the US military or Donald Rumsfeld, they have more signs of a "potentially unsafe group/leader"!
In future posts I will talk about the reasons behind the secrecy and homophobia, as well as involvement in politics. I'll also address other issues of cultdom.
From this alone you do not see a cult apology, but a person building the case against the cult. It already illustrates:
1. The guru is a fraud.
2. The guru is a labor rip off.
3. There were blind followers acting as watch dogs.
4. There was secrecy.
5. There was homophobia.
6. There were other issues of cultdom, yet to be addressed.
All this from my second post.
My comment about the US military was an obvious poor choice, but it came on the heels of Haditha and the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The violations of the CB cult in no way compares to the human rights violations that were perpetuated in these places, except in the power of the milieu, the culture of the environment. [www.salon.com]
The ‘New Scientist” article I posted on 4-19-2007 addressed how and why this can happen. [board.culteducation.com] This article was no more an apology for those occurrences than any of my posts!
A final word. I wrote a year ago, “I have no fear whatsoever of retaliation from this group.” I have also changed my mind on this as well. It should be self evident as to why.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: May 31, 2007 04:23AM
This was written but not posted on May 24.2007
I have no confusion about my tenure in the group. The twenty year assumption was made incorrectly.
Is the Science of Identity Foundation a cult? Yes, it is a cult.
If you become involved with Siddhaswarupananda or Jagad Guru, will it dangerous? Yes. How dangerous? In what ways? It’s laid out on over a hundred pages of Rick Ross’s forum. How did it get that way? In what way is it dangerous? Did every one share a common experience? These are the fine and defining lines. One stroke will make it appear as it was not. Another will bring it into focus. Still another will obscure the subtle lines. Every cult has similarities. This cult has its own peculiarities and history like no other (IMO).
Does the Science of Identity Foundation aggressively go out of their way to obliterate opposing views on the internet? Obviously. Google front page has progressively become a battle ground. This has been well covered on this forum.
Do we really know how far Jagad Guru will go to protect his cult? I don’t know. But I knew enough years ago to motivate me to leave, without the toe nail eating or putting bags on people’s heads. I just realized that he was a con man and a fraud who accepted volunteer, free labor and is more interested in his own self-aggrandizement than anyone’s enlightenment. That was enough.
IMO he’s not worth giving your life over to either serve him or destroy him. He’s not worth wasting one’s youth or one sunny day at the beach. Does this mean that I am discouraging digging up dirt on the man? Does it make me a cult apologist? NO! IMO it can be done without ruining your financial, physical, or mental health over it. The same results can be achieved without devastating your personal lives unnecessarily.
Jagad Guru’s only concern was for his own narcissistic needs. So much so that he would visit his ill mother on his own “Appearance Day” (birthday) and give her left-over garlands given to him by his followers for his own “guru puja” (guru worship). Instead of visiting her on [i:1b8643b9ed]her[/i:1b8643b9ed] birthday and buy [i:1b8643b9ed]her[/i:1b8643b9ed] flowers, he was deluded enough into believing he would be her savior. His Chinese wife would bring her food that she did not like or could not eat rather than find out what she would like or could eat. So wrapped up in themselves they were as she lay dying. His own father could only contact him through his secretary. His father writes gratefully about how CB and his congregants purchased a whole row of seats so his mom could lay down on a flight to get treatment on the mainland. Didn’t his father know that his “magnanimous” son rode around in private jets and was a millionaire!? These incidents are written about in his father’s book “Barbara”.
No one on this forum speaks for all ex-followers of this charlatan Siddhaswarupananda, nor has everyone shared the same experiences or points of view. While I applaud some efforts, I am allowed to disagree with some of the methods and conclusions. IMO Jagad Guru is not worth losing your youth over.
I have no confusion about my tenure in the group. The twenty year assumption was made incorrectly.
Is the Science of Identity Foundation a cult? Yes, it is a cult.
If you become involved with Siddhaswarupananda or Jagad Guru, will it dangerous? Yes. How dangerous? In what ways? It’s laid out on over a hundred pages of Rick Ross’s forum. How did it get that way? In what way is it dangerous? Did every one share a common experience? These are the fine and defining lines. One stroke will make it appear as it was not. Another will bring it into focus. Still another will obscure the subtle lines. Every cult has similarities. This cult has its own peculiarities and history like no other (IMO).
Does the Science of Identity Foundation aggressively go out of their way to obliterate opposing views on the internet? Obviously. Google front page has progressively become a battle ground. This has been well covered on this forum.
Do we really know how far Jagad Guru will go to protect his cult? I don’t know. But I knew enough years ago to motivate me to leave, without the toe nail eating or putting bags on people’s heads. I just realized that he was a con man and a fraud who accepted volunteer, free labor and is more interested in his own self-aggrandizement than anyone’s enlightenment. That was enough.
IMO he’s not worth giving your life over to either serve him or destroy him. He’s not worth wasting one’s youth or one sunny day at the beach. Does this mean that I am discouraging digging up dirt on the man? Does it make me a cult apologist? NO! IMO it can be done without ruining your financial, physical, or mental health over it. The same results can be achieved without devastating your personal lives unnecessarily.
Jagad Guru’s only concern was for his own narcissistic needs. So much so that he would visit his ill mother on his own “Appearance Day” (birthday) and give her left-over garlands given to him by his followers for his own “guru puja” (guru worship). Instead of visiting her on [i:1b8643b9ed]her[/i:1b8643b9ed] birthday and buy [i:1b8643b9ed]her[/i:1b8643b9ed] flowers, he was deluded enough into believing he would be her savior. His Chinese wife would bring her food that she did not like or could not eat rather than find out what she would like or could eat. So wrapped up in themselves they were as she lay dying. His own father could only contact him through his secretary. His father writes gratefully about how CB and his congregants purchased a whole row of seats so his mom could lay down on a flight to get treatment on the mainland. Didn’t his father know that his “magnanimous” son rode around in private jets and was a millionaire!? These incidents are written about in his father’s book “Barbara”.
No one on this forum speaks for all ex-followers of this charlatan Siddhaswarupananda, nor has everyone shared the same experiences or points of view. While I applaud some efforts, I am allowed to disagree with some of the methods and conclusions. IMO Jagad Guru is not worth losing your youth over.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: May 31, 2007 05:15AM
It's kind of funny how Cara was accusing you of being a deceptive force on this thread attempting to discredit her long before it was pointed out that you were on this thread attempting to suggest that brainwashing doesn't really exist. Long before your attempt to discredit Rick Ross by comparing him to a "witch hunter".
Feeling out your way to see how much you can minimize the cults culpabitlity before meeting serious opposition.
You were the blurring "grey" the clear black and whites of this cult as you admit above and you have also admitted that you 20 year old experience is not a valid measuring stick but you certainly have wished to be the guiding light on this thread. Not conducting research whist trying your best to convince Cara not to post what she found. Acting draconian by sitting in the background "crying" this is how it should be done while you yourself are not doing anything. With your latest "best intentions" that people shouldnt waste their youth researching SIF.
Well guess what now you have posted over 300 hundred posts half of which is wandering dribble. You've chased away Rama and others who were the most vocal against SIF (who by [u:576c28ec14]your own words[/u:576c28ec14] would have much more validity to post here with your 20 year old memories) and now Cara no longer wishes answer to your constant serious allegations about her which I have now requested you to provide evidence of three times and you have not been able to produce.
Now you state that after not conducting research that you have been in possession of a book for months which has evidence against Butler which you have not bothered to share with others.
When it has been pointed out that your stories do not match up you have either shut up or not responded so questions of whether you have even told the truth on many occasions is still highly doubtful.
This recent quote is your purpose for being here. Thou protesteth way too much Zelig.
You said to Rick as Initiate that there was a repeating pattern on this thread and it seems to be you. One day the cult is "damaging" note the continued change of this word from "destructive" to keep SIF out of that category.
Now I believe that you have caused enough damage to the credibility of this thread, and made people feel uncomfortable enough, with your ever-changing stories and stances that your time here is up and my recommendation is that your presence here is canned so we may [b:576c28ec14]try[/b:576c28ec14] to convince Cara to come back to posting real and supported evidence on SIF without your bullshit.
Please can him RR.
Feeling out your way to see how much you can minimize the cults culpabitlity before meeting serious opposition.
You were the blurring "grey" the clear black and whites of this cult as you admit above and you have also admitted that you 20 year old experience is not a valid measuring stick but you certainly have wished to be the guiding light on this thread. Not conducting research whist trying your best to convince Cara not to post what she found. Acting draconian by sitting in the background "crying" this is how it should be done while you yourself are not doing anything. With your latest "best intentions" that people shouldnt waste their youth researching SIF.
Well guess what now you have posted over 300 hundred posts half of which is wandering dribble. You've chased away Rama and others who were the most vocal against SIF (who by [u:576c28ec14]your own words[/u:576c28ec14] would have much more validity to post here with your 20 year old memories) and now Cara no longer wishes answer to your constant serious allegations about her which I have now requested you to provide evidence of three times and you have not been able to produce.
Now you state that after not conducting research that you have been in possession of a book for months which has evidence against Butler which you have not bothered to share with others.
When it has been pointed out that your stories do not match up you have either shut up or not responded so questions of whether you have even told the truth on many occasions is still highly doubtful.
Quote
The bottom line for me has always been to tell the truth about my experiences without exaggeration or embellishment and face up to the fact that it was what it was; for better or worse. Everyone’s experiences have been different. My own familiarity with this group was never totally good, nor totally bad, but bad enough for me to split and obviously much worse for others. I hated the way “Jagad Guru” treated people and that was just “another brick in the wall”.
This recent quote is your purpose for being here. Thou protesteth way too much Zelig.
You said to Rick as Initiate that there was a repeating pattern on this thread and it seems to be you. One day the cult is "damaging" note the continued change of this word from "destructive" to keep SIF out of that category.
Now I believe that you have caused enough damage to the credibility of this thread, and made people feel uncomfortable enough, with your ever-changing stories and stances that your time here is up and my recommendation is that your presence here is canned so we may [b:576c28ec14]try[/b:576c28ec14] to convince Cara to come back to posting real and supported evidence on SIF without your bullshit.
Please can him RR.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: May 31, 2007 06:26AM
In April I received a formal letter via email from Radha Krishna das which led to me having several telephone conversations with him including one in which I induged him for two hours as to what the hell I am doing and the reasons that I have for doing it. I am not fond of RKd on account of him being the reason that my spiritaul life and heart were broken and because this contact which scored me several conversations and emails with Brendon the grand total of which was simply more evidence that SoI is a destructive cult that through various methods of co-ercion exerts control over most aspects of followers lives. I will never ever accept that decisions were made by those whose two lives were affected.
I took myself back to the Gold Coast - the base of SoI in Australia partly for research and groundwork orchestrating an organised effort against the cult and partly because I had to see what would they would do to me - ever watched a really bad movie where you've already guessed who the killer was in the first half hour but you still cant turn it off? That was my life up until a month ago. The girl that everyone assumed was crazy because when she led them to the mutilated corpses someone had come along and cleaned up the scene got the final dramatic confrontation and walked off down the highway as the credits rolled to plan the upcoming sequel.
I bring up this contact with RKd because I want to illustrate how what Zelig has done is a victory for SoI that will only further bind the believers and the blinded to Siddha and has effectively destroyed any positive effect of every effort by every genuine person here to date to reach those who are still within the cult.
The reasoning straight from the guru's mouth piece is that those who criticise Siddha do so because they are envious. The envious participants in this criticism of their guru are creating (according to RKd although I dont believe it) genuine concern with Siddha and his disciples about them leading others into their non-belief and atheism.
Enviousness is a recurrent theme in the teachings of ACB and Siddha derived from the Vedic scriptures that those who seek spiritual advancement as some sort of prize, who missed the part about being lower than the straw in the street are perpetrators of maya-vadi, illusionary philosophy, thinking of themselves as in control of their own spiritual advancement or salvation rather than deferring to Krishna as the supreme authority and knowing this can only be attained through his mercy. In simple terms those who had aspirations for themselves which were not met by their expectations of involvement with Siddha. Observing those who they are assured by their guru and philosophy who are envious only re-inforces the self righteous and superior attitude of devotees and lets them continue to believe that the outside world is a bad and scary place which they want no part of.
Now again straight from the guru's mouth piece what I was told was that they would be willing to explain the situation to me and answer the questions I have continually posed to SoI but that this would not be done publically because the decision had been made that I personally could have the truth on condition that I withdraw any and all criticism of SoI accept chastisement and go back to my spiritual life and be one of them who would not let anyone in on the secrets they dont want to disclose in any public forum. To have my integrity attacked especially by individuals who have made their own lack thereof abundantly clear is as I have already alluded to particularly hurtful since I was in effect offerred the opportunity to have what I had taken from me, the taking of which was the start of my own crusade returned. If I gave names of who was helping me RKd said then he could explain to me exactly why they were doing what they were doing so that I could see the truth (according to Siddha anyway). I gave none. The revised deal was if I would satisfactorily repent - ie - shut up then I could at least have the relationship back - I did not. That is all I have to offer regarding my own integrity.
Strangely though RKd was telling the truth about the enviousness because that is precisely what has been at play here. What we have is three rogue followers who want to buy their enlightenment at the expense of others. In a way you cant really wonder why they are like this since it is exactly what Siddha himself did through his farcial surrender to ACB and continual conflicts with ISKCON. Even more strangely Siddha was right when he said that Canada is no good now and the US should go and take it over although in that lecture he was referring to their policy of treating homosexuals as fellow members of the human race and not realising where the theological anti cult movement aimed directly at him is based. There is indeed no shortage of stories about SoI.
I took myself back to the Gold Coast - the base of SoI in Australia partly for research and groundwork orchestrating an organised effort against the cult and partly because I had to see what would they would do to me - ever watched a really bad movie where you've already guessed who the killer was in the first half hour but you still cant turn it off? That was my life up until a month ago. The girl that everyone assumed was crazy because when she led them to the mutilated corpses someone had come along and cleaned up the scene got the final dramatic confrontation and walked off down the highway as the credits rolled to plan the upcoming sequel.
I bring up this contact with RKd because I want to illustrate how what Zelig has done is a victory for SoI that will only further bind the believers and the blinded to Siddha and has effectively destroyed any positive effect of every effort by every genuine person here to date to reach those who are still within the cult.
The reasoning straight from the guru's mouth piece is that those who criticise Siddha do so because they are envious. The envious participants in this criticism of their guru are creating (according to RKd although I dont believe it) genuine concern with Siddha and his disciples about them leading others into their non-belief and atheism.
Enviousness is a recurrent theme in the teachings of ACB and Siddha derived from the Vedic scriptures that those who seek spiritual advancement as some sort of prize, who missed the part about being lower than the straw in the street are perpetrators of maya-vadi, illusionary philosophy, thinking of themselves as in control of their own spiritual advancement or salvation rather than deferring to Krishna as the supreme authority and knowing this can only be attained through his mercy. In simple terms those who had aspirations for themselves which were not met by their expectations of involvement with Siddha. Observing those who they are assured by their guru and philosophy who are envious only re-inforces the self righteous and superior attitude of devotees and lets them continue to believe that the outside world is a bad and scary place which they want no part of.
Now again straight from the guru's mouth piece what I was told was that they would be willing to explain the situation to me and answer the questions I have continually posed to SoI but that this would not be done publically because the decision had been made that I personally could have the truth on condition that I withdraw any and all criticism of SoI accept chastisement and go back to my spiritual life and be one of them who would not let anyone in on the secrets they dont want to disclose in any public forum. To have my integrity attacked especially by individuals who have made their own lack thereof abundantly clear is as I have already alluded to particularly hurtful since I was in effect offerred the opportunity to have what I had taken from me, the taking of which was the start of my own crusade returned. If I gave names of who was helping me RKd said then he could explain to me exactly why they were doing what they were doing so that I could see the truth (according to Siddha anyway). I gave none. The revised deal was if I would satisfactorily repent - ie - shut up then I could at least have the relationship back - I did not. That is all I have to offer regarding my own integrity.
Strangely though RKd was telling the truth about the enviousness because that is precisely what has been at play here. What we have is three rogue followers who want to buy their enlightenment at the expense of others. In a way you cant really wonder why they are like this since it is exactly what Siddha himself did through his farcial surrender to ACB and continual conflicts with ISKCON. Even more strangely Siddha was right when he said that Canada is no good now and the US should go and take it over although in that lecture he was referring to their policy of treating homosexuals as fellow members of the human race and not realising where the theological anti cult movement aimed directly at him is based. There is indeed no shortage of stories about SoI.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: May 31, 2007 06:40AM
Getting back on topic...
A long time ago I told the story of how
Siddhaswarupananda gave the instruction that
the children at the gurukulu school should not be
allowed to have skateboards
However, I now remember that he said
it was okay for Mike Gabbard's boy to
have a tennis racquet and to play tennis
becuase he could maybe become famous and make a lot of MONEY doing this
(and supposedly donate the large amounts of cash over to HIMSELF!)
However, history has shown that more young boys
have made money and fame with their skate boards
than with tennis racquets...!
Another bad prediction, I suppose,
along with the Y2K bug, avian flu and Betamax tapes!
:arrow: On another note, as Rodney King said, when Los Angeles was burning:
"Can we all just get along?"[/color:719a6af03e]
:D :)
Dylan said: The Lone Ranger and Tonto
were riding down the line
fixing everybody's problems,
everybody's except mine
Somebody must have told them I was doing fine[/color:719a6af03e].[/size:719a6af03e]
:?
A long time ago I told the story of how
Siddhaswarupananda gave the instruction that
the children at the gurukulu school should not be
allowed to have skateboards
However, I now remember that he said
it was okay for Mike Gabbard's boy to
have a tennis racquet and to play tennis
becuase he could maybe become famous and make a lot of MONEY doing this
(and supposedly donate the large amounts of cash over to HIMSELF!)
However, history has shown that more young boys
have made money and fame with their skate boards
than with tennis racquets...!
Another bad prediction, I suppose,
along with the Y2K bug, avian flu and Betamax tapes!
:arrow: On another note, as Rodney King said, when Los Angeles was burning:
"Can we all just get along?"[/color:719a6af03e]
:D :)
Dylan said: The Lone Ranger and Tonto
were riding down the line
fixing everybody's problems,
everybody's except mine
Somebody must have told them I was doing fine[/color:719a6af03e].[/size:719a6af03e]
:?
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 31, 2007 07:43AM
To who it may concern:
"Zelig" has been exposed as a fraud and an apologist for Chris Butler.
No one should regard his posts as either objective or accept them without question as factual.
Zelig is a proven fraud and liar, by his own admission.
FYI--this thread seems unusually prone to "Internet Trolls" attempting to subvert it through lies, false identities and pretenses.
Perhaps that means Mr. Butler and his associates have come to fear the freedom of expression possible through the Internet?
Otherwise, why would they spend so much time and effort trying to subvert it?
"Zelig" has been exposed as a fraud and an apologist for Chris Butler.
No one should regard his posts as either objective or accept them without question as factual.
Zelig is a proven fraud and liar, by his own admission.
FYI--this thread seems unusually prone to "Internet Trolls" attempting to subvert it through lies, false identities and pretenses.
Perhaps that means Mr. Butler and his associates have come to fear the freedom of expression possible through the Internet?
Otherwise, why would they spend so much time and effort trying to subvert it?
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.